View Full Version : Norgon ambi mag release=SUPER TIGHT?
I installed the Norgon ambi mag release onto my Spikes lower.
This thing is super hard to activate! I did 100 reps with it, still super hard to activate. Took it out sprayed down with some rem oil, same results. Tried back it out some, no go, tried backing it in some more, still super hard to activate. So right now its pretty much useless for me to use. Should note I'm a lefty and I sam using my strong hand index finger.
Any suggestions?
The lever is short, which requires more force to push it. Ambi mag releases like KAC's uses a longer lever and thus needs less effort.
Gutshot John
05-25-10, 21:13
It seems to me you've still got it too tight, back it out a turn or two more and see if that doesn't help.
It shouldn't be all that hard. Don't be afraid to keep backing it out a few more turns.
Can you see the threaded end of the catch poking out from the button on the right side? That would be a big clue that it's on way too tight.
I use the Norgon mag catch and have never experienced this problem. Back it out a few turns and try again.
The lever is short, which requires more force to push it. Ambi mag releases like KAC's uses a longer lever and thus needs less effort.
I was on the fence... and this is helping my leaning.
That being said, can you use a BAD type lever with a KAC Ambi Mag Release?
Army Chief
05-29-10, 08:05
KAC is turning out an excellent product, to be sure, but as a fellow southpaw I still consider the Norgon to be the industry standard.
Gutshot John is offering sound counsel here. I would reverify my configuration, and remove/reinstall if necessary, as a properly-installed Norgon should not be at all difficult to actuate.
AC
JeepDriver
05-29-10, 08:32
Both of mine are as easy to use as a standard catch.
As a lefty, I just finally ordered one of these from Brownells. Should be here next week.
With no experience with these safeties, here's my educated guess:
Is it rubbing on any part of your receiver? Does any metal area of the safety need to be deburred? Maybe some minor fitting is needed?
I've built-up about 30 or so lowers of different makers. I've found small variances in some of these receivers.
Basically, if it's not working well in one receiver, it might work great in another.
Good luck.
Well, after a couple of days and about 500 reps its working properly, might have been a burr, that along with letting the rem oil soak in, its seems good to go.
Thanks for the replies.
Well, after a couple of days and about 500 reps its working properly, might have been a burr, that along with letting the rem oil soak in, its seems good to go.
Thanks for the replies.
I hate to repeat this question, because it comes off as a bit rude.
But do you think you could fit a BAD or some other Bolt Catch operating device with the Ambi attached?
Could you take a picture of it with it laying down oriented directly above the receiver and it'll satisfy my question.
I appreciate it.
I want to say they will, but, I haven't looked at them enough to know.
Thanks in advance for any and all responses.
Paraclete comes
05-30-10, 02:48
have not tried to install both B.A.D and Ambi mag release at the same time but my radio operator told me he could not on his rifle.
have not tried to install both B.A.D and Ambi mag release at the same time but my radio operator told me he could not on his rifle.
Part of the reason I was asking is Troy Industries now has a Ambi-Mag Release and Ambi-Bolt Release (Bolt Release Lever) of their own.
It'd seem a little funny to me if they couldn't work in conjunction.
But then again, Norgon doesn't work with Troy, but their mag release is similar enough in design that it should have similar tolerances with Bolt Releases.
Thanks for the info.
http://store.troyind.com/category_s/152.htm
http://www.norgon.com/Home_files/AmbiCatch.htm (http://www.norgon.com/Home_files/AmbiCatch.htm)
The Norgon and B.A.D work fine together on my rifle. I thought there may be some problems as you have to reach over the B.A.D. lever to actuate the mag release. But it hasn't been an issue for me. When the bolt's locked back on an empty mag the B.A.D. lever lays pretty flush against the receiver and doesn't interfere. I also find the lever helpful with left hand manipulations. Catching the bolt, or dropping it with my right thumb during a magazine change. I'll post a couple pics once I've cleared my camera memory.
Bolt locked open:
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj68/bobfliege/Shooting%20stuff/lockedopen.jpg
Bolt closed:
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj68/bobfliege/Shooting%20stuff/Boltclosed.jpg
Hope that helps. :)
Robb Jensen
05-30-10, 11:58
The Norgon and the Magpul BAD don't work well if you're trying to use the Norgon on the left side. If you're using it like a normal right handed person it works fine. It's just reaching the Norgon with the Magpul BAD in the way is almost impossible. If you still want to use them both the Norgon must be installed be for installing the Magpul BAD.
It is more difficult to activate the mag release with the lever on. I haven't had trouble with it, but I haven't run it under ant stress situations either. I wonder if the Troy ambi mag release may work better once it's available. The release lever is situated further away from the bolt lever. But you'll still have to reach over it to press. Just another of those "you'll have to try it to see if it works for you." Things that makes our sport so costly I guess. If it doesn't there's always more room in that box of holsters and other spare parts we all have in the back of the closet.:rolleyes:
The Norgon and the Magpul BAD don't work well if you're trying to use the Norgon on the left side. If you're using it like a normal right handed person it works fine. It's just reaching the Norgon with the Magpul BAD in the way is almost impossible. If you still want to use them both the Norgon must be installed be for installing the Magpul BAD.
Just a Left eye dominant shooter looking to become as efficient as possible shooting left handed.
I think I'll try the ambi-dexterous magazine releases, and then go from there.
ETA: I left my web browser up and saw I hadn't posted this, I saw your photos, it does help, I appreciate it...
It'd definitely interfere with a KAC style Mag Release... I think all the levers would.
I really need to get out and shoot my gun a bit more, practice bolt releases from a shooting position without any kind of device, figure out what "I need".
I've done a little bit of stuff around the house, but nothing in implementation, reaching around the magazine well, and try shifting my firing grip to enable the bolt release with my middle/index finger...
I need to finish this gun and get out to the range ASAP...
ETA 2: By the way, does anybody have experience with a KAC Mag release? Is the positioning weird, because it's a bit back more towards the shooter?
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1098739
A google search revealed that and clearly demonstrates that you can't use a Bolt Release Lever with that mag release...
I'm wondering if the raised magazine release paddle on the Troy design if that wouldn't be more ideal for working with a Bolt Release Lever. (6th post in that thread below)
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=47517 (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=47517)
It definitely protrudes out a bit that it might help with reaching over the Bolt Release lever... Because realistically if you think about it, if you're going to run a lever (I'm on the fence), and you're left handed, you're going to have to Reach over that Bolt Release Lever to reach the aftermarket Ambi mag release of whatever choice you select... You'll want that mag release probably a bit more pronounced away from the receiver...
I think will only time/feedback will tell.
Thanks for any and all input and the input I've received.
Army Chief
05-30-10, 17:21
Given that the Norgon is primarily designed to benefit a left-handed firer, and the B.A.D. is primarily designed to benefit a right-handed firer, I'm not entirely sure when it would prove advantageous to configure a single weapon with both devices -- especially when we take into account that the presence of a B.A.D. makes it all-but-impossible to use a Norgon effectively.
I do follow the associated training argument for a RH shooter wishing to conduct off-side drills, but even if a B.A.D. were not installed, I'm still not sure that a Norgon would be the preferred solution for a right-side dominant shooter. There are other methods of dealing with magazine exchanges when the left-hand is fixed on fire control that would probably prove nearly as effective (and far less confusing) than trying to master a new piece of rather specialized hardware.
AC
As a lefty this may have been part of my issue. I have a BAD and then installed the Norgon. Its doable but not ideal because the BAD is so close to where you need to depress the Norgon.
Whenever the Troy ambi mag release comes out I'm going to try that, it looks like that might be the ticket for a lefty that wants the BAD and ambi mag release.
As a lefty this may have been part of my issue. I have a BAD and then installed the Norgon. Its doable but not ideal because the BAD is so close to where you need to depress the Norgon.
Yeah my experience is that the norgon is easier to actuate by pressing right at the tip.
What do you use the BAD for as a lefty? My left trigger finger seems to do everything the BAD does for a right handed shooter.
Army Chief
05-30-10, 18:17
I lay claim to no special expertise here, as my knowledge of the B.A.D. is more theoretical than practical; that said, I don't really understand what a left-handed firer would stand to gain from installation of the device.
I have seen various proposals to modify/shorten the lever to help accomodate some form of left-handed operation, but was generally left with the impression that this was something of a solution in search of a problem. Not so?
Don't want to put you on the spot, but I would be interested in what (as a left-handed firer) motivated you to invest in a B.A.D., and how has it proven beneficial.
AC
For me, I use it as a quicker way to send the bolt home, when doing a mag change. I have smedium hands and short fingers.
Prior to the bad , after inserting a fresh mag with the bolt to the rear, I would then bring my right hand up and use the charging handle to "slingshot" the bolt home to chamber the round.
Or I would have to shift my fire control hand (left) to use the bolt catch lever.
So now after inserting a fresh mag with right hand, the BAD is right there for me to depress sending the bolt home and chambering the round.
So my fire control hand (left) stays fixed, and I can get my support hand (right) back up on the rail to fire faster.
Thanks. Short fingers make sense.
Gutshot John
05-30-10, 21:11
For me, I use it as a quicker way to send the bolt home, when doing a mag change. I have smedium hands and short fingers.
Prior to the bad , after inserting a fresh mag with the bolt to the rear, I would then bring my right hand up and use the charging handle to "slingshot" the bolt home to chamber the round.
Or I would have to shift my fire control hand (left) to use the bolt catch lever.
So now after inserting a fresh mag with right hand, the BAD is right there for me to depress sending the bolt home and chambering the round.
So my fire control hand (left) stays fixed, and I can get my support hand (right) back up on the rail to fire faster.
I don't have the short fingered problem but I'd imagine it will only aggravate problems. How many rounds have you put through that configuration and in what setup?
Don't be surprised if, on bolt locked open, that you will drop the bolt when you try and press the ambi-catch. This of course will screw up an emergency reload.
I'd keep the Norgon and ditch the BAD. You've got way too many controls and the KISS principle applies.
Army Chief
05-30-10, 21:52
Actually, I can't even get quite that far, GJ ... I'm still trying to figure out the geometry of how the B.A.D. is even remotely compatible with routine portside activation.
AC
I use my right thumb to activate the bad after inserting mag.
I have been doing some drills with it at home, none on the range since I just put the Norgon on. Since its loosened up some no problems with inadvert bad hit.
Again I think the Troy one will work a little better, just waiting until they hit the market.
youtube has a pretty good video on the bad and left handed operation.
If you watch it you might understand to what I am referring to.
I just went to the Troy site, and that for sure will work better for me, it even shows it installed with a phase 5.
Check it out.
Army Chief
05-30-10, 22:36
Appreciate the clarification. I'm not sure how sound that might be as a general operating principle, but at least I can envision how you are physically manipulating it.
Taking the B.A.D. entirely out of the picture for a moment, your earlier remark about slingshotting the CH suggested that you have been working out some creative -- if nonstandard and potentially problematic -- solutions for bolt release activation for quite some time.
The most common accepted method for left-handed firers doesn't involve either a B.A.D. or the charging handle. Instead, it employs what you might call a "reach around" with the right hand wherein the front of the magazine well is cupped in the palm while the fingers extend around the upper receiver to engage the bolt release in its usual position on the left side. Even with shorter fingers, this should be a rapid and achievable means of bolt release. (The alternative approach is similar, but the right hand comes up from under the trigger group area to accomplish the same basic movement.)
AC
I fired my first AR when I went into the Marine Corps. We were taught to never use the standard bolt catch to drop the bolt, only to use it to lock it back. They had us always slingshot it with the charging handle.
So thats the way I've been doing for the past 21 years (man that makes me feel old!:D).
But as I said earlier, the bad gets me quicker back into a stable supported firing position in less movements.
Is this the video you were talking about?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyrC5mdY8og
Does a good job from 2:10 or so addressing some of the concerns.
As a lefty new to the AR world i find it easier for me to maintain my firing hand on the grip and hit the bolt release with my index finger. When operating the CH i reach over the top with my right hand and pull directly back and can use my firing hand index finger again to operate the bolt catch. An ambi mag release is definitely needed though.
Army Chief
05-30-10, 23:26
So thats the way I've been doing for the past 21 years.
I can certainly relate. After 26 years in the Army, one of the more interesting things that I've learned along the way is that much of what we were taught as recruits was inefficient, procedurally unsound and/or just plain wrong.
Granted, part of this has to do with the military's need to instruct to the lowest common denominator level for qualification purposes, rather than to achieve true proficiency. The other part is likely just reflective of the manner in which this weapon system (and our collective knowledge of it) has matured over time.
You can imagine all of the things that I had to un-learn, after having gotten my start as a young left-handed infantryman in the M-16A1 era. In those days, the only component that we had available to make life easier was the snap-in brass deflector, which of course we weren't actually permitted to use because it was considered a "crutch" that one wouldn't have in combat.
I don't pretend to be the final arbiter of truth, but I do have a semi-decent idea of what works (and what doesn't work) for me personally. If you're getting good results from an alternate approach, then perhaps you might wish to continue working the B.A.D. into your manual of arms. If it were me, however, I would stop at the Norgon, and see if perhaps the "reach around" didn't meet my needs as well or better. Whatever the case, I certainly wish you the best.
AC
Army Chief
05-30-10, 23:29
As a lefty new to the AR world i find it easier for me to maintain my firing hand on the grip and hit the bolt release with my index finger. When operating the CH i reach over the top with my right hand and pull directly back and can use my firing hand index finger again to operate the bolt catch. An ambi mag release is definitely needed though.
Many shooters, myself included, can't manage the index finger release quite this well. It's less a question of covering the distance than one of having the necessary power at full extension to hit the paddle without substantially changing the firing hand grip. If you can manage it, more power to you. For me, it's just not a consistent or efficient means of getting the job done when the bolt catch is under any kind of a load.
AC
Ive gotta practice it more to get it to muscle memory but if i think about it i can drop the bolt no problem with maybe a minimal shift in grip.
I've tried the reach around method (that doesnt sound right!:D).
But I just couldnt get used to it, I've missed the bolt catch a few times with gloves, or had to look down to find it. So I've just stuck with the USMC taught charging handle method, until the bad came out.
I've had a bad for awhile and for me it works. Once the Troy ambi mag comes out, , again for me, that will make my set up finalized.
Thanks for all the replies.
I think I've made my mind up for the time being I'm going to look for a good ambi mag release and then decide if I need a lever.
I really need to get out and just shoot the gun, I'm nearing completion to a functional level that I'd like.
Thanks for the input Army Chief.
When looking back, maybe I don't need it. This is my first AR, I've done boat loads of research, I spend a lot more reading and learning than writing typically, but I want to start it out simple and add parts gradually and add/remove stuff as I deem it necessary instead of going all out what I think "it" is.
I'd rather not modify the Bolt Release, and I'm also disheartened by .... it was either a LMT or Colt Bolt Release that was posted about in a thread here that snapped in half. I don't know what kind of stress they're creating on the component...
Realistically we'll have to wait and see what reports start filtering their way back as more and more people implement the product/theory.
Thanks for the input.
I'm getting the new Spikes billet lower, it has an ambi bolt release built in. So I wont need the bad, but will still be getting the Troy ambi mag release.:)
I'm getting the new Spikes billet lower, it has an ambi bolt release built in. So I wont need the bad, but will still be getting the Troy ambi mag release.:)
I'm on the fence on whether I'd go with a Troy or KAC, What I'd give to handle both. I'll tell ya on the KAC I don't care for the massive button that they replace the standard magazine release with on the ejection side of the weapon... Seems like one step forward and one step back, am I the only one that thinks that?
I can manipulate the bolt release with my middle finger on my left hand... I do have to break my firing grip though... Again, I'll mess with it until I find something I'm comfortable with.
That big button is why I'll go with the Troy.
The Norgon and B.A.D work fine together on my rifle.
No problems here either, I think GotM4/Robb Jensen summed it up nicely.
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%204/IMG_0374-A-1024-Stick.jpg
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%204/IMG_0398-A-1024-Stick.jpg
It looks to me that the ambi mag release would interfere with the bolt
release,when changing mags, is this so or just appears that way to me as I also shoot lefty, sure looks that way, I wouls like more info on this please, thanks.
Ron
It looks to me that the ambi mag release would interfere with the bolt
release,when changing mags, is this so or just appears that way to me as I also shoot lefty, sure looks that way, I wouls like more info on this please, thanks.
The Norgon Ambi mag release doesn't get in the way of the bolt release at all for my hands.
The magazine release is right at my trigger finger-tip, the button for locking open the bolt is just above the release, and the release itself is another half inch or so up from that, just at the very limit of how far I can reach without a major shift of my hand on the grip. People with shorter fingers might have to use the other hand if they want to keep left hand on fire control, those with longer fingers than mine can do it without shifting their hand at all. My hand shifts very slightly when I hit the release, just a bit to get more leverage.
I was just checkig that Norgon unit out, seems to be the one I will
be getting, but kinda spendy when you need 4 of them!!!
Ron
Being left handed myself, I personally don't like all that cluster running the BAD lever and the Norgon.
No first hand experience running both simultaneously but from pics I've seen, it just seems too little of space between the two.
I can see the the logic for a lefty running the bolt home with the thumb of his right hand after inserting a new mag using the BAD. But with the Norgon being so close it seems to me that it could be too easy missing the Norgon and screwing up a mag change especially when stressed and using gloves.
The placement of the Troy release button looks much better suited for someone wanting to run the BAD lever as well.
Personally, I'll stay away from the BAD.
I've always extended my firing hand fingers and hit the bolt release with my middle finger to slam the bolt home. My trigger finger is just a little to short to hit the bolt release.
Of coarse I have to regrip the rifles pistol grip after doing this but its just what my muscle memory is programed to do.
(I believe its called) the A-DAC ambi lower reciever stood out for me mostly do to its extended bolt release lever on the left side.
I would love to see someone come out with a replacement bolt release lever extended rearward like the one on the A-DAC to run on my DD lower.
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e364/Tango374/AX556-2.jpg
that A-DAC seems even better qnd easier to slap her the bolt home,
and I sure see the point if a hook was installed if possible, then use your finger to send it home, it seems we need more lefty engineers working on the controls !!
Ron
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