View Full Version : State of the Art Shooting Facilities (Germany)
I cannot imagine what it costs to shoot here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyq90LEZe4k
thopkins22
05-26-10, 13:30
I want an American version with ARs...but nonetheless that truly puts to shame just about anything I've seen.:eek:
Belmont31R
05-26-10, 13:36
Every shooting range Ive been to in Europe has been really nice. Not "that" nice as in the video but a lot nicer to anything Ive been to in the states.
That looks awesome! Hmmm...
It is in Ulm, btw.
One of these years I plan on taking the family to Germany on a trip. I will make a point to stop there! I lived in Germany twice, mostly in the south (everywhere between the Rhine and lower Bavaria and up to Wuerzburg area), which is where Ulm is, in the south, and have a lot of friends and acquaintances. I used to go every few years or so until I got married. Now all our trip are to Japan to visit the MIL and SILs. When the kids get a bit older and I can afford it we will hit up Germany again to visit friends etc. And this place.
They had some "action pistol" type shooting in the video...
ForTehNguyen
05-26-10, 13:43
http://www.mszu.de/
Drei hundert meter? Sehr gut. Auf geht's!
kaiservontexas
05-26-10, 13:56
I wish we had that here because I think we would appreciate it more to be honest. There shop makes our stores look like a ghetto flea market.
Blinking Dog
05-26-10, 13:57
Someone needs to send this to the folks who run Cabelas.
I especially liked the pig shooting on the video screen, with an AAR that shows your shot placement. Very nice.
Reminds me a lot of SGC and the one they built in DC except that they have trap, skeet etc at the one in Germany.
I bet something like that would do well in my area... Looks like a very expensive project though. Its like a country club for shooters... I like it!
It ain't cheap... Looking at the price list on the website.
I was glancing through their rules:
They do not allow reloaded ammo, yet they offer seminars on reloading according to the video.
I am going to have to read the rules more thoroughly when and if I ever get over that direction to see if mere foreigners can rent and shoot (ie, what sort of permits and stuff you have to show). They do seem to have rental firearms available.
Due to the legal climate there, they don't seem to have a strong self defense and "social" work mindset to shooting, but do have a very strong and rich hunting and target shooting tradition. This caters to that.
I am very impressed....makes my range look like I'm shooting at the dump...
Belmont31R
05-26-10, 14:29
It ain't cheap... Looking at the price list on the website.
I was glancing through their rules:
They do not allow reloaded ammo, yet they offer seminars on reloading according to the video.
I am going to have to read the rules more thoroughly when and if I ever get over that direction to see if mere foreigners can rent and shoot (ie, what sort of permits and stuff you have to show). They do seem to have rental firearms available.
Due to the legal climate there, they don't seem to have a strong self defense and "social" work mindset to shooting, but do have a very strong and rich hunting and target shooting tradition. This caters to that.
My post (Wiesbaden AAF) shared a range with the German mil, and LE.
Their LE seem to stacked deep with guns, and their MIL had some nice stuff. One of their mil snipers had a 300WM AI with a Hensoldt. Whatever their version of the FBI is those guys would show up in some nice car, and with a trunk full of weapons. One of my buddies actually married a girl in the Polizei, and she was "trying out" for their FBI.
They also had range trips (mostly for clay pigeon) through our MWR, and I knew a couple people. One guy lived in Austria, and was big into guns. The other was a female German exchange student who went to my HS, and then I met up with her when I got stationed there. Went to her house for my first Christmas in Germany.
Also after HS I was planning on going to a school in Ferlach, Austria for their gunsmithing school. Didn't work out but had a lot of fun in that area. Ferlach is basically the gunsmithing capital of Austria.. Me and my buddy went over there for 2 months the day after we graduated HS with just a rail pass, and our packs. Overall I gotta say Europeans are the MOST hospitable people Ive ever run into (except for the french who I couldnt care less about). Lots of stories from that trip...;)
Germany is very restrictive when it comes to firearms. I read some other comments that mentioned something about having to be a member and you must have a hunting permit or a "waffenschein" weapons license.
They seem to require that you have insurance. They can sell you a "day insurance" if you are not insured through your hunting club or due to having a hunting license (which I guess by law also requires you to have insurance).
Germany is very restrictive when it comes to firearms. I read some other comments that mentioned something about having to be a member and you must have a hunting permit or a "waffenschein" weapons license.
Compared to us (most parts of the US) they are very restrictive. Compared to some other countries in Europe, not so bad I take it. I was once (like 10 or 12 years ago) walking along a street in Stuttgart and ran into a gun/hunting store and went in and talked with them for a bit. It was very interesting. They were all jealous of the US freedoms of arms that most states enjoy but they seemed to be able to do a lot with firearms compared to some places. I believe you are right -- you have to belong to a club and have a weapons permit etc.
Yet if you look at German gunstore websites, they have ARs available (with some minor modifications) and in the video for this place you see a guy shooting some sort of IPSC style handgun shooting with a 1911 type gun.
OMFG! That's Sehr Uber Badass!
I'm mad.. I think they stole my idea. I couldn't tell, because they never really had any good video angles of them.
But my idea for a range was to post video cameras down by fixed distance targets. IE 100M, 200M, 300M.. etc.. and then have LCD or Plasma screens at the shooting stands showing your targets.
It is kind of my way to eliminate the spotting scopes. In order to actually see your hits out to 4-500M you would have to spend a crap load of money. With the video camera idea you wouldn't even need a spotting scope. You could see your hits on the monitor right in front of you.
I lived there for 8 years and to me the laws were ridiculous. I believe that a hunting permit (Jagdschein) costs well over 5K.
Compared to us (most parts of the US) they are very restrictive. Compared to some other countries in Europe, not so bad I take it. I was once (like 10 or 12 years ago) walking along a street in Stuttgart and ran into a gun/hunting store and went in and talked with them for a bit. It was very interesting. They were all jealous of the US freedoms of arms that most states enjoy but they seemed to be able to do a lot with firearms compared to some places. I believe you are right -- you have to belong to a club and have a weapons permit etc.
Yet if you look at German gunstore websites, they have ARs available (with some minor modifications) and in the video for this place you see a guy shooting some sort of IPSC style handgun shooting with a 1911 type gun.
I lived there for 8 years and to me the laws were ridiculous.
I agree. To me they are ridiculous too.
The laws in other places are worse. There are a lot of shooters in Germany.
I believe that a hunting permit (Jagdschein) costs well over 5K.
I will ask one of my customers in Germany who buys a lot of reloading stuff what it is like now.
rickrock305
05-26-10, 16:39
WOW!
First time I've ever seen indoor skeet/trap shooting.
Wow, that's one hell of a facility. I was impressed with the new range that opened near my place (Bellevue Gun Club), but this German range makes everything else look like a dump.
now thats a different environment! I'm used to smelling like myself, being sunburned, and adjusting for windage!
Army Chief
05-26-10, 20:25
I will ask one of my customers in Germany who buys a lot of reloading stuff what it is like now.
Having just spent the better part of a decade in Germany, I can assure you that the process of earning a Jagdschein remains an extremely complex, difficult and expensive process.
I was able to go through an abbreviated course as a US military officer, but it still took several months to complete, and the testing (three challenging shooting events, a comprehensive written exam and an all-business oral panel) is the most rigorous I've seen anywhere.
German hunters do hold a high place in society, of course, and qualification is merely the first step. The traditions and responsibilties of the German Jaeger demand a lifelong commitment, which is why this tends to be a much smaller and more tightly-knit community than anything you will ever see in the US.
Waidmannsheil!
AC
That's a very nice range and I hope we never have ranges like that in the U.S. like a lot of other members have already stated the reason the range is so nice is because there is nowhere else to shoot. I guarantee when the see youtube vidoes of guy's in the U.S. out in the middle of nowhere shooting without someone looking over our shoulder and monitoring our every move they're the jealous one's! Give me a dusty dirty homemade range or some targets that I placed out in the woods any day of the week. IMO!
Having just spent the better part of a decade in Germany, I can assure you that the process of earning a Jagdschein remains an extremely complex, difficult and expensive process.
I was able to go through an abbreviated course as a US military officer, but it still took several months to complete, and the testing (three challenging shooting events, a comprehensive written exam and an all-business oral panel) is the most rigorous I've seen anywhere.
German hunters do hold a high place in society, of course, and qualification is merely the first step. The traditions and responsibilties of the German Jaeger demand a lifelong commitment, which is why this tends to be a much smaller and more tightly-knit community than anything you will ever see in the US.
Waidmannsheil!
AC
Sie auch? Waidmannsheil!
The social aspect of the Jagdverein (hunting club) is not to be understated. As onerous as the restrictions are, it is a very interesting process.
Having just spent the better part of a decade in Germany, I can assure you that the process of earning a Jagdschein remains an extremely complex, difficult and expensive process.
I was able to go through an abbreviated course as a US military officer, but it still took several months to complete, and the testing (three challenging shooting events, a comprehensive written exam and an all-business oral panel) is the most rigorous I've seen anywhere.
German hunters do hold a high place in society, of course, and qualification is merely the first step. The traditions and responsibilties of the German Jaeger demand a lifelong commitment, which is why this tends to be a much smaller and more tightly-knit community than anything you will ever see in the US.
Waidmannsheil!
AC
But I don't believe that Jagdvereinmitglieder (members of the hunting clubs) are the only ones who can get weapons permits.
Having just spent the better part of a decade in Germany, I can assure you that the process of earning a Jagdschein remains an extremely complex, difficult and expensive process.
I was able to go through an abbreviated course as a US military officer, but it still took several months to complete, and the testing (three challenging shooting events, a comprehensive written exam and an all-business oral panel) is the most rigorous I've seen anywhere.
German hunters do hold a high place in society, of course, and qualification is merely the first step. The traditions and responsibilties of the German Jaeger demand a lifelong commitment, which is why this tends to be a much smaller and more tightly-knit community than anything you will ever see in the US.
Waidmannsheil!
AC
I'd be interested in hearing more detail about the process. Please, post as able.
Army Chief
05-27-10, 07:17
But I don't believe that Jagdvereinmitglieder (members of the hunting clubs) are the only ones who can get weapons permits.
True statement; in fact, most weapons cards (Waffensbesitztkarte) are not issued to hunters, but to sport shooters. The difference between the two classes (hunter vs. sport shooter) has mostly to do with the restrictions imposed on types and numbers of weapons -- and associated ammuntion.
A sport shooter must be active in competition (using club weapons) for a year or so before he will have the necessary documentation to even apply for a permit; after that, the limitations imposed have mostly to do with numbers of weapons and calibers. For example, I think the restriction is (or was) one major caliber and one minor caliber pistol or somesuch, and longarms are similarly controlled.
A hunter can own two major caliber handguns (coup de grace weapons), and an unlimited number of longarms, and it is this greater freedom that tends to result in hunters simply having more guns, and more types of guns, than the typical sport shooter.
Having participated in both sport shooting and hunting in Germany, I would say that there is no real comparison, and if one is able to qualify to become a hunter, then this tends to render most other points moot. That is just a very hard (and costly) thing for the average German to accomplish, hence the active sport shooting population.
AC
^^^**** that, that's bullshit. Makes the USA seem like a nice place to live lol :D
Army Chief
05-27-10, 15:19
^^^**** that, that's bullshit. Makes the USA seem like a nice place to live lol :D
No contest, but the feeling of "personal freedom" is a relative thing, and in some important respects, Germany feels like a much more permissive environment.
Given that most of us drive a car a lot more than we get to shoot a gun, consider the freedom of blowing past a Police cruiser on the interstate(Autobahn) at whatever speed you like -- and I'm not talking about 90 mph; I'm talking about deep into the triple digits.
Not to be ridiculous about it, but that was a near-daily reality while I was there, and as you might imagine, it felt pretty darned liberating.
AC
No contest, but the feeling of "personal freedom" is a relative thing, and in some important respects, Germany feels like a much more permissive environment.
Given that most of us drive a car a lot more than we get to shoot a gun, consider the freedom of blowing past a Police cruiser on the interstate(Autobahn) at whatever speed you like -- and I'm not talking about 90 mph; I'm talking about deep into the triple digits.
Not to be ridiculous about it, but that was a near-daily reality while I was there, and as you might imagine, it felt pretty darned liberating.
AC
I bet that was badass! But, if we could somehow have both! :cool:
Army Chief
05-27-10, 17:24
I'd be interested in hearing more detail about the process. Please, post as able.
I've likely pulled this thread a bit too far off topic, already, but I'll give it a rest, and try to come back and fill in some of the blanks later on.
AC
No contest, but the feeling of "personal freedom" is a relative thing, and in some important respects, Germany feels like a much more permissive environment.
Given that most of us drive a car a lot more than we get to shoot a gun, consider the freedom of blowing past a Police cruiser on the interstate(Autobahn) at whatever speed you like -- and I'm not talking about 90 mph; I'm talking about deep into the triple digits.
Not to be ridiculous about it, but that was a near-daily reality while I was there, and as you might imagine, it felt pretty darned liberating.
AC
could i include doing a corn holio impression(while walking past the glockenspeil) after a few hours at the hofbrauhaus and NOT get a public intoxication charge count for permissive, too?:D
Belmont31R
05-27-10, 22:12
That is true about it being a tradeoff.
I think of Europe as being "socially liberating" yet "rights restrictive". In the US we are "socially restrictive" yet "rights galore". For instance they are big into "fests", and drinking in public walking down the street is normal there. Here try walking down the street with a beer in your hand, and you'll get a public intox ticket. You'd go to clubs, and there would be girls 13 and 14 years old there drinking. In almost 4 years there I never ONCE saw anyone carded for alcohol. Here Im 26, and get carded left and right yet I can go down to the gunstore, and buy pretty much anything I want. In Germany, outside of the cities, you can go 180MPH if you have the space, and the right vehicle. Here that would land you in jail, vehicle impounded, loss of license, etc. Here you get a ticket for going 75 in a 70, and there you'd be barely keeping up with the pace of the slow lane.
Then there are the nude beaches which outside of the touristy areas is more the norm than the exception. Its "mature" enough you don't get a group of dipshit males oogling a topless girl where here people would be crashing cars onto the beach if there were a group of 20 somethings walking around nude.
Army Chief
05-27-10, 22:14
Uh, I'm fairly certain that acting like an idiot while under the influence is just as bad an idea there as it is here; probably worse, since the Polizei won't hesitate to throttle you first, and ask questions later.
We now return you to your OP's topic (shooting ranges in Germany) ... already in progess.
AC
Army Chief
05-27-10, 22:18
I think of Europe as being "socially liberating" yet "rights restrictive". In the US we are "socially restrictive" yet "rights galore.
A most insightful -- and, I think, entirely on point -- observation.
AC
Back to the facility.
I GUARAN-FREAKING-TEE you that a) there is a world class bar within a few steps of every firing range, and b) nowhere in that facility has the words "guns and alcohol don't mix" EVER been uttered.
All the German ranges I've ever been to are combination shooting/drinking affairs. In fact, I don't think it's possible for Germans to shoot without drinking before, during and after.
I've seen a German 3P shooter go 598 while sucking down beers.
The newest thing, which is really driving down the price of older Drillings and traditional rifles, is the onerous requirements on weapons storage. They now specify the weights and types of safes you can store them in, at home and while driving to your shooting location. A lot of the older jaegers and shooters are getting rid of their gear.
Given that most of us drive a car a lot more than we get to shoot a gun, consider the freedom of blowing past a Police cruiser on the interstate(Autobahn) at whatever speed you like -- and I'm not talking about 90 mph; I'm talking about deep into the triple digits.
Not to be ridiculous about it, but that was a near-daily reality while I was there, and as you might imagine, it felt pretty darned liberating.
AC
There is truth to this. The 18 months I lived 50 miles outside of Munich and commuted in to my job (computer company) I never once had my blood pressure go up due to driving. There was not this fear of "where is the cop hiding" and you could concentrate on driving. I never had a car that could go more than about 105 mph that I owned and all the times I have been there only once did I have a rental that could do 130-135 (4 banger Mercedes C180 -- felt like you were doing 65 though when it was maxed out). But I never felt uptight worrying about getting pulled over. It is a somewhat liberating feeling. (And I actually did get pulled over once on the Autobahn, but not for speeding -- my license plate was dirty from the road grim and being spring the wet weather making the road grime come up in wheel spray)
(I was there as a civilian, not with .gov or .mil.)
But the cost to keep a car registered and the rules and regulations on what you can add to the car are ridiculous (every add on piece has to be type certified by the TüV -- their technical overseers -- including one off custom pieces). The same most of us feel about the firearms laws as they have been explained. Germany is based on Continental Law, which can be summed up as "if it is not allowed, it is forbidden" versus English Common Law (which most of the US is based on), which is based on the notion of "if it is not forbidden, it is allowed".
Even the firearms laws as AC laid them out is one of everything is forbidden except what is allowed. MOST places in the US lay out laws on what is forbidden, and everything else is allowed.
This shooting facility in the base .0 of this thread kind of bears out what AC was saying, if you read between the lines. Since it is hard and expensive to be allowed to own a gun in Germany, it is more a country club and upper middle class and upper class "sport." The facility is nice and state of the art. But kind of indicative of the state of shooting in Germany I would guess.
That is true about it being a tradeoff.
I think of Europe as being "socially liberating" yet "rights restrictive". In the US we are "socially restrictive" yet "rights galore". For instance they are big into "fests", and drinking in public walking down the street is normal there. Here try walking down the street with a beer in your hand, and you'll get a public intox ticket. You'd go to clubs, and there would be girls 13 and 14 years old there drinking. In almost 4 years there I never ONCE saw anyone carded for alcohol. Here Im 26, and get carded left and right yet I can go down to the gunstore, and buy pretty much anything I want. In Germany, outside of the cities, you can go 180MPH if you have the space, and the right vehicle. Here that would land you in jail, vehicle impounded, loss of license, etc. Here you get a ticket for going 75 in a 70, and there you'd be barely keeping up with the pace of the slow lane.
Then there are the nude beaches which outside of the touristy areas is more the norm than the exception. Its "mature" enough you don't get a group of dipshit males oogling a topless girl where here people would be crashing cars onto the beach if there were a group of 20 somethings walking around nude.
Having never been to Germany, your post is informative and thought provoking. I contemplate about the combination of social liberation and fundamental rights often. I believe that the two naturally go hand in hand.
With that said, I'd take our gun rights and shitty ranges over their gun rights and their state of the art any day.
Army Chief
05-31-10, 20:00
I'd be interested in hearing more detail about the process. Please, post as able.
It looks like the thread has run its course, so as promised, I don't mind revisiting it for a few minutes and shedding a bit more light on the subject of hunting in Germany.
One of the best English-language sources of information I've ever encountered is this article originally published in 2003 for Montana Outdoors (http://fwp.mt.gov/mtoutdoors/HTML/articles/2003/HuntingGermany.htm). Although it doesn't go into too much detail about the testing process, it does provide a number of insights into the hunting culture in Germany.
AC
Just watched the video.
Frau Quib walks by, looks over my shoulder and says….“Gibt es jetzt Gander Mountain in Deutschland?” LOL......:)
I cannot imagine what it costs to shoot here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyq90LEZe4k100,00 € = about $123
Prices
25 m indoor shooting cinema
Recommended for 1-6 persons, with group exchange up to 20 people
Train (max. 6 persons)
per 1 / 4 hours :............................................ ..................... 32,00 €
per hour :............................................... ........................ 100,00 €
Tontaubenhalle
One-day booth fee .......................................... 8,00 €
15er Round Trap / Skeet / courses ........................................ 7,50 €
25er Round Trap / Skeet / courses ........................................ 10,00 €
Exclusive single use of the hall for seminars or training
Includes booth fee and pigeons (except ammunition)
first hour ................................................ .................... 160,00 €
each additional ................................................ .................... 120,00 €
100 m indoor shooting range
Single track on disc
Per ¼ hour ............................................... .................... 8,00 €
Per hour ................................................ ....................... 28,00 €
Paths completely
Per hour ................................................ ....................... 128,00 €
25m to 100m Cinema
Recommended for 1-6 persons
Gruppenwechse with up to 20 people
Per ¼ hour ............................................... .................... 32,00 €
Per hour ................................................ ....................... 128,00 €
Running Boar, Kipphase
Per ¼ hour ............................................... .................... 12,00 €
Per hour ................................................ ....................... 40,00 €
300m indoor shooting range
Per ¼ hour ............................................... ................... 10,00 €
Per hour ................................................ ...................... 36,00 €
Paths completely
Per hour ................................................ ...................... 138,00 €
25 m Indoor Kurzwaffenbahn
Per ¼ hour ............................................... ................... 5,00 €
Per hour ................................................ ...................... 18,00 €
Paths completely
Per hour ................................................ ...................... 80,00 €
(Prices for all firing lanes)
Rifles:
Short or long gun (weapon per day and )..................... 20,00 €
Individual Shooting care
Handling, safety at cost
Trainer hours / shooting lessons:
Individual
Hours ................................................. ......................... 70,00 €
Group up to 5 people
Hours ................................................. ......................... 100,00 €
Ammo costs 100€ = $123
Ammunition supply
A unique large and wide range of over 900 various types of ammunition waiting on a shelf length of total over 21 meters for you!
We are happy to advise you on the choice!
12/70 Rottweil steel trap 24 g 2.6 mm
1000 pcs ............................................... ................................................ € 210 , 00, -
12/70 Winchester X2 24g. 2.41 mm
1000 pcs ............................................... ................................................ € 225 , 00, -
12/70 Eley Olympic Trap 24g. 2.3 mm
1000 pcs ............................................... ................................................ € 178 , 00, -
.22 Long Rifle CCI SV
10,000 pieces ............................................... ............................................. € 416.00, -
.22 Long Rifle Remington Target 50 Pack
10,000 pieces ............................................... ............................................. € 359.00, -
9mm Luger Magtech 124gr FMC 9B.
1000 pcs ............................................... ................................................ € 189 , 00, -
.45 ACP Magtech 230 gr FMC-SWC
1000 pcs ............................................... ................................................ € 299 , 00, -
.44 Rem. Mag 240 gr Magtech SJSP
1000 pcs ............................................... ................................................ € 387 , 00, -
.222 Rem. Winchester 50gr. TMS
1000 pcs ............................................... ................................................ € 575 , 00, -
.223 Rem. Remington 52gr. Sierra HPBT MK
1000 pcs ............................................... ................................................ € 518 , 00, -
.223 Rem. Remington 69gr. Sierra HPBT MK
1000 pcs ............................................... ................................................ € 510 , 00, -
.308 Win. Remington 168gr. Sierra HPBT MK
1000 pcs ............................................... ................................................ € 679 , 00, -
4.5 mm H & N Diabolo Sport 4.50mm
25 000 pcs ............................................... .............................................. € 175.00 , -
CarlosDJackal
05-31-10, 22:32
Holy crap!! That's the first Indoor Trap Field I've ever seen. :eek:
Well, as the man said- it _IS_ in Ulm.
What a remarkable facility. Thanks for posting that.
dookie1481
06-02-10, 14:31
Germans, man. Even the cafe looks like you could perform surgery there.
Jay
Army Chief
06-02-10, 15:14
I've been to one of these facilities in Hessen (http://www.schiesskino-rhein-main.de/Partner.htm), and to be sure, it felt odd to be firing an 8mm Mauser indoors.
The facilities are magnificent, the target/film sequences are uniformly excellent, and the costs aren't really that bad when you split the session between six or so shooters. Honestly, if you tried to go with much less than that, things would get painful in a hurry, because you're typically firing 30.06 equivalent loads as a minimum.
AC
I understand business is good:D:D
http://www.mszu.de/?lang=en click the vid
^^^^^^^^^^
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=665800
Sadly, in most of Europe, guns and hunting are only for the wealthy. Often a firearms license is dependent on membership in an expensive shooting club or hunting club.
my bad for missing the original thread...some good stuff in there.
while it is quite impressive, it seems to me it would be difficult to stay profitable (here anyway)
I like the idea of air conditioned clays but i would think picking up the birds would be challenging for some reason.
mods...close if needed.
CarlosDJackal
08-24-10, 13:06
I would rather shoot at the crappiest ranges (and have) than give up the Second Amendment.
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