View Full Version : Muzzle/slide protection device
I personally know 2 LEO's who were in scuffle on the ground life/death fights that lead to the officer firing and killing the perp. One had to use a backup compact glock, the other was a glock 22. Luckily both prevailed, but one did fire a near contact shot to the head of the perp. My question is this, an automatic when pushed against a threat will be pushed out of battery and not fire. Does anyone know of a product that will mount low profile to the accessory rail and come up infront of the muzzle/slide to allow a contact shot or muzzle strike if needed that would prevent the slide from being pushed out of battery?
Said device could be removed easily for disassembly, maybe only be0.050-.075" thick, so it should not effect carry/use. Just something to come up and offer a standoff to the muzzle somewhat to allow a contact shot without inducing a malfunction. Does anyone think a device like this would be useful? It could also have a rail on the lower side, like some laser units, so that a light could be mounted below it.
ROCKET20_GINSU
05-26-10, 14:03
I'm not sure if this is a viable answer/suggestion for your scenario but I find that a X300/X200/X400 works well when attached to a G19 or G17 in this capacity. While not designed for it, it does create standoff and prevents the pistol from being pushed out of battery at most contact angles. Sure an opponent could maneuver a body part to push the pistol out of battery from the muzzle end, but then again he could also do that by grabbing the slide, which would negate the effects of the assembly you described.
I've seen a device like the one you described a year or two ago on the cover of a gun magazine on a sig, when I get home I'll see if I can dig up a picture.
GU
TriumphRat675
05-26-10, 14:10
CZ used to make one. (The bayonet is detachable).
I have no opinion on it.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=228932
I think the light may be the best option, providing additional utility. The option I think that would be the cheapest would involve a rail adapter and metal sides the create a "U". The issue with said device would become apparent when you searched for a holster, and any issues with the employer. I will assume a WML is easier to get approved and holsters are made, including retention holsters, which I dont doubt are required.
I recall one being marketed a few years ago, that was as you described.
I don't recall now if it was polymer or aluminum, but it did attach to the accessory rail and esentially placed a fixed and aggressively checkered (if I recall correctly) plate between the muzzle and the potential obstruction, thus preventing the slide from being pushed out of battery.
My initial concern with such a device would be the immediate availability of quality holsters and the possibility that it would prevent the attachment of a weapon light.
While I haven't tried it, it seems that at least some people have used a weapon light to accomplish the same goal, while retaining the ability to effectively ID targets in low-light, and using the wide array of holsters already available for most duty weapon/white light combos.
-RD62
There's the Omega Options Combat Strike Plate (http://www.omegaoptions.com/products.html), but I think it's a hardware solution for a software problem. Retention shooting would seem to be a far better solution.
Even with the 'strike plate' on there, it's worth considering that weird things can happen to an auto when the muzzle is up against something that has the potential to spew back matter. Hopefully someone can provide a link, but I can recall reading about at least one situation in which an officer's weapon malfunctioned after getting fouled with soft tissue.
SmokeJumper
05-26-10, 16:45
I think that a weapon mounted light on your duty pistol is about the best device for this. Massad Ayoob discusses this topic in the latest issue of American Handgunner in the Ayoob Files article about a Florida officer that ended a leg-bail, fight, with a shooting of the suspect at contact range to the head with a Glock-22 and TLR-1 weapon light.
http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMGPublications/AmericanHandgunner/AHJA10/?page=20
There's the Omega Options Combat Strike Plate (http://www.omegaoptions.com/products.html), but I think it's a hardware solution for a software problem. Retention shooting would seem to be a far better solution.
Now there's something you don't see every day.
I agree, doesn't seem very practical no matter what one's circumstance may be.
My views have pretty much already been answered by the other members. However, I can add my experiences in having used similar devices in the past.
The first one I saw was on my mentor's (Cmdr. Mario Martinez Jr/HCSO) Smith 4506. It was custom made out of titanium. He called it a "Battle Block." I also saw one on Chris Carraci's coonan 1911 in 357 magnum and on his 2nd Gen Glock 21. He called his "Alternative Force Block's." His were made by GG&G, I believe. GG&G made them for the 1911 and SIG and (I think) were made of aluminum.
ZM weapons also manufactured some of these for some pretty trick 1911's, along with some other innovative items.
Mine were a custom job on a 1911 Commander and a production one for a Glock 3rd Gen. On the 1911 the frame was drilled and tapped for the device, and on the Glock it simply slide on the rail and was secured by an allen screw.
There were no issues with the one on the 1911, however, the one for the Glock was not a precision made instrument and there were tolerance issues with it. (The slide tended to impact the front of the device as it sat to close to the muzzle, and the bottom rails did not go all the way to rear of the rails on the frame.)
In theory the device makes sense. However, the very real issue (as has previously been stated) is that at contact range, there is an alarming issue of flesh and/or material being trapped in between the device and the muzzle causing a critical problem with lock up and further shots. A good solid light (Surefire X200/300/400) offers the advantage of said light and also can act as a standoff device in a pinch. It also serves very well in a less lethal sternum strike mode. It does not have the issue of foreign matter being trapped between it and the muzzle.
Having said that, with contact shots one runs the risk of foreign matter seizing the weapon up anyway, auto and revolver alike. There is no free lunch and sometimes contact shots can not always avoided. Carry a readily accessible secondary gun.
They are neat historical and conversation pieces, but I believe that they are of very limited use in certain situations. I would simply go with a stout light on the end of the gun.
Outlander Systems
05-26-10, 20:31
Wouldn't a threaded barrel accomplish this?
Wouldn't a threaded barrel accomplish this?
Accompanied by what? Or maybe I am misunderstanding your question.
Wouldn't a threaded barrel accomplish this?
Pushing on the barrel will also cause the gun to move out of battery.
And yeah, a light seems to make more sense here than having that meat tenderizer hanging off the end of your gun.
As far as 1911s go, would this be one excuse to buy a full length guide rod? I've got 2 1911s but neither have a FLGR. Just what would happen with this set up under this scenario?
As far as 1911s go, would this be one excuse to buy a full length guide rod? I've got 2 1911s but neither have a FLGR. Just what would happen with this set up under this scenario?
I have a 1911 with a FLGR. Everything works exactly like any other gun with a full length rod. It's not as easy to push out of battery as a traditional plug setup, but I don't think it's something to be worried about. I certainly wouldn't swap over my 1911's for this reason alone.
SWATcop556
05-26-10, 23:04
My X300 accomplishes this for me. Training will always win out over gear but the mounted light assists. I don't see the weapon going out of battery when being pressed against someones head. I see this being more of an issue with a shot to the abdomen of shooting out of an article of clothing.
I completely agree. Was just curious about an up close and personal situation and if a FLGR would offer any advantages. A weapon light does make much more sense though.
I have a 1911 with a FLGR. Everything works exactly like any other gun with a full length rod. It's not as easy to push out of battery as a traditional plug setup, but I don't think it's something to be worried about. I certainly wouldn't swap over my 1911's for this reason alone.
jasonhgross
05-27-10, 08:33
There are so many other things to worry about that if taken care of will remediate or prevent this situation.
NCPatrolAR
05-27-10, 11:26
Sounds likes a hardware resolution to a software malfunction. The key to remember is that, when up close, you want to maintain a small amount of space between your muzzle and the suspect. If you find your gun jammed into someone's body; you should have logged the training time to know that you need to retract the gun slightly and create a small amount of space.
I avoid making contact with a subject's body with my weapon not only to reduce the chances of the gun coming out of battery, but to also limit the ability of the suspect to manuver around my weapon and attempt a disarm/avoid being shot.
not saying I have been in a muzzle contact fight ,but would think that considering the gravity of these situations the gun would be getting fired as soon as it is directed at the threat and before contact had been established?
NCPatrolAR
05-27-10, 13:01
not saying I have been in a muzzle contact fight ,but would think that considering the gravity of these situations the gun would be getting fired as soon as it is directed at the threat and before contact had been established?
All depends on the circumstances of the fight.
thopkins22
05-27-10, 13:23
not saying I have been in a muzzle contact fight ,but would think that considering the gravity of these situations the gun would be getting fired as soon as it is directed at the threat and before contact had been established?
Videos and pictures in the AAR of this class really demonstrate how difficult that can be.
From this AAR thread. http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=54154
The videos.
http://community.greygrouptraining.com/2010/05/22/shivworks-ecqc-2-on-1-drills-may-1416-2010.aspx
http://community.greygrouptraining.com/2010/05/19/shivworks-ecqc-may-1416-2010.aspx
Beat Trash
05-27-10, 15:14
I think you are looking for a hardware solution to a software problem.
Our officers are trained to avoid contact shots. Not only could the weapon be pushed out of battery, but on a contact shot, you get "splatter-back" for a lack of a better term. Body fluid/mass (sometimes referred to by Beat Officers as "body goober"), could be sent into the barrel/action of the weapon, causing a malfunction. This would be difficult/next to impossible to clear while rolling around with the suspect, should a follow up shot be required. Often in real life a follow up shot is required.
Most situations I have seen or read about over the last 18 years where an officer was forced to do a contact shot involved a weapon retention situation in which the officer was struggling to prevent the suspect from gaining control of the officers weapon.
I don't know that I personally see the need for a LEO to have a device attached to the end of the handgun to prevent the gun going out of battery on a contact shot.
My personal experience has taught me that if I jam the gun hard enough into the suspect's ear, they tend to realize that play time is over. If not, they tend to jerk away a bit, enough to prevent the gun going out of battery should a shot be required. So far, I have been fortunate in that I have not had to shoot someone with a contact shot while struggling on the ground. I'm just fine with that!
Magic_Salad0892
05-27-10, 16:24
3 Options:
Weapon Light
Training
Suppressor (I'm almost positive this would work, and in the event of soft tissue in the suppressor, I think there would be enough room in the baffle chamber to accommodate both the tissue, gasses, and round.)
In all practical situations, I think the first two would be fine.
But I wanted to bring up suppressors. (As a suppressor is on my HD weapon due to being indoors.)
On a pistol that is able to be pushed out of battery via its barrel*, why would a suppressor prevent this? This was already addressed earlier in the thread with the discussion of a threaded barrel. Simply adding length to a barrel doesn't suddenly change it from a moving part to a fixed one.
No need to hypothesize on a forum though. You say you've already got the suppressed handgun set up? Go clear the weapon and then push the end of the suppressor into something and see whether your weapon stays perfectly in battery.
Some of these questions would be quicker to personally test than to ask about on a forum.
*Obviously there are some pistols that utilize a fixed barrel, but I believe the discussion has been outside of that context thus far.
Magic_Salad0892
05-27-10, 17:38
You're right.
It doesn't stay 100% in battery.
Wonder about a Makorov, or P7.
Outlander Systems
05-27-10, 22:23
Yep. Just checked.
A threaded barrel doesn't prevent this. I stand corrected. I'd always assumed the pressure on the slide is what caused the weapon to be brought out of battery.
IIRC, the XD-line allows the user to apply pressure on the muzzle, without issue.
Assy Mcgee
05-28-10, 03:15
http://media.midwayusa.com/ProductImages/Large/228932.jpg
hmmm, i wonder why this was disconued by the manufacturer....:eek:
I think that a weapon mounted light on your duty pistol is about the best device for this. Massad Ayoob discusses this topic in the latest issue of American Handgunner in the Ayoob Files article about a Florida officer that ended a leg-bail, fight, with a shooting of the suspect at contact range to the head with a Glock-22 and TLR-1 weapon light.
http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMGPublications/AmericanHandgunner/AHJA10/?page=20
Exactly what the OP reminded me of.
A weaponlight is fine and dandy for a duty weapon but really doesn't address concealed carry. If someone were able to manufacture a minimalistic precision polymer standoff device (say that ten times fast) mounted on the light rail I might change my mind on its utility. Unfortunately, previous versions have been way to bulky. Magpul comes to mind as someone who could probably sort this out (fat chance).
The alternative force blocks were all the rage in the early 90's. I took several classes from Mario Martinez and a few others where we utilized both handguns and long guns as impact weapons in weapon retention situations. No using your firearms as an impact weapon is not ideal, but the techniques worked very well. They (AFBs) seem to have faded away over the years.
In teaching touch shooting (muzzle contacting the target), I would always caution guys to touch then slightly release the weapon to ensure the gun was in battery. And before the debate arises it is a viable techniqe in certain very limited sitauations. We had two Smith J frames available for our tactical team for specific sitations where we knew we would be employing contact shots thus eliminating pushing the gun out of battery.
Having said all that...the current use of handgun mounted flashlights pretty much eliminates the problem, as already mentioned.
I'd vote weapon light.
The longer Surefires and even the TLRs have a decent amount of forward hang.
I personally have a TLR on my USP and the body (oval battery compartment) sits flush with the muzzle while the light tube (the circular part that houses the reflector and LED) clears the muzzle plane.
Looking at picking up another TLR and an IWB light holster for my carry Glock. Been thinking about that one for a while. Weight options and such.
USP with TLR1
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/9907/dsc01473hg.jpg
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A weaponlight is fine and dandy for a duty weapon but really doesn't address concealed carry. If someone were able to manufacture a minimalistic precision polymer standoff device (say that ten times fast) mounted on the light rail I might change my mind on its utility. Unfortunately, previous versions have been way to bulky. Magpul comes to mind as someone who could probably sort this out (fat chance).
This was my line of thinking in my post, sure on a 1st line duty weapon a light works great for this; but the officer I described in one of the situations about had become "separated" from his primary in the struggle outside of a mobile home. This happened in a very small town, he was the only officer from this town on duty with county back miles away. Things escaladed rapidly and he was up against a larger, determined, Meth-head. Folks can say what they will about it being a software issue, maybe it was in some ways; but the fact of the matter is the guy was in the fight of his life. He ended up on the ground, suspect on top choking him out. He had to use his baby glock as a BUG and put down the suspect. He was lucky, he could have easily in the rush/panic of the situation have put the glock (that has no light) to the perp's head, accidently pushed it out of battery and been SOL. One would think in that situation, near loss of consciousness, "pushing away" at the badguy would be a natural response while firing the shot.
My thinking was a somewhat cheap-minimalistic standoff device would in this situation be a great little piece of insurance.
I don't care so much if its cheap as long as it works and adds very little bulk.
My dad always said an auto is offensive, a revolver is defensive. It is starting to make sense after all these years.
I like the weaponlight solution combined with training, the weaponlight is useful in its own right for illumination. I never thought about it being useful for "contact" shooting before. Now I have two reasons to have an X300 on my wish list for my G19.
Then of course, I'll have to get a new holster too, it never ends does it?
As to hard contact with an auto pistol;
yes, there might be blow-back, but the gas being vented into the bad guy means a much larger hole, this could be a significant advantage to the officer.
Another thing to think about is that auto pistols require a certain amount of working room, for the slide to function, for the brass to eject, and for clothing and such to not get fed into the ejection port as the slide closes.
This would be one reason I am such a fan of the 642 as a BUG.
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