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View Full Version : AAR EAG Carbine Dane County WI 14-16May 2007



Pat_Rogers
05-17-07, 07:25
AAR Dane County 2007

EAG returned to the land of rain and cheese for another Carbine Operators Course. As has been the case, Pat Kelly and Rob Richardson and the Dane County SO hosted another interesting and productive class.
WX was typical, with rain, hot sun and high winds. Fortunately the really bad WX held off until we were leaving the range on TD3 when a hail/ T-storm passed through.
The overall quality of the class was high. The fact that this has been a trend for me makes me wonder if we aren’t going to get a whole class of Zero’s down the line (grrrrr…)

Equipment issues were relatively minor, though aggravating.
While optics are dominating the market, the quality of the mount has to match that of the optic. In one case a shooter had his EOTech mounted on a gooseneck mount (fixed carry handle). There was barely enough negative elevation on the optic to get it on paper. The mount was not up to the task (Note- NEVER EVER buy any optical mounts from Sportsmans Guide or Cheaper Than Dirt……)
The shooter believed that copious application to Loctite would solve the shaky/ loose problem.
It did, sorta’, but the lock nut (clearly made from recycled cell phones, another Chinese plot to take over the world) cracked after one magazine worth of shooting.
Another shooter lost his EOTech when the crossbolt came loose (the one they advise not to Loctite) and caused the optic to depart the UMP. Unfortunately for this shooter, he was the only one in the class not to realize it, and therefore made for a Very Special Moment as it was retuned to him….
We had two M4’s (real ones) that were problematic for the class. One needed bolt rings (note to self- placing the bolt face down on a table and allowing the weight of the carrier to press down is a more accurate method of determining bolt ring wear), but still had cycling issues. We put a new BCG in the other, but both cops used my guns (a Defensive Edge SLR and a S&W M&PT). After the class ended we found that both ran with M855, but neither would run with the loose ammo they brought with them (grrr…).
Ammo continues to be a problem (both in quantity and quality). Two shooters from one agency brought UMP’s because they had no 5.56 ammo for them to train with.
One UMP went down, primarily to age and dirt. Mike caused it to be reanimated in short order.
The P-Mags continue to work as advertised. An AAR on them would be boring. (Loaded 30 rounds. Shot same. Repeated as necessary.)
A special note of admiration to the 3 Dane County SWAT Deputies- Pat, Rob and Sabrina, who ran the course in full kit. Also thanks to the range staff for their cooperation.
Pat invited us over to his house for a cook out. His lovely wife and children (and dog) kept us entertained- especially when his daughter managed to cook his CamelBak in the toaster oven. This made for another Very Special Moment at the end of the class when he received a new one (among other things…)
One noteable MIA was Pat Harvath, who wussed out due to an eye infection. We airdropped some industrial strength Vagisil to him to soothe his libido.
Kudos to Mike Hueser for continuing to keep me on track and performing minor surgery on a wide variety of guns and gear.
Kudos also to Paul Buffoni of BCM fame for not only being High Shooter (a substantial task considering the crew) but also for working on students guns at night and providing a bewildering amount of gear for the class to fondle and use. Paul is a class act, and I wish that a lot of others in this business had his ethics and sense of honor.
Special thanks to Viking Tactics, CamelBak, Larue Tactical, Eagle, EOTech, and Aimpoint for their continued support.

TOrrock
05-17-07, 07:30
Thanks for the excellent report Pat.

If you had to use a gooseneck mount, which one would you go with Pat? I have a 6520 I've been thinking about mounting an Aimpoint to.

Thanks!

Jay Cunningham
05-17-07, 07:39
Thanks for the AAR, Pat.

As far as that "class of Zero’s down the line," I wouldn't hold your breath. With the highly informative SWAT magazine articles and more specialized forums such as this one, the word has gotten out to serious-minded people about what they should bring and how they should conduct themselves in one of your classes.

Believe it or not, window-licking can be cured.

Pat_Rogers
05-17-07, 07:55
Templar- sorry, can't help you there. We see very few A2 uppers in my classes, and fewer optics mounted on them. I only know that this one really sucked...

Thekatar- I'd like to think that, but some cold hearted zilch is always waiting for a chance to strike.

I have become a lot less tolerant of no loads though. You wind up spending 90% of your time trying to keep one clown functional, and it isn't fair to the others in the class.

Heavy Metal
05-18-07, 15:15
Pat,

Are PMAGS good to go with a full thirty? I ask because I just made Grant a more successful businessman and am waiting on them to roll in.

subzero
05-18-07, 16:10
Ammo continues to be a problem (both in quantity and quality). Two shooters from one agency brought UMP’s because they had no 5.56 ammo for them to train with.

Things are tough all over. Who thought we'd be pining for the days of two dollar gasoline and Q3131A everywhere at 200 a case?

Pat_Rogers
05-18-07, 18:25
Heavy Metal- Roger, GTG with 30 rds. Don't try to force 31.

Sub zero- Q3131A, at any price, is not worth it. It is imported trash, and in the long term you are playing with fire.

FJB
05-19-07, 16:54
Thanks for the excellent report Pat.

If you had to use a gooseneck mount, which one would you go with Pat? I have a 6520 I've been thinking about mounting an Aimpoint to.

Thanks!

Templar,
Aimpoint makes a solid gooseneck, official name is AR15/AR16 Fixed Carry Handle Adaptor # 10174. However, you'll need to use the Aimpoint QRP mount for it.

A very solid gooseneck that is Weaver compatible, is one that Bennie Coolie had made/endorsed, BC-Cam Optical Sight Mount http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=5037&title=AR-15+BC-CAM+OPTICAL+SIGHT+MOUNT
Older LaRue Tactical Aimpoint mounts worked with it, but not sure about the new ones. Their 30mm QD LT-123 mount might work.

Anyway, I have BC-Cam that has gone through two Gunsite 223 classs and a tour in Iraq (day, night, in and out of vehicles repeatedly lots of hard use - bumping against hard objects) with no issues. I no longer need it as I have all flat tops now. PM me if interested.

S/F

rhino
05-19-07, 20:05
A very solid gooseneck that is Weaver compatible, is one that Bennie Coolie had made/endorsed, BC-Cam Optical Sight Mount http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=5037&title=AR-15+BC-CAM+OPTICAL+SIGHT+MOUNT


I'll second the recommendation for the BC-CAM mount. I had one on my Bushmaster with a fixed carry handle to mount an EOTech and it worked nicely. The cool thing about it (other than it being rock solid) is that the mount is adjustable for height. I had it as low as it would go without touching the handguard with my EOTech and it was a piece of cake to get and keep a proper Santose IBZ-type zero with it. It went through a lot of 3-gun matches and a Gunsite 123 3-day carbine class with no problems, and I did quite a bit of rapid fire when I had the chance. ;)

It went with the upper to its new home, so I expect that it's working nicely with whatever red dot he chooses.

TOrrock
05-19-07, 20:58
Thanks guys for the recommendations.

I didn't mean to hijack Pat's thread, so back to discussing the class.

Pat_Rogers
05-20-07, 07:39
Not a hijack at all. Gear is what most people fixate upon because it is necessary; is relatively easy; and requires little time to acquire.
There is also a tremendous amount of self satisfaction associated with the entire gear issue.

Compared to physical fitness; a healthy lifestyle; performing under stress for (relatively) long periods of time; situational awareness, and a host of other things, gear is relatively simple.
All of it is required of course, and all of it is necessary to function in the environment.
There is a lot of good information passed along in these threads, along with some agenda pushing. Seperating the wheat from the chaff is a learned skill set...