View Full Version : Retention or not Retention....That is the question.
Hey fellas. My instructor and I have a friendly disagreement. He believes in a concealment holster with retenton and I do not. Keep in mind that he spent 23 years as a Tampa LEO and I completely understand that carrying in uniform retention makes perfect sense. But my argument is that under concealment I want to keep it as simple and as fast as possible. Currently I run an M&P 9fs with a Raven Phantom. I do understand his argument that if I ever run into an altercation that involves someone struggling with me and discovering that I have a gun and attempts to grab it a retention holster does offer a very good advantage. On the other hand a non-retention holster offers me greater speed and simplicity under duress. What say you guys? Which one do you prefer? Thanks,
-Jax
I'm in the "no retention for concealed carry" camp - because I personally haven't found a holster yet that conceals as well, or draws as fast, as any of the retention rigs I've used. This doesn't even begin to address the issue of what happens if you need to draw your weapon from your retention holster with a weak-hand only draw...
IMHO, retention starts with situational awareness. EVERY confrontation you enter has at least one gun involved - yours - and you'd best TRAIN on how to retain it.
Of course, this is just my opinion, and worth EXACTLY what you paid for it.
Regards,
Kevin
I brought up this very topic in another thread. There does not seem to be a perfect solution, but i think i prefer some extra retention.
Retention starts with situational awareness! Couldn't said it better myself man!
I'm in the "no retention for concealed carry" camp - because I personally haven't found a holster yet that conceals as well, or draws as fast, as any of the retention rigs I've used. This doesn't even begin to address the issue of what happens if you need to draw your weapon from your retention holster with a weak-hand only draw...
IMHO, retention starts with situational awareness. EVERY confrontation you enter has at least one gun involved - yours - and you'd best TRAIN on how to retain it.
Of course, this is just my opinion, and worth EXACTLY what you paid for it.
Regards,
Kevin
Retention training and a concealed handgun in a tight form fitted quality duarable holster will get my nod over any gizmo marketed to make someone feel more secure.
Retention may begin with SA, but it ends with effective training and practice FoF
Outlander Systems
05-20-10, 20:45
I err on the side of caution. Since I'm pretty consistent with OWB carry only, retention is a big deal for me.
Since all my drawing may not take place upon the command of a timer's beep, I don't know that I won't get the pleasure of having a knee flung into my wang by thug A, whilst thug B is spraying me with OC, while thug C is calmly sliding my favourite side iron out of its unencumbered nest, to put two through my dome.
Once you've gotten used to drawing from your retention holster, unless the design is seriously flawed, you're not going to see a noticeable speed bump.
I prefer some sort of thumb-break release over a Serpa-style index-release. That's just my two-centavos.
That's why I started this thread NavigatingCollapse. A Very good point you bring up.
I err on the side of caution. Since I'm pretty consistent with OWB carry only, retention is a big deal for me.
Since all my drawing may not take place upon the command of a timer's beep, I don't know that I won't get the pleasure of having a knee flung into my wang by thug A, whilst thug B is spraying me with OC, while thug C is calmly sliding my favourite side iron out of its unencumbered nest, to put two through my dome.
Once you've gotten used to drawing from your retention holster, unless the design is seriously flawed, you're not going to see a noticeable speed bump.
I prefer some sort of thumb-break release over a Serpa-style index-release. That's just my two-centavos.
I err on the side of caution. Since I'm pretty consistent with OWB carry only, retention is a big deal for me.
Since all my drawing may not take place upon the command of a timer's beep, I don't know that I won't get the pleasure of having a knee flung into my wang by thug A, whilst thug B is spraying me with OC, while thug C is calmly sliding my favourite side iron out of its unencumbered nest, to put two through my dome.
Once you've gotten used to drawing from your retention holster, unless the design is seriously flawed, you're not going to see a noticeable speed bump.
I prefer some sort of thumb-break release over a Serpa-style index-release. That's just my two-centavos.
These are the kind of scenarios that would have me wanting extra retention.
SWATcop556
05-20-10, 23:03
If I'm in uniform or open carrying then I have a retention holster. I've switched all of my holsters for this purpose over to the Safariland ALS for commonality in draw and release mechanism.
For concealed carry I prefer no retention since I have yet to find a retention holster that I can truely conceal. I don't use thumb breaks do to the leather getting too soft and flexible over time and practice. I use kydex for concealed carry.
ChicagoTex
05-21-10, 01:27
my IWBs are strapless, I like to keep them as low-profile and simple as possible (besides, there are damn few IWBs with retention mechanisms anyway). My OWBs usually have thumb breaks, not so much because I'm worried someone's gonna try to grab my gun, but because the OWB method of carry has your gun sticking out a little more from your hip, the grip can occaisonally catch on stuff and try to draw itself out (this is most often a problem with getting in the passenger side of automobiles).
I think open carry, whether uniformed or otherwise, mandates a serious retention holster (i.e. a thumb break isn't good enough). Back in my armed private security days I ran a 92FS in a Safariland SLS rig, I'd use nothing less for personal open carry if I ever had a mind to do it (and it were legal in TX).
I recommend at least some type of retention, whether that be a "pinch" system, a Kydex molding that locks the pistol in place until draw, something. A few ground scuffles will make one a believer, the last thing you want popping free in that situation is your handgun. That is the reality of my day-to-day, for others bumping and jostling in the subway, slipping or falling due to weather, getting in and out of cars on a regular basis, public restrooms, etc. will show the shortcomings of a simple, no retention holster used daily.
NCPatrolAR
05-21-10, 06:46
When carrying concealed I prefer no manual retention devices since I view the gun being out of sight as a type of retention. For overt carry I prefer some type of retention and usually opt for a Safariland ALS holster when available.
SWATcop556
05-21-10, 12:38
I recommend at least some type of retention, whether that be a "pinch" system, a Kydex molding that locks the pistol in place until draw, something. A few ground scuffles will make one a believer, the last thing you want popping free in that situation is your handgun. That is the reality of my day-to-day, for others bumping and jostling in the subway, slipping or falling due to weather, getting in and out of cars on a regular basis, public restrooms, etc. will show the shortcomings of a simple, no retention holster used daily.
I consider molded kydex or kydex with friction locks to be no retention. A retention holster to me is one where I must push a button, lever, snap, hood, etc before drawing the pistol.
Outlander Systems
05-21-10, 12:48
I consider molded kydex or kydex with friction locks to be no retention. A retention holster to me is one where I must push a button, lever, snap, hood, etc before drawing the pistol.
This. I ditched my "open-top" kydex holster, after seeing my USP hanging from a vine after a casual stroll through the bush.
Retention to me goes beyond just keeping Joe Q. Scumbag from pilfering it from me while I'm in the checkout.
So what do y'all recommend for a strong side hip retention holster? For me it would be an OWB and would be concealed. What models out there have the best balance between draw speed and yet still is locked in firmly.
Outlander Systems
05-21-10, 14:34
What kind of gat you sportin'?
Visible OWB requires solid retention - preferably that doesn't allow a single motion to draw (SLS/ALS comes to mind)
OWB Concealed still requires some retention, but I'm not a fan or running anything over the rear of the pistol - I'm going the kydex retention for this.
IWB the retention imo only needs to be for keeping the pistol on you, and in a consistent location that facilitates drawing the weapon.
Kydex or Leather?
So what do y'all recommend for a strong side hip retention holster? For me it would be an OWB and would be concealed. What models out there have the best balance between draw speed and yet still is locked in firmly.
The Safariland ALS has a good reputation.
M&P 9 FS and sometimes a G19
What kind of gat you sportin'?
Preferably kydex.
IrishLuck I actually have an ALS for my M&P and (at least on my body) it sits too low on my hip making it harder to conceal.
Visible OWB requires solid retention - preferably that doesn't allow a single motion to draw (SLS/ALS comes to mind)
OWB Concealed still requires some retention, but I'm not a fan or running anything over the rear of the pistol - I'm going the kydex retention for this.
IWB the retention imo only needs to be for keeping the pistol on you, and in a consistent location that facilitates drawing the weapon.
Kydex or Leather?
Hey fellas. My instructor and I have a friendly disagreement. He believes in a concealment holster with retenton and I do not. Keep in mind that he spent 23 years as a Tampa LEO and I completely understand that carrying in uniform retention makes perfect sense. But my argument is that under concealment I want to keep it as simple and as fast as possible. Currently I run an M&P 9fs with a Raven Phantom. I do understand his argument that if I ever run into an altercation that involves someone struggling with me and discovering that I have a gun and attempts to grab it a retention holster does offer a very good advantage. On the other hand a non-retention holster offers me greater speed and simplicity under duress. What say you guys? Which one do you prefer? Thanks,
-Jax
I agree with you, a minimal amount of retention via friction like a supertuck/phantom is perfect for CCW. If you are ever going to open carry, I would go with at least a thumb break or something like a serpa, but it sounds like you recognize that as well..
I only carry concealed. Inside the waistband, I use molded Kydex for thinness and rigidity. Outside the waistband, I use open-top, molded leather for better concealment and better ability to retain the gun in a hand to hand struggle.
If someone grabs a gun holstered in many plastic OWB holsters, they can gain control of the gun by simply pushing down and/or pulling away and breaking the holster. This risk is minimized with an IWB holster, which positions a (hopefully double thickness) belt around the outside of the holster. As long as you can keep the gun in your holster, you are keeping control of your gun.
If retention is a concern, use leather even for IWB carry. Kydex is forgiving of improper draw technique. Drawing from a properly molded leather holster requires pulling the gun out in a direction relatively close to parallel to the holster. This may not be so easy for your attacker to do in a wrestling match, buying you time to keep control of your gun. Some of my acquaintances who train by grappling with holstered dummy guns prefer leather for this reason.
A thumb break is not difficult for an attacker to hit if he has grabbed your gun. I would not count on this to protect the gun. In fact, I'd be less confident in the retention of a poorly fitted holster with a retention strap than a well fitted open top holster.
Not only have I found open top to be easier to draw from, but it is difficult to find truly good quality holsters with retention straps and with belt loops that match my belt width exactly. Better quality concealment holsters all seem to be open top.
I like the idea of a thumb break to keep the gun from falling out if im fighting with someone and i end up falling down. Many fights end up on the ground. The thumb break is not just to prevent a gun grab.
tracker722
05-21-10, 20:58
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I carry concealed. That doesn't mean i will never be mugged or jumped by some lowlife. And if that lowlife is not armed, then i cant use my pistol to defend myself, and its hand to hand. Retention becomes important in this scenario, however rare it may be.
Outlander Systems
05-21-10, 21:22
I carry concealed. That doesn't mean i will never be mugged or jumped by some lowlife. And if that lowlife is not armed, then i cant use my pistol to defend myself, and its hand to hand. Retention becomes important in this scenario, however rare it may be.
I agree with this. My caveat to anyone seeking a holster with some level of retention, is not to use that as a crutch. Approach the holster's restraining system as a "speed bump" for bad guys. It isn't a substitute for physical retention techniques.
Despite not being a huge fan of Serpa holsters, I've always appreciated the style of onboard retention. It's not something Jimothy J. Crackhead is going to be able to snatch without a struggle.
Agree. Ive been meaning to get my butt to some Krav Maga sessions.
tracker722
05-22-10, 15:31
A retention holster, (simple thumb-break), can be a practice of mental masturbation if you believe thugs don't know how to defeat it. They do, and can access your weapon as quickly as you. In fact, there are LE training videos showing just that. And, its' not limited to retention level 2 holsters, but retention level 3s as well.
Weapon retention skills must be learned and practiced on a regular basis. It is a perishable skill with emphasis on the perish part.
A retention holster, (simple thumb-break), can be a practice of mental masturbation if you believe thugs don't know how to defeat it. They do, and can access your weapon as quickly as you. In fact, there are LE training videos showing just that. And, its' not limited to retention level 2 holsters, but retention level 3s as well.
Weapon retention skills must be learned and practiced on a regular basis. It is a perishable skill with emphasis on the perish part.
I agree with your points, but i am thinking of a situation where i have my pistol concealed AIWB. The thug does not know i have the gun, and he decides to jump/mug me. So now i am fighting with him and i dont want the pistol falling out, during the struggle.
tracker722
05-22-10, 15:52
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I would rather spend a bunch on quality, and have the satisfaction of knowing i have a product that meets all of its requirements.
tracker722
05-22-10, 16:08
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RogerinTPA
05-22-10, 20:06
When carrying concealed I prefer no manual retention devices since I view the gun being out of sight as a type of retention. For overt carry I prefer some type of retention and usually opt for a Safariland ALS holster when available.
Agreed.
When carrying concealed I prefer no manual retention devices since I view the gun being out of sight as a type of retention. For overt carry I prefer some type of retention and usually opt for a Safariland ALS holster when available.
I also agree, and use the same system (ALS) when OC'ing (work).
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