View Full Version : Which Twist Rate
fivefivesix
05-19-10, 12:33
im in the market to replace my barrel. i have no idea what twist rate my barrel is. i shoot whatever i can get. 55 gr to 69 nato. i dont shoot matches with this gun and dont hunt. just defense and target practice. what would be the best twist reate for me. middle of the road 1in8? is there a certain bullet weight for a certain twist.
55 to 69 for a 1 in 9 etc
thanks for any help jason
Thomas M-4
05-19-10, 12:52
1/7 Twist rate is what I use I can shoot 55 grain up all the way to 77 smk.
1/7 is the only twist anyone needs. everybody has their own theories/thinking on these things, but the fact remains. 1/7s will stabilize 45gr HPs, all the way up to 80gr SMK.
fivefivesix
05-19-10, 13:04
awesome 1 in 7 it is thanks you guys are the best
I've got both and the 1/8's are a J&T bull barrel and one is a Lilja. They are literal tack drivers with lots of the "surplus" ammo I have fired through them. Haven't fired the Lilja barrel much as I just recieved it several days ago but the J&T barrel will shoot well under an inch.
What ever one you get a good deal on should be sufficient for your stated use.
WW
im in the market to replace my barrel. i have no idea what twist rate my barrel is. i shoot whatever i can get. 55 gr to 69 nato. i dont shoot matches with this gun and dont hunt. just defense and target practice. what would be the best twist reate for me. middle of the road 1in8? is there a certain bullet weight for a certain twist.
55 to 69 for a 1 in 9 etc
thanks for any help jason
1/8 and 1/7 are the two best options. I would stay away from 1/9 twist rate.
C4
1/7 is the only twist anyone needs. everybody has their own theories/thinking on these things, but the fact remains. 1/7s will stabilize 45gr HPs, all the way up to 80gr SMK.
FACT. I've owned 1/7, 1/8, and 1/9. The 1/9s were subpar for various reasons. 1/8 was fine, but I stopped using the rifle for a long time and got rid of it. 1/7 will shoot anything you feed it, usually more accurately than you.
Anyone who tells you that 1/9 is fine, is just trying to justify to their self, that it was ok to purchase a subpar piece of kit.
If there were any real merit to the 1/9 twist rate, more high end makers would be using it.
We are talking about a 16" barrel, right?
Magic_Salad0892
05-26-10, 06:22
1:7'' would be ideal.
However, a 20'' HBAR with a 1:9'' twist, is pretty damn accurate with 55 gr. rounds.
BTW: Who makes 80 gr. SMK? Does the extra 3 gr. make a difference?
i use 1/9 and 1/7 for 99% of what i do. if you are going to replace a barrel then i would go with 1/7 as it give you the option of useing a wider range of ammo say 55gr- 77gr. if you choose to.
jmho
Robb Jensen
05-26-10, 07:17
I agree with Grant. 1x8 and 1x7 are the only twist rates needed. 1x9 is just useless IMHO.
I like 1x8 for match barrels for maximum velocity with heavy 75-77gr rounds. 1x7 will work with them too but the push a little slower.
1x7 chrome-lined for my training/defensive guns.
The more twist the more accurate the heavier rounds will be. If you're not sure what you'll be shooting go 1/7, you can shoot pretty much any gr round you desire. 1/9 you're limited at around 62gr.
My current rifle has a 1/9 hbar. But I shoot 62gr and nothing else through it. If I wanted to shoot a match round I wouldn't have much success at accuracy at any kind of range.
So in closing, as everyone has pointed out, 1/7 ;)
The more twist the more accurate the heavier rounds will be.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the length of the round is the determining factor for choosing twist. Yes, longer rounds are heavier, but I believe length is the key factor.
Robb Jensen
05-26-10, 11:22
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the length of the round is the determining factor for choosing twist. Yes, longer rounds are heavier, but I believe length is the key factor.
Yes it's a projectile length issue.
64gr M856 tracer is longer than even 77gr MK262 and thus the 1x7 was needed in the M249/Minimi to stabilize the tracer round.
kaiservontexas
05-26-10, 12:40
I also agree 1/7 and 1/8. I got a 1/8 and a 1/9. The 1/8 is much better, and eventually the upper with the 1/9 (things bought before knowing any better) will have a new upper with a 1/7 or 1/8.
I will shoot 75 grain TAP for defense. Haven't had to defend myself yet, hopefully never, but the 1/9 does not like it (great for 55-62 grain stuff though.) I keep shooting up my 62 grain stuff and restocking with Hornady 75 grain TAP/Match ammo. Eventually that 1/9 will have to go just because of ammo load. As I get into reloading I will still be using something in the 75 grain range to mimic the match ammo.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the length of the round is the determining factor for choosing twist. Yes, longer rounds are heavier, but I believe length is the key factor.
Length of the projectile and velocity
1-7 .
only way to fly ! :)
my somewhat/mutt/SP-1/clone .... loves hornady 75 grainers,
a tack driver.
peabody
ca_fireman19
06-08-10, 04:00
1/7 is the only twist anyone needs. everybody has their own theories/thinking on these things, but the fact remains. 1/7s will stabilize 45gr HPs, all the way up to 80gr SMK.
go with the 1:7
ChicagoTex
06-08-10, 04:31
1x9 is just useless IMHO.
Would you clarify for me, sir, as a man of significantly more experience than I, what you precisely mean by "useless".
Do you mean "useless" in the sense of "There's nothing a 1/9 can't do that a 1/7 or 1/8 can do just as well, if not better, and those twists support heavier bullet weights therefore when you have a choice, there's no reason to choose 1/9".
Or do you mean "useless" in the sense of "even when using bullets within a 1/9 barrel's usable range (generally believed to be 55 to 69gr IIRC) there is something inherent about the 1/9 twist that compromises accuracy and/or performance".
I ask because I am a member of the "I wound up with a Bushmaster because I got an amazing deal on it and went about fixing most of it's problems, but I'm still tied to this 1/9" barrel" club (long name I know :p) and wish to know if I'm as okay with my BM with it's proper bolt, extractor, receiver extension, staking, feedramps and lower parts kit as I believed (accepting that bullet weights over 69gr are inappropriate for my barrel).
Robb Jensen
06-08-10, 06:34
Would you clarify for me, sir, as a man of significantly more experience than I, what you precisely mean by "useless".
My definition of useless which is the same as Dictionary.coms definition: use·less
–adjective
1. of no use; not serving the purpose or any purpose; unavailing or futile: It is useless to reason with him.
2. without useful qualities; of no practical good: a useless person; a useless gadget.
.223 Rem and 5.56mm ammo I currently own:
LC M855 62gr
Prvi M855 62gr
Prvi 75gr MATCH
BH Mk262 Mod 1 77gr
BH red box 77gr MATCH
Hornady TAP 75gr
Hornady TAP 60gr
LC/Federal M856 tracer
BH 73gr Berger MATCH
Fed/American Eagle 55gr FMJ
Fiocchi 55gr
PMC Bronze 55gr
Guatamalan 55gr M192
Federal XM193
Prvi 62gr FMJ
BH 69gr MATCH
BH 68gr MATCH
Some kind of Frang, I can't remember who it's made by.
I own 3 SBRs, one 10.5", one 12.5" and one 14.5", two 16" midlength 3 gun rifles. All have either 1x7 or 1x8 twist. All but the two stainless barrelled 1x8 guns are shot suppressed from time to time. One of the 1x8 guns is my 3gun rifle and the other is my wifes Project Featherweight rifle (has perm. installed PWS FSC556 comp to make it a 16" barrel).
IMHO if I can't use all the various types of ammo in the various types of guns I own and shoot them suppressed without worry of a baffle strike then I'd consider the barrel useless. Last year a friend of mine was shooting his 10.5" 1x9 twist SBR with his AAC M4-1000 attached, not paying attention he fired some red box BH 77gr MATCH ammo it in and after a few rounds had a nice hole is the side of his suppressors end baffle and his rifle got a hole lot 'louder'. So he ended up having to get a replacement suppressor, AAC sold it to him for half of retail and he had to pay a new $200 tax on the new suppressor (new serial number). So he made roughly a $500 and a few months of NFA paperwork because he wasn't paying attention because he had a useless barrel.
With all my ammo in all my guns I know for damn sure than any of the guns I have can and will stabilize any ammo be it .223 Rem or 5.56mm NATO ammo which is made that will fit into the magazines.
But the better question is why 1x9?
In theory it's more accurate than 1x7 when using 50gr to about 69gr which is true for the long range stuff at Camp Perry this was true 15-20yrs ago when people used 68gr and 69gr a lot and used 1x9 twist barrels. But then came 73gr Bergers, 75gr Hornady and 77gr Sierra Matchkings and out came 1x7 and 1x8 twist barrels it does so well there that it dominates Hi-power rifle even kicking the asses of .308 and .30-06 in service rifle.
But here in the real world not the theory world I've seen many a 1x7 chrome lined barrel out shoot 1x9 barrels more than a few times. My BCM hammer forged (BFH) 14.5" chrome lined midlength shoots well under 1" using BH 77gr MATCH, BH Mk262 Mod 1 and Prvi 75gr match as well as BH 68gr Hornady and BH 69gr Sierra Matchkings. With PMC 55gr it's shooting .58" 5 shot groups at 100yds.
Summary: If I can't take any of my ammo and shoot it at 200, 300, 400 or 500yds and know damn sure it'll stabilize the bullet and it'll actually fly true out to those distances or that I load up a magazine with any ammo I have on hand and shoot my SBRs with an attached sound suppressor and fire away and not have to worry about baffle strikes....If I can't do either of those things because the twist rate isn't fast enough in my barrel then that barrel is useless.
1/7 all around, but 1/9 is not useless! I have 3 Colts in 1/7and a LMT in 1/7 twist but my Colt Tactical in 1/9 shoots real fine. The Tactical shoots Fed Gold Medal Sierra Match BTHP like no other so I wouldn't call it useless.
Robb Jensen
06-08-10, 07:05
1/7 all around, but 1/9 is not useless! I have 3 Colts in 1/7and a LMT in 1/7 twist but my Colt Tactical in 1/9 shoots real fine. The Tactical shoots Fed Gold Medal Sierra Match BTHP like no other so I wouldn't call it useless.
How does that study group of one 1x9 barrel shoot 77gr Sierra Matchkings suppressed? Would you risk a $1K sound suppressor on it?
ChicagoTex
06-08-10, 08:42
Thank you for your ample clarification.
GermanSynergy
06-08-10, 09:20
1:7 Chrome lined bore/chamber for all training/defence purposes.
Belmont31R
06-08-10, 10:56
1:7'' would be ideal.
However, a 20'' HBAR with a 1:9'' twist, is pretty damn accurate with 55 gr. rounds.
BTW: Who makes 80 gr. SMK? Does the extra 3 gr. make a difference?
SMK=Sierra Match King
Belmont31R
06-08-10, 10:59
How does that study group of one 1x9 barrel shoot 77gr Sierra Matchkings suppressed? Would you risk a $1K sound suppressor on it?
Federal makes a GMM in both 69, and 77 grain. If he is using 69 grain it may stabilize in a Colt 1x9 barrel.
Robb Jensen
06-08-10, 11:13
Federal makes a GMM in both 69, and 77 grain. If he is using 69 grain it may stabilize in a Colt 1x9 barrel.
I'm sure it would in a 1x9, but my 73-77gr stuff wouldn't and would be very scary with a suppressor hence my finding 1x9 useless.
1/9 is nothing more than less capable.. and reduced capability is gay.
I'm sure it would in a 1x9, but my 73-77gr stuff wouldn't and would be very scary with a suppressor hence my finding 1x9 useless.
Right.
I can also state (with confidence) that a 10.5", 1/7 twist barrel with a SF K Can WILL shoot 52gr Frang ammo (with no baffle contact). ;)
C4
Belmont31R
06-08-10, 11:32
I'm sure it would in a 1x9, but my 73-77gr stuff wouldn't and would be very scary with a suppressor hence my finding 1x9 useless.
I agree with 1x9 being a poor twist rate but just wanted to point out he could have been shooting a round that stabilized in his barrel.
All my stuff is 1x7 except for my Stealth which is 1x8.
GotM4- why do you think that 1/8 has not become a more popular choice?
How about 18" intermediate gas barrels- do you foresee more of these coming down the pike?
Seems like the USMC could really benefit from an 18" barrel on their A4s, combined with a Emod stock.
I have one in 1-8 and a Wylde chamber. It is probably my most accurate AR.
I'm sure it would in a 1x9, but my 73-77gr stuff wouldn't and would be very scary with a suppressor hence my finding 1x9 useless.
Most people who purchase a 1:9 barrel know that they can't shoot the heavier rounds in it. But does it truly make a barrel useless? I'm sure if someone kicked in my front door and I popped him full of 55GR holes from a 1:9 twist barrel.. He would feel it just the same as someone who kicked in my front door and I popped him full of 77GR holes from a 1:7 twist barrel. They would both have exactly the same outcome. One dead bad guy.
So to say they are useless, I don't think it's an accurate statement. Maybe it's useless to you. But not for everyone.
But I will say after what I have learned over the last couple days, I will probably be purchasing a barrel from a better manufacturer here in the near future.
Robb Jensen
06-08-10, 13:12
Most people who purchase a 1:9 barrel know that they can't shoot the heavier rounds in it. But does it truly make a barrel useless? I'm sure if someone kicked in my front door and I popped him full of 55GR holes from a 1:9 twist barrel.. He would feel it just the same as someone who kicked in my front door and I popped him full of 77GR holes from a 1:7 twist barrel. They would both have exactly the same outcome. One dead bad guy.
So to say they are useless, I don't think it's an accurate statement. Maybe it's useless to you. But not for everyone.
But I will say after what I have learned over the last couple days, I will probably be purchasing a barrel from a better manufacturer here in the near future.
You are correct but why limit one self?
They are useless to me and could be a liability.
Most people who purchase a 1:9 barrel know that they can't shoot the heavier rounds in it. But does it truly make a barrel useless? I'm sure if someone kicked in my front door and I popped him full of 55GR holes from a 1:9 twist barrel.. He would feel it just the same as someone who kicked in my front door and I popped him full of 77GR holes from a 1:7 twist barrel. They would both have exactly the same outcome. One dead bad guy.
Useless depends on what you want to do with the gun. If you are into shooting dirt, then no. If you want the most effective fighting gun, then the heavier grain ammo out of a 1/7 twist gun is the way to go.
So to say they are useless, I don't think it's an accurate statement. Maybe it's useless to you. But not for everyone.
But I will say after what I have learned over the last couple days, I will probably be purchasing a barrel from a better manufacturer here in the near future.
1/9 twist guns are useless to me. As I stated in the other thread, besides the fact that 1/9 twist guns limit ones ammo options, they have also gotten a lesser quality gun (generally speaking).
C4
Useless depends on what you want to do with the gun. If you are into shooting dirt, then no. If you want the most effective fighting gun, then the heavier grain ammo out of a 1/7 twist gun is the way to go.
1/9 twist guns are useless to me. As I stated in the other thread, besides the fact that 1/9 twist guns limit ones ammo options, they have also gotten a lesser quality gun (generally speaking).
C4
So are you really telling me, that if I were to shoot someone in self defense of my home with my 1:9 barrel. That the guy would just stand there and say wow. I'm lucky that wasn't a 1:7 twist barrel, then I would have been screwed. Seriously you really expect me to believe that.
You have already talked me into getting rid of my 1:9 barrel for a better brand 1:7 barrel, but to say the only thing it's good for is shooting dirt.. Really? Are you really saying that if I were to shoot someone with my 1:9 barrel that they would just laugh it off?
Belmont31R
06-08-10, 14:20
So are you really telling me, that if I were to shoot someone in self defense of my home with my 1:9 barrel. That the guy would just stand there and say wow. I'm lucky that wasn't a 1:7 twist barrel, then I would have been screwed. Seriously you really expect me to believe that.
You have already talked me into getting rid of my 1:9 barrel for a better brand 1:7 barrel, but to say the only thing it's good for is shooting dirt.. Really? Are you really saying that if I were to shoot someone with my 1:9 barrel that they would just laugh it off?
The best human stopper rounds in the AR are in the 70 grain range.
Thus for people who use rounds in the 70 grain range for HD/SD a 1x9 barrel is useless to them because they can't shoot that ammo.
My HD/SD round is the Mk262, and thus buying a 1x9 barrel for me would mean only shooting dirt with it.
If you shoot ammo in the upper 60's or less ONLY then 1x9 will be fine for you.
I don't think anyone made the claim shooting someone with a 1x9 barrel and sub 70 grain rounds could not kill someone. They are just not as effective over the long run as ammo in the upper 70's.
I don't think anyone made the claim shooting someone with a 1x9 barrel and sub 70 grain rounds could not kill someone. They are just not as effective over the long run as ammo in the upper 70's.
No they are just claiming that a 1x9 is completely useless for shooting anything other than dirt. So that implies that it will not kill someone. I'm seeing an awful lot of biased opinions coming out. I'm not saying that 1x9 barrels aren't junk, apparently they are. But I would never make a claim saying that they are completely useless either.
I remember not so long ago that the military used 1x11 twist rates in all of their barrels. I seem to remember them doing a lot of killing back then.
So are you really telling me, that if I were to shoot someone in self defense of my home with my 1:9 barrel. That the guy would just stand there and say wow. I'm lucky that wasn't a 1:7 twist barrel, then I would have been screwed. Seriously you really expect me to believe that.
I think you're missing the point. Its not a question of whether or not a bad guy will shrug off a stabilized from a 1/9 barrel, versus a 1/7 barrel. Over simplified.
Grant and GotM4 are trying to explain 3 basic points:
1. 1/7 twist barrels will tend to stabilize a wider range of training, varminting, and defensive ammo than 1/9's will. This translates into ammo versatility for training or varied uses.
2. Factory guns shipping with 1/7 barrels tend to have better barrel quality (and overall quality) than those that ship with 1/9's. Think Colt, LMT, BCM, etc., compared to Bushmaster, Olympic, RRA, DPMS, etc. Also look at the intended customers of those companies.
3. More and more duty/military/defensive ammo is being developed with longer, ergo heavier, bullet designs. Not being a ballistics nerd or an employee of an ammo manufacturer, all I can see is that the rounds that are being used in defense of life, property, society and country, tend to be of the 62 grain and up variety.
I think you're missing the point. Its not a question of whether or not a bad guy will shrug off a stabilized from a 1/9 barrel, versus a 1/7 barrel. Over simplified.
Grant and GotM4 are trying to explain 3 basic points:
1. 1/7 twist barrels will tend to stabilize a wider range of training, varminting, and defensive ammo than 1/9's will. This translates into ammo versatility for training or varied uses.
2. Factory guns shipping with 1/7 barrels tend to have better barrel quality (and overall quality) than those that ship with 1/9's. Think Colt, LMT, BCM, etc., compared to Bushmaster, Olympic, RRA, DPMS, etc. Also look at the intended customers of those companies.
3. More and more duty/military/defensive ammo is being developed with longer, ergo heavier, bullet designs. Not being a ballistics nerd or an employee of an ammo manufacturer, all I can see is that the rounds that are being used in defense of life, property, society and country, tend to be of the 62 grain and up variety.
Nope I'm not missing the point. I get all of that and I agree with it.
What I don't understand is a blanket statement saying it is completely useless.
I can with 100% certainty guarantee that I can kill a person with one bullet from a 45-55 GR FMJ 1x9 twist 16" AR15.
Nope I'm not missing the point. I get all of that and I agree with it.
What I don't understand is a blanket statement saying it is completely useless.
I can with 100% certainty guarantee that I can kill a person with one bullet from a 45-55 GR FMJ 1x9 twist 16" AR15.
If one limits their ammo to 75+ grain OTMs, then 1 in 9" approaches/reaches uselessness. It's a matter of perspective.
If you are willing to limit your ammo to 69 grain and less, 1 in 9" is entirely adequate from a bullet stabilization perspective. The additional previously mentioned quality attributes (proper gas port diameters, proper throat/leade dimensions) still apply.
Theoretically 1 in 8" would be equally acceptable. 1 in 8" is more of a match twist though so if you want to go this route you'd have to seek out a smith who would cut the chamber you specify (White Oak Precision, CLE, etc.). These smiths aren't into huge production, you're paying them to take their time and do the job right. And you're probably not going to get chrome lining, it would either either be a CM alloy or SS.
Belmont31R
06-08-10, 14:54
No they are just claiming that a 1x9 is completely useless for shooting anything other than dirt. So that implies that it will not kill someone. I'm seeing an awful lot of biased opinions coming out. I'm not saying that 1x9 barrels aren't junk, apparently they are. But I would never make a claim saying that they are completely useless either.
I remember not so long ago that the military used 1x11 twist rates in all of their barrels. I seem to remember them doing a lot of killing back then.
For people who use 70 grain or heavier rounds for HD or competition they are useless for anything but dirt.
Whats so hard to understand about that?
For people who use 70 grain or heavier rounds for HD or competition they are useless for anything but dirt.
Whats so hard to understand about that?
Nevermind I'm done. I don't know how many times I have to say it. I know I can't shoot anything heavier than 69GR.
But wouldn't you feel more comfortable shooting a 75 gr BTHP, designed for improved terminal effectiveness, as opposed to a much lighter jacketed round? Sure, it will do the job, but if you're using a sample size of 1 shot, you're gonna want the better bullet.
Regarding your comment about the military using 1/11 barrels, keep in mind that the military was limited to a specific, light weight round (SS109) at the time. This was likely due to NATO compatibility and sourcing concerns. Add more shooters, burst and full auto, and different ballistic objectives into the mix, and your argument is akin to comparing two types of produce. Also witness the move, even in the military, to heavier ammunition, vis a vis Mk262 and Mk318 ammunition.
See for more info on SS109 development and objectives: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS109
I agree with your point that useful and useless are terms that are dependent on the speaker's intended use. Having said that, as I've said before on this forum, look at your audience. More self defense/ammo versatility for high round count days/professional end users here.
As opposed to the "here, hold my beer while I shoot this old toaster" crowd at other sites.
BTW: for me, 1/9 is useless.;)
Belmont31R
06-08-10, 15:08
Nevermind I'm done. I don't know how many times I have to say it. I know I can't shoot anything heavier than 69GR.
You're not connecting the dots here.
70GR and heavier ammo is the best for human stopping. Yes you can kill someone with a 45GR JHP varmint load. That is not the point.
Lots of people, including me, rely on 70GR + ammo so for all of us a 1x9 is useless for anything but shoot dirt because we aren't shooting less than 70GR ammo for either competition or HD use. 1x9 may very well work for you for whatever loads you want to shoot. Go shoot it, and have fun.
RE military shooting super slow twist and 55 GR ammo. There is a reason why M193 was dropped, and they went to a 1x7 barrel. Now there is a big push to go to 70GR + ammo like Mk318 for the USMC, and Army SF + some other units are using Mk262. It works better. No one has said your 55GR will not kill someone. You're taking a comment way out of context, and not viewing it from the perspective of who said it. Maybe they should have given a little further detail to explain it but you're just not listening to reason.
You're not connecting the dots here.
70GR and heavier ammo is the best for human stopping. Yes you can kill someone with a 45GR JHP varmint load. That is not the point.
Lots of people, including me, rely on 70GR + ammo so for all of us a 1x9 is useless for anything but shoot dirt because we aren't shooting less than 70GR ammo for either competition or HD use. 1x9 may very well work for you for whatever loads you want to shoot. Go shoot it, and have fun.
RE military shooting super slow twist and 55 GR ammo. There is a reason why M193 was dropped, and they went to a 1x7 barrel. Now there is a big push to go to 70GR + ammo like Mk318 for the USMC, and Army SF + some other units are using Mk262. It works better. No one has said your 55GR will not kill someone. You're taking a comment way out of context, and not viewing it from the perspective of who said it. Maybe they should have given a little further detail to explain it but you're just not listening to reason.
Mk318 actually has a 62 gr bullet.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/17/usmc-adopt-new-5-56mm-mk318-mod-0-ammunition/
I've owned two AR15's, one had a 1/8 twist and the one I have now is a 1/7 twist. The 1/8 twist gun was for Highpower matches to stabilize the 80 gr. SMK, the 1/7 twist gun is for self defense and I keep 75 gr. Tap on hand for it.
The 1/9 twist is "limiting" in it's usefulness, so why limit yourself?
Belmont31R
06-08-10, 15:35
Mk318 actually has a 62 gr bullet.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/17/usmc-adopt-new-5-56mm-mk318-mod-0-ammunition/
You're right. I was thinking of the Mk294 which is similar to the Mk262.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj245/BM31R/56df5d7a.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj245/BM31R/5fcd0c17.jpg
If one limits their ammo to 75+ grain OTMs, then 1 in 9" approaches/reaches uselessness. It's a matter of perspective.
If you are willing to limit your ammo to 69 grain and less, 1 in 9" is entirely adequate from a bullet stabilization perspective. The additional previously mentioned quality attributes (proper gas port diameters, proper throat/leade dimensions) still apply.
Theoretically 1 in 8" would be equally acceptable. 1 in 8" is more of a match twist though so if you want to go this route you'd have to seek out a smith who would cut the chamber you specify (White Oak Precision, CLE, etc.). These smiths aren't into huge production, you're paying them to take their time and do the job right. And you're probably not going to get chrome lining, it would either either be a CM alloy or SS.
http://beta.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=7&f=22&t=738872
You're not connecting the dots here.
70GR and heavier ammo is the best for human stopping. Yes you can kill someone with a 45GR JHP varmint load. That is not the point.
Lots of people, including me, rely on 70GR + ammo so for all of us a 1x9 is useless for anything but shoot dirt because we aren't shooting less than 70GR ammo for either competition or HD use. 1x9 may very well work for you for whatever loads you want to shoot. Go shoot it, and have fun.
RE military shooting super slow twist and 55 GR ammo. There is a reason why M193 was dropped, and they went to a 1x7 barrel. Now there is a big push to go to 70GR + ammo like Mk318 for the USMC, and Army SF + some other units are using Mk262. It works better. No one has said your 55GR will not kill someone. You're taking a comment way out of context, and not viewing it from the perspective of who said it. Maybe they should have given a little further detail to explain it but you're just not listening to reason.
I connected the dots a long time ago. But one thing I did figure out here is this is more than a twist thing. This is a complete biased thing. This goes back to Chevy vs Ford. The Chevy guys will tell you that Fords are complete garbage, and the Ford guys will tell you Chevy's are complete garbage. And you will not get them to say otherwise. The sad thing though is it kind of ruins any credibility they ever had. Or at least in my eyes.
I'm not arguing that 70+GR ammo is better than 65GR ammo. Anyone with half a brain could figure that out.
What I am arguing though is that a 1:9 twist barrel is completely useless. To say it is completely useless; you might as well say its a toy and you would feel completely comfortable with a toddler playing with it while it is loaded. Hell if it's useless then it couldn't possibly hurt anyone right?
You would never catch me driving a Yugo. Me personally I think they are butt ugly, and death traps. But to some people they get them from point a to point b. Therefore they are useful to them.
So are you really telling me, that if I were to shoot someone in self defense of my home with my 1:9 barrel. That the guy would just stand there and say wow. I'm lucky that wasn't a 1:7 twist barrel, then I would have been screwed. Seriously you really expect me to believe that.
From your posts in the other thread (and now this one), I am concerned about your reading comprehension.
No, you can kill someone dead with a .22LR out of a 1/16 twist barrel. Is that the optimal choice? Nope. Same goes with the 1/9. Is it the OPTIMAL choice? Nope.
You have already talked me into getting rid of my 1:9 barrel for a better brand 1:7 barrel, but to say the only thing it's good for is shooting dirt.. Really? Are you really saying that if I were to shoot someone with my 1:9 barrel that they would just laugh it off?
I don't care if you keep it or sell it (isn't what this is about). If you like it and it does what you needed it to do, then keep it.
I shoot 75gr ammo suppressed out of a 10.5" barrel 99.9% of the time. So a 1/9 twist barrel is worth nothing to me. YMMV
C4
Belmont31R
06-08-10, 16:57
I connected the dots a long time ago. But one thing I did figure out here is this is more than a twist thing. This is a complete biased thing. This goes back to Chevy vs Ford. The Chevy guys will tell you that Fords are complete garbage, and the Ford guys will tell you Chevy's are complete garbage. And you will not get them to say otherwise. The sad thing though is it kind of ruins any credibility they ever had. Or at least in my eyes.
I'm not arguing that 70+GR ammo is better than 65GR ammo. Anyone with half a brain could figure that out.
What I am arguing though is that a 1:9 twist barrel is completely useless. To say it is completely useless; you might as well say its a toy and you would feel completely comfortable with a toddler playing with it while it is loaded. Hell if it's useless then it couldn't possibly hurt anyone right?
You would never catch me driving a Yugo. Me personally I think they are butt ugly, and death traps. But to some people they get them from point a to point b. Therefore they are useful to them.
No. Both Grant, and GotM4 both were speaking from their perspective.
You are correct but why limit one self?
They are useless to me and could be a liability.
Useless depends on what you want to do with the gun. If you are into shooting dirt, then no. If you want the most effective fighting gun, then the heavier grain ammo out of a 1/7 twist gun is the way to go.
1/9 twist guns are useless to me. As I stated in the other thread, besides the fact that 1/9 twist guns limit ones ammo options, they have also gotten a lesser quality gun (generally speaking).
C4
No they are just claiming that a 1x9 is completely useless for shooting anything other than dirt. So that implies that it will not kill someone. I'm seeing an awful lot of biased opinions coming out. I'm not saying that 1x9 barrels aren't junk, apparently they are. But I would never make a claim saying that they are completely useless either.
I remember not so long ago that the military used 1x11 twist rates in all of their barrels. I seem to remember them doing a lot of killing back then.
Incorrect. What we ARE saying is that we like the benefits of heavier grain ammo and like the quality of the 1/7 twist barrels. So to us, 1/9 twist barrels are of no interest.
Again, no one is saying that you cannot kill someone with a 1/9 twist, 55gr bullet.
Try not reading into things so much. It will save you a lot pain.
C4
I connected the dots a long time ago. But one thing I did figure out here is this is more than a twist thing. This is a complete biased thing. This goes back to Chevy vs Ford. The Chevy guys will tell you that Fords are complete garbage, and the Ford guys will tell you Chevy's are complete garbage. And you will not get them to say otherwise. The sad thing though is it kind of ruins any credibility they ever had. Or at least in my eyes.
I'm not arguing that 70+GR ammo is better than 65GR ammo. Anyone with half a brain could figure that out.
What I am arguing though is that a 1:9 twist barrel is completely useless. To say it is completely useless; you might as well say its a toy and you would feel completely comfortable with a toddler playing with it while it is loaded. Hell if it's useless then it couldn't possibly hurt anyone right?
You would never catch me driving a Yugo. Me personally I think they are butt ugly, and death traps. But to some people they get them from point a to point b. Therefore they are useful to them.
For your argument to hold any water, we would have to say that Hornady T2 blows MK262 out of the water (Chevy VS Ford). This just isn't true.
If we compare a Colt 1/7 twist barrel against your Oly 1/9 twist, it would be like comparing a Yugo to a Ferrari. No contest in quality, reliability, etc.
So yes, a 1/9 twist barrel is just fine (if it fits your needs). It does not fit mine and many others needs as well as a 1/7 twist barrel does.
No bias going on here, just a lot of common sense oriented folks telling you what the optimal choice is for killing two legged varmints. ;)
C4
Incorrect. What we ARE saying is that we like the benefits of heavier grain ammo and like the quality of the 1/7 twist barrels. So to us, 1/9 twist barrels are of no interest.
Again, no one is saying that you cannot kill someone with a 1/9 twist, 55gr bullet.
Try not reading into things so much. It will save you a lot pain.
C4
Okay I apologize maybe I am reading too much into it. But that is the only point I was trying to make.
No. Both Grant, and GotM4 both were speaking from their perspective.
You highlighted and bolded the wrong statement. Look right above where you highlighted Grants statement. Where he said If you are shooting into dirt then No (meaning if you are only shooting into dirt then no it's not useless, otherwise yes it is). That is the statement I am referring to.
And I wasn't referring to GotM4 at all. There was someone else earlier in the thread that said they were completely useless. Without going back and looking for it. It said something like Stay away from the 1x9 twist rate they are completely useless. The word for me was never used.
That's when I started chiming in and having to don my flame retardant suit. I knew I would get flamed for it, but it really bothers me when people use blanket statements like that. Saying everything is junk. Really?
I even admitted that I knew it wasn't optimal. But to just say it's completely useless is just wrong.
A Ferrari is a better car than a Ford Escort. But that doesn't mean the Escort doesn't have it's uses. Again that is also subjective. I know people who hate Ferrari as well.
Belmont31R
06-08-10, 17:25
You highlighted and bolded the wrong statement. Look right above where you highlighted Grants statement. Where he said If you are shooting into dirt then No (meaning if you are only shooting into dirt then no it's not useless, otherwise yes it is). That is the statement I am referring to.
And I wasn't referring to GotM4 at all. There was someone else earlier in the thread that said they were completely useless. Without going back and looking for it. It said something like Stay away from the 1x9 twist rate they are completely useless. The word for me was never used.
That's when I started chiming in and having to don my flame retardant suit. I knew I would get flamed for it, but it really bothers me when people use blanket statements like that. Saying everything is junk. Really?
I even admitted that I knew it wasn't optimal. But to just say it's completely useless is just wrong.
A Ferrari is a better car than a Ford Escort. But that doesn't mean the Escort doesn't have it's uses. Again that is also subjective. I know people who hate Ferrari as well.
I don't think his statement was exclusionary in that sense. Basically saying if all you are doing with the gun is shooting into dirt then 1x9 is fine. He never said the only thing its good for is shooting dirt.
He also said, "if you want the most effective...", not that it is the ONLY effective twist. That implies there is more than one effective twist.
Its been explained to you a few times now. No further point in debating this, and its stupid to keep on with people who can't understand basic English terms.
Robb Jensen
06-08-10, 18:27
You're right. I was thinking of the Mk294 which is similar to the Mk262.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj245/BM31R/56df5d7a.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj245/BM31R/5fcd0c17.jpg
Mk294 is basically Mk262 but with a moly coating.
A Ferrari is a better car than a Ford Escort. But that doesn't mean the Escort doesn't have it's uses. Again that is also subjective. I know people who hate Ferrari as well.
Depends on what the uses are. In this instance, if the use is to:
1. Go fast.
2. Pick up hot chicks.
3. Hold its value.
Which car is going to win?
Relating this to the 1/9 VS 1/7 discussion:
1. The ability to kill people out to 600M-800M.
2. Most reliable barrel (gas port, chamber, etc).
3. Higher re-sale value.
C4
This thread really went to hell in a hurry!
How does that study group of one 1x9 barrel shoot 77gr Sierra Matchkings suppressed? Would you risk a $1K sound suppressor on it?
I was referring to the 69 grain Fed Gold Medal Sierra Match BTHP. Extremely effective, and like I said its a Colt Tactical 6721 its not commercial. I didn't mention "study group" just my experience with my one Colt. Like I said I have 1/7s and I would stick to a 1/7 all around, however my job uses this ammunition and I have no complaints in regard to its effectiveness and its overall performance. Different Organizations, Departments have different needs. Enough said...
I think the message was received...some just like to pick all the fly shit out of the pepper.
. . . like I said its a Colt Tactical 6721 its not commercial . . .
What does that mean?
.....
...I like 1x8 for match barrels for maximum velocity with heavy 75-77gr rounds. 1x7 will work with them too but the push a little slower. ...
If we follow the logic of the 1X8 twist for the "maximum velocity," wouldn't a 1X9 push 55 to 62 grain bullets a little faster than a 1X8 or 7? (To me it is a rhetorical question)
Many agencies issue cartridges with 55 grain projectiles and that is all their officers are going to shoot. Applying the logic of the slower twist rate equaling more velocity, then you are increasing the distance you can get effective fragmentation/terminal ballistics from a 55 grain bullet with a 1X9 twist barrel. Some I know still use 1X12 twist barrels. They are M-16A1's on lend/lease from the Federal Government.
I personally do not think the 1X9 twist is totally useless in the law enforcement community as long as agencies are issuing ammunition in 55 to 62 grain range.
I am certain I will get flamed for this, but it won't be the first time. I personally use 1X8 for competition and 1X7 for defense also, but I do not believe 1X9 is useless, just less desirable to me.
vicious_cb
06-09-10, 01:36
Id like to know how much twist rate affects velocity granted every other aspect of the barrels are equal.
I really don't think it makes that much difference, especially with lighter projectiles. I believe there is more of a difference with heavier projectiles.
Absent manufacturing several barrels to exacting tolerances other than twist, I think the best way we can determine the effect is to chrono ammo through a Colt 1X7 and 1X9 of the same barrel length. Unfortunately I do not a Colt AR, let alone one of each.
I have chronographed ammo out of the different barrel lengths (6.5, 10.5, 11.5, 16, 18 and 20) I own just to build dope for each individual rifle. The barrels are of several different makes, twist rates and made from different materials, so there are more factors involved than just length.
i pretty much read everything up to this point.. i didn't see anywhere where anyone tried to put it like this.....
a 1/9 twist barrel is not, by itself, a "useless" item. it'll kill somebuddy, even if you just use it to whack um in the head.
but the concept fills no specific roll. there's nothing a 1/9 is best at, and it's not a "compromise" between between anything- either you need a slow twist or a fast twist, and if you only need one or the other, then you need one or the other- not a ****in 1/9.
so, to summarize, the concept is useless.
Belmont31R
06-09-10, 02:12
If we follow the logic of the 1X8 twist for the "maximum velocity," wouldn't a 1X9 push 55 to 62 grain bullets a little faster than a 1X8 or 7? (To me it is a rhetorical question)
Many agencies issue cartridges with 55 grain projectiles and that is all their officers are going to shoot. Applying the logic of the slower twist rate equaling more velocity, then you are increasing the distance you can get effective fragmentation/terminal ballistics from a 55 grain bullet with a 1X9 twist barrel. Some I know still use 1X12 twist barrels. They are M-16A1's on lend/lease from the Federal Government.
I personally do not think the 1X9 twist is totally useless in the law enforcement community as long as agencies are issuing ammunition in 55 to 62 grain range.
I am certain I will get flamed for this, but it won't be the first time. I personally use 1X8 for competition and 1X7 for defense also, but I do not believe 1X9 is useless, just less desirable to me.
Its really a matter of perspective. If all someone is going to shoot is 55 grain ammo than it doesn't really matter.
A PD issuing guns and ammo is a bit different than people who are buying their own stuff, and in that case there really isn't a good reason to limit ones self when the best defensive ammo is in the 70 grain range. Not that its the ONLY choice but it makes the most logical sense.
My definition of useless which is the same as Dictionary.coms definition: use·less
–adjective
1. of no use; not serving the purpose or any purpose; unavailing or futile: It is useless to reason with him.
2. without useful qualities; of no practical good: a useless person; a useless gadget....
Summary: If I can't take any of my ammo and shoot it at 200, 300, 400 or 500yds and know damn sure it'll stabilize the bullet and it'll actually fly true out to those distances or that I load up a magazine with any ammo I have on hand and shoot my SBRs with an attached sound suppressor and fire away and not have to worry about baffle strikes....If I can't do either of those things because the twist rate isn't fast enough in my barrel then that barrel is useless.
And the definition of useful:
Main Entry: use·ful
Pronunciation: \ˈyüs-fəl\
Function: adjective
Date: 1595
1 : capable of being put to use; especially : serviceable for an end or purpose <useful tools>
I will agree that for your needs a 1X9 may not be of use. For me it is not desirable. I cannot agree that it is of no use when it is in fact serviceable for many and has successfully been put to good use by many.
Its really a matter of perspective. If all someone is going to shoot is 55 grain ammo than it doesn't really matter.
A PD issuing guns and ammo is a bit different than people who are buying their own stuff, and in that case there really isn't a good reason to limit ones self when the best defensive ammo is in the 70 grain range. Not that its the ONLY choice but it makes the most logical sense.
I agree 100%.
Federal makes a GMM in both 69, and 77 grain. If he is using 69 grain it may stabilize in a Colt 1x9 barrel.Fed 69 SMK: I have shot these out of other 1/9 rifles (Bushmasters and RRAs) without any problems. In fact they all shot very tight groups. Based on my experience, I have complete confidence these rounds are very effective when shooting center mass or taking a more precision head shot. Not including my DAEWOO which I picked up new in the 80's and the 6721 all my rifles are 1/7 twist. I will say the Colt Tactical which I have made NO modifications to is a favorite. I like it just the way it is right out of the box 1/9.......Keep in mind some of us have to worry about over penetration in the environment in which we work.
Robb Jensen
06-09-10, 07:23
If we follow the logic of the 1X8 twist for the "maximum velocity," wouldn't a 1X9 push 55 to 62 grain bullets a little faster than a 1X8 or 7? (To me it is a rhetorical question)
Many agencies issue cartridges with 55 grain projectiles and that is all their officers are going to shoot. Applying the logic of the slower twist rate equaling more velocity, then you are increasing the distance you can get effective fragmentation/terminal ballistics from a 55 grain bullet with a 1X9 twist barrel. Some I know still use 1X12 twist barrels. They are M-16A1's on lend/lease from the Federal Government.
I personally do not think the 1X9 twist is totally useless in the law enforcement community as long as agencies are issuing ammunition in 55 to 62 grain range.
I am certain I will get flamed for this, but it won't be the first time. I personally use 1X8 for competition and 1X7 for defense also, but I do not believe 1X9 is useless, just less desirable to me.
1x9 barrels will push 55-62gr a little faster than 1x7 as a whole, I've noticed typically 20-30fps with 16" barrels. But then again I've seen the same difference between to identical 1x7 16" barrels shooting the same loads. It's not as noticeable as it is with 1x8 vs. 1x7 with 75-77gr ammo. The heavier the bullet the more the momentum and thus the better velocity. 90% of the time if you chrono two 16" barrels 1x7 vs 1x8 you'll see that the 1x8 pushes 75-77gr ammo consistently faster than the 1x7. Usually I see a 30-50fps increase using the 1x8. And this is why I prefer a 1x8 for my 3gun rifle, for matches where I'll be doing a lot of shooting past 200yds I use Prvi 75gr MATCH ammo, if it's mostly inside 200yds I use various 55gr stuff but typically blue box Black Hills .
As stated earlier 1x9 is useless to me, it offers nothing to me that 1x7 or 1x8 can't do and if I accidentily mounted a suppressor on a 1x9 barrel and had a mag loaded with 75gr or 77gr ammo I could ruin my day and F'up a nice suppressor. I've owned 1x9 barrels and yes they work fine for 45-69gr ammo....I've since sold or shot out and or disposed of those barrels.
Id like to know how much twist rate affects velocity granted every other aspect of the barrels are equal.
For .223/5.56mm and 1:7" twist versus 1:9" twist it doesn't. There is no statistically significant difference in velocity between a 1:9" twist barrel and a 1:7" twist barrel of identical construction. I've chronographed more than 40 different AR-15 barrels and any difference in velocity between a 1:9" twist and a 1:7" twist is simply due to barrel to barrel variations; not the twist. You'll see as much variation between two identical barrels with the same twist as you will between otherwise identical barrels with a 1:7" twist versus a 1:9" twist.
Anyone claiming a generalized significant increase in velocity with a 1:9" twist over a 1:7" twist doesn't have the facts behind them and I challenge anyone making such a claim to post statistically significant data supporting their claim.
But then again I've seen the same difference between to identical 1x7 16" barrels shooting the same loads. It's not as noticeable as it is with 1x8 vs. 1x7 with 75-77gr ammo. The heavier the bullet the more the momentum and thus the better velocity. 90% of the time if you chrono two 16" barrels 1x7 vs 1x8 you'll see that the 1x8 pushes 75-77gr ammo consistently faster than the 1x7. Usually I see a 30-50fps increase using the 1x8. And this is why I prefer a 1x8 for my 3gun rifle, for matches where I'll be doing a lot of shooting past 200yds I use Prvi 75gr MATCH ammo, if it's mostly inside 200yds I use various 55gr stuff but typically blue box Black Hills .
...[snip]...
Interesting info, I own rifles in both 1/8 and 1/7, and have often wondered about the real-world differences between the two.
Aside from this velocity difference, are there any other practical differences between 1/7 and 1/8 that would lead you to pick one over the other for certain applications?
1/9 is nothing more than less capable.. and reduced capability is gay.
Indeed. :D
I'm done with the whole argument thing, but I do have a few questions.
What would happen if you would fire 77GR ammo out of a 1:9 unsuppressed barrel? I know it will start to tumble, but how soon does that happen? Right at the muzzle, 5ft, 10ft, 25yds? Will it damage the weapon? Is it unsafe to even try?
Now if the bullet does start to tumble right out of the muzzle, how does that effect accuracy? Will it throw it way off, would it only be a couple MOA? If it only throws it off say 6" at a 100yds, then that would in theory only equate to maybe less than an inch at 10ft. Would that not tend to do more damage to the bad guy? In turn equating to more stopping power.
I'm done with the whole argument thing, but I do have a few questions.
What would happen if you would fire 77GR ammo out of a 1:9 unsuppressed barrel? I know it will start to tumble, but how soon does that happen?
Generally speaking, you wouldn't notice a huge difference inside 100 yards. Outside of that, the bullet will get wild in a hurry.
I'm done with the whole argument thing, but I do have a few questions.
What would happen if you would fire 77GR ammo out of a 1:9 unsuppressed barrel? I know it will start to tumble, but how soon does that happen? Right at the muzzle, 5ft, 10ft, 25yds? Will it damage the weapon? Is it unsafe to even try?
Now if the bullet does start to tumble right out of the muzzle, how does that effect accuracy? Will it throw it way off, would it only be a couple MOA? If it only throws it off say 6" at a 100yds, then that would in theory only equate to maybe less than an inch at 10ft. Would that not tend to do more damage to the bad guy? In turn equating to more stopping power.
You just have to test it at various ranges to see if your 1 in 9" is on the cusp on stabilizing the bullet. The bullet won't tumble per se, but it will yaw or wobble some. Think of an ugly football pass where there's no tight, stable spiral.
This isn't an exact science, actual rifling twist may be a bit quicker and some a bit slower than 1 in 9. You'll be able to see keyholing on the target as stability falls below the threshold, and prior to that groups will open up.
If relegated to a 1 in 9 barrel, I'd drop down in bullet weight (68-69 OTM or something lighter) rather than shoot 75 OTM that's on the cusp of stability. That's just MHO.
You also have to consider environmental issues. Temperature, humidity, altitude, and so on. Something that shoots well on a warm dry day at sea level may not preform so well if shot in the cold mountain air.
Apparently you want to argue for the sake of arguing just as many do when they find out they made an un-informed decision. GotM4 and the others are trying to make you realize that with a 1/7 barrel you can shoot a wide range of projectiles up to at least 77gr. These rounds are proving to be more effective.
With a 1/9 you are limited as to what type of defensive rounds you can use. We at M4Carbine.net take issues of self defense more seriously than other well known websites.
So yes, unless you are just going to punch paper or dirt they are essentially worthless.
Please tell us what weapon you are referring to that the U.S military used that had a 1/11 twist? It surely wasn't the M16 because as far as I know they were either 1/12 or 1/14.
No they are just claiming that a 1x9 is completely useless for shooting anything other than dirt. So that implies that it will not kill someone. I'm seeing an awful lot of biased opinions coming out. I'm not saying that 1x9 barrels aren't junk, apparently they are. But I would never make a claim saying that they are completely useless either.
I remember not so long ago that the military used 1x11 twist rates in all of their barrels. I seem to remember them doing a lot of killing back then.
I personally do not think the 1X9 twist is totally useless in the law enforcement community as long as agencies are issuing ammunition in 55 to 62 grain range.
1/9 uselessly limits the choice of top performing ammo while offering no advantages.
1/9 is fine for the lay person... 90% of them only shoot whatever 55 gr they can get a hold of anyway. It's what they are going to practice with, there for should probably be what they use. For those who "work" with this platform, I personally say your better off with 1/7 and the purpose developed heavier rounds. HOWEVER, the vast majority of the LE guys are limited to 55 gr because its all their cheap ass Dept's will allow them for duty rounds (on the Dept's dime, not allowing you to use your own). Facts are facts on that issue.
What will the 1/9 do that the 1/7 will not do?........Nothing!
What will the 1/7 do that the 1/9 will not do?........Shoot heaver better performing ammo.
So what is the point of a 1/9 barrel?.......... there isn’t one.
IIRC the 1/9 was developed because of a myth that the 1/7 twist was too fast and a slower twist would be more accurate with lighter bullets. So if the design of the 1/9 barrel is based on a myth, then yes you could say it is useless. After all in order for something to be useful it must provide something that is not otherwise provided.
1/9 was designed to reduce wear/increase service life. in fact, the military commissioned the 1/9 twist, but ended up not using it because of Colt bribes at the top levels of military leadership. it was a conspiracy to keep other, better manufacturers from competing for DoD contracts.. like Bushmaster and RRA, who are unwilling to compromise and use the inferior 1/7 twist.
i felt so "educated" by the time i walked away from the RRA table.
...in case some of you new guys missed the irony, this is totally untrue.
5pins,
Don't know if that was a general statement or directed towards mine. So to clarify, mine is toward "if you already have it, don't freak out about it" (for Average Joe that is). If your starting with a clean slate, or need a "working gun", of course there's no good reason in the world not to go with a tighter twist than one and nine.
Sorry if my comment mislead anyone... ANYONE to my point! However, over 17 years in the business, and now a trainer. I'll stick by my comment that the Layman will rarely EVER shoot anything other than 55 gr, and the majority of LE are stuck with it.
ive got 1/7, but mainly shoot 55gr. kinda defeats the purpose lol.
...but it's not a bad thing. Just goes to my point about 55 gr being all many will ever see. My first build was a 1/9... 1/7 since cause I want to use the most affective round I can in the most effective weapon I can.
5pins,
Don't know if that was a general statement or directed towards mine.
It was a general statement not directed at anyone.
vicious_cb
06-10-10, 01:48
What will the 1/9 do that the 1/7 will not do?........Nothing!
What will the 1/7 do that the 1/9 will not do?........Shoot heaver better performing ammo.
So what is the point of a 1/9 barrel?.......... there isn’t one.
IIRC the 1/9 was developed because of a myth that the 1/7 twist was too fast and a slower twist would be more accurate with lighter bullets. So if the design of the 1/9 barrel is based on a myth, then yes you could say it is useless. After all in order for something to be useful it must provide something that is not otherwise provided.
Its relevant if you want to blow up squirrels with super lightweight varmint rounds like the 36gr varmint grenade. Which I dont think will survive for more than a few yards after being shot from a 1/7. This is course is moot from a self defense standpoint. :D
All my barrels are 1/7 since I shoot the heavier bullets exclusively.
Its relevant if you want to blow up squirrels with super lightweight varmint rounds like the 36gr varmint grenade. Which I dont think will survive for more than a few yards after being shot from a 1/7. This is course is moot from a self defense standpoint. :D
All my barrels are 1/7 since I shoot the heavier bullets exclusively.
but the 1/9 isn't good for those, either- thats what they make 1/12 varmint barrels for.
Apparently you want to argue for the sake of arguing just as many do when they find out they made an un-informed decision. GotM4 and the others are trying to make you realize that with a 1/7 barrel you can shoot a wide range of projectiles up to at least 77gr. These rounds are proving to be more effective.
With a 1/9 you are limited as to what type of defensive rounds you can use. We at M4Carbine.net take issues of self defense more seriously than other well known websites.
So yes, unless you are just going to punch paper or dirt they are essentially worthless.
Please tell us what weapon you are referring to that the U.S military used that had a 1/11 twist? It surely wasn't the M16 because as far as I know they were either 1/12 or 1/14.
Honestly I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing. I just have a problem with someone saying just because of your twist rate, the gun is utterly useless. That implies the gun has zero uses whatsoever. It is a very poor choice in words. That is all I've been trying to say.
By some of the comparisons I've seen lately not to single one person out, but the one that sticks in my mind is from 5Pins. Saying that the 1:9 is useless because the 1:7 can shoot heavier rounds.
Okay by using that analogy a 720P plasma television is useless then, since there are Plasma televisions out there that can display 1080p.
I know a 1:9 is not the optimal twist rate, but it was what was available at the time when I purchased it. Not that I really care about that anyway. The only ammunition available locally is sub 70GR anyway.
I refuse to buy ammunition through mail order. I've had too much stuff stolen off of my doorstep even when the signature required box was checked. Most of the stuff I order mail order I have sent to my workplace, but they will not let me ship ammunition here.
And yes I was mistaken when I said 1:11 twist.. I meant 1:12. I was going off of memory from when I was in the military 20 years ago and was issued the 1:12 twist rate M16A1.
Edit: According to the forum rules debate is encouraged. I would definitely call this a debate.. A fairly heated debate, but still a debate.. :D
Honestly I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing. I just have a problem with someone saying just because of your twist rate, the gun is utterly useless. That implies the gun has zero uses whatsoever. It is a very poor choice in words. That is all I've been trying to say.
I think you must have a head like a rock. You state that you are done with this convo, but yet keep coming back to it.
When GotM4 and I state that 1/9 twist AR's are USELESS to us, well that is our opinion. So it isn't a "poor choice of words," it is our OPINION! If you think that a 1/9 twist barrel isn't USELESS, then that if fine.
By some of the comparisons I've seen lately not to single one person out, but the one that sticks in my mind is from TenPin. Saying that the 1:9 is useless because the 1:7 can shoot heavier rounds.
Okay by using that analogy a 720P plasma television is useless then, since there are Plasma televisions out there that can display 1080p.
I know a 1:9 is not the optimal twist rate, but it was what was available at the time when I purchased it. Not that I really care about that anyway. The only ammunition available locally is sub 70GR anyway.
I refuse to buy ammunition through mail order. I've had too much stuff stolen off of my doorstep even when the signature required box was checked. Most of the stuff I order mail order I have sent to my workplace, but they will not let me ship ammunition here.
And yes I was mistaken when I said 1:11 twist.. I meant 1:12. I was going off of memory from when I was in the military 20 years ago and was issued the 1:12 twist rate M16A1.
What you fail to understand is that this goes deeper than the twist rate. It gets into the quality of the barrel itself. Many of us have ZERO INTEREST in cheap, over gassed, .223 + chambered barrels. They are USELESS to us.
No need for you to justify your 1/9 barrel choice and issues with finding quality ammo locally (as we don't care). If you really wanted quality, you would get a box at the local UPS store and have it shipped there. Or work with one of your local FFL dealers to order you the ammo and pick it up there.
C4
I think this whole discussion is a ploy by FyrHazzrd to get his post count up so he can post in GD. :D
Seriously, thanks for the info, guys.
I think you must have a head like a rock. You state that you are done with this convo, but yet keep coming back to it.
When GotM4 and I state that 1/9 twist AR's are USELESS to us, well that is our opinion. So it isn't a "poor choice of words," it is our OPINION! If you think that a 1/9 twist barrel isn't USELESS, then that if fine.
What you fail to understand is that this goes deeper than the twist rate. It gets into the quality of the barrel itself. Many of us have ZERO INTEREST in cheap, over gassed, .223 + chambered barrels. They are USELESS to us.
No need for you to justify your 1/9 barrel choice and issues with finding quality ammo locally (as we don't care). If you really wanted quality, you would get a box at the local UPS store and have it shipped there. Or work with one of your local FFL dealers to order you the ammo and pick it up there.
C4
No need for personal attacks. The only reason I responded is because I was quoted and accused of arguing for the sake of arguing. That's not the case at all.
I get it.. You have no use for a 1:9 barrel. That still doesn't mean it's useless.
I also get that the quality isn't there.. That's fine. I would have loved to have had the opportunity to purchase a better quality barrel. But when I click on the links to the barrels I'm interested in and they are all out of stock, and I request to be notified when they come in; and then 6 months later still have not been notified that they were in. Well I bought what was available. I got tired of waiting for something that might never come in. And btw 3 months after I purchased my barrel I finally get an email. So it would have been a 9 month wait.
Maybe if everyone is going to push these quality barrels on people, just so that everyone can shoot a heavier round then the manufacturers should possibly ramp up production to keep up with demand.
I also love how I'm the one being singled out in this thread. I'm not the only one who disagrees with the statement that they are useless. I'm just more opinionated, and therefore am the target of personal attacks.
I guess a person isn't entitled to his own opinion on this board.
As a point of reference, it may be useful for folks to reaquaint themselves with DocGKR's stickied 5.56 load thread on the ammunition board. He has a number of recommendations for various weapon configs and scenarios and he highlights the pros and cons of the various loads, including heavyweight OTMs, which are not a panacea for all situations.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881
Both sides of this story are a bit "ate up" at times... getting our feathers ruffled (everyone) over what some jack knob says on the other side of a keyboard SHOULD be utterly beneath us all.
As a point of reference, it may be useful for folks to reaquaint themselves with DocGKR's stickied 5.56 load thread on the ammunition board. He has a number of recommendations for various weapon configs and scenarios and he highlights the pros and cons of the various loads, including heavyweight OTMs, which are not a panacea for all situations.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881
Wow... talk about on point as ammo selection drives twist.
No need for personal attacks. The only reason I responded is because I was quoted and accused of arguing for the sake of arguing. That's not the case at all.
I get it.. You have no use for a 1:9 barrel. That still doesn't mean it's useless.
I also get that the quality isn't there.. That's fine. I would have loved to have had the opportunity to purchase a better quality barrel. But when I click on the links to the barrels I'm interested in and they are all out of stock, and I request to be notified when they come in; and then 6 months later still have not been notified that they were in. Well I bought what was available. I got tired of waiting for something that might never come in. And btw 3 months after I purchased my barrel I finally get an email. So it would have been a 9 month wait.
Maybe if everyone is going to push these quality barrels on people, just so that everyone can shoot a heavier round then the manufacturers should possibly ramp up production to keep up with demand.
I also love how I'm the one being singled out in this thread. I'm not the only one who disagrees with the statement that they are useless. I'm just more opinionated, and therefore am the target of personal attacks.
I guess a person isn't entitled to his own opinion on this board.
No one personally attacked you. Just stated the obvious.
You are being singled out because you are stating the same thing over and over and just don't seem to understand why the MAJORITY of us have no use for a 1/9 twist barrel.
You never needed to wait for a quality 1/7 twist barrel. Uppers and barrels are all over the net. You just needed to know where and how to look (and be ok with buying used).
You are entitled to your opinion just like everyone else is. I would read this first though: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19307
C4
...ammo selection drives twist.
No, any ammo recommended for the slower twist will be just as effective out of 1/7.
The 1/9 simply limits your choices, some of those are generally the best choice for HD where auto windshield penetration is not a concern.
Ok, ok, I misspoke again... All 1/9 owners who are 55 gr only shooters need to go have their evil 1/9s melted down and rush out and buy a 1/7 they really don't need. All hail the 1/7 gods...
However, the original thread IS about a man needing a new barrel. That answer is an easy 1/7. The thread turned to "1/9 is worthless", which it is NOT if you already OWN it and only shoot 55 gr.
However, the original thread IS about a man needing a new barrel. That answer is an easy 1/7. The thread turned to "1/9 is worthless", which it is NOT if you already OWN it and only shoot 55 gr.
You make a great point but this does happen a lot here. The moderators seem to be working on this (keeping post's on topic).
fivefivesix
07-04-10, 18:55
just wanted to update i bought a dd chrome lined 16 in carbine gas system 1 in 7 twist. at fifty yards (the only length i shoot at) in can cover 5 shots with a fifty cent peice. the barrel is button rifled instead of hammer forged. after i bought it the next day aimsurplus had the same barrel but hammer forged for the same price as i paid for mine. oh well i wont let that ruin my new purchase. i would like to thank all the members that gave me feedback cause in hindsight i would have purchased a 1 in 9 cause it was cheapest and eaiser to get. thanks fellas
ChicagoTex
07-04-10, 18:57
just wanted to update i bought a dd chrome lined 16 in carbine gas system 1 in 7 twist. at fifty yards (the only length i shoot at) in can cover 5 shots with a fifty cent peice. the barrel is button rifled instead of hammer forged. after i bought it the next day aimsurplus had the same barrel but hammer forged for the same price as i paid for mine. oh well i wont let that ruin my new purchase. i would like to thank all the members that gave me feedback cause in hindsight i would have purchased a 1 in 9 cause it was cheapest and eaiser to get. thanks fellas
You made a great barrel purchase, and while it does kinda suck you missed out on the CHF sale, I doubt you'd see any benefit at 50yds anyway.
So, then, for your purposes, you have just about the best barrel money can buy ;)
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