View Full Version : We are thinking of removing the GD forum
If you are in favor of this, answer yes in the poll. If not, answer no.
I guess it's just the smart ass in me but I have to say...
Answer Know or No?
I guess it's just the smart ass in me but I have to say...
Answer Know or No?
Long day. Thanks for the correction.
I like the news and politics. I think the BS needs to be moderated out.
chiefhubbard
05-25-10, 16:03
I vote for No.
Long day. Thanks for the correction.
Everyone is allowed one mistake right? Have a good day.
I like the news and politics. I think the BS needs to be moderated out.
I voted Yes simply because in order to moderate the BS out you would need way too many folks focusing on that and it's not needed. There are plenty of GD forums around. My 2 cents.
thopkins22
05-25-10, 16:06
I voted no, I think a stricter emphasis on keeping general discussion things in GD would be superior. The membership should be expected to keep things relatively civil here, and first hand on the technical side.
There are things that I believe would worm their way into the technical forums without it's existence, and it's significantly less appalling to see BS posted there. There are other things that aren't technical in any way, but that I believe have a place on M4C. I also imagine advertisers appreciate the traffic GD creates.
ETA:With that said, it's encouraging to see that the site staff and moderators are determined to help M4C return to it's roots.
Even though I'm party responsible for this movement, I actually say "no".
What I would prefer is something like a 200 post count required to post there. I think that 200 is high enough that nobody is just going to spam the forum with "+1" just to post there, and if they were that would be rather obvious (and sadly pathetic) and they would be banned.
I enjoy discussing general topics with those that I "know" here from time to time on a limited basis, like the gearheads thread, but am less interested in some dickwad that wanders in, posts a question about which YHM rail looks cooler for his safe queen in the AR section and then waddles over to GD to engage the regulars with inane shit.
spamsammich
05-25-10, 16:07
I voted Yes simply because in order to moderate the BS out you would need way too many folks focusing on that and it's not needed. There are plenty of GD forums around. My 2 cents.
I completely agree, I don't see GD contributing to the strength of this site which is technical information on the AR platform and other firearms.
thopkins22
05-25-10, 16:13
What I would prefer is something like a 200 post count required to post there. I think that 200 is high enough that nobody is just going to spam the forum with "+1" just to post there, and if they were that would be rather obvious (and sadly pathetic) and they would be banned.
Rob's idea seems like an ideal solution to me. Those who remain through 200 posts in other forums are much more likely to be civil and have an understanding of the primary focus of M4C which is No-BS first hand information.
I vote no because this forum is pretty much the only one I frequent. It is nice to get technical information as well as the odds and ends you get in GD.
Pathfinder Ops
05-25-10, 16:20
The GD seem rife with BS in my opinion. Hell I may even be guilty of starting a thread or two seen by others as BS. Hopefully not.
While I get the idea of having a general discussion area it seems the preponderance of topics most likely to get peoples hackles up is the GD.
Having an area that is a repository for randomness may well invite foolish BS. On the other hand its also a place some folks who feel the need to just be social or heard or genuinely have an off topic question can seek input from others who's opinions they respect.
Therefore the question becomes; is it worth having? In my opinion.....NO.
I can easily be nauseated and or chatty on another site. This one is one where I come for an elevated intellect. Not general babble about whatever.
If you have data, questions or input on the given topic areas then go there search them for your answer if that's the case, or start a thread of value or (Heaven forbid) respond intelligently to threads already up and running.
One hates to mistakenly create a snobbish forum ........... Or do they? Is there anything wrong with having a standard? Is there anything wrong with elitism?
This site is primarily a resource, not a social network. Or at least that's what I felt it was and is why I joined up.
I voted YES to dumping the GD. Because of posts like these:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=25571
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=54659
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=54657
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=54698
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=50357
Car talk, Robot Dogs, ObamaCare, The oil spill in the Gulf.....WTF!!!!??? The list obviously goes on and is more than likely the reason for this vote/ thread.
Two questions do need to be asked here however:
1. If the Title suggests something stupid; WHY ARE YOU READING IT?
2. Isn't this like a TV? If you don't like what you're looking at change it.
I could get behind the idea of keeping the GD and implementing Rob_S's idea about the 200 post count minimum. Hell I'm less than the 200 post count and I would like to think that all 160 some posts were at least worth reading if not helpful. Make them earn it.
And definitely bounce the "+1" BS'ers.
Im an FNG, I know just enough to stick my nose in where it dont belong, might be doing so here. I think the GD forum is a good place for talking about current events, news, politics etc. Where would Irishluck post about all the people using guns legally to defend themselves (and the idiots)? I think M4C is the best place for defensive firearms, tactics, and training, and will remain so thanks to our SMEs, IPs, LEOs, Marines, Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Coasties and just plain private citizen members. We have boneheads (me?) but everywhere does, I think that there should be a place to B.S. around the fire with a beer so to speak, with like minded people, if thats not GD where does it belong? Does it even belong here in the first place?, I think so, everyone should be able to speak freely and have a place to do so in especially here, thats GD. Freedom of speech people.
William B.
05-25-10, 16:28
I completely agree, I don't see GD contributing to the strength of this site which is technical information on the AR platform and other firearms.
I agree with you.
There are also users that you rarely, if ever see outside of the GD forum. Why join a gun forum if you don't want to talk about firearms? I'm not trying to knock anybody. Just a thought.
I vote yes. Can we keep the "Dumbest Things Overheard at the Gun Shop" thread, though? I get a kick out of it.
I vote no and I really like rob s' solution to the problem.
spamsammich
05-25-10, 16:36
...Freedom of speech people.
Does not exist on a privately owned message board.
I agree with you.
There are also users that you rarely, if ever see outside of the GD forum. Why join a gun forum if you don't want to talk about firearms? I'm not trying to knock anybody. Just a thought.
I vote yes. Can we keep the "Dumbest Things Overheard at the Gun Shop" thread, though? I get a kick out of it.
Well, in my case for all the techinical stuff, what I don't already know, I search and read, there is no reason for me to post. So, most of my posts are in GD, however I am not and have never been on any other forum a "+1er". Sure, I've typed it a few times along with a quote if I completely agree with someone's eloquently, and succinctly posted response, but I don't think that is frequent for me.
As a new member, I think the GD forum here is a great deal more valuable than some firearm specific sections on other forums due to the high number of members who know what they are talking about and putting their personal experience in it. Threads about conflicts, politics, laws, etc. have much more meaning when you get the input of experienced members without violating OPSEC.
I also voted no. I like rob's idea. I was definitely one of those people with there head up their @$$ when I first joined on here and it took me a while to realize that.
I also think that people's responses to the stupid posts in the GD forum are a way for folks to learn what NOT to do on here. Sure it's annoying, but it's not that much of an inconvenience and if you don't want to read it, then don't.
I don't know if it would be possible to find a fairly light punishment for doing something amazingly stupid (personal attacks etc.). Something like getting banned for a week, say. That way people will have a chance to learn from their mistakes. Just a thought.
Erik
I voted no...we are living in interesting times and it is very cool to discuss events with this crowd. I would miss the opinions & some of the best posts are by the mods.
Hope you reconsider.
Paul
I'm a recent addition to the carbine world and at this stage I'm still building up my knowledge. I don't think that I can currently contribute to most technical discussions or gear talk in a way that is productive. I don't want to flood those threads with off-topic or factually incorrect posts, so GD represents my main chance to be a part of the community and helps me to 'find my way' around.
I guess for some people, that is exactly the reason why GD should be removed - to encourage us newer people to get out and involved in the technical discussions, rather than caught up with inane chatter. I can understand that, but I would respectfully disagree. The benefits to me outweigh the disadvantages. I can't speak for others though :D
GD also serves a more specific purpose for me. I'm shooting in a different country, so I don't have a perspective on many of the issues that you guys might take for granted. Some of these odd 'off topic' threads are highly illuminating to an outsider, normally still relevant to firearms and without the hysteria generally associated with Arfcom.
...everyone should be able to speak freely and have a place to do so in especially here, thats GD. Freedom of speech people.
Whether general discussion exists on this forum or not, speaking freely has consequences. You can certainly call someone an asshole, or admit that you are going to demolish your neighbor's mailbox tonight, but expect to have your post censored, and a warning issued.
The concept of freedom of speech only applies to the Federal and State governments. This is a semi-private gun forum, we can abridged your right to speak freely because we wrote the rules. :D
I voted to keep it. While I don't read every thread on it I do enjoy having it here for the odd post regarding something I've missed elsewhere online...Due to the fact most other GD boards are hell holes.
Jay Cunningham
05-25-10, 17:02
This is the best thread I've ever seen in GD!
:cool:
.... most other GD boards are hell holes.
All general discussion areas are hell holes. There is a reason we are discussing deleting it from this forum.
If it stays, I suspect it will be a very different landscape as our staff gets more involved there.
I think the 200 post idea is good, but think it would generate alot of +1 posts in the other forums from people trying to boost their post count.
I do think GD should be moved further down under all the firearm related discussion forums. Maybe even to the bottom and possibly make GD password protected. Same rules still apply of course. I really like the balance of moderation as it is now.
Having moderated a different non-gun related forum for over 7 years, I can assure you that the deletion of the GD forum will not solve the problem, it'll simply migrate it to the rest of the forum. People who post crap* don't care that there isn't a specific forum to do so.
*Crap being things not related to the forum header.
Jay Cunningham
05-25-10, 17:11
Having moderated a different non-gun related forum for over 7 years, I can assure you that the deletion of the GD forum will not solve the problem, it'll simply migrate it to the rest of the forum. People who post crap* don't care that there isn't a specific forum to do so.
*Crap being things not related to the forum header.
Then what is a possible solution?
To all: it's easy to bitch about problems, but a better approach is to mention a problem and a possible solution in the same breath.
Just sayin'...
Having moderated a different non-gun related forum for over 7 years, I can assure you that the deletion of the GD forum will not solve the problem, it'll simply migrate it to the rest of the forum. .
I tend to agree with this. If a guy has something he really wants to say, he is going to say it. That could crap-up the technical areas of the forum.
Voted No..
Sometimes there is interesting stuff there...
Then what is a possible solution?
To all: it's easy to bitch about problems, but a better approach is to mention a problem and a possible solution in the same breath.
Just sayin'...
Possible solution? I offered one up in the other thread related to this decision. May not have been the best, but I'm a firm believer in what you're saying. Either offer a solution or quit bitching. Personally, I like rob_s's idea. That or you just vet people before allowing them to post, which I can tell you with a high degree of experience is a long arduous process that moderators do not want. Sometimes, if there's crap... it's best to contain the crap so that the bread and butter aren't crapified. (not eloquent, but true) With things like this, in my experience, it's a matter of mitigation, not elimination.
Jay Cunningham
05-25-10, 17:21
This is interesting... it almost sounds like people are voting to keep GD intentionally as a shit magnet...
QuietShootr
05-25-10, 17:21
I agree with rob. I do like discussing some things with other semi-known people, and it's nice to be able to do that.
That said: I think the 200 posts before you're allowed to post in GD is a good idea, especially if it's coupled with some stronger spankings for posting drivel in the tech forums. Hopefully, that will weed out the shitheads before they are able to start spamming GD. What about making it a closed forum until you hit X number of posts?
I think a hard-and-fast rule about what's allowed and what's not in GD is not a good idea, because zero tolerance is zero thought (i.e. if JW posts something that struck him funny that he thought others might enjoy, he ought to get a little more slack than an FNG whose sole contribution to the firearms community as a whole is something like Mr.-I-Don't-Know-What-Zeroing-a-Weapon-Means's illustrious post earlier today.).
Does not exist on a privately owned message board.
Whether general discussion exists on this forum or not, speaking freely has consequences. You can certainly call someone an asshole, or admit that you are going to demolish your neighbor's mailbox tonight, but expect to have your post censored, and a warning issued.
The concept of freedom of speech only applies to the Federal and State governments. This is a semi-private gun forum, we can abridged your right to speak freely because we wrote the rules. :D
You guys gave us the opportunity to vote on it, That shows how good our staff and site owner is, I think our members on average (gees I may eat this one) are better people and more knowledgeable than other forums. Yes there is stupid stuff that gets exspoused but is generally delt with in a very professional manner, it should not lead to the irradication of a forum, IMO.
Then what is a possible solution?
To all: it's easy to bitch about problems, but a better approach is to mention a problem and a possible solution in the same breath.
Just sayin'...
I think zhurdan has a good point & would be nice to keep the nonsense localized. The bad threads make it to page two pretty quick.
You guys run the forum...it's your playground & you have to deal with all us ding-dongs. I certainly would prefer to have a good thread whacked due to a troll / posting while drinking / etc than loose the gd all together.
Would it help if we assisted in reporting offensive / off topics or any posts that might head down hill?? The regulars should be able to assist in making M4 more self-moderating. I know I've been guilty of not addressing a loaded post, only to see it get ugly. Sorry.
This is interesting... it almost sounds like people are voting to keep GD intentionally as a shit magnet...
ouch, can i change my answer:D
not trying to sound ghey but the gd gives the forum it's character or soul...m4 doesn't put up with any crap in any other section, just make the gd even more so.:cool:;)
I say say remove it. GD inevitable becomes people's soap box for their personal issues and political ideologies. I come here for reliable information and informed opinions about guns, nothing else.
thopkins22
05-25-10, 17:34
I say say remove it. GD inevitable becomes people's soap box for their personal issues and political ideologies. I come here for reliable information and informed opinions about guns, nothing else.
So the thing I have a problem understanding is that if a better job is done policing the BS on the technical forums, how does the GD which is totally separate(or at least should be,) interfere with your M4C experience whatsoever?
of course there are other GD forums, but I think us m4 folk have a lot of the same interest and i enjoy reading most of the stuff in here. i vote to keep it.
theJanitor
05-25-10, 17:43
Would it help if we assisted in reporting offensive / off topics or any posts that might head down hill?? The regulars should be able to assist in making M4 more self-moderating.
I think this is the proper first step. F2S mentioned it in another thread. the strength and value of this forum are the members. if we can self-regulate and mentor, M4C has the best chance of improving.
yesterday, I wanted to report a thread that I thought was just a waste of bandwidth. So i clicked on the "report" icon. this is what was under the message box
"Note: This is ONLY to be used to report spam, advertising messages, and problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) posts. "
none of these applied, so I started a thread asking how we could handle these types of threads. if we ALL understand that we could report threads for being useless, AND GET OURSELVES REPORTED ON, maybe we would stop posting dumb things.
Personally, I like LF's architecture for off-topic things (Crusader Hall, and Team Room). it keeps the GD on even keel, most of the time
This is interesting... it almost sounds like people are voting to keep GD intentionally as a shit magnet...
Yep.
I'm not voting, because I'm torn. I like that all the dumb stuff gets dropped into GD. It means I don't have to read it. I think if GD wasn't there, it would spill over into other forums.
But, when I click "New posts", I wish the GD stuff didn't show up! :p
I like it. Lot of good read in it. Like one guy said, if you mess it on line somewhere, you may see it here in GD.
Just my $0.02!
So the thing I have a problem understanding is that if a better job is done policing the BS on the technical forums, how does the GD which is totally separate(or at least should be,) interfere with your M4C experience whatsoever?
doesn't matter. its a gun forum. I want to see gun stuff when i click on new posts, not politics.
Even though I'm party responsible for this movement, I actually say "no".
What I would prefer is something like a 200 post count required to post there. I think that 200 is high enough that nobody is just going to spam the forum with "+1" just to post there, and if they were that would be rather obvious (and sadly pathetic) and they would be banned.
I enjoy discussing general topics with those that I "know" here from time to time on a limited basis, like the gearheads thread, but am less interested in some dickwad that wanders in, posts a question about which YHM rail looks cooler for his safe queen in the AR section and then waddles over to GD to engage the regulars with inane shit.
+1
Sorry, just the smart ass in me....
Rob, you hit it on the head with this idea. I wouldn't necessarily ban the "+1'ers", unless it was a habit they couldn't break. A lot of the time, IMO, someone will wrap up a reply so well, that "+1" is appropriate. Of course it could be stated as "I agree", or some other verbiage.
By the time someone has matured enough (read 200 posts) they should have the tone of the forum down pretty well. This is one of only two forums that I frequent, simply because of the wealth of knowledge, the civil discussions and the range of opinions.
If this became a strictly technical board, it might be just a bit too dry. I've found out about a lot of current affairs (ie the resent mob "protest") that I might not have stumbled upon elsewhere.
So far as those who might migrate to this forum seeking quality information, but haven't gained enough experience in either life or AR's to avoid "inane shit", I've got mixed opinions on. We all at one time or another have asked the "stupid" question and I'm sure the veterans get tired of typing "search is your friend", but we all have to learn somehow. Those who only seek to validate their opinion seem to be addressed fairly quickly and in clearly stated manner by the members here. And those who are looking for advice receive excellent real world answers. Short of implementing some sort of vetting procedure before someone could post, I think you have to tolerate a certain level of "static". I was a moderator on a fairly large (15k+ member) forum and saw a lot of different personalities. Some mature, some immature. To me, the whole point of a forum, any forum, is the free exchange of ideas and opinions, inane or brilliant, insightful or repetitive.
Keep it. I think it's a great place to vent about todays top news stories or anything else that doesn't fit in another place. I disagree with Robs minimum post count to be able to post in gd because then you will start to see "+1" in just about every post across the board. make it like the leo forum with restricted access sort of, except kinda the opposite. everybody has access until a mod revokes it for violation of rules.
PdxMotoxer
05-25-10, 18:06
I think dumping GD would make this place less civil.
and with the little bad it would take away the good also.
Posts like share pic's of your pets, asking or advice or even sharing
a good joke amunst friends.
My suggestion after being a mod on another forum for a number of years
is to split political/religious topic's into their own section.
The you can rule that topic with an iron fist when things get outta hand.
and just let it be known that there is a strict NO BULLSHIT policy.
(no name calling, no personal attacks, keep it on or close to the OT, period)
I personally think taking the politics OUT of GD would make things lighter hearted and would promote growth and even friendship.
I personally like Grants topic a few weeks back about the wife being out of town and seeing pic's of his land, hot tub, ect.....
it was a fun post and no one got butthurt.
It would be a shame if those type posts had to go away just because
some can't control themselves when it come to stronger issues like
political/religious views.
(i know i have some f'ed up values when it comes to those subjects
so i try to keep them to myself).
Over @ M&P pistol i just stay out of that section and have actually
made a few friends over there.
juz my $.02 AND a possible solution that has seemed to work
on other boards that we're having the same issues and overheated
discussions turning arguments turning into " oh yah, well... my dad can beat up your dad".
RogerinTPA
05-25-10, 18:06
I voted no.
Rob_S has a good point about a minimum post count before being allowed into GD. There are some good threads posted but....there should be new set of "Rules before posting" which is thorough enough that no one goes over board and should be "self policed" by the members under the new rules, and should never be allowed to get out of hand. Mods and Staff have enough baby setting to do and don't need the overwhelming majority of their time, over watching GD. They should intervene "if" it is proven that the members participating in GD, can't self-police it under the new ROE, and goes sideways. Then warnings, suspensions, and bans handed out accordingly.
I like Rob's idea. I've ventured briefly onto TOS's GD and the level of stupidity far surpasses anything I've ever seen here. I like GD because we have alot of members/mods with great senses of humor and I think that would be lost. Also, I don't pay too much attention to the news anymore and I get alot of current events here. Finally, I like the self defense stories that Irish posts, and if we got rid of GD, I'd at least like to see a sub forum, possibly in Training and Tactics, for threads like these.
I've only been a member here for a couple weeks so my opinion is really irrelevant. In addition to the technical section I have been interested in some of the things in the GD section. Post such as Bajadores: They are here for real... by Hoploethos and of course the Dumbest things overheard at gun stores.
There are good and bad points for each decision. In the end, you have the magic buttons and won't hear me complain either way. I enjoy this site and and feel lucky to be a part of it.
Even though I'm party responsible for this movement, I actually say "no".
What I would prefer is something like a 200 post count required to post there. I think that 200 is high enough that nobody is just going to spam the forum with "+1" just to post there, and if they were that would be rather obvious (and sadly pathetic) and they would be banned.
I enjoy discussing general topics with those that I "know" here from time to time on a limited basis, like the gearheads thread, but am less interested in some dickwad that wanders in, posts a question about which YHM rail looks cooler for his safe queen in the AR section and then waddles over to GD to engage the regulars with inane shit.
Actually after thinking about it for a minute the 200 post count min sounds like an excellent idea. It gives a member a decent amount of time to get a good picture of just what the tolerance level of the board is, that being damn low. The arfcom turdburglers won't have the patience to stick around that long I'd believe, no, ...make that hope.
PdxMotoxer
05-25-10, 18:12
The only "issue" with the 200+ or "X" amount before you can post
might lead to 199 "spam" posts.
"ITA"... "wow your right thanks" and other such just putting "filler'
or even asking bullshit questions just so they can get their post count up.
I may be wrong (would be far from the first or the last time...;) lol)
just sayin.........
Mission Statement
The purpose of M4Carbine.net is to provide a forum to share professional and technical information to the shooting community. The forum is open to military, law enforcement, and recreational shooters
I voted yes, mainly because I do agree with the statement.
Keeping that in mind--what good does the current GD do other than be a gossip shop.
And I would hold that the votes reflect the market share--I wouldn't have seen this if it wasn't for the mod topic on it. Which means the yes's probably won't be as heavy in here.
John_Wayne777
05-25-10, 18:18
I think the 200 post idea is good, but think it would generate alot of +1 posts in the other forums from people trying to boost their post count.
We would happily make that an infraction and mercilessly crush their account for doing so.
The spillover thing is part of the conversation. If someone wants to bring abortion into a thread about an offering from Noveske, we will happily eject them from the board with extreme prejudice.
What drew me to M4Carbine.net in the first place was the level of technical information and the enlightened discussions from genuine experts...and not just our IP's/SMEs. We have guys here who may not have a fancy color in their title but they are an invaluable resource. DBrowne, Beat_Trash, NCPatrolAR, Templar, and a bunch of other guys I could name have all made contributions that have made me rethink the way I do things or approach things.
The complaint we've heard repeatedly is that the quality of the discussion has gone downhill in the last little bit as the forum has grown...and GD is oft cited as an example of all that is wrong with the site. Eliminating GD would solve that source of complaint...and we'd be pretty strict on those who attempted to GD-ize a technical discussion...and we won't be gentle about it when we take action, either.
The discussion would probably be unnecessary if we could count on everyone to listen more than they talk and treat everyone from a default level of respect.
arbninftry
05-25-10, 18:20
There is some good from the GD forums. One of them is it does help people get info from Industry Proffessionals or some LEOs. Hopletheos has posted some great stuff that might not be available, unless it went into the LEO forum. I am not a LEO, but I do work for the Govt, and I live on the border. Usefull tools are everywhere. Also, I am a career Intel Geek, so it is good to get other info sometimes.
But yes, I do agree, some of the crap needs filtered.
I voted No.
I believe that the general discussion forum is a good complement to the technical forums. Because, it is an outlet for members to interact with others regarding a variety of topics. And, in my opinion it makes the site much more enjoyable.
As a newer member, this is only my opinion if you care to know it. And as some others have mentioned, if one doesn't care for the General Discussion area of the forum. Then do not read/ visit that part of the site.
I will acknowledge that it likely takes a great deal of time and effort for the Staff and Moderators to keep things in line and civil. A solution?
The post count mentioned is a possible answer. Or more serious repercussions for failing to adhere to the rules provided, to possibly a probationary period for new members of the site.
Either way, I hope that the GD remains. There are many people here on this forum with both varied and interesting opinions and thoughts, and I personally enjoy reading them.
The M4c site is the first gun related site I joined on the internet and I feel it is one of the best. The variety of experience, thoughts, and views is the reason I believe it is the preeminent site for everything gun related.
Thanks for your consideration,
SkiDevil
parishioner
05-25-10, 18:33
I agree with you.
There are also users that you rarely, if ever see outside of the GD forum. Why join a gun forum if you don't want to talk about firearms? I'm not trying to knock anybody. Just a thought.
I voted no because I am one of those people who rarely posts outside of GD. I would love to be able to post in the technical discussion and other such forums but sadly, I'm not able to get to the range as much as most here due to my schedule, therefore I don't experience minor problems with my weapon or know how the latest QD socket works or doesn't work on my forend. Despite my lack of knowledge in those areas I still enjoy reading things like that because I enjoy firearms. I also enjoy reading and discussing things going on in our country in the GD forum, especially here, because I guess you could say "these are my kind of people". People with common interests are attracted to each other and are usually on the same wave length as others in the community. I have gained an incredible amount of knowledge regarding our political climate from reading the GD and it has propelled me to do my own research and learn even more. I also appreciate reading the opinions of my elders since they are far wiser than I. If it was shut down, I guess I just wouldn't come here as much.
KI disagree with Robs minimum post count to be able to post in gd because then you will start to see "+1" in just about every post across the board.
This is VERY easily dealt with. For one thing you can up the minimum number of characters per post. Additionally if you click on a person's name you can click "find all recent posts" which brings up a list. If "+1" type posts make up the majority of what you see, nuke 'em.
I will say that if someone really was so intent at posting 200 +1s just to post in GD on an internet forum I frankly think they should go home, put their head in the oven, and blow out the pilot light. Preferably before they have a chance to reproduce.
thopkins22
05-25-10, 18:36
I voted no because I am one of those people who rarely posts outside of GD.
I was curious about my own record...about 50/50.
It would be less than ideal(Rob's idea still wins in my book,) but nor would it be the end of the world, particularly if there was some other area opened up that would accommodate things like the RTT CQB Man thread from long ago. But that would inevitably be general discussion with a different name.
I voted no. M4C is the only forum that I'm active in on a regular basis and I do enjoy "conversing" and debating certain topics, that are out of the technical scope of M4C, with like minded individuals. I honestly believe that the average intelligence level on M4C is higher than most other forums and I've learned a lot since joining here.
One of my primary reason for posting most of the self defense threads is to reinforce the idea that this shit happens everyday, everywhere and to everyday people and we need to be prepared for it. I believe it may also help people reevaluate their tactics and their mindset and there have been some very good discussions following the OP in some of these self defense threads. If these types of threads are no longer wanted due to clutter and BS I'll simply stop posting them.
My original intention when I joined M4C was for technical, no BS information on weapons. Admittedly, and I have participated, there have been a lot of BS threads started and stupid internet fueds as of late and I would encourage people to reread what they've typed before hitting the Submit Reply button.
Jay Cunningham
05-25-10, 18:38
The forum software has been configured for years now with a minimum character requirement. Go ahead and try and type "+1" and see what happens.
For whatever it's worth, I voted yes.
Interesting to see how many of the yes votes are mods. Not a surprise given how much noise GD contains.
So the thing I have a problem understanding is that if a better job is done policing the BS on the technical forums, how does the GD which is totally separate(or at least should be,) interfere with your M4C experience whatsoever?
As far as I see it, without a GD forum, some of the more worthless posters may go find another home.
I understand the argument that without GD, there might be spillover into the technical forums, but I am confident that the mods here could keep a lid on that (and frankly, it would be a lot easier than the current model).
When I come here and click on new posts, I have to wade through dozens of threads about the details of peoples lives that aren't even interesting enough to get an audience from their friends and coworkers.
There are some people with far higher post counts than myself, but 99% of it is, "I hate _____ politician," and "My girlfriend ______," and "Guess what I did today!" Would some of these Attention Whores start imposing on other subforums? Maybe, but I think that could be handled a lot more easily than trying to draw a nebulous line in the sand on what is OK as a general topic and what isn't. A technical forum doesn't need these members, and if they finally leave to sites dedicated to politics, religion, girlfriends, or whateverthecrap, it frees up resources. It improves the signal/noise ratio, lets the mods do their job more efficiently, gives readers a less abrasive experience, and restores meaning to the mission statement of the site.
I've moderated on a number of different forums over the years, on and off. I've seen it work where there was no 'free for all' forum. Yes, there were times when the Attention Whores would hit the technical forums with their drivel anyway, but it was easier to lock down. I've never moderated on a forum this large, but I think that scale in this case actually favors the option of removing GD more than keeping it.
Rather than leaving the shit-magnet, as Katar so eloquently put it, to grow larger and larger, you destroy the magnet and pick up the occasional piece that makes it into the nice, clean lawns.
I respect the staff's decision either way, and I honestly do see both sides of this argument. I don't think any answer or solution is an "easy" one but given the poll, I vote yes.
arizonaranchman
05-25-10, 18:40
I'd say RobS has a good idea... a minimum post count to eliminate the dorks.
If you eliminate GD you'll end up having to weed out the BS posts in all the other categories even more so than you already do, cuz I bet those who still want to chatter will just put those posts in the other categories. At least most of the BS goes to the GD forum as it is now.
PrivateCitizen
05-25-10, 18:44
My initial reaction was just link the GD category area direct to TOS GD and call it a day … :)
Still … I was really torn, but ended up voting No.
At the end, GD, even on this site, has a legitimate place. It unfortunately just becomes the home of all the crap too.
Looking at the first page or 2 presently there are half-dozen or better topics I follow.
Many are threads from .mil types or those in the field. I think it is good that they have a place to socialize while out in the dust. I know I'd need it.
A few others provide the kind of camaraderie that helps foster the learning in other threads.
The post count idea is a winner (or even only for site sponsors -haha- … anyone over 250 posts here probably should be anyway). Dunno if VB can get that specific.
So, I say keep it, but a solution to the static is certainly something I think many can get behind!
tracker722
05-25-10, 18:52
I was torn as well but went ahead and voted no. I like the idea of a post count, but why not make it a post count in the technical threads?
And, if you are the one who started a BS thread that gets locked or are the cause of one getting locked, your ability to start a new thread are suspended for x count or time.
SpookyPistolero
05-25-10, 18:56
I think it's a dangerous environment given the mission of this particular forum. It can easily spiral out of control.
To my mind, the GD should simply be amended to include only discussions of gun/shooting related topics/news/politics, nothing more.
If you want a more general/BS kind of forum, make a private subforum by invite only, for people that you know aren't douche bags. You wouldn't even have to mod that type of forum.
This happened on another site i frequent. People were getting too rowdy with religious and political debate so the GD was pulled for cleanup and mods were unsure whether to re-instate it. some of the BS threads that belonged in GD ended up in the tech side and it was annoying. nonetheless mods put GD back online but there are no religious argument or politics other than 2a allowed. much more low key now. I voted no and i agree with a post or time registered to the site limit.
ETA: i joined M4C in order to gather as much info as possible on the AR system and this was the best place to do that. GD has its place on most forums but should not get in the way of the original goals of the site.
thopkins22
05-25-10, 19:01
time registered to the site limit.
A better solution. There are members who have been here since 2006 and have relatively few posts. Members despite rarely posting, generally post quality comments and deserve full rights.
ETA: Don't know if the site can support it, but perhaps it should be like the car warranties. "50,000 miles or 5 years which ever comes first."
I didn't vote. This is something that's moderators/admin should decide according to their philosophy since they established this site and maintain it.
Arguments can be made both ways. Call it technical or whatever, we have to admit that websites like this are social media open to everybody. There is at least one thing that unifies people that come here, and dicsussing general crap with bunch of other people is nothing but exposure to variety of views. I rarely get anything out of GD board, but it doesn't offend me either. Additionally, the technical dicsussion boards cover pretty much the same stuff all over again - same questions of slightly different flavor, sometimes same flavor - it is easy to get stagnant that way.
On the other hand, getting rid of GD will make it more "professional" - whatever that means in this situation.
100% against this.
I read the GD every morning as my news paper.
crowkiller
05-25-10, 19:17
I use the GD to keep up with things, I vote no. I like the idea of a post count though.
Katar, I am an idiot when it comes to anything computers but is there any way to modify the software to up the minimum character requirement? Thereby filtering out more posts and if something was used like rob_s' recommendation that would help.
I am new here as well but one of the reasons why I like the GD is because (and this is going to sound gay) is because that section of the forum kinda puts a 'face' on everybody here. You get to know them outside the gun world. Whats going on in their world and how they view it. Make sense?
I have been very guilty as well for posting stupid stuff. Heck I had a thread moved last night and I completely understood why. Messing up on this forum is part of the learning curve. It just seems lately that there has been a very large increase in people on that curve.
The forum software has been configured for years now with a minimum character requirement. Go ahead and try and type "+1" and see what happens.
Nathan_Bell
05-25-10, 19:33
I agree with you.
There are also users that you rarely, if ever see outside of the GD forum. Why join a gun forum if you don't want to talk about firearms? I'm not trying to knock anybody. Just a thought.
I vote yes. Can we keep the "Dumbest Things Overheard at the Gun Shop" thread, though? I get a kick out of it.
A lot of folks READ all of the other subforums, but realize they have nothing to really add to the discussion. They get to read all of the great information available on M4C regarding guns and then BS in GD with folks who share their hobby/passion/business interest in defensive firearms.
Politics and current events WILL get into any forum, the GD allows an outlet for these without trashing good firearm related threads.
GermanSynergy
05-25-10, 19:38
I voted "no". I enjoy reading up on what people think about current events, etc. With that said, I agree with some that a post count requirement and stricter moderation would weed out 99.99% of the problems. Just my 2 cents.
I voted no, simply because I've enjoyed a lot of the relevant political, news, and world events type threads, and some of the non-firearms technical(ish) threads (vehicles, computers, new technology, space program, whatever).
I think that without somewhere to catch miscellaneous stuff, it can migrate into the tech forums somewhat, but that doesn't mean that true crap posts have to be acceptable anywhere on the forum.
I'd propose that the "general discussion" forum could become a "News, Politics, Current Events" type forum that's tightly guarded to keep out the twitterbookspace type "I just took the biggest dump ever" or "what I'm having for dinner tonight" nonsense.
Another option could be a "Technology" forum. Whether stuff like articles about DARPA programs, robotics, or new military hardware, those types of topics are a pretty common interest amongst gun folks. I'm thinking "popular mechanics" type info... That's the kind of stuff that can creep its way into other areas, because a lot of it can seem sort of tangentially relevant to a bored forum poster. Maybe it's a a bit of a stretch to include, but it's probably the one non-news aspect of GD that I think many folks find interesting and I don't spend much time elsewhere to see that kind of info, so if others share something cool, it's appreciated.
As far as dealing with these kind of forums, I think Rob's idea of a minimum post count before being able to post in them is worthwhile. I think that could be combined with a time limit -- if you hang out here for 6 months to a year without hitting 200 (to use his number) but also without managing to step on your crank publicly, the perhaps you can handle participation in the more general sub forums.
Keeping close tabs on the content takes time and manpower, but it's probably pretty effective, and would definitely be easier if a tighter scope of discussion was maintained. Requiring thread titles to be descriptive and holding posters to that standard could be a big help as well. It's easier to hide a crap post under a "Guess what I saw today" title than it is if you clearly title it "Saw someone in Big Bird costume walk down my street".
I think GD can remain in some form without causing issues if members all take ownership in quality of posts, make clear titles, and the scope of the discussions is limited to more relevant, intelligent topics. Limiting posting rights to more established members would help as well, and if implemented fairly.
I've been here at M4C since day 1 (or dang close to it) and am proud to admit to visiting and participating here. This is a quality place, with lots of quality people, and I want to see it stay that way as it continues to grow.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-25-10, 19:38
GD has its place. I don't mind the idea of a 200 post minimum, but I'd almost rather have a minimum 'page reads' than posts. You can't post in GD till you have read x number of page reads, or have visited this or that FAQ page, or passed a quiz. I think a GD adds to sense of 'community' that you wouldn't want gunking-up other areas.
How about posting who has the most posts on threads that eventually get closed? It would be interesting to see who the top 10 are.
I voted no...we are living in interesting times and it is very cool to discuss events with this crowd. I would miss the opinions & some of the best posts are by the mods.
Hope you reconsider.
Paul
Paul stated my opinion very well.
Rob's idea sounds like a good one as well.
QuietShootr
05-25-10, 19:58
I think this is the proper first step. F2S mentioned it in another thread. the strength and value of this forum are the members. if we can self-regulate and mentor, M4C has the best chance of improving.
yesterday, I wanted to report a thread that I thought was just a waste of bandwidth. So i clicked on the "report" icon. this is what was under the message box
"Note: This is ONLY to be used to report spam, advertising messages, and problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) posts. "
none of these applied, so I started a thread asking how we could handle these types of threads. if we ALL understand that we could report threads for being useless, AND GET OURSELVES REPORTED ON, maybe we would stop posting dumb things.
Personally, I like LF's architecture for off-topic things (Crusader Hall, and Team Room). it keeps the GD on even keel, most of the time
The only thing is, I wouldn't want this place to be as "**** YOU NOOB!!" as LF is. As I said in the "Why M4Carbine" thread, I think it mostly strikes a nice balance between AR15.com and LF, and I'd like to keep it that way.
theJanitor
05-25-10, 20:00
i don't really care what happens INSIDE the General Discussion area. I just want the tech forums to stay technical. I think new posters need to see it for themselves, that dumb topics get closed, or moved to GD. Then hopefully, they will either stop posting worthless things, or at least confine it to one specific area
i understand the sentiment... and GD has started looking a bit more like glocktalk than i'd like to see lately, but it's also good to have a place for off topic crap. if you don't have a spot for it, it tends to permeate the more topic oriented forums, which makes more work for our beloved M4c mods... :)
Pathfinder Ops
05-25-10, 20:04
Having moderated a different non-gun related forum for over 7 years, I can assure you that the deletion of the GD forum will not solve the problem, it'll simply migrate it to the rest of the forum. People who post crap* don't care that there isn't a specific forum to do so.
*Crap being things not related to the forum header.
THIS is a very good point. There is absolutely the chance removing the GD will cause the BS to show up in the wrong places. thereby causing the moderators of those other areas more maintainence.
theJanitor
05-25-10, 20:04
The only thing is, I wouldn't want this place to be as "**** YOU NOOB!!" as LF is. As I said in the "Why M4Carbine" thread, I think it mostly strikes a nice balance between AR15.com and LF, and I'd like to keep it that way.
in another thread i asked for a post to be written by the admin/staff/ip/sme's regarding appropriate content of the tech forums. that way, when you really want to say "**** YOU NOOB", you can just cut/past or link to that post
QuietShootr
05-25-10, 20:06
On a lighter note, I think it's great that this kind of introspection is even taking place amongst the staff and members. Really does show the quality in this ship once you scale the barnacles and chip some paint.
Pathfinder Ops
05-25-10, 20:08
But, when I click "New posts", I wish the GD stuff didn't show up! :p
Here is a good idea
I too only click the new posts tab. Therefore if GD wasn't included in that option I could use that as my BS filter. IF I choose to slum it I can make the conscious decision to go there and surf.
I agree with Robs post, 200 posts sounds like a good #.
.
I do like reading current events, getting new ideas and ways of looking at things from people who might be closer to the situation, or more "in the know" than myself. I rarely poke my head up from work/school/kids to get current events and the GD forum is one of the few where I can get the news I care to hear about. It's nice that people post links to stories that I would have no time to sit down and gather myself, and quite a few times my opinion has changed on subjects due to others' points of view being intelligently debated.
That said I think most of what's posted in GD is crap and I can see why most of the mods want to get rid of it. It was better pre-Obama IMO. I still voted No.
QuietShootr
05-25-10, 20:31
Here is a good idea
I too only click the new posts tab. Therefore if GD wasn't included in that option I could use that as my BS filter. IF I choose to slum it I can make the conscious decision to go there and surf.
EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT idea. Take GD out of the New Posts function.
A lot of folks READ all of the other subforums, but realize they have nothing to really add to the discussion. They get to read all of the great information available on M4C regarding guns and then BS in GD with folks who share their hobby/passion/business interest in defensive firearms.
Politics and current events WILL get into any forum, the GD allows an outlet for these without trashing good firearm related threads.
I time limit is an option as well. 200 posts or 6 months, or something like that. The only problem is that the idiots that register thinking they'll be posting in GD will simply wander off and then one day rediscover their registration email and come bouncing back in with a boatload of stupid.
Also, no solution is foolproof. I do think that posts or time is the best answer as we don't want to do anything that completely and totally eliminates people.
I've seen some forums that have a "new posts in tech" and a "new posts all forum" option wherein "new posts in tech" is essentially everything but GD. I'd support that as well.
While I did'nt read this whole thread, I did see some very good points brought up, I like Rob's idea about the 200 post count to get in the GD, and also agree that it's not foolproof, If anything, it's a delaying tactic..It'll stave off the idiots for awhile, but sooner or later they'll get in, with the proverbial "boatload of stupid". So, maybe it's time to shut the GD down, one less headache for the Mods, the forum can focus on it's orginial mission, With this in mind, I'm voting to shut the GD down.
I voted no. I like the fact that there is a general forum for more lighthearted threads, comedy threads, political threads, and "miscellaneous" type of threads. If one doesn't like the thread topic, one could always choose not to enter, no harm done IMHO.
Working towards my 200th post...:D
GD is the first place I visit due to the interesting stuff posted there. I haven't opened many threads personally but my last was a GD so the 200 starting point would limit me somewhat. I would rather listen/read than post unless I can really contribute...
For whatever it's worth, I voted yes.
Interesting to see how many of the yes votes are mods. Not a surprise given how much noise GD contains.
As far as I see it, without a GD forum, some of the more worthless posters may go find another home.
I understand the argument that without GD, there might be spillover into the technical forums, but I am confident that the mods here could keep a lid on that (and frankly, it would be a lot easier than the current model).
When I come here and click on new posts, I have to wade through dozens of threads about the details of peoples lives that aren't even interesting enough to get an audience from their friends and coworkers.
There are some people with far higher post counts than myself, but 99% of it is, "I hate _____ politician," and "My girlfriend ______," and "Guess what I did today!" Would some of these Attention Whores start imposing on other subforums? Maybe, but I think that could be handled a lot more easily than trying to draw a nebulous line in the sand on what is OK as a general topic and what isn't. A technical forum doesn't need these members, and if they finally leave to sites dedicated to politics, religion, girlfriends, or whateverthecrap, it frees up resources. It improves the signal/noise ratio, lets the mods do their job more efficiently, gives readers a less abrasive experience, and restores meaning to the mission statement of the site.
I've moderated on a number of different forums over the years, on and off. I've seen it work where there was no 'free for all' forum. Yes, there were times when the Attention Whores would hit the technical forums with their drivel anyway, but it was easier to lock down. I've never moderated on a forum this large, but I think that scale in this case actually favors the option of removing GD more than keeping it.
Rather than leaving the shit-magnet, as Katar so eloquently put it, to grow larger and larger, you destroy the magnet and pick up the occasional piece that makes it into the nice, clean lawns.
I respect the staff's decision either way, and I honestly do see both sides of this argument. I don't think any answer or solution is an "easy" one but given the poll, I vote yes.
I was talking to the wife about the "Twitterfication" of the forum and she pointed out to me that it has nothing to do with the forum. It is our society. We believe that everyone is interested in what we have to say and doing. We do not.
I personally like the GD forum and have learned things from it. As someone that works in the Firearms Industry day in and day out, sometimes I need a break from it and enjoy reading political or humor threads. The GD forum does need more moderation and some other tweaks though and understand that it is the hardest section in the forum to moderate.
C4
Having moderated a different non-gun related forum for over 7 years, I can assure you that the deletion of the GD forum will not solve the problem, it'll simply migrate it to the rest of the forum. People who post crap* don't care that there isn't a specific forum to do so.
*Crap being things not related to the forum header.
Same here, I have been a moderator on a couple of forums over the years. One which was pure discussion/opinion (military history) and without a GD area I couldn't imagine trying to keep the place squared away.
The other was an industry forum related to engineering and manufacturing. Pretty much all technical info and industry discussion. Our "Lounge" at times got out of hand but it kept all the nonsense in one area and easy to keep an eye on. Threadjacking/off topic/flames and trolls in the techical areas were dealt with. First infraction=Warning, 2nd=1 day ban, 3rd=1 week ban, 4th= you were gone.
Either way, I voted no, I look at GD's as a necessary evil of large and successful forums. While a pain in the ass for the mods and admins, it is needed.
I voted no. I like reading the reactions of people with similar interests to current events. It kind of makes M4C a one stop shop.
Does the additional storage space required to have a GD area and the time it takes to moderate it significantly hinder the site's ability to function? If it does, then I say boot it. If not, I think the combo of post count (or something along those lines) and GD topics not showing up under new posts would make a lot of people happy.
Either way, it's not going to make the site any less valuable if there's no place for GD.
Thanks for asking for our input Mods.
chiefhubbard
05-25-10, 22:30
I have already voted no, but I see many reasons for and against given and seems it boils down to that there is good info on GD and BS also. That given, seems like a good place for a new person to learn how to navigate and post properly while pointing out those that have very little to offer but negatives, and learn by their mistakes and not make them themselves.
The_War_Wagon
05-25-10, 22:34
A little levity and a place to unwind never hurt anyone. And if they come back with TOO much stupid, you can ALWAYS ban them. :p
jaybird210
05-25-10, 22:39
I voted no because this is the only section of this site I can read and post in and not feel like a complete rah-tard.
I have no military or LEO experience. I'm fairly new to the platform although I've admired it from afar for a long time. This site is pretty much my only education on this platform right now. I like the GD as others have said as it gives some insight as to the other, much more knowledgeable members of this site. Gives 'em a human side. Plus I've picked up a ton of info on lots of different, but related issues.
My only beef with the 200+ post count idea is: take me for example. I don't post much because I'm kinda dumb. I'm here to learn. I do far more lurking than posting. But if there is something I need or want to post on, I can do so. I would hate to see that go away.
How about something like you see on TheHighRoad.com or TheFiringLine.com? These sites have a general discussion forum and yet the threads must meet certain requirements (be gun related, or homeland security related, etc.). How about setting certain parameters and then require that threads meet those parameters? Maybe that would involve too much moderator intervention. I don't know how many moderators there are to patrol this section and that might be too much to ask. Just throwin it out there. I would hate to see the GD forum go away.
I voted no.
I need a place to vent about 3rd world shitholes, socialists, and losers I meet in everyday life.
There is one very useful function of GD for a board like M4C which I'm surprised no one has brought up.
While it may be self-evident to those that have been around this forum and the AR platform for a long time, figuring out who knows shit and who knows shinola can be difficult. Peoples' purported credentials mean little to nothing on an Internet forum (even this one) and the GD helps to separate the chaffe so to speak. Yes the SME and INDUSTRY PROFESSIONAL designators are there but there are others on the board just as knowledgeable who don't fall into those categories. Observing the conversations of others in GD often is an indicator who to listen to and who not to listen to.
I voted no - I personally like the GD forum. Good place to present national or good info that other like minded folks here can enjoy or pass on. i dont mind the minimum post count idea. Not a bad idea.
Look - this is a great site, we all agree on that. I know the mission statement, but having that "other" side to express opinions, other topics, games and just funny/sad stories really show another side that in some respects complements all that is technical.
Just the idea it is asked here is pretty awesome.
We would happily make that an infraction and mercilessly crush their account for doing so.
RE: +1-type posts and the like. Between something like that and Rob's >200 post idea, I think that keeping the signal-to-noise ratio where it's preferred to be is potentially workable.
Violators get the post limit ramped up by 50-100 for each offense, with a three-strike limit before the descent of the ban hammer...something along those lines.
I'd like to see the GD subforum stay.
I would keep it. My active military and LEO service is behind me, and my hardware "needs" are squared away well enough. But I do enjoy reading what the thoughts of competent people and why they hold those opinions. I still occasionally have something to offer and I can in turn still learn good things now and then. There once was a time (not so long ago) when this sort of thing was pretty hard to come by.
As far out in flyover country as I am, it still is.
YES please. Way too much BS to moderate.
Requiring a number of posts just to be allowed to post in GD is counter productive and makes no sense at all to me. That means people will have to post in the tech forums to raise their post count, all that will lead to is spam and unnecessary posts.
I do not see the GD board being the problem, the tech boards are the ones lacking content. Unless a new product is released the posts are the same thing over and over, usually consisting of "I have X amount of money, what should I buy?".
Make the GD a forum that require a certain number of posts to see (if possible). Required 200 posts for any GD means they will have to post 200 times in a technical section. Infraction based forums work well, seeing people get points makes them stop for a moment.
I hate to suggest more sub-forums under GD, but some topics could be places there, or archive old threads. Thread necro seems to pop up more and more.
As far as the purpose of GD, you need members to be active, plain and simple. As dumb as it sounds, it is a way to get to know and relate to other posters here and see that hopefully all of us are somewhere on the same path.
EDIT: GD forum location, if it is at the top it will be the first forum visited. If the focus is the AR platform, shouldn't AR talk be first? Then other firearms, training, regional training, then GD?
I agree that if kept, the GD forum should be moved to a less prominent position at the bottom of the forums index page.
variablebinary
05-26-10, 01:02
I was talking to the wife about the "Twitterfication" of the forum and she pointed out to me that it has nothing to do with the forum. It is our society. We believe that everyone is interested in what we have to say and doing. We do not.
I agree.
I almost never read threads from someone posting about their personal life, their dinner pics or whatever.
However, GD, for me acts as a hub for general news and military information. I'm sure that is the case for most. Sometimes news breaks here before it hits Drudge report.
The mods just need to mandate that M4C not be used for twitter like posting behavior. Like you said, "we" dont care
Requiring a number of posts just to be allowed to post in GD is counter productive and makes no sense at all to me. That means people will have to post in the tech forums to raise their post count, all that will lead to is spam and unnecessary posts.
Good point.
PdxMotoxer
05-26-10, 01:25
Does anyone else notice the IRONY of those is this thread posting "i NEVER go into GD or even use the GD section"?
EDIT: GD forum location, if it is at the top it will be the first forum visited. If the focus is the AR platform, shouldn't AR talk be first? Then other firearms, training, regional training, then GD?
This is a good suggestion. My take so far...
Move GD to the bottom of the list
Create "all new topics" and "all new topics but GD" buttons
Require new members to have 200 posts or be registered for 6 months before posting in GD.
and again, this ridiculous idea that someone would go around posting nonsense in the tech forums just to get to 200 posts is equally nonsensical. In fact, that's the whole point of making it 200 instead of 10 or 20. It will be painfully obvious to anyone who clicks "view all posts" under a person's name if someone is "spamming" and that person should then be banned. In fact they should hang themselves for being so pathetic, if you want my opinion.
I have a limited amount of knowledge to share on firearms. I know how to strip and clean and troubleshoot, but I can't tell you the difference between the forges Bushmaster uses and those of Armalite, unlike a lot of the frequent members in the tech discussions. So I'm mostly a lurker and keep my mouth shut on those threads :). And GD is always nice to shoot the shit.
Does anyone else notice the IRONY of those is this thread posting "i NEVER go into GD or even use the GD section"?
Not at all. The thread shows up in "new posts" when you click that, and in your User CP if you've replied to it.
altramagnus
05-26-10, 06:03
I time limit is an option as well. 200 posts or 6 months, or something like that. The only problem is that the idiots that register thinking they'll be posting in GD will simply wander off and then one day rediscover their registration email and come bouncing back in with a boatload of stupid.
Also, no solution is foolproof. I do think that posts or time is the best answer as we don't want to do anything that completely and totally eliminates people.
I've seen some forums that have a "new posts in tech" and a "new posts all forum" option wherein "new posts in tech" is essentially everything but GD. I'd support that as well.
I as someone who hasn't posted much at all but been here for years would have to agree with Rob. Instead of something like 6 months what about 1-2 years.
Also since we do have quite a few good-like minded folks here what about upping the Mods in that area.
Just my humble 2 cents.
Shawn
Army Chief
05-26-10, 06:30
From a site administration perspective, questions about General Discussion or Off-Topic forums often answer themselves once you take a look at membership demographics. I'm not suggesting that M4CN follows the pattern exactly, but over time, GD/OT boards invariably attract new members who who post almost exclusively in the off-topic area(s) of the site.
That is a nice way of saying that these kinds of members contribute little or nothing to the boards at large, but they aren't even the problem. The real dilemma is that these folks tend to set the stage for others whose input routinely detracts from the site. The people in this latter group invariably find their way onto "watch" or "ban" lists behind the scenes, but the point is that most site staffs really don't have the time to be dealing with this -- and worse, even if they do, the quality of the board suffers.
There are examples of this in action all across the web. Good boards don't go bad overnight; they simply fail to recognize the warning signs when they begin to experience these demographic shifts. Off-topic posting areas work well when the membership is small, or highly vetted, or both ... but they inevitably become a problem when sites begin to experience the kind of growth that we're seeing on M4CN.
If you're reading this, and are one of those guys who posts in the GD area 80% of the time, please understand that my remarks aren't intended as an affront; that said, it might be time to up your game and get involved in more substantive discussions. The last thing you want to do is to serve as an encouragement for those who would seek to ride in on your coattails and turn this place into another TOS.
A closing thought: site staffers can always intervene when things really begin to get out of hand, but a self-policing membership is always the more effective alternative. Are those of us in general membership feeding the right kind of growth with our posting habits, or might we unwittingly be contributing to a potential problem? I'm not lambasting the GD board, but our approach to it may serve to provide some useful insights.
AC
Nathan_Bell
05-26-10, 06:32
This is a good suggestion. My take so far...
Move GD to the bottom of the list
Create "all new topics" and "all new topics but GD" buttons
Require new members to have 200 posts or be registered for 6 months before posting in GD.
and again, this ridiculous idea that someone would go around posting nonsense in the tech forums just to get to 200 posts is equally nonsensical. In fact, that's the whole point of making it 200 instead of 10 or 20. It will be painfully obvious to anyone who clicks "view all posts" under a person's name if someone is "spamming" and that person should then be banned. In fact they should hang themselves for being so pathetic, if you want my opinion.
Also make GD posts not count towards the EE minimum.
QuietShootr
05-26-10, 06:47
I voted no because this is the only section of this site I can read and post in and not feel like a complete rah-tard.
I have no military or LEO experience. I'm fairly new to the platform although I've admired it from afar for a long time. This site is pretty much my only education on this platform right now. I like the GD as others have said as it gives some insight as to the other, much more knowledgeable members of this site. Gives 'em a human side. Plus I've picked up a ton of info on lots of different, but related issues.
My only beef with the 200+ post count idea is: take me for example. I don't post much because I'm kinda dumb. I'm here to learn. I do far more lurking than posting. But if there is something I need or want to post on, I can do so. I would hate to see that go away.
How about something like you see on TheHighRoad.com or TheFiringLine.com? These sites have a general discussion forum and yet the threads must meet certain requirements (be gun related, or homeland security related, etc.). How about setting certain parameters and then require that threads meet those parameters? Maybe that would involve too much moderator intervention. I don't know how many moderators there are to patrol this section and that might be too much to ask. Just throwin it out there. I would hate to see the GD forum go away.
If this place turns into THR or TFL, I will have lost what little hope I have for the internet.
shooter521
05-26-10, 07:26
Move GD to the bottom of the list
Create "all new topics" and "all new topics but GD" buttons
Require new members to have 200 posts or be registered for 6 months before posting in GD.
Sounds good to me!
The GD forum serves a useful function as a pressure relief valve. Even on dedicated tech boards such as this, folks need a place to go and vent or post non-tech stuff occasionally. The restrictions proposed above would help keep GD a bit more orderly, and would allow members to easily pass it over if they're just here for the tech stuff.
30 cal slut
05-26-10, 07:55
The forum software has been configured for years now with a minimum character requirement. Go ahead and try and type "+1" and see what happens.
+ one
:D
John_Wayne777
05-26-10, 08:15
If you're reading this, and are one of those guys who posts in the GD area 80% of the time, please understand that my remarks aren't intended as an affront; that said, it might be time to up your game and get involved in more substantive discussions.
...and this brings up an excellent opportunity to address something else that I believe is critical:
Folks, you don't have to post. If there's a discussion happening it's perfectly acceptable to simply read the discussion that's going on and learn from the discussion. Now if you have a question about something that's been mentioned or if there is a bit of knowledge you can contribute that is germane to the thread, by all means do so...but otherwise it's best to hold your peace. Folks who frequent the AR forums will notice that my screen name does not appear much in those forums. There is a reason for that. When I show up in those forums I'm generally looking to learn something since you can fit what I know about carbines into a thimble compared to guys like GotM4.
This gets down to why you are posting in a thread. On M4C we would generally prefer that the motivation for posting be productive...in other words, you're trying to solve a problem (that hasn't already been solved 100 times in the past) or you have a question (preferably one that hasn't been asked 100 times in the past) or you're furthering the discussion by adding some useful knowledge or input into the discussion.
People shouldn't be posting because they are bored. If I had to identify one specific thing that is probably the unspoken reason for people's perception that M4C is going downhill, I would select posts that serve no useful purpose on the board. Now this is not to say that every single post must be 100% business with every word or sentence...but generally it's better if there's a relevant point that other people are interested in, especially knowledgeable people who are generally busy and want the minimum amount of foolishness in something they desire to be a professional quality resource. We can have a board that is generally a professional quality resource without being insufferable about it...but only if people respect the culture of the board.
On M4C there are no cool guy points for having a high post count. In fact, some of our best contributors have a really low post count because....they only post when they have something valuable to contribute to the discussion. To paraphrase Ken Hackathorn, that would be a "clue" about how things are supposed to work around here.
- Listen more than you talk.
- Talk when you have something worthwhile to say.
- Say it in as respectful a manner as possible.
- Strive to stay within the boundaries of your knowledge.
- Understand that others may have valid reasons to disagree with something you say and don't let that offend you.
- Humility is a marvelous personality trait and is encouraged here.
When I came to M4C after GotM4 invited me to check it out, I noticed right away the culture was a lot different here than it was on many other boards I'd visited, which was part of the attraction of the site. I was a newbie so I read a lot, asked some questions that weren't painfully retarded, and generally tried to conduct myself in a manner that respected the culture and tenor of the board.
When I hear people lament that M4C needs to get back to its "roots" or that it's gone downhill, I think that's the core of their dissatisfaction....people are showing up on the board and treating it just like they would any other board out there rather than valuing the board because it is different. To simply show up and behave any old way is as rude and unwelcome as some drunken frat boys who crash a pleasant cocktail party and turn it into bedlam. That kind of stuff is only cool in an Animal House movie. In real life, it's rude, inconsiderate, and is likely to result in your ass being kicked.
The discussion about GD's future is a part of a larger concern about the overall tenor of the board...so it seems like perhaps this is the best place to mention the culture issue which I personally believe is at the root of this discussion. M4C became the board it is because of that culture which valued real knowledge, carefully considered participation, and generally behaving like an adult.
To keep the board where it needs to be we are going to have to politely insist that people respect and abide by the mandates of that culture. It's not done out of a desire to be elitist, or to keep people from participating on the board or any other nefarious charge that can be leveled against us....it's done to protect what makes the board valuable in the first place. Occasionally this means that someone who violates the cultural norms may be corrected by the members who understand and value the culture or by the moderators. Sometimes the correction may be somewhat curt.
Deal with it.
I want to be abundantly clear here: I'm not talking about being unnecessarily hostile to anyone or saying that bad behavior is acceptable from people with a post count above X posts. I've said repeatedly that I have no desire to participate on a board that consists of a small group of people with severe personality problems who delight in needlessly berating others as a means of making themselves feel more special. If I see it heading in that direction I will find greener pastures.
I'm talking about people who cannot grasp that they may not be the smartest kid in the room or that perhaps nobody in the room is really interested in their opinion if it is uninformed or (even worse) improperly informed. Sometimes in a room full of type A personalities a well-deserved rebuke may not be phrased in the most artful or sensitive manner...but if we're grown damn men we should be more than capable of dealing with it without crying or throwing a tantrum.
GD is one issue...and as my vote shows, I think it's had a deleterious impact on our board's culture. It is, however, this threat to our culture that is the real issue and that can only be addressed by everybody taking a step back and considering some of the points I've made, IMO.
Flame suit on.
All general discussion areas are hell holes. There is a reason we are discussing deleting it from this forum.
If it stays, I suspect it will be a very different landscape as our staff gets more involved there.
I think this is the ticket: tighter moderation of the general discussion area. I don't ascribe to the idea of keeping a GD area as some sort of "release valve" and do agree that it would be easier to do away with it than to keep it. However, GD areas contribute to a sense of community. There's value in that.
The complaint we've heard repeatedly is that the quality of the discussion has gone downhill in the last little bit as the forum has grown...and GD is oft cited as an example of all that is wrong with the site. Eliminating GD would solve that source of complaint...
Agreed, and I attribute it to growing pains. I've seen it in many other forums. Clearly defined rules and firm, but not brutal, moderation can keep the ship on course.
The discussion would probably be unnecessary if we could count on everyone to listen more than they talk and treat everyone from a default level of respect.
Too many people have no sense of accountability for what they say or do on the Internet for self-policing to be effective on a forum of this size.
The only thing is, I wouldn't want this place to be as "**** YOU NOOB!!" as LF is. As I said in the "Why M4Carbine" thread, I think it mostly strikes a nice balance between AR15.com and LF, and I'd like to keep it that way.
I agree wholeheartedly with this. Using LF as an example, there is a lot of good info over there but, a lot of high-post-count elitists to have to navigate around, too.
Also make GD posts not count towards the EE minimum.
Good point.
I voted to dump GD; it's a distraction. And hopefully closing GD would help clean up the tech forums, too - I've noticed a distinct change in tech in my short time here from concept-based discussion to "what should I buy?" or "which is better - A or B?".
Can we also add "vs" to the filter along with "+1"? A thread title like "Wombat Arms vs. Bloodlust Tactical - wich is moar bettr?" will drive me away every time. Either/or isn't discussion, it's voting - and a softball to the fanboys.
I feel that the GD forums should be kept. However like others I agree that there should be a Minimum Post count before you can post there. Rob was pretty on at 200 however I could see it being even higher.
Littlelebowski
05-26-10, 09:01
Kill it and get back to M4C's roots. Go elsewhere for idle chatter.
I understand the reasons for wanting to but I'm going to vote no for the same reasons that I despise "no tolerance" policies - making the tool the villain at the cost of requiring personal responsibility
I can't stand it when a few mouthbreathers ruin it for the rest of us. so rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater, I'd just prefer that the offending individuals be dealt with. in a very matter of fact way, posters could be advised that their post is not the kind of material that is needed or wanted at M4c.
seems simple to me...
FlyAndFight
05-26-10, 09:17
I voted no...we are living in interesting times and it is very cool to discuss events with this crowd. I would miss the opinions & some of the best posts are by the mods.
Hope you reconsider.
Paul
I agree with Paul as well. Not only have I learned quite a bit of interesting information from the serious GD posts, but it's also allowed me to learn quite a bit about the posters themselves. There are opinions that I value more (or less) now that I've received either some background info on the posters or have seen their opinions on different issues.
As for the idea that removing the GD section will eliminate the BS, I happen to disagree. The BS has already been showing up all over the other sections. It's been on the rise as of late, with the apparent boom in new posters.
I simply skip the nonsense and appreciate the good stuff, just like in any other forum.
Even though I'm party responsible for this movement, I actually say "no".
What I would prefer is something like a 200 post count required to post there. I think that 200 is high enough that nobody is just going to spam the forum with "+1" just to post there, and if they were that would be rather obvious (and sadly pathetic) and they would be banned.
I enjoy discussing general topics with those that I "know" here from time to time on a limited basis, like the gearheads thread, but am less interested in some dickwad that wanders in, posts a question about which YHM rail looks cooler for his safe queen in the AR section and then waddles over to GD to engage the regulars with inane shit.
This would keep me out of there at present, but I still think it's a great idea. Perhaps it would work better if you don't advertise the fact that you need 200 posts to open GD up, i.e. it just magically becomes visible at post 201. That might keep people from spamming the other forums just to open up GD.
Also make GD posts not count towards the EE minimum.
Not only that, I have been on other forums where the GD got a little rowdy with idiocy. One tool used was for GD posts to not count toward individual post counts AT ALL. At times, a wing nut or two would post garbage or an emoticon just to get their count up. Of course, we foster that as we seem to place "value" to those who have thousands of posts, versus those who do not. There is some merit to this, but at the end of the day, there are guys with thousands of posts spewing garbage in the forums, and guys with a dozen posts dropping keen knowledge and wisdom. FWIW.
Off with its head! You could replace it with a "news" or current firearm related news ONLY discussion. There are plenty of other places to discuss off topic issues if so desired.
Littlelebowski
05-26-10, 09:37
Do you guys have any idea how much work it is to police posts in General Discussion? As a mod on two other forums, I can honestly say it's a pain in the ass and very tempting to ignore those posts and get onto what interests me personally which is weapons and tactics. We would have a better forum without GD.
Thomas M-4
05-26-10, 09:38
I voted no I do sometime enjoy reading some of the things in GD.
Rob_s suggestion of a minimum post count sounds like a good idea to me I might add that certain threads for example [ CALL OF DUTY] gaming threads should be deleted on sight with out mercy. I fill that it demeans M4c.
maybe a 200 count or 2 year probation with good standing, whichever is first? I usually don't wander over to the GD just because I don't have a lot of extra time, but I know there are others out there like me who read here quite a bit more than they post, and only post when they have something worthy of contributing. I'm not sure that I will be at a 200 post count at 2 yrs, but it would suck if I did want to say something in GD but couldn't due to lack of a post count, in spite of being a part of the community for a while.
the danger of a post count requirement is that you will get the boneheads who post crap in order to boost their count, just so they can be in the in crowd, and it may weed out those who despise the very idea of having to post to post. so you may ironically end up with the very population you are trying to avoid. just a thought.
maybe screen those about to reach 200, and if they have too many bs posts, then chop their post count? there are some on TOS that have been there half as long as I have, but have nearly 5X the post count, and they sound like children. just makes me shake my head.
Littlelebowski
05-26-10, 09:44
This would turn around this forum immediately in one stroke. When clicking on "new posts" there would be no more wading through trash to find actual posts on weapons and tactics. Mods would be rarely seen and would be spending their time in the background, perhaps gently nudging threads back on topic instead of breaking up fights.
I say remove it. With prejudice.
And while you're at it...remove the advertising from SWAT magazine. Advertising this forum to the general public as the place that professionals go is just guaranteed to pull in every manner of moron.
Rob's idea is a good one, also there should be a post 'maximum.' If your post per day average goes over 3 (or whatever number is deemed appropriate) , then you should be banned/muzzled. Obviously there are a lot of experts/industry insiders on this site who would be exempted from this requirement, because they actually have information that is worth sharing. But if you're just John Jackass with a name like RTA, 3 per day is your max.
Edit:
I googled "vbulletin post throttling" and found the following. It looks like it is possible, fyi.
http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=131014
Further edit:
Also, you should remove/change all titles of non-experts/insiders to just member, instead of 'Senior Member.' No titles should be based on post count. It is silly as hell, but believe it or not some people really place a lot of importance on something like that. And there is a near 100 percent convergence with this group and the type that ruin gun forums.
Thomas M-4
05-26-10, 09:54
This would turn around this forum immediately in one stroke. When clicking on "new posts" there would be no more wading through trash to find actual posts on weapons and tactics. Mods would be rarely seen and would be spending their time in the background, perhaps gently nudging threads back on topic instead of breaking up fights.
I believe that it would but I just hate to see the GD go away.
I will say that if it has become that bad for the moderators to control it then I would vote yes and drop it :(.
I'd just prefer that the offending individuals be dealt with. in a very matter of fact way, posters could be advised that their post is not the kind of material that is needed or wanted at M4c.
I think this is absolutely part of what needs to happen. In fact it happened to me very shortly after I joined and it let me know exactly what this site was all about. It was appreciated and productive for me to get a PM stating that my thread had been removed and the reason why. Very effective.
10-8 forums have very little idle chit chat and it thrives. I don't see why it can't be the same here without doing away with the GD section.
How would Grant have done that cool thing he did last Christmas if he didn't have the GD section to do it in? That section facilitated that & if for no other reason that allowing community comaraderie. . . . please lets keep it.
Besides, the GD section is where I usually come to get the facts when b.s. has been posted elsewhere. Some big news story, b.s. on the news, b.s. on other forums . . . here I ususally see a different perspective that ring closer to the truth even if it still has an element of b.s. I value that.
Pathfinder Ops
05-26-10, 10:18
Here is an observation that has come to me while reading everyone of the responses thus far.
The ARFCom site takes a lot of trash talking from many of us on this site.
Why?
Because of the foolishness that has evolved there with essentially a free for all of GD across the board and its creep into the topic specific thread areas.
Hell even the paid members only area has become a place for the "twitterfication" of everything from who has the best friggin water filter for my toilet to the wholesale, ass sucking of the few females that post there.
I say.... If the GD is kept (and the stats suggest it will be) Make the minimum post count a factor and take the GD out of what shows in the "New Posts" tab.
As for LF; I agree we should not take a Fck U Noob posture. Regarding THR and the others mentioned. Cesspools of middle-school BS.
Oh and as matter of curiosity I just went to the GD here and noticed on page 1 alone, all but 6 threads are exactly what guys are complaining about.
Robot dogs (the "latest version) as if the original wasn't sufficient.
Some crap about the NJ Governor getting tough.
A request to identify a "FAKE silencer."
Obamacare.
The oil spill in the gulf.
Chitchat about a TV show and a movie.
WTF!?
On the other hand that's what a GD suggests its content is. General and nonspecific. In other words; whatever somebody wants to put out there.
If this place turns into THR or TFL, I will have lost what little hope I have for the internet.
Or lightfighter or accuratereloading.com.
Nathan_Bell
05-26-10, 10:27
Not only that, I have been on other forums where the GD got a little rowdy with idiocy. One tool used was for GD posts to not count toward individual post counts AT ALL. At times, a wing nut or two would post garbage or an emoticon just to get their count up. Of course, we foster that as we seem to place "value" to those who have thousands of posts, versus those who do not. There is some merit to this, but at the end of the day, there are guys with thousands of posts spewing garbage in the forums, and guys with a dozen posts dropping keen knowledge and wisdom. FWIW.
I had forgotten that option. IIRC another forum I belonged to had posts in EE, GD, and ones in mod killed threads not count.
They had another great way of controlling mouth breathers. All participants in a thread that got mod-killed got a three day recess.
I voted 'No' - I think General Discussion forums are a valuable resource for a broad range of topics. I think any forum is subject to trolls and or overheated debates - regardless of subject matter. What keeps me coming back here is the valuable resources available regarding the M4, (et al) and the diversity of opinions on a broad range of subjects - from soup to bananas. I think the GD forum is a valuable asset to M4C...
I would vote to keep it, perhaps with some modification. However, it seems to me the ones to decide should be those who started this forum, those who moderate it, and those who have paid money to join it. It's really their forum. The rest of us are just guests.
kaiservontexas
05-26-10, 10:48
I voted to keep it, but I would not cry if it got shut down. I apologize for any crap I have added. I know I am not perfect. I almost think it should be shut down in retrospect. All I know is I like the technical information contained on the site. It has helped me here and there with things. Without such I would be one of those people who did not know any better and kept getting disappointed.
geezerbutler
05-26-10, 11:09
I would like to see something along the lines of Rob's idea; if not, put it tits up.
To many dweebs, pussies, geeks, 9 year old Airsofters and LE/MIL Wannabes are posting total Grabasstic CRAP in the GD Forum.
There are some good aspects to it though, and plenty of intellectual and well thought out posts.
There are also plenty of outstanding 2nd Amendment and future of our Country posts to boot.
Just my 2 freaking pesos.
Even though I'm party responsible for this movement, I actually say "no".
What I would prefer is something like a 200 post count required to post there. I think that 200 is high enough that nobody is just going to spam the forum with "+1" just to post there, and if they were that would be rather obvious (and sadly pathetic) and they would be banned.
I enjoy discussing general topics with those that I "know" here from time to time on a limited basis, like the gearheads thread, but am less interested in some dickwad that wanders in, posts a question about which YHM rail looks cooler for his safe queen in the AR section and then waddles over to GD to engage the regulars with inane shit.
One other option would be to limit the GD topics to gun-related only (not AR specific but must be firearm related), as, well. One of the 1911 forums I frequent does that and it keeps things more or less on track.
I voted no as well.
While yes, there is generally an off topic forum on every bulletin board site out there. This in my opinion is one of the few out there that actually have people that are mature and actually know what they are talking about.
I mainly joined this site because well I like AR15's and it had a lot of info about them. I like the OT section, because you actually get to know the people of the forum a little better. You get to know their political views as well as the recreational side of their lives.
The OT section is also a good source of information if you need clarifications on gun laws and what not as well.
anyway that is just my .02
ForTehNguyen
05-26-10, 12:24
no, just lay down the law more, people will get the message.
If it were up to me I'd nuke it from orbit and be done with it.
Then the Mods would have time to Moderate instead of babysit.
I can't imagine the amount of time and heartburn it takes just to keep the stupidity in GD down to a dull roar. Even if the stupid started to migrate into other rooms, the mods would have more time to police it because they wouldn't be spending all day shifting through GD crap.
They might even enjoy moderating again.
I vote no. I can not tell you how many times I asked or saw asked a general AR question over on AR15 and it was posted in the AR Discussion....... where a normal person would think that a general AR question would be.
I'm not sure how many of the airsofters/wannabe's are posting on here but Gen Discussion over here has always seemed like a hang out and shoot the shit with people of a like mine. Sure it might get filled with cat pictures and bad jokes but if you take away GD you will just have stuffy technical threads and you might as well write a manual instead of trying to have an active community.
Then you have to nuke the whole Preparation, Preparedness & Prevention section. There is only so much to be said about Gun Shot Wounds in 1st Aid and being in shape doesn't have anything to do with firearms. There is more to Prepping than your Colt AR or AK and Field craft and survival doesn't really need a gun.
There is much more to this site than just does XXX work on ARs.
I say get rid of it.
I rarely look at GD anymore, as the signal to noise ratio isn't that great.
It is good to have a place to post some interesting or important things for the community. But I think the ability to detract from the overall mission here is greater for GD.
Or shut it down for a couple months to see how things go. Or have a disclaimer that any GD thread can vanish at any time, for any reason, so Mod's can kill the stupid in a hurry.
Littlelebowski
05-26-10, 13:19
Look, this place is a wellspring of knowledge because of a bias towards arguments and information based upon experience and firsthand knowledge and GD does nothign but take away from the ongoing maintenance . Give the mods the break they need. Go to Arfcom or use PMs to chat.
The appeal of this GD forum is that it is not like others. The intellectual aspect of this firearm forum spawned a place where for the most part people can learn things relevant to their lives that they may not find elsewhere for whatever reason. Good or bad, it was an inevitable side effect considering there is was a GD option established by the staff.
Now it has become a frequent gathering place for many gun owners who are looking to communicate on a primarily serious level, but we also have had lot's of memorable humor based threads (and then some). Sure there is dopey crap to be found at times, maybe even often depending on the day. But the GD link can be made less prominent and there is no reason as to why a higher standard can't be established among us, starting with this thread. And GD "new posts" could probably be removed from the overall list if they are so troublesome to a few.
Also, I couldn't help but note that when checking the voting tally VA Dinger was the only staff member who voted to keep GD open. This seems noteworthy only because numerous folks who voted to close it are notable contributors here. I'm not sure why some of them have contributed so much to something they don't care for. Just an observation.
Beyond newcomers just looking to act foolish or who are blatantly naive, it all really breaks down to one's perception. You can look at a thread where someone shares an issue with, let's say, their home or marriage as one that is some weak idiot whining in public or as someone who is both looking for important advice as well as creating a pool of knowledge among his peers. Knowledge that they may actually utilize one day.
Either way, if you don't like it there are other sections. I don't get the hate for something one need not be a part of. This except for those staff/mods with the responsibility to oversee, of course.
theJanitor
05-26-10, 15:12
UVvis might have it right. shut it down for a little while. see how it goes. Once again, I would like to emphasize that it's not the GD that I'm dissatisfied with, it's the GD-like topics that are in the TECH side of the forums.
I'm leaning toward nix'ing it. or if it's kept, split it up into subforums with specific content (politics, gun-related news, mil/leo related news, etc)
This is a fighting/tech/mindset/skills related forum. that's where it's appeal is. that's where it's value is.
I can't speak for everyone, but I imagine that the SME's, IP's, and Staff are busy people. But they take the time to offer their hard-earned knowledge to the rest of us. It's our duty to clear the lanes so they can get their info across.
I voted no.
I see M4C as not only a tremendous resource, but as a Community. The Mods/Staff here are great. They all have different personallities, likes and dis-likes. The IP's and SME's are phenomenal and I am honored and humbled to have access to them and their knowledge. The general membership here is on the same level.
On the community side of things, I really enjoy it here. This would include most of the GD topics. I rise at 0400 hrs and read M4C with my coffee, like the morning paper. I check in periodically all day as time permits. I admit, I am a junky. Besides the firearms/tactics stuff, I enjoy some of the other things that pop up in GD. Things like tributes to heroes, news from the front, the latest from our borders, crime and punishment, current events, and funny shit members find (that is applicable to our community). I like to discuss these issues with like-minded individuals. Irishluck reads the news so I don't have too. :p There is a lot of bullshit too. This leads to bickering, which I can't stand.
Now, with that said.....with the amount of new members as of late, there has been a general decline in the cumulative IQ of the class. Like others have stated, I am getting sick of it too. If these issues are pushing away our IP's, SME's and potential future SME/IP's, I say OFF WITH ITS HEAD!
This is the only forum I frequent. I would like to see it stay the way it "was". If we can not weed out the bullshit and control it as others have suggested, then I sadly change my vote to yes.
I wouldn't miss it that much.
There are occasional good posts in there that I find interesting, but I'm really here for the gun talk.
Like others have said, I'd worry about the bleed-over of 5th grade crap into other areas.
I don't care either way but lean toward removing it..........so I voted yes.
Scoby
Littlelebowski
05-26-10, 15:45
This is not a democracy. Mods, please make a command decision.
I've been thinking about this the last 24 hours, I know... that may be scary, but here goes.
I realize that this forum, or any forum for that matter, isn't about making friends, nor is it about measuring Epeen sizes, or at least it shouldn't be. That being said, it is a collection of fairly like minded people with a common interest. Which, by all accounts is very similar to what some people might call acquaintances.
I liken it to going to a training class. At first, all you have in common with the people there is the fact that you're at the same place doing the same thing. But if you talk to people, offer a hand to shake, you might just make some acquaintances along the way. I recently went to a Magpul class, and it correlates pretty well to this example. Some were there only to shoot, didn't talk much. Some shook hands and introduced themselves during the down time. Some went and had a beer after class. I met some really great people. Mark, Kevin, Steve, Gil and Cameron to name a few. We didn't just talk about guns or shooting or technique. We had your run of the mill conversations about a wide variety of topics.
Imagine for a second that if you knew some people who were like minded, and all you ever talked about was guns/shooting. How boring would that be after a while? Probably pretty boring. Now, I'm not saying some of the topics in GD aren't just flat out over the top when it comes to unnecessary, but there's been some pretty good conversations in there as well.
Again, I'm not saying people should/do come here looking for friendship, but it sure is nicer when you enjoy going somewhere to know someone for something other than "Oh, that guys an expert on Suppressors." Knowing more about someone gives a hell of a lot of context in relation to what they post. I for one, am not a one topic kind of person. I know people that are like that, and generally speaking, they're good for about 5 minutes of my attention. I think that applies here because many of the same questions pop up over and over.... and over again.
In essence, it's good to have something other than suppressors and muzzle breaks and magazines to talk about from time to time. Yeah, I could do that elsewhere, but I visit this site during work when I need a quick break from the grind. I've got plenty of acquaintances in my home town to fill all the rest of my days moving furniture or chopping down trees to talk with them about stuff they wanna talk about. Here, I can pick and choose the topics of interest and interact if I want to.
Possible solution? What about the addition of some GD mods? (someone else mentioned that earlier) If a topic starts to go sideways, it gets locked. If the troublemakers repost one of those "Well the other thread got locked" thread, give 'em an infraction. That way the Current mods can be freed up a bit to take care of more serious issues.
There's my .48 cents.
PS. If all you had to read was one book, it'd get boring after a while to keep reading the same thing over and over.... and over.
I voted to can the GD.
I'd vote to keep it if it was intensely moderated, and members had to earn a right to post there in some way. Better conversation, less peanut gallery.
I believe I am going to end up having to quote this thread a lot in the future to remind folks that they wanted to keep GD around with better moderation, and more thread locking, and so on....
The problem with "anything goes" discussion is that there are no limits in either direction, and no real arbiter of what is acceptable and what isn't.
Lock a controversial thread and watch how what should be evident as the "right thing to do" FOR THE FORUM becomes a 50/50 split on "WTF? vs. Right on!" It's Lord of the Flies in GD, and a royal pain in the ass.
I'm going to moderate GD without a conscience.
We need a General GUN Discussion forum.
EDIT: with no freakin politics
Jay Cunningham
05-26-10, 16:09
I believe I am going to end up having to quote this thread a lot in the future to remind folks that they wanted to keep GD around with better moderation, and more thread locking, and so on....
You're not the only one who is going to remember this thread when the time comes - and believe me it will.
Give 'em what they want... and lots of it.
I believe I am going to end up having to quote this thread a lot in the future to remind folks that they wanted to keep GD around with better moderation, and more thread locking, and so on....
The problem with "anything goes" discussion is that there are no limits in either direction, and no real arbiter of what is acceptable and what isn't.
Lock a controversial thread and watch how what should be evident as the "right thing to do" FOR THE FORUM becomes a 50/50 split on "WTF? vs. Right on!" It's Lord of the Flies in GD, and a royal pain in the ass.
I'm going to moderate GD without a conscience.
I'm hopeful it will become a bit more self moderating once the regulars get a feel for where mods start drawing the boundries & make your jobs less painful.
I certainly don't want a 'anything goes' on the gd & would hope those engauged in their particular threads help keep it civil on touchy subjects. I'll gladly submit what I feel is an offensive post to the staff if I think it will turn the thread to the dark side. Vulgar or Personal attacks have no place and I'll try to help keep the gd M4 worthy the best I can.
Saludos,
Paul
For the record, I really liked the robot dog thread :cool: :), and again if the thread seems like something that will annoy you, I suggest not bothering to click on it. Keeping the GD threads out of the "new threads" function also sounds like a really good idea, because if we want to get into the pig pen, we know where we can find the GD forum :D
But some of you have made great points about the mods being abused by having to moderate lame threads in the GD forum. The forum could not run in an orderly manner without the mods, who are volunteering their time to do the job, so ultimately, if the mods decide it is too difficult and too time consuming to keep the GD forum orderly, then the mods ought to vote whether or not they can keep the GD forum alive, pure and simple.
HAMMERDROP
05-26-10, 16:32
I voted 'NO' but I can see what the mods are up against its their decision.
Michael
Littlelebowski
05-26-10, 16:32
You're not the only one who is going to remember this thread when the time comes - and believe me it will.
Give 'em what they want... and lots of it.
Folks, this is a hint from the mods.
I've been thinking about this all day long as well. If I boil it down to what I visit this sight for it has of course absolutely nothing to do with politics. I am also not looking at it from the staff's point of view. It is quite obvious that the GD has become a major thorn in the side of the staff, moderators, etc. In my opinion after some more thought, if that's what it takes to make this sight better then go away with it. If it this much pain for the guys that run M4C and it ultimately takes away from their ability and time to improve knowledge of everything firearms related then let it go away. If things like rob s' idea of a 200 minimum post count cannot be implemented then so be it. I personally like the GD and I hate to sound like a hypocrite b/c I voted no but after reading the staff's observations my vote I guess would be yes or no. Meaning I think the staff should make the decision based on what they think is best. I trust you guys with info on firearms and other related topics. I know y'all will do the right and best thing in this decision as well.
Folks, this is a hint from the mods.
Sure it is. So, was the vote just for "feel goods"?
If it was for opinions, great, it worked, but like you said, this ain't no democracy.
Command decision it should be. Either way, still the best information available on the net. *shrugs*
Littlelebowski
05-26-10, 16:49
If some of our best, most even handed mods are dropping hints like that, I'd rather not see them burn out. If the answer is "just police the shit out of GD," they will burn out.
The GD page 1 menu, as it currently reads beyond the stickys and this thread...
*State of the Art Shooting Facilities (Germany)
*Moles? Go see a skin doc!
*Gear heads
*Need Some Help From Any Naval Academy Grads or Navy Guys!!!
*BAJADORES : They are here for real...
*GREAT NY Times article on our troops in Afghanistan
*Obama to send 1,200 National Guard troops to the border
*Officer shot and killed in Phoenix.
*Top Official Says Feds May Not Process Illegals Referred From Arizona
*The Current Oil Situation Is Becoming Our Nightmare And Obama's Legacy
*Crutchfield
*AR15 Gas Trap?
* Hip Replacement
*Passing of a Good Man
*Gov Chris Christie laying down the law in New Jersey
*The latest version of the Little Dog robot
*The good Lord help me!!
*anyone know what kind of fake silencer this is?
* gun safe?
For the most part, this is a cross section of the daily activity. Doesn't really seem all that horrible if you ask me. And I suspect we can likely find a post or two in them from one of the naysayers here.
Recently a series of 3 threads had to be condensed into 1, and the reason for it was apparent. That type of stuff is what some might call overdone and even detrimental. But there's no need to throw the baby away with the bathwater.
militarymoron
05-26-10, 16:58
We need a General GUN Discussion forum.
EDIT: with no freakin politics
there's not much general gun discussion that doesn't fit in the current categories. usually, it's gun laws and politics that gets discussed in gun GD sections, or there's some duplication of topics.
Lightning Struck
05-26-10, 16:59
I'm a lurker, with very few posts, most probably in the GD forum. I may not be an expert in firearms, however I have extensive experience in the automotive field.. Hence the majority of my posts are in the Gearhead thread in GD..
The main reason I joined M4C was the ability to private message people with questions about what I was reading. With the help of many people on this forum I built my first rifle.
Now I peruse the technical side of the site a couple times a week to catch up on new developments, but the main reason I log in daily is to see Irishluck's news clippings. I wouldn't normally see these stories without extensive digging, and he does a great job at diligently informing the people of this site.
It would be a shame to allow a few sour apples ruin the fun, but I can also realize that it's a PITA to moderate everything..
citizensoldier16
05-26-10, 17:27
In any group, organization, corporation, or online forum there are specific places to discuss certain items. It is my position that M4C and its moderators have done a superb job in providing us, the membership, with a list of forums that encompasses all aspects of our love for firearms. After spending a great deal of time reading, researching, and posting on this site, I have realized that the members of M4C are the most talented, steadfast, and most importantly the most knowledgeable group of firearms enthusiasts on the internet today. The forums have been designed and implemented as to be specific to topics which are related to each other, while at the same time separated in order to provide us, the membership, with ease of access to the information which we seek. For this, we owe our moderators a great deal of thanks for their hard work and perseverance.
Some of our members share close personal friends or acquaintances on this site, while others are simply here because they have come to the conclusion that we are truly unique in our dedication to the pursuit of perfection in whatever context that may be. I feel that this is one of the greatest groups of people who have come together, not only to discuss and to pass on information, but to celebrate each day with our diligence and participation, a common interest. We hail from all walks of life: military/contractors and civilians alike; firefighters, doctors, lawyers, tradesmen and students. We have come together, not out of a desire to simply spout useless self-truths, but to learn from each other and to pass on our own knowledge in such a selfless manner so that others may benefit from it. We very well might be the worlds largest and most well-versed firearms brotherhood.
As I stated earlier, every group has certain places to discuss certain ideas. We have wonderful forums available to us in order to discuss our individual passions. However, the GD forum offers us, the membership, an opportunity and a location to discuss matters or questions which are not directly firearms, training, parts or services related.
Each day, and often multiple times per day, I come to M4C in order to increase my knowledge in the areas of marksmanship, training, hardware, and maintenence of a weapons platform which has become very dear to me. I use the knowledge gained here to better myself and to improve my understanding. However, there are times when I wish to confide in the membership and discuss something other than the above-mentioned topics with people who are truly like me. Sure, not everyone shares my specific political viewpoints, or my humor, or my sense of duty to this country.
However we are all brothers in a sense, and it is my belief that the GD forum provides us with a location to unwind mentally and share with others like us anecdotes from our lives which may interest others. It offers us an opportunity to laugh, sigh, smile, frown or laud something other than the singular purpose which has brought us all together from far away places. The GD forum is, in essence, the breakroom of M4C.
With such a viewpoint in mind, I have voted NO to the removal of the GD forum in hopes that it will remain in order to further sustain us when all we need is a diversion from our chosen craft. In this sense, I hope the GD forum will remain, and I hope our moderators will not become overwhelmed by fruitless posts, but look upon them as momentary diversions from our intended purposes and goals.
If threads become too overwhelmed or stray from their intended purpose, then obviously they need to be policed. This is the burden of being a moderator. If any moderator decides that he or she no longer wishes to perform their duties in doing so, let there be no shame in passing the torch. But to shut down an outlet for our members because those in charge are becoming weary of ensuring that that place does not become overwhelmed seems a disservice to our membership.
In my trade, superiors spend 50% of their time supervising and 50% of their time training their own replacements. I sincerely hope that this concept will take hold here at M4C; and I also hope that the GD forum remains for those of us who frequent it and enjoy what it has to offer, but at the same time honor the unspoken rules and sets of standards which we, as brothers, have agreed to abide by.
I voted yes, I'm just here to learn and if I can contribute or post something useful I will. I won't miss the GD section one bit :D
the main reason I log in daily is to see Irishluck's news clippings. I wouldn't normally see these stories without extensive digging, and he does a great job at diligently informing the people of this site.
This has been mentioned about 1/2 dozen times in this thread alone and I appreciate you and everyone else mentioning it. I'll admit to posting quite a few threads in the GD section but my honest intentions are for the benefit of the membership of M4C. Depending on the outcome of this poll and the mods decision to let the GD section fly or not I'll continue to keep posting news articles that I feel are relevant.
I've brought up the idea of making a sub-forum thread section on several occasions for "gun news" articles in threads and I've messaged several mods and none of the mods has ever PM'ed me back as to the status of their discussion on the matter. As for now I'll wait until the outcome is determined and then proceed accordingly from there.
chiefhubbard
05-26-10, 18:38
There is one very useful function of GD for a board like M4C which I'm surprised no one has brought up.
While it may be self-evident to those that have been around this forum and the AR platform for a long time, figuring out who knows shit and who knows shinola can be difficult. Peoples' purported credentials mean little to nothing on an Internet forum (even this one) and the GD helps to separate the chaffe so to speak. Yes the SME and INDUSTRY PROFESSIONAL designators are there but there are others on the board just as knowledgeable who don't fall into those categories. Observing the conversations of others in GD often is an indicator who to listen to and who not to listen to.
That's what I meant on post #93, just used different words. ;)
I voted no, but now I think GD has to go because it's getting ridiculous. I have to go to other gun website forums to look for information and new things going on because most of the time there isn't anything new in the gun related forums here on M4C.net.
Most of the traffic is in GD.
I voted yes. If it would help the mods do their job on other sections, then I'm for it's removal.
A possible alternative might be to remove any political discussion like theakforum.net does. However I don't know if that has really helped that forum or if it would translate well to here.
outrider627
05-26-10, 18:52
As a lurker, I think GD should stay. Posting in/reading the same one or two sub forums gets boring. Having a GD makes for a more diversified and complete forum experience.
For example, I used to go to 1911Forum every day. But they don't have a GD, and eventually, I read and learned enough about 1911s that I got bored of the place. I now rarely go there unless I need to read up on a specific tech/smithing issue.
I like this place. Its a good site to escape from the 4chan bullshit that has taken over ARFCOM. GD should stay, a post requirement like rob_s suggested would probably be a good idea. If GD gets outta hand, thats what the mods' banhammer is for. Let it be swift and unmerciful like the rage of the thunder god :D.
I voted no, but now I think GD has to go because it's getting ridiculous. I have to go to other gun website forums to look for information and new things going on because most of the time there isn't anything new in the gun related forums here on M4C.net.
Most of the traffic is in GD.
This is incorrect. The AR general discussion forum is more than double and the Handgun forum also has more members.
I do not know of any other forum that has more accurate and technical info than this one.
C4
I voted no, but now I think GD has to go because it's getting ridiculous. I have to go to other gun website forums to look for information and new things going on because most of the time there isn't anything new in the gun related forums here on M4C.net.
Most of the traffic is in GD.
You voted no and then just like that had such a sudden epiphany? In one day? :confused:
Anyhow, GD does not get the most traffic. AR GD always does, usually followed by handguns, AR tech, also sometimes other assault rifles.
I do not know of any other forum that has more accurate and technical info than this one.
I don't know of any either. But I end up going to those other forums anyway because there's nothing new and interesting for me to read here. There always seems to be far more new posts in GD, than say Other Assault Rifles, which is what I frequent the most.
Maybe I'm the only one who feels that way.
You voted no and then just like that had such a sudden epiphany? In one day?
ehhh........I'm just not taking it seriously.
parishioner
05-26-10, 19:17
Just make it less annoying to the people who get annoyed by it. Just remove the GD posts from "new posts" or make them last. If you want to see new posts in GD, just go to GD. Are there any other ways it can bother someone besides clicking on the forum?
chiefhubbard
05-26-10, 19:29
I don’t like the idea of a limit on post’s till a person can post on GD, look at the MIL who just came back and is all shot up or whatever, and the LEO who is new to the force. They done their time and duty but can’t post on GD because they don’t have 200 post’s? I put my 21 years in the military and am total and permanent disabled because of it. Now I don’t have 200 post’s as I do more reading, guess I should post more and I won’t disagree with you, but there are lots of us that have been there and we have gravitated here because of the subject matter and familiarity of the members. That’s not to say that everyone is or has to be a MIL/LEO, but I feel that we did our posts in a different arena where the targets weren’t paper. I’d hate to tell them that they have to wait till they post X times somewhere before they can post on the GD. I say keep it but enforce the concept of the GD and when someone or the thread goes astray, correct them or lock it down, not the whole damn GD. But like I said, I read more than post, and I feel that I am better for it as I have learned a lot. Whatever is decided I will go along with it because I have to, but I won’t go away. Here’s to the readers.
Personally I never hit the "new posts" button, simply because half of the boards do not interest me and there is no reason for me to see what is posted there. Just because they do not interest me does not mean those boards should be removed, nor do they take anything away from the ones I do read.
The forum shows what boards have new posts, and the individual boards show what posts are new, it is easy enough to check the boards without being bothered by things you do not want to read.
I don’t like the idea of a limit on post’s till a person can post on GD, look at the MIL who just came back and is all shot up or whatever, and the LEO who is new to the force. They done their time and duty but can’t post on GD because they don’t have 200 post’s? I put my 21 years in the military and am total and permanent disabled because of it. Now I don’t have 200 post’s as I do more reading, guess I should post more and I won’t disagree with you, but there are lots of us that have been there and we have gravitated here because of the subject matter and familiarity of the members. That’s not to say that everyone is or has to be a MIL/LEO, but I feel that we did our posts in a different arena where the targets weren’t paper. I’d hate to tell them that they have to wait till they post X times somewhere before they can post on the GD. I say keep it but enforce the concept of the GD and when someone or the thread goes astray, correct them or lock it down, not the whole damn GD. But like I said, I read more than post, and I feel that I am better for it as I have learned a lot. Whatever is decided I will go along with it because I have to, but I won’t go away. Here’s to the readers.
What on earth does military or LE service have to do with posting in general discussion?
Just make it less annoying to the people who get annoyed by it. Just remove the GD posts from "new posts" or make them last. If you want to see new posts in GD, just go to GD. Are there any other ways it can bother someone besides clicking on the forum?
I don't think it's so much people getting annoyed by it as douchebags that linger in GD and eventually wind up spreading their douchery around to other sections.
thopkins22
05-26-10, 19:49
eventually wind up spreading their douchery around to other sections.
In my mind the only true issue of late. I'm sure policing the GD is time consuming, but that can be handled through different means. Minimum numbers of posts, time on the board, more moderators, or something else.
So what I feel needs to be addressed are the other sections. I think F2S hit the nail on the head in the other thread when he said that the only true solution is for the membership to step up and give good answers or directions to good answers on repeat threads, and reporting posts that are out of line, misleading, or blatant lies.
comment retracted, thread's too hot.
I don't know of any either. But I end up going to those other forums anyway because there's nothing new and interesting for me to read here. There always seems to be far more new posts in GD, than say Other Assault Rifles, which is what I frequent the most.
This is M4C, not M1A. So you are never going to see that many members in the "Other Assault Rifles."
C4
Because the soldier is all shot up and deserves to post stuff because of his service. Does he not have that right?
What's up Rob? You don't like soldiers? Are you anti-American? :p:D
I think you are looking to instigate trouble in an otherwise serious thread.
Perhaps folks who boast of their Taurus being a "cannon" in between snippy remarks are why we are here right now. Let's reflect.
NMBigfoot02
05-26-10, 20:07
I voted yes simply because of the migration factor. That and it serves as a doorway for trolls from other parts of the net.
I like the minimum post count idea. Additionally, I don't reply to stuff if I think it's stupid. Peruse a thread-don't like it , drive on. Reply and get spun up and waste your time, tough titty.
While I don't play around on the net like I used to, I would say the worst, most asinine argument here is better than one anywhere else. Except Lightfighter:D.
I voted no..
Where would threads like this (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=54574) go without it?
Unless a forum along the lines of 'OSINT' is made, for such threads to the detriment of cat/obama/food threads.
Army Chief
05-26-10, 20:29
Look at the membership registration dates of those most strongly in favor of keeping GD, and you will very likely have your confirmation that changing demographics have accounted for much of the cultural shift that is raising the hackles of those with several years of active membership. I don't say that to be divisive, but with rapid growth comes a periodic obligation to re-boresight, if we wish to stay true to our founding ideals.
We can pretend that there is a lot more middle ground here than there actually is, but this would seem to be one of those times. Either we're committed to this culture of professionalism, or we are speeding toward a popular irrelevance. There are 1,000 other places to go online to talk about toaster pastries and riding lawnmowers (or whatever): to my mind, M4CN does not need to be one of those places.
This is not a time to respond to a popular vote: this is a time for the site ownership to make a decision about the direction they want this resource to go in the future.
AC
it's probably been said, but this is a long thread and i'm not gonna read the whole thing-
putting a minimum post requirement on GD is probably just going to lead to more retarded, un-wanted, empty comments in the other subforums. i'm getting really tired of posts that contribute abso****inglutely nothing to the thread.
- Listen more than you talk.
- Talk when you have something worthwhile to say.
- Say it in as respectful a manner as possible.
- Strive to stay within the boundaries of your knowledge.
- Understand that others may have valid reasons to disagree with something you say and don't let that offend you.
- Humility is a marvelous personality trait and is encouraged here.
This is an awesome bullet point list of things you should aim for to be a good learner/student, but is this a standard that can be consistently enforced by moderators on people who are unwilling to self regulate and probably usually don't even know what they don't know?
With success comes exposure to the masses and an ever increasing burden on those who have to moderate the result.
I do kinda agree with bkb that eliminating GD might just result in more useless posts in other forums.
Instead of (or maybe in addition to) a minimum post count, how about requiring that users be registered for at least 3 or 6 months prior to posting in GD. That would help ensure that the people who are posting have been around (and stayed around) long enough to understand what kind of site M4C is.
I've been a member for several years but don't post much. I usually only post when I feel I have something valuable to add. I understand that it's important to encourage active participation in the forums, but post count alone doesn't seem like a good indicator. In my opinion, the folks who join and exhibit diarrhea of the keyboard, hitting 200 posts in a week or so, are the ones that are responsible for most of the TOS type stuff we've been seeing lately.
Just my admittedly biased opinion as a long time member and occasional poster, but I think that the amount of time someone has been here would be a better indicator than just their post count.
I do kinda agree with bkb that eliminating GD might just result in more useless posts in other forums.
oh no- i'm totally for eliminating GD. my argument is that requiring people to post elsewhere first will goober the works.
i think taking away GD altogether will make this board boring enough that the lame-asses will wander off entirely.
John_Wayne777
05-26-10, 20:57
This is an awesome bullet point list of things you should aim for to be a good learner/student, but is this a standard that can be consistently enforced by moderators on people who are unwilling to self regulate and probably usually don't even know what they don't know?
Not by moderators alone, in my view...but as tenets of a culture that is exhibited by 90+% of the board it can be very effectively enforced. Signing up here should not be viewed as merely showing up on a web board...it should be viewed as joining a community that includes some pretty heavy hitters. Therefore a certain level of decorum and etiquette should be observed at all times.
When we get the vast majority to commit to those ideals and accept them as an organizing principle, then showing the party crashers the door will be easy.
With success comes exposure to the masses and an ever increasing burden on those who have to moderate the result.
I'm not so much worried about the burden on our poor moderators as I am the direction of the board. My goal here is to preserve what is important to me in a resource I've found to be enormously helpful over the years.
Whether GD stays or not, I think that a decidedly more aggressive style of moderation is going to result from all of this because a lot of us can recognize that there have been problems...and unfortunately the only way to fix the problems is going to be busting some heads. This will make some people unhappy because they aren't getting their way. What we need from the rest of the community is the realization that if we're going to keep the clubhouse some place that we'd like to enjoy, the bouncers are going to have to toss those who would tear the place up out on their ass.
.... look at the MIL who just came back and is all shot up or whatever, and the LEO who is new to the force. They done their time and duty but can’t post on GD because they don’t have 200 post’s? I put my 21 years in the military and am total and permanent disabled because of it....
I understand your concern. What we hope is that vets like you, who have tidbits or volumes of information stored away will actually post in a two-way discussion forum. Conveying your knowledge where you see it as a best fit would do wonders for making our technical forums more robust with actual knowledge.
I hope to see you participate more in the two-way discussions going forward.
Thanks for your service.
Most of the time I'm to busy to check all of news going on day to day. I've learned of a lot stuff going on through this forum it would be a shame to eliminate it. IMO.
Pathfinder Ops
05-26-10, 21:53
Because the soldier is all shot up and deserves to post stuff because of his service. Does he not have that right?
What's up Rob? You don't like soldiers? Are you anti-American? :p:D
Oh man... this is uncalled for.....
It's also the sort of ass clown postings that this thread was designed to address.
Kal.... I'm a Vet; a Combat Vet for that matter and at no time do I feel that earns me a right to say anything on this or any other forum. These are privately held institutions subject to the rules set by the admin folks.
I also didn't read in Rob_s's post nor anyone else's anything derogatory towards Vets.... Where did your post come from?
Get some control Bro. Which is also kinda what this thread is about............. weeding out undesirable posts.
Wow.... I guess I shoulda seen that coming.
Jay Cunningham
05-26-10, 22:20
It didn't take long for this thread to devolve into the feces that comprises most of GD.
Congratulations.
^^^^
That last comment by The_Katar is why I vote to get rid of GD. As a disclaimer: I'm not a frequent poster, but I'm a very frequent visitor.
Everytime I poke my head into GD, numerous threads have turned into bitchfests, arguments, or soapboxes and I regret reading some of the drivel. There are some threads that are entertaining and some that are informative. I think the GD forum will stick around though as it holds some value.
GD is kind of like that one guy in your group of friends that you don't really like. You could live without him, but you put up with him since other people like him and have hime keep coming around. You'd probably even miss him after a while.
Is it to late to change my vote?
I was just kidding around, and did not try to insult military personell, regardless of what some members might say, and did not try to maliciously insult Rob S.
This thread is too hot. I'm out.......
edit: I'm also retracting comments. Don't need any mod PM's.
Is it to late to change my vote?
i think if you filter out anyone who's been here less than a year and/or non-senior members, the "yes" votes would spike. does the software allow that kind of statting?
citizensoldier16
05-26-10, 22:49
This is not a time to respond to a popular vote: this is a time for the site ownership to make a decision about the direction they want this resource to go in the future.
I find this opinion troubling...sounds like the current administration's outlook on American politics and healthcare.
Well I posted my opinion at length on page 9 of the responses. I hope at least one person read it. Whatever the moderators decide, I guess we all will have to live with it.
SeriousStudent
05-26-10, 22:54
I am a guest in this house. An appreciative guest.
I do appreciate some of the posts in GD. I often skip many of the others.
Most of all, I'm appreciative of the investment of time and knowledge by the mods, staff, IP's, SME's and the many other talented folks. If losing GD means keeping all that, it's a pretty easy check to write.
And regarding the impending cleanup, most of us have seen it coming for a long time. Frankly, I welcome it.
My thanks to the folks that will be doing the heavy lifting. I will try hard to help.
The staff has a chance to stop this site from devolving into just another arfcom/kitchenaidusers/kubota forum by upholding the tenants that made it great: serious people with first hand knowledge intelligently discussing things of common interest.
Mods and members need to return to keeping people in their lanes, with a hammer.
I don't care what your favorite TV show is.
On edit: Industry Professional beside your name means something, post count is a weak litmus test.
After seeing how many people want it removed and the others that want a post count to be able to post there, it seems to add up to a large amount of people.
Why not make it like the LEO forum and have people apply for access? This would keep it off the "new posts" for people that do not want to see it, would limit access for new members until their posts are screened(or whatever the determining factors would be). If there is an opt-out feature people can remove themselves if it isnt something they want to be involved with.
While there is some questionable things posted here, there is also some good things like updates on gun laws and information on civilian defensive shootings.
Though this place can get bad, it isn't nearly as bad or stupid as some other places that shall remain nameless. I guess that is the price we pay.
Now if I were a Buddist, I would be concerned that when I died I might be forced to return as a moderator for this section in my next life.
I voted no, but have no strong opinion either way.
I've been a member for almost 2 years now, visit several times a week (if not daily), and have read a ton of threads/info on this great site. If not for throwing out the occasional comment in GD or wherever my post count would be almost non-existent. And that's okay.
I like finding, and can enjoy, somewhat random or lighthearted threads as much as the next guy but I can see where some are coming from.
The reason M4C is my only bookmarked weapon related site is because of the tech discussions and other great info.
If the brass thinks it should go then so be it.
I agree with Rob_s solution as well. I come here every day to check for news related stories I might not have found otherwise. It is useful to me in keeping up-to-date on material that I would not be exposed too. I also think m4staff should be finger on the trigger for /ban on idiots and agitators. Maybe even no warning bans, just straight up kicked. I'd go as far to say make the board unviewable by non-members entirely. Send the arfcom people back to arfcom, they won't last long with a more draconian ruleset.
I posted before that I do not think a post count in the tech forums to be able to post in GD will add to the site. I will add that I think a post count of 200, without having GD to post on is basically ridiculous. Just look at how many people have less than that or somewhere around it and have been here for 1, 2, or 3 years and were able to post on GD.
Maybe using the EE rule of 30 posts might be a good place to start, since EE posts can screw people out of money, GD posts just annoy people.
thopkins22
05-27-10, 00:38
I for one have been stewing this over. I'd like to retract my endorsement of 200 posts to get to GD. If anything I've decided that it should be the other way around.
Many people post in General Discussion exclusively because they have no business posting in the tech forums. This is probably a good thing, as if there isn't quality information to be gleaned from them, we don't want to encourage false information.
We want less questionable information posted there, not more.
Screw it. Perhaps dumping it for six months and then bringing it back on a trial basis would be a good thing. Or reduce it to purely political, or purely self defense related topics.
RancidSumo
05-27-10, 01:47
A lot of folks READ all of the other subforums, but realize they have nothing to really add to the discussion. They get to read all of the great information available on M4C regarding guns and then BS in GD with folks who share their hobby/passion/business interest in defensive firearms.
Politics and current events WILL get into any forum, the GD allows an outlet for these without trashing good firearm related threads.
This is pretty much where I'm at. I joined here, posted a lot, made myself look like an idiot, and have now realized I should just avoid posting in the technical forums because I don't have anything of value to add. As a result, now I just read those and occasionally post here in the GD. Eventually I hope to be useful in those other areas but until then I enjoy being able to read them and interact with the members of the site here in the GD while hearing about news that I otherwise would never see.
My vote is to keep it.
variablebinary
05-27-10, 04:31
Edit:
I would like to see the following: Link an M4C thread that shows exactly how GD is a sign of M4C's culture going downhill.
Anyone want to provide proof of concept because if you are going to complain about GD, show us what you mean instead of abstractly hinting. Lets not be PC about this.
I'm not sure why this is a big deal. It isnt like GD is a super high traffic section of the site. I'm looking at GD now and the majority of topics on the first page, the most important page are military/LEO/political related, and some of the threads haven't had a new post in over 12hrs.
This really isnt that big of deal.
On edit: Industry Professional beside your name means something, post count is a weak litmus test.
It's not meant as a "litmus test". It's meant as an indicator that the person has been a contributing member to the forums that are the driving reason for the site's existence before being allowed to flap their cockholster about whatever strikes their fancy.
I think it would be a shame to see GD go. The truth is that it does increase traffic to the site. I have seen some folks mention 10-8 and their lack of a GD section, but nobody has mentioned the corresponding lack of posts about anything at all. That site is like a ghost town.
Also, a much as I've bitched about GD in the past, reading some of the other posters' vehement opinions that it should be nixed entirely has kind of held a mirror up to me and I don't like what I see. As I posted in the "twitterfication" thread if you don't like something don't click on it. I go months at a time without reading a thread in GD. I would like the site better if GD didn't show up in "new posts" or I had an option to exclude it, but otherwise frankly it's been pretty easy for me to ignore that portion of the site, what with free will and all.
So I change my suggestion a bit. I think GD should be moved to the bottom of the forum list and I think we should be given a "new topics tech" button which excludes GD from the results. That's it. The people that are incapable of not clicking on something they don't want to read are frankly just as bad as the people posting twitter threads.
QuickStrike
05-27-10, 04:57
Yes, if all you want is a dry ass technical forum devoid of any fun.
Every forum needs a watercooler section to have off-topic dicussions IMO.
Can't be that hard to simply delete crappy posts/replies and have a 3 strikes a year rule or something... Be an absolute retard 3 times in a year and you're out(banned).
Dunno, ultimately depends on what the staff thinks/wants.
Edit: 3 strikes a month would work well also.
Does the avatar count as one strike? :p
2 things I'd like to challenge: First, on military vets posting: I've seen more completely wrong-headed bullshit posted by military veterans on the M4 carbine, that I automatically assume if they are former .mil, they are full of shit. So former .mil status means little to me, independent of actual technical expertise. And, yes, it wasn't until I had 20 years of military service that I actually started learning something about the AR series of rifles.
Second, on not clicking on stupid posts and dog-piling newbies: If you ignore them, they will sooner or later start answering each others' posts with complete bullshit. Then, the bullshit will start getting deeper and deeper, until this is ARFCOM. Soon the long-term membership will wander away. Ignoring stupidity won't stop it. Ask any small native population what happens when outsiders start moving in; they change the culture of an organization completely.
I will debate that that is often a good thing for physical cultures, but in technically oriented forums, it is the kiss of death.
I've seen in a few forums that the "GD" area is actually the only area new members can post in at the start, with read only access to the rest of the forum. Once someone has established that they 'fit in' (ie by managing to make x-amount of posts without getting themselves banned) then they get posting privileges across the board.
While this doesn't directly address the issue of needing more moderation, it might provide a filter to protect the integrity of the rest of the board. If a minimum post requirement outside of GD is set, then does that risk needing heavier moderation across the whole board as the new users like myself 'spread out' across the topics more? You could almost consider GD to be a 'bottleneck of stupidity' :D
Magic_Salad0892
05-27-10, 06:28
I vote to keep it.
There is nothing more for me to add, that hasn't been said in this thread.
Rob's idea was good. If it's decided people are posting just to post, then ban them.
Army Chief
05-27-10, 07:12
I am a guest in this house. An appreciative guest.
I do appreciate some of the posts in GD. I often skip many of the others.
Most of all, I'm appreciative of the investment of time and knowledge by the mods, staff, IP's, SME's and the many other talented folks. If losing GD means keeping all that, it's a pretty easy check to write.
And regarding the impending cleanup, most of us have seen it coming for a long time. Frankly, I welcome it.
My thanks to the folks that will be doing the heavy lifting. I will try hard to help.
SS,
How is it that every time -- without exception -- that I see you post anything on this resource, I always come away impressed with your attitude, maturity and personal humility? I'm more than a little surprised that you haven't been pressed into service as a Moderator yourself, because you would make a very fine one indeed.
Parting shot: GD is not the problem: it is merely a symptom. Unless we can find a way to effectively imprint the site's professionalism ethic upon newcomers while still sustaining site growth, we will see these kinds of problems develop on every board hosted by this forum. All GD is doing is providing us with some insight into which members are having the most difficulty in getting the message.
AC
John_Wayne777
05-27-10, 07:18
Can't be that hard to simply delete crappy posts/replies
It's really easy to delete "crappy posts".
What is not easy is the fallout from doing so or defining a "crappy post". One man's crappy, useless, utterly embarrassing post is another man's idea of freedom of speech. The minute you lock a thread or delete a post or tell somebody to knock it the hell off and stop being an embarrassment, you're treated to complaints, allegations about unfairness, somebody sending links to another thread where somebody else said something and nobody banned/infracted/warned him about it, the accusation that you're just pushing your agenda, etc.
"UNLEASH THE MODS!!!" sounds great in theory, but in practice when moderators/staffers take aggressive action they generally get a bunch of static about it. Then staff has to spend valuable time reviewing whether or not mod X really does have an agenda and/or axe to grind against poster y, who has painted himself as being the innocent victim in all of it. That creates friction between mods and staffers because nobody likes to be second guessed all the time, and that generally makes everybody charged with stopping the madness more conservative than we ought to be to preserve what the board is about.
Mods who will thump somebody's skull at a moment's notice sounds like a really good idea...but the reality is that if a mod/staffer simply addresses someone in a tone that could in any way be characterized as brusque, there are a dozen e-mails and PM's crying about it.
I agree with Army Chief that this is, at the core, a cultural problem. M4C is like a club. People are supposed to join clubs based on a common interest and some common values. Unfortunately we're finding people joining the club without any respect for those things that are supposed to drive the site. As a result we've got people ticked off that you can't relentlessly bash cops, that you can't call military personnel "welfare leeches" (yes, that's a real quote), bitching that everybody is "bashing" their Taurus/Olympic Arms/Airsoft rail system/whatever, etc. Now those types of people may not have anything better to do than to spew their butthurt all over the place, but I'd dare say that most of us reading and running the site sure as hell do have better things to do than listen to them cry.
I'm all for ejecting them out on their heads...but it's really not that simple because those kinds of decisions are a judgment call, and a mod/staffers judgment will always be subject to being called into question. If, on the other hand, we get people to understand that the culture of M4C is the value in the site, and accept that the mods/staffers selected for their positions have been chosen specifically because they have a deep understanding of the culture and its importance and should thus be cut all the slack necessary to do what must be done to protect that culture...
Things will be a lot easier.
Parting shot: GD is not the problem: it is merely a symptom. Unless we can find a way to effectively imprint the site's professionalism ethic upon newcomers while still sustaining site growth, we will see these kinds of problems develop on every board hosted by this forum. All GD is doing is providing us with some insight into which members are having the most difficulty in getting the message.
AC
AC -
Thank you. I think that's the best description of the issue in the whole thread. Ultimately, it's not a forum setup problem, it's a human problem.
a PM exchange this morning reminded me of something.
you're always going to have three personality types on the internut forums.
you've got the "just the facts" guy that's only there for information
you've got the real-life loser who is only there looking for some kind of community he's incapable of generating in real life
you've got the guy that's only there for his own amusement and entertainment.
The truth is that most posters fall into at least two of those categories, if not all three. In my early days on TOS I was 100% #3. When this site started it coincided with a recent shift to almost 100% #1. Today I think I'm mostly #1 but certainly do fall into #3 from time to time. :p
I think you can have all three types and still have a successful forum, and I think that you can still have a GD that is all #1. I will again hold up the Gear Heads thread as something that I think is a great example of how GD should work. That thread has been awesome, and it's been great to discuss cars with other gun guys and address things like "yeah the xyz is great but is there enough trunk room for my rifle?":D
TOS, IMHO, is 50% #2 and 25% #3, and so the #1s get lost, frustrated, etc. and come here. M4C is more like 50% #1 and 25% #2 and #3, which is the best I think you can ever hope for on the internut. Keeping or killing GD won't change that ratio at all, but I think downplaying it or limiting access to it could help keep the 50% from losing ground to the other two.
Jay Cunningham
05-27-10, 07:43
What if we offered some of the senior members the custom title "Mentor"? Not quite a mod, but with full backing of staff and mods to help police new member silliness. Guys who have demonstrated no B.S. attitutes and who would be willing to "imprint the site's professionalism ethic upon newcomers"...
Just thinking out loud...
IMO, it is not TOS yet but the type of BS over there is bleeding over here on to this site. If getting rid of the GD will stop the BS from leaking down into the real forums then I am for it. Otherwise swift, consistent, heavy handed STAFF should fix GD.
Oh, I forgot. ZERO TOLERANCE with bitch slapping.
I voted "NO" on this. I haven't been here long .. but I do frequent several sites ... the GD subject has come up on several of them (to keep it or not?). I think if you get rid of it the GD type stuff will just spill over into other areas so why not keep GD and at least most of the antics will stay there and not spread out over the other forums. Just my .02
Ga Shooter
05-27-10, 07:58
What if we offered some of the senior members the custom title "Mentor"? Not quite a mod, but with full backing of staff and mods to help police new member silliness. Guys who have demonstrated no B.S. attitutes and who would be willing to "imprint the site's professionalism ethic upon newcomers"...
Just thinking out loud...
I really don't have a dog in this fight, but I will say that the forum in question is the one I look at the least and am most disappointed in overall. Katar seems to have a good idea in my opion but what are the requirements for the different "levels" of members now? What do you have to do to be a senior member, mod, sme. etc. ?
QuietShootr
05-27-10, 08:07
What if we offered some of the senior members the custom title "Mentor"? Not quite a mod, but with full backing of staff and mods to help police new member silliness. Guys who have demonstrated no B.S. attitutes and who would be willing to "imprint the site's professionalism ethic upon newcomers"...
Just thinking out loud...
I don't think that's a bad idea, especially since it might reduce the workload on the real mods to police some of the shitheadedness. I nominate bkb, as long as he takes that silly rap shit out of his sig line:D
Jay Cunningham
05-27-10, 08:07
"Senior Member" is an arbitrary software setting that activates at 1000 posts. I am thinking more along the lines of any guy known for his level head and no B.S. attitude, regardless of post count or join date.
Just thinking out loud, I think a Mentor selection process should involve a public nomination of a candidate by a member with that nomination then being seconded by another member. This candidate would then be in the running, and we would then ask them if they would be willing to be a Mentor.
The job would consist of mentoring new members who don't quite get what M4C is all about.
Once again, just thinking out loud.
citizensoldier16
05-27-10, 08:18
Not a bad idea The_Katar. I think that will truly help alleviate some of the overwhelmed feeling of a lot of the moderators. In addition, it adds an element of "police your own" to M4C.
More importantly, it will allow us to keep the GD forum, and hopefully make the content therein better for us all.
"Senior Member" is an arbitrary software setting that activates at 1000 posts. I am thinking more along the lines of any guy known for his level head and no B.S. attitude, regardless of post count or join date.
Just thinking out loud, I think a Mentor selection process should involve a public nomination of a candidate by a member with that nomination then being seconded by another member. This candidate would then be in the running, and we would then ask them if they would be willing to be a Mentor.
The job would consist of mentoring new members who don't quite get what M4C is all about.
Once again, just thinking out loud.
I think that would be a worthwhile concept to explore. I think the risk is in creating an image (either perceived or real) of some sort of "holier than thou" aristocracy where cronies can bully new folks. That could lead to a lot of pissing and moaning when one of the wrong sort gets "mentored". Not that the same thing doesn't happen to the mods, though, so perhaps it would be a good way to "evangelize" some of the M4C culture to new folks without dumping a bunch new load on the moderators.
"Senior Member" is an arbitrary software setting that activates at 1000 posts. I am thinking more along the lines of any guy known for his level head and no B.S. attitude, regardless of post count or join date.
Just thinking out loud, I think a Mentor selection process should involve a public nomination of a candidate by a member with that nomination then being seconded by another member. This candidate would then be in the running, and we would then ask them if they would be willing to be a Mentor.
The job would consist of mentoring new members who don't quite get what M4C is all about.
Once again, just thinking out loud.
This is an interesting idea. I have a couple folks in mind who I think would make great mentors here.
Questions would be do they want to be a mentor, what will be required of the mentor, what are the actual powers (if any) of a mentor, and who does that mentor report to?
What if we offered some of the senior members the custom title "Mentor"? Not quite a mod, but with full backing of staff and mods to help police new member silliness. Guys who have demonstrated no B.S. attitutes and who would be willing to "imprint the site's professionalism ethic upon newcomers"...
Just thinking out loud...
I think this is a good idea as long as all the m4 staff agree with the candidates. Being able to grow the site and keep the overall feel of the forums goals / attitudes really needs the help of the regular members who 'get it'...quite obvious that mods cannot be available 100% of the time to deal with the silliness.
You already see this happening in the other sections as the regulars know what is nonsense and not M4 fitting. Making the gd more member / self moderating should be a natural development now that head is exposed. Those who enjoy it will want to protect her.
What if we offered some of the senior members the custom title "Mentor"? Not quite a mod, but with full backing of staff and mods to help police new member silliness. Guys who have demonstrated no B.S. attitutes and who would be willing to "imprint the site's professionalism ethic upon newcomers"...
Just thinking out loud...
I like this idea....
I voted no
The main reason being that there is allot of money saving advice posted in this forum.
It's nice to be able to review things, other than firearms, such as watches, that save me, and I would guess allot of other people money by not having to be able to buy and T&E other gear ourselves.
I'm sure being a "mod",or"staff", is a pain in the ass sometimes, but if this sight is to remain the preimenent sight on gear and training, heavy moderation is needed anyway.
This sight is what it is because bull shit is not allowed to stand, and I hope it will always remain so.
FWIW, other than the for sale forums, this is the only sight I actually read.
The "police your own" idea is a good one if it is done with the right people.
By that I mean people who are not afraid to piss off someone if they are "out of there lane".
The only thing that has ever bothered me is when someone dances around the truth, it is what it is, so deal with it or this sight isn't for you.
"Senior Member" is an arbitrary software setting that activates at 1000 posts. I am thinking more along the lines of any guy known for his level head and no B.S. attitude, regardless of post count or join date.
Just thinking out loud, I think a Mentor selection process should involve a public nomination of a candidate by a member with that nomination then being seconded by another member. This candidate would then be in the running, and we would then ask them if they would be willing to be a Mentor.
The job would consist of mentoring new members who don't quite get what M4C is all about.
Once again, just thinking out loud.
That very well could work! If the right people were involved in helping to keep things on track...
"Senior Member" is an arbitrary software setting that activates at 1000 posts. I am thinking more along the lines of any guy known for his level head and no B.S. attitude, regardless of post count or join date.
Just thinking out loud, I think a Mentor selection process should involve a public nomination of a candidate by a member with that nomination then being seconded by another member. This candidate would then be in the running, and we would then ask them if they would be willing to be a Mentor.
The job would consist of mentoring new members who don't quite get what M4C is all about.
Once again, just thinking out loud.
Good idea, but time consuming. More than you might think. The forum I help moderate only has about 800 members, and we currently do what you are describing as far as mentoring. It's quite an ordeal with 800, I can only imagine what it would be like with the amount of members here.
It does seem to keep out the riffraff though, very effective but burdensome.
QuietShootr
05-27-10, 09:02
It might be a good idea for these selectees to have a thread lock button. If they get out of hand with the lock button, then let staff handle it, but there are a lot of stupid things that could be locked and trashed without having to bother someone else with it.
Pathfinder Ops
05-27-10, 12:05
It might be a good idea for these selectees to have a thread lock button. If they get out of hand with the lock button, then let staff handle it, but there are a lot of stupid things that could be locked and trashed without having to bother someone else with it.
The mentor concept has strength and allows for depth with the supervision of the site over all.
In a sense it fosters an informal leadership circumstance and recognizes the diversity of personalities, experience and intellect present among the regulars.
We already use this concept in the instructor arena in my state. We call it organizational span of control and essentially relies on the Instructor Coordinator having available a certain number of qualified adjuncts available based on student population. This concept expands the influence of the program and in many ways allows the primary player (instructor) to focus energy where the real issues are or to the development of the program overall.
If we combine this with a couple of the more level headed suggestions such as finding a minimum post count that works and removing the GD from the new posts tab we may well have a formula for success.
Keeping the GD for the obvious majority who enjoy it. Moderating it closer. And limiting the abuses within it. Throw in a few ground rules regarding issues that are commonly detestable and maybe the GD becomes a valuable area of interest for noobs and a crotchety old bastards as well.
Regarding the thread lock option if a Mentoring program was designed: Make it a circumstance (if technologically possible) where it would require at least 2 maybe even 3 of the "Mentor's agree before it can be locked for review by a formal Moderator. This would cause the "Mentors" to have to communicate back and forth as a review of a thread/ person and all (2 or 3) would have to click a lock button say within 6 hours of each other.
This approach would also cut down on the personality/ distaste for a topic by 1 Mentor making a definitive rule. It would force a consensus and then automatically make it something to be reviewed by the next level of the chain.
Maybe this is all to complicated. I don't know. I'm just trying to generate some ideas.
Thank you for voting. It is pretty clear that the majority of the members find some value in the GD and the mods/staff hate to manage it.
Look for some changes to happen soon.
I think I've already noted a trend towards more aggressive moderation of potentially problem threads by the moderators with them being locked portions of them being deleted and I have to say that I like it. Some threads are like car accidents and I find myself reading and sometimes posting in them when I should be spending time elsewhere. I like the firmer moderation.
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