View Full Version : Alternatives to Glock 19 for CCW?
After the one day of FoF I did last week where a lot of guys ended up getting “shot” in their gun hand and/or arm & the more I work on weapon manipulations (specifically support hand only), the more I'm finding that I probably want a more ambi-friendly gun and something with a grip that my girl hands can drop a mag without breaking my master grip. I could and am trying to learn to work around these shortcomings but then I think to myself, why should I have to? Also I’d like something slightly smaller than the G19 for concealment that I can still get a full handed grip on. It’s not bad, but it prints a little bit more than I’d like it to. Perhaps I should have spent more time considering other platforms before buying earlier this year but I didn’t know what I didn’t know at the time.
I’m not overly concerned about capacity (10 rounds is fine), but a shorter reach to the trigger, an ambidextrous or at least switchable mag release is desirable as well as an ambi slide release. Also a magazine compatible larger framed/longer slide companion is desirable as well for use as a light equipped nightstand gun. The obvious choices are M&P Compact and the P2000SK both being a bit shorter in height than the 19 but not “2 finger” grips like the 26. I definitely prefer something with consistent trigger pulls vs DS/SA but I’ll leave the option on the table. Anyone have other quality suggestions that they have experience with? There’s potential for me to buy two compacts/subcompacts (me +GF for carry if she likes it) and a fullsize gun (aforementioned nightstand gun). I’d love to say that, money isn’t an issue but I’d be lying, ultimately I’ll end up with the best option so long as I don’t end up buying 3 $1K+ pistols. I’m not above buying used either…
I have 2 M&Ps and I feel that the mag release is alot easier to operate compared to my 19. Also you might want to consider a Walther P99/c as the trigger guard mag release is easy with both hands and a better design than H&Ks IMO.
The P2000 (and P30) is a true ambi option. LEM gives consistent trigger pull and any future HK pistol I buy will be an LEM model.
The M&P won't give you the ambi mag release, you have to pick what side you want it on and live with that.
For what it's worth, there are lefties who are proficient with Glocks, personally I think a longer-than-stock mag release (read: Vickers) and a rack-it-on-whatever rear sight would go a long way to improving the feasibility of what you currently have.
From personal experience, I've been on the pistol merry-go-round several times between the pistols being discussed here (and others), and it's very easy to piss away a ton of cash for little gain. Put a lot of thought into it before you unload what is a great gun. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you; just be sure.
My M&P fullsize isn't that much larger than my Glock 19. It's somewhere between the 19 and 17 size-wise, and conceal about the same. I find the M&P compacts too small for my liking. In either case, those are currently my two go-to guns.
A P30 with the LEM would be another option to explore. I my opinion, the 9mm Glocks, M&Ps, and P30 are the best handguns on the market.
Another possibility you may not have thought of is doing a grip reduction on the G19 you currently own. Boresight Solutions has an excellent reputation for these types of modifications and might just save you a bit of $ in the process. You may want to take a look at the G26 to supplement your 19 for concealed carry since you mentioned the 19 was a bit large for your tastes. There is some parts carry over between the 2 and you can use the 19 mags in the 26 if you so choose for additional capacity.
Outside of that I'd recommend the compact M&P in 9mm.
The P2000 (and P30) is a true ambi option. LEM gives consistent trigger pull and any future HK pistol I buy will be an LEM model.
The M&P won't give you the ambi mag release, you have to pick what side you want it on and live with that.
For what it's worth, there are lefties who are proficient with Glocks, personally I think a longer-than-stock mag release (read: Vickers) and a rack-it-on-whatever rear sight would go a long way to improving the feasibility of what you currently have.
From personal experience, I've been on the pistol merry-go-round several times between the pistols being discussed here (and others), and it's very easy to piss away a ton of cash for little gain. Put a lot of thought into it before you unload what is a great gun. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you; just be sure.
I actually already have the Vicker's release already and Warren Tactical sights. I still have problems breaking my grip even with my weapon hand. I' 5'6" 155Lbs, and my hands are proportionate... like I said girl hands.
I hear you though, I haven't made a decision to dump the Glock as my issues with it aren't unworkable. But I am exploring the other options out there that might work better, even incrementally. If worst come to worst, there shouldn't be a problem picking up another G19.
Littlelebowski
05-26-10, 11:28
4th Gen G19, M&P 9, or HK P30. Thread's done :D
glockshooter
05-26-10, 11:40
If you have smaller hands then you will have a hard time finding any handgun that you can maintain your master grip. I suffer from the same problem you have. In my experience the HK style mag release when operated with the middle finger of your firing hand allows for master grip to be maintained the most. The P2000 is one of the few guns that come to mind that have true ambi operations. I would also suggest going with the P2000 not the SK. The SK is to small even for my hands. Just for informational purposes I have been carrying a P2000 V2 for about 4 years. It has been a great carry weapon.
Matt
4th Gen G19, M&P 9, or HK P30. Thread's done :D
What LL said...you can close it now. ;)
After the one day of FoF I did last week where a lot of guys ended up getting “shot” in their gun hand and/or arm
This is great. Larry Vickers posted in the GEN 4 Glock thread about being concerned with limp wristing. Specifically that since people tend to get shot in their dominant hand and arm that their grip strength won't be there and the gun will malfunction at the worst time.
Thanks for bringing this up and making people realize that in a gun fight, there is a good chance of them getting shot in the hand and arm.
The more I work on weapon manipulations (specifically support hand only), the more I'm finding that I probably want a more ambi-friendly gun and something with a grip that my girl hands can drop a mag without breaking my master grip. I could and am trying to learn to work around these shortcomings but then I think to myself, why should I have to? Also I’d like something slightly smaller than the G19 for concealment that I can still get a full handed grip on. It’s not bad, but it prints a little bit more than I’d like it to. Perhaps I should have spent more time considering other platforms before buying earlier this year but I didn’t know what I didn’t know at the time.
I’m not overly concerned about capacity (10 rounds is fine), but a shorter reach to the trigger, an ambidextrous or at least switchable mag release is desirable as well as an ambi slide release. Also a magazine compatible larger framed/longer slide companion is desirable as well for use as a light equipped nightstand gun. The obvious choices are M&P Compact and the P2000SK both being a bit shorter in height than the 19 but not “2 finger” grips like the 26. I definitely prefer something with consistent trigger pulls vs DS/SA but I’ll leave the option on the table. Anyone have other quality suggestions that they have experience with? There’s potential for me to buy two compacts/subcompacts (me +GF for carry if she likes it) and a fullsize gun (aforementioned nightstand gun). I’d love to say that, money isn’t an issue but I’d be lying, ultimately I’ll end up with the best option so long as I don’t end up buying 3 $1K+ pistols. I’m not above buying used either…
First let me say that the GEN 3 G19 is one of the best CCW guns ever made. If you like Glock's, you might want to wait and see how the GEN 4 G19's work for you.
With that said, I think the M&P Compact is a good gun to try.
Recently, I was test firing JW777's M&P compact. I wanted more rounds in the gun than 12 so I took some FS 17rd mags. They of course stick way out and look goofy. One thing I noticed though is that the leverage I could get on the gun with those mags was fantastic and I shot that little gun very fast and very well. Almost to the point that I think I can shoot it faster and better than my full size M&P. :eek:
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jasonhgross
05-26-10, 12:23
Ummm, this begs the question, why dont you just slightly break your grip. I frequently switch my grip slightly to hit the mag release, and its never been a problem even in very dynamic drills and scenario based training. If you go to another weapon its not just another gun, its more holsters, possible reliability issues, and a host of other things that add to the learning curve. Many small handed people shoot the 19 and adapt around it. I utilize the system that imposes the fewest number of issues that I have to work around to make that system work for me; and even with my own girl hands, its the 19. Is it possible that you are just looking for justification for a new and cool weapon (we have all done it). Why trade the devil you know...
How are all of us posting in the middle of the day? I'm at home on conference calls all day.
How are all of us posting in the middle of the day? I'm at home on conference calls all day.
We are all unemployed/boss is out of the office. :D
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GermanSynergy
05-26-10, 12:27
Give the M&P 9 C with Apex DCAEK a try. :cool:
Littlelebowski
05-26-10, 12:37
This is great. Larry Vickers posted in the GEN 4 Glock thread about being concerned with limp wristing.
I physically tried to do this and even shot video of it with my free hand and posted it on here. The Gen4 G17 kept on running. Bear in mind that I do have extensive permanent damage in my strong side hand/arm as well from a GSW.
Littlelebowski
05-26-10, 12:37
How are all of us posting in the middle of the day? I'm at home on conference calls all day.
I work on computers for a living.
I physically tried to do this and even shot video of it with my free hand and posted it on here. The Gen4 G17 kept on running. Bear in mind that I do have extensive permanent damage in my strong side hand/arm as well from a GSW.
I tried to limp wrist mine as well and couldn't make it happen.
I physically tried to do this and even shot video of it with my free hand and posted it on here. The Gen4 G17 kept on running. Bear in mind that I do have extensive permanent damage in my strong side hand/arm as well from a GSW.
Understand. Everyone is different though. Hand strenght, angle in which you hold it, etc play a big part in it.
This was posted by a Staff member:
My Glock 17 Gen 4, 1K rounds fired, two stoppages with Win. 9mm NATO locked open with rounds still in the mag both times in the first 650 rounds. Pretty certain it was my weak hand coming loose during recoil since I was getting tired at the end of the range session (happens when I shoot 650 rounds in 1.5hrs and 450 of that was +P or more powerful).
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Littlelebowski
05-26-10, 12:46
Yup but I sure tried to limp wrist it and couldn't do it. I have small to medium sized hands. As you know, there will always be one negative story that could be blown out of proportion.
Yup but I sure tried to limp wrist it and couldn't do it. I have small to medium sized hands. As you know, there will always be one negative story that could be blown out of proportion.
I honestly don't think it has anthing to do with grip strength. I think it has a lot more to do with the angle in which you hold the gun.
Glock's have always had a known problem with limp wristing and that is why LAV believes that it will be even more prevelant in the GEN 4's (as they have a much stiffer spring). I imagine though, that the problem will only show itself to certain people at certain times. Kind of like the G22 with a metal light mounted on it. Some saw it and some did not, but it was a known problem. So much so, that Glock came out with the GEN 4's just to deal with it.
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Littlelebowski
05-26-10, 12:55
I honestly don't think it's a verified problem with the Gen4s.
I honestly don't think it's a verified problem with the Gen4s.
Well it IS a verified problem in GEN 3's and we have seen post about it on here already (to include an experienced Staff member). So I think the problem exists. The question is, how bad is it and how bad will it become?
When Glock changes out the recoil springs soon, I think the odds of it happening will drop a lot.
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Littlelebowski
05-26-10, 13:03
Aye, it is on Gen3s. To prophesize on the new guns is a premature in my book but I'm not an experienced staff member.
Aye, it is on Gen3s. To prophesize on the new guns is a premature in my book but I'm not an experienced staff member.
No, we are seeing it on GEN 4 17's.
So no "prophesizing" on my part.
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Littlelebowski
05-26-10, 13:22
No, we are seeing it on GEN 4 17's.
So no "prophesizing" on my part.
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Yes, "we" have heard about it happening in a staff member's gun and "we" are also blatantly ignoring LittleLebowski's and HK45's firsthand report. I don't see why I bother posting any firsthand experience when all you do is blatantly cherry pick statements that support your own perception, Grant. I wasn't surprised when you ignored the limp wristing video I posted either since it does not support your own statements based on other's knowledge. So much for facts only and a lack of bias oriented forum.
John_Wayne777
05-26-10, 13:28
Oh boy....
If possible it would be nice if we could avoid another Glock dustup.
Littlelebowski
05-26-10, 13:31
Will dial it back a notch, JW777. More actual usage data is needed on these new Glocks. Right now we have two owners saying they tried to make the weapon limp wrist and one staff member who had problems. Inconclusive at the least for a revamped design.
Oh boy....
If possible it would be nice if we could avoid another Glock dustup.
Yeah I don't have time for that. It will interfere with the 9mm vs 45 thread I was planning on starting.
Thanks for bringing this up and making people realize that in a gun fight, there is a good chance of them getting shot in the hand and arm.
There is also a good chance you may have to shoot through a hand or arm and it's why defensive ammo needs to meet a minimum of 12" penetration.
Yes, "we" have heard about it happening in a staff member's gun and "we" are also blatantly ignoring LittleLebowski's and HK45's firsthand report. I don't see why I bother posting any firsthand experience when all you do is blatantly cherry pick statements that support your own perception, Grant. I wasn't surprised when you ignored the limp wristing video I posted either since it does not support your own statements based on other's knowledge. So much for facts only and a lack of bias oriented forum.
Its kind of like the G22 and metal light issues. People ignored that forever and said it wasn't a problem their guns never had an issue.
If it wasn't a problem we would hear ZERO reports and Glock wouldn't be putting new guide rods springs in the GEN G17's.
I did not ignore your video. I am fairly certain that you cannot get your gun to malfunction. That doesn't mean that other people don't have a problem.
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Littlelebowski
05-26-10, 13:43
I think no matter what, on any gun, we'll never hear ZERO reports of problems.
Will dial it back a notch, JW777. More actual usage data is needed on these new Glocks. Right now we have two owners saying they tried to make the weapon limp wrist and one staff member who had problems. Inconclusive at the least for a revamped design.
We do need more data (agree). There are more than "two owners" stating that their GEN 4 Glock malfunctioned because of limp wristing/guide rod issues. You also have two of the foremost experts on Glock's stating that they believe that that are problems going on.
As I said, if there was NO issue, you would see zero problems and Glock wouldn't be coming out with a new guide rod.
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Right. Nothing to do with grip strength. Many people do not lock their wrists when shooting Glocks or anything else. I could not make either of my Gen 4's malfunction no matter what kind of limp wristing I tried. I have had zero malfs with over 5k rounds in each. Doesn't mean I don't believe others did or do have issues. But gun owners are rightfully conservative regarding changes to their weapons and I think new and different is not well received by a lot of people. Hence the posts in various threads from people who do not own these pistols saying the changes should be causing issues they have no personal experience of.
I had no idea I would like these pistols as much as I do. I bought one at Retired Jarhead price out of curiosity and figured it would be 50/50 at best that I would even keep it. But now I am hard pressed to think of anything I have liked better in 30+years of issued/owned pistols.
I honestly don't think it has anthing to do with grip strength. I think it has a lot more to do with the angle in which you hold the gun.
I think no matter what, on any gun, we'll never hear ZERO reports of problems.
This is true. All guns have problems, but that's not what we are talking about here.
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Jay Cunningham
05-26-10, 14:30
More M&P vs. Glock B.S. This is the kind of thing that we are trying to avoid on M4C.
The OP received several good answers to his question. This topic is done (to death)...
Right. Nothing to do with grip strength. Many people do not lock their wrists when shooting Glocks or anything else. I could not make either of my Gen 4's malfunction no matter what kind of limp wristing I tried. I have had zero malfs with over 5k rounds in each. Doesn't mean I don't believe others did or do have issues. But gun owners are rightfully conservative regarding changes to their weapons and I think new and different is not well received by a lot of people. Hence the posts in various threads from people who do not own these pistols saying the changes should be causing issues they have no personal experience of.
I had no idea I would like these pistols as much as I do. I bought one at Retired Jarhead price out of curiosity and figured it would be 50/50 at best that I would even keep it. But now I am hard pressed to think of anything I have liked better in 30+years of issued/owned pistols.
And I believe you when you say that your gun runs fine (as you have no reason to lie about it).
Its kind of like people telling me that my M&P 9mm has extraction and firing pin issues. The only problem is, mine doesn't. I am also smart enough to know that it actually IS a problem and that my gun is a statistical sampling of ONE.
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