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7.62NATO
05-21-10, 08:59
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-20005458-38.html


House votes to expand national DNA arrest database
by Declan McCullagh

Millions of Americans arrested for but not convicted of crimes will likely have their DNA forcibly extracted and added to a national database, according to a bill approved by the U.S. House of Representatives on Tuesday.

By a 357 to 32 vote, the House approved legislation that will pay state governments to require DNA samples, which could mean drawing blood with a needle, from adults "arrested for" certain serious crimes. Not one Democrat voted against the database measure, which would hand out about $75 million to states that agree to make such testing mandatory.

"We should allow law enforcement to use all the technology available to them...to reduce expensive and unjust false convictions, bring closure to victims by solving cold cases, better identify criminals, and keep those who commit violent crime from walking the streets," said Rep. Harry Teague, the New Mexico Democrat who sponsored the bill.

But civil libertarians say DNA samples should be required only from people who have been convicted of crimes, and argue that if there is probable cause to believe that someone is involved in a crime, a judge can sign a warrant allowing a blood sample or cheek swab to be forcibly extracted.

"It's wrong to treat someone as guilty before they're convicted," says Jim Harper, director of information policy studies at the Cato Institute. "It inverts the concept of innocent until proven guilty."

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and the Democratic leadership scheduled Tuesday's debate on the bill--called the Katie Sepich Enhanced DNA Collection Act of 2010--using a procedure known as the "suspension calendar" intended to be reserved for non-controversial legislation.

"Suspension of the rules is supposed to be for praising the winner of the NCAA championship or renaming Post Offices," Harper says. "Things like collecting Americans' DNA are supposed to be fully debated in Congress."

In a surprise move, as the U.S. Congress was expanding the FBI's DNA database, the U.K.'s new coalition government was pledging sharp curbs on its own databases.

Created in the mid-1990s, the UK National DNA Database originally was supposed to store data on convicted criminals, but grew to include records on more than 5 million Britons, including many who were only arrested on suspicion of a crime.

U.K. Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg promised once-in-a-century privacy reforms in a speech on Wednesday: "We won't hold your Internet and e-mail records when there is just no reason to do so. CCTV will be properly regulated, as will the DNA database, with restrictions on the storage of innocent people's DNA. Britain must not be a country where our children grow up so used to their liberty being infringed that they accept it without question."

Background


The United States has followed a similar pattern: first, DNA was collected from convicted criminals, and then the practice was expanded to sweep in Americans arrested on suspicion of a crime.

A 2000 federal law called the DNA Analysis Backlog Elimination Act required that DNA samples be taken from anyone convicted of or on probation for certain serious crimes. This was challenged in court on Fourth and Fifth Amendment grounds, but a federal appeals court upheld (PDF) the DNA collection requirement as constitutional.

A second bill that President Bush signed in January 2006 said any federal police agency could "collect DNA samples from individuals who are arrested." Anyone who fails to cooperate is, under federal law, guilty of an additional crime.

In addition, federal law and subsequent regulations from the Department of Justice authorize any means "reasonably necessary to detain, restrain, and collect a DNA sample from an individual who refuses to cooperate in the collection of the sample." The cheek swab or blood tests can be outsourced to "private entities."

A May 2009 ruling from a federal judge in California was the first decision to say that police can forcibly take DNA samples from Americans who have been arrested but not convicted of a crime. U.S. Magistrate Judge Gregory Hollows said the requirement of DNA-sampling felony arrestees did not violate the Fourth Amendment's prohibition of "unreasonable searches and seizures"--but noted that he took no position on whether or not DNA sampling for misdemeanor offenses was reasonable and constitutional.

But that law applied only to federal agencies, and the bill approved this week would provide a strong incentive for state and local governments to follow suit.

If states do follow suit, it's difficult to overstate how many more DNA samples would flood into the FBI's Convicted Offender DNA Index System (CODIS) database. Federal agencies arrested about 133,000 people in 2004, according to data compiled by the Urban Institute under a Justice Department grant.

But local and state governments arrested nearly 14 million Americans that year, not counting traffic offenses, according to FBI data.

Rep. Teague's proposal would extend DNA sampling and testing to anyone arrested on suspicion of burglary or attempted burglary; aggravated assault; murder or attempted murder; manslaughter; sex acts that can be punished by imprisonment for more than one year; and sex offenses against minors. The attorney general would be required to report to Congress which states have and have not signed up for the DNA database.

Rep. Dave Reichert (R-Wash.), a former sheriff who spoke on the House floor in favor of the bill, said the measure is supported by the National Sheriffs' Association, the National District Attorney's Association, and the Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network (RAINN).

The legislation would allow states to receive 15 percent "bonuses" from the Edward Byrne Memorial Justice Assistance Grant Program. The program gave out $165 million in local funding and $318 million in state funding for fiscal year 2009, not counting stimulus grants.

"We're strongly opposed to expanding collection," says Marc Rotenberg, executive director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center in Washington, D.C. He suggested the U.S. should follow the lead of the European Court of Human Rights, which ruled two years ago that holding DNA samples from people arrested but not convicted of a crime violates their privacy rights.

Moose-Knuckle
05-21-10, 09:16
And now we enter the realm of speculation and conjecture...

Dont worry the SCOTUS and ACLU will tell us what's best for us.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

Belmont31R
05-21-10, 09:36
I personally think being forced to give DNA is forcing someone to bear witness against themselves which is protected by the 5th amendment. The "evidence" is within your body just like your thoughts are. Now if they follow someone around, and say, collect a soda can someone drank out of then thats just collecting evidence like anything else you find 'laying around'.


But these sorts of things are always billed as "another tool for law enforcement to fight crime" so if you are against it you're for letting criminals off the hook (or so they say). Im sure police work would be a lot easier if our rights just went away....:D

Irish
05-21-10, 10:36
Boiling frogs...

Complication
05-21-10, 11:22
I personally think being forced to give DNA is forcing someone to bear witness against themselves which is protected by the 5th amendment.

Not that I know anything on the subject, but I thought the specific argument against it was based on the 4th amendment (i.e. that collecting DNA without "reasonable" cause would be considered illegal search and seizure.

At least, that's what TV has taught me.

Belmont31R
05-21-10, 11:29
Not that I know anything on the subject, but I thought the specific argument against it was based on the 4th amendment (i.e. that collecting DNA without "reasonable" cause would be considered illegal search and seizure.

At least, that's what TV has taught me.



Then they just get a court order, and thus you have "due process". Even then its like getting a court order to testify against yourself. Could you be held in contempt for pleading the 5th?

thopkins22
05-21-10, 11:39
There was a case either here in TX or LA where some thug tried to rob a home and the homeowner shot him in the face with a .25acp or some such low powered round. I believe it was discussed here. Anyway it penetrated through the skin, but failed to penetrate his skull(it struck him in the forehead.)

A few days later he showed up at an area hospital due to a raging infection, but when they called the police due to it being a gunshot wound he refused to let them remove it because the bullet in his face would tie him to the robbery and the homeowner's barrel.

A court order to retrieve the bullet was issued, though I'm not sure if there were any challenges to the constitutionality of that though. Probably not considering I bet he had a public defender.

Complication
05-21-10, 11:41
Then they just get a court order, and thus you have "due process". Even then its like getting a court order to testify against yourself. Could you be held in contempt for pleading the 5th?

I'm not sure of the 5th amendment implications of DNA but I doubt that it would be considered testifying against yourself. I think the problem revolves around whose DNA they keep in a database.

Currently the idea is that we've only got guilty peoples' DNA _ON FILE_. Yeah, in the course of the investigation and trial of someone who is eventually found innocent they collect and test their DNA, but I don't think they put it in a DNA database (or at least aren't supposed to).

This would expand legitimate entries into a DNA database from people "CONVICTED and found GUILTY" to "was arrested this one time by a cop who just didn't like the way they looked."

So while there are a whole set of issues about giving DNA and having reasonable cause, I think the BIG issue here is who goes in the permanent database.

I'd be less concerned (but still very damned concerned) if they took arrestees DNA and then destroyed the samples of those found innocent or released.

Those are just my entirely uneducated thoughts on the matter, though.

Kevin
05-21-10, 12:23
We photo/fingerprint everyone arrested for a crime...whether they are cooperative or not...what's the difference?

Buck
05-21-10, 12:29
DNA = Fingerprints for the 21st Century... I think you will see more and more of this in the commercial sector as well... Anywhre you used to leave a thumbprint...

B

The_War_Wagon
05-21-10, 12:38
Watch Minority Report sometime - see what our kids have to look forward to. :( That, and A Scanner Darkly.

Complication
05-21-10, 12:39
We photo/fingerprint everyone arrested for a crime...whether they are cooperative or not...what's the difference?

Yeah, but people who are arrested and not charged or later found innocent--do their photos and fingerprints go into a national database? (Maybe, I don't know)

Also, DNA presents some serious problems. The first is that DNA matches aren't matches at all but rather matches of markers. That's be like matching photos by saying, "Brown eyes, check. Blond hair, check. Pale skin, check. These people must be the same person!" I believe, based on the numbers and locations of these markers, you're statistically guaranteed, pretty much to have an "identical" match in your own state, let alone the country, let alone the world (I've read a few articles on it that I can't find offhand so take that with a huge grain of salt).

Anyhow, the question I have, at least, is "What business does the government (at any level) have keeping my DNA on file if I am not a convicted criminal?" Take it and test it to clear my name... okay. Take it and keep it just because I'm arrested and later released? Hrmm... no thank you. A bunch of my information is on file with the DMV because I wanted a driver's license. A bunch of my information is on file with the IRS because I have to pay taxes. A bunch of my DNA is on file in a massive identity database even if I've never been charged with a crime? I'd prefer not.

The other problem with DNA is the CSI effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Csi_effect). One difference, at least, is that people understand, to a certain extent, the limitations of photos and fingerprints. A lot of people not in the forensics business (read: everyone on a jury) just sort of zone out when they hear the word "DNA" and assume that the trial will wrap up in the next 40 minutes with breaks for commercials.

Whether or not it's current practice, I'd like (administrative) photos and fingerprints of people arrested and never charged (or found innocent) to be destroyed (obviously this would make exceptions for fingerprints or photos on or in pieces of evidence). DNA just being a whole new level of scary to the equation.

SteyrAUG
05-21-10, 12:49
We photo/fingerprint everyone arrested for a crime...whether they are cooperative or not...what's the difference?


Kinda how I see it.

But at the same time can't you refuse blood and breathalyser tests?

SteyrAUG
05-21-10, 12:50
Yeah, but people who are arrested and not charged or later found innocent--do their photos and fingerprints go into a national database? (Maybe, I don't know)


Yes, they do.

11B101ABN
05-21-10, 12:56
Kinda how I see it.

But at the same time can't you refuse blood and breathalyser tests?

In some states, dependant on the offense. Some require a forced draw.

Moose-Knuckle
05-21-10, 13:30
But at the same time can't you refuse blood and breathalyser tests?


The state of Texas is always working at getting a Mandatory Blood Draw for DWI cases. Texas leads the nation in DWI fatalities.

As of now there are certain counties that require a blood draw no matter if someone is injured/killed or not. But the law as is, if you kill or casue Serious Bodily Injury (SBI) a blood draw is mandatory.

Brethalysers and Intoxilyzers can be refused with but your DL will be suspended by TXDPS for a six month stint.

mr_smiles
05-21-10, 17:13
It's a dumb idea, and will result in a lot of innocent people going to jail. I take the word of Alec Jeffreys over any other experts in the field, seeing how he's the one who invented to process of dna profiling.

FromMyColdDeadHand
05-21-10, 17:22
It's all well and good till they run the DNA at the crime scene, see the perp is predisposed to diabetes. They correlate this with the national health care database and cell phone tracking information and you get a knock on your door, or an email to report to prison. Or if things go the way they are, a really hefty fine paid to the state to make it all go away.

What happens when they start to look at the DNA database for markers towards anti-social behavior or propensity towards violence. Correlate that with cell phone tracking data.

The problem I have with all this CCTV imaging, Cellphone tracking, DNA profiling is that it makes it too easy to catch people. I think our laws were written with the unconscious fact that it would take a cop to put in time to actually convict someone. Most infractions will go unpunished, and the smaller ones that do will be add ons for more serious offenses. We allow padding, in that the speed limit is 55 but most people pulled over will be going over 65.

Now we are getting to the point where you'll be able to cite people for every single traffic infraction they make. Our society is based on people breaking the law all the time. Ever drive in rush hour in So Cal? Imagine the nightmare if everyone drove the speed limit? If you start to make it so that we become a 56mph citation society, you are going to have to change the laws to be looser, or you are going to get a more cynical and mean society. Ever get in a situation where there is hyper enforcement of the rules- people start to act pretty squirrelly.

Safetyhit
05-21-10, 18:20
DNA = Fingerprints for the 21st Century...


Sums it up rather well. As a non-LEO I have also reliably heard we better get used to it.

dhrith
05-21-10, 18:58
Well, we'd love to hire you based on your resume and qualifications. ......but we found this leaked DNA analysis on the internet and see you're pre-disposed to anger management issues and cancer of the liver so we're going to have to pass.

For those otherwise convicted I'd say there's valid argument. But prior just to beef up some all inclusive database?:eek:

Because we all know how well the government protects those laptops of SSN's already right?

Belmont31R
05-21-10, 19:03
Well, we'd love to hire you based on your resume and qualifications. ......but we found this leaked DNA analysis on the internet and see you're pre-disposed to anger management issues and cancer of the liver so we're going to have to pass.

For those otherwise convicted I'd say there's valid argument. But prior just to beef up some all inclusive database?:eek:

Because we all know how well the government protects those laptops of SSN's already right?


I think most states have laws against DNA discrimination already.


Credit checks should also be barred from employment consideration given that "credit" is a scheme to keep people in debt, and paying interest. For instance a person with crappy credit history will have a better rating than someone with no credit history because they dont live off credit.

Palmguy
05-21-10, 19:23
Oh, you'd like to purchase a firearm? Ok, let me just run a DNA background check on you real quick...

Ah, I'm sorry sir, it appears that your DNA profile in the National Healthcare Database shows a predisposition towards violence and aggression. Your application to purchase a firearm has been denied.

Have a nice day.

Belmont31R
05-21-10, 19:27
Oh, you'd like to purchase a firearm? Ok, let me just run a DNA background check on you real quick...

Ah, I'm sorry sir, it appears that your DNA profile in the National Healthcare Database shows a predisposition towards violence and aggression. Your application to purchase a firearm has been denied.

Have a nice day.



Sounds crazy but our esteemed AG Holder already wants the NICS system tied in with the no fly list which doesn't require any due process to be placed in.


These are the types of people we are dealing with. They want rights to go away, and government (with them in charge) to decide who gets to do what. Rights are in name only given only to those who toe the line, and promote the government image.


Its the same all throughout the world, and in history. Its undeniable. As technology increases they will just use it as another tool of tyranny and oppression against Americans.

tracker722
05-21-10, 19:39
************************

dfsutton
05-21-10, 20:32
Is this Constitutional

My question to you would be, "What have you seen that makes you think the current administration gives a flip about the Constitution?"

I'm not surprised by anything that happens now.

Kchen986
05-21-10, 22:31
Gattaca.

DaBears_85
05-21-10, 23:16
And now we enter the realm of speculation and conjecture...

Dont worry the SCOTUS and ACLU will tell us what's best for us.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

That's good, because I for one am getting sick and tired of having to think for myself... It hurts. Luckily we have these fine folks that have our best interests at heart to make these important decisions for us. :)

mr_smiles
05-21-10, 23:35
My question to you would be, "What have you seen that makes you think the current administration gives a flip about the Constitution?"

I'm not surprised by anything that happens now.
Last time I checked we haven't had a government that gave a shit about the constitution in over a century. It's all been about exploitation of fear and lobbying public money for private companies. It's just the way things are, it just took some one who's open about it to piss people off.

OTO27
05-22-10, 00:52
We photo/fingerprint everyone arrested for a crime...whether they are cooperative or not...what's the difference?
Thats what I was thinking, at least here in Texas is what we do. The only reason we dont do this DNA thing is budget cuts... hehe