View Full Version : Is my AR too good for wolf ammo?
BushmasterFanBoy
05-20-07, 21:27
The title says it all. I want to know if my M4 is simply too good or too expensive to risk any damage to my AR as a result of wolf. I've put about 2k into the rifle (including installation costs, etc), so here is the specs.
Bushmaster M4 14.5 chrome lined 1/9 barrel (yea, I know its not a Colt, but I love 'em all the same;) )
LaRue 13.2 rail system
MI front and rear BUIS
Eotech 512
Hogue grip
Phantom 5C1
Vickers/BFG sling
What I want to know is this: Is my carbine too good for wolf? I know many of you spend a lot more on carbines but this is my most expensive "black evil gun" I have. And whats the worst that could happen? A KB?:eek:
Should I keep to putting expensive $.40 ammo through it or should I accept wolf and put it through my carbine?
HLDefender
05-20-07, 21:57
The title says it all. I want to know if my M4 is simply too good or too expensive to risk any damage to my AR as a result of wolf. I've put about 2k into the rifle (including installation costs, etc), so here is the specs.
Bushmaster M4 14.5 chrome lined 1/9 barrel (yea, I know its not a Colt, but I love 'em all the same;) )
LaRue 13.2 rail system
MI front and rear BUIS
Eotech 512
Hogue grip
Phantom 5C1
Vickers/BFG sling
What I want to know is this: Is my carbine too good for wolf? I know many of you spend a lot more on carbines but this is my most expensive "black evil gun" I have. And whats the worst that could happen? A KB?:eek:
Should I keep to putting expensive $.40 ammo through it or should I accept wolf and put it through my carbine?
I think you'll find a lot of opinions about Wolf in general from both sides. I too have a Bushmaster almost identical $$ wise and used to stay away from Wolf based on fears that were only "semi" accurate. Although you'll always hear stories of KB's from Wolf -- I now believe that they are just as numerous as any other brand that costs more. I have put over 2k of Wolf in my guns and have never had any major issues.
There are guys who only shoot Wolf with many thousands of full auto rounds without a hitch. As for KB's -- I'd think you be ok. As for premature barrel wear using steel cased ammo - I personally have never heard anyone complain about that as well. The older larquer coated stuff was bad in terms of gumming up the chamber, but the new poly coated stuff is fine. IMO -- not nearly as dirty as they used to be in terms of fouling. With the "good stuff" only going up in price, and harder to find any decent mil spec ammo -- I say go with Wolf.
HLD...
baffle Stack
05-21-07, 02:40
Wolf is fine for plinking. Save the good ammo for the bad guys.
ffhounddog
05-21-07, 06:14
Wolf=training ammo for me.
I have a Sabre Defense and my rifle is not too good for it :D
look through the paperwork that came with your Bushmaster, and you should find a piece of paper with "approved" ammunition which they say they have used extensively in testing with their rifles with no ill effects, and you will see that Wolf ammo is listed.
I personally never worried too much about accelerated barrel or chamber wear--the hard chrome is much harder than the type of steel used by wolf for cases. The only thing that ever concerned me at all with steel cased ammo was possible accelerated extractor wear or something in my 1911's, but again, the steel used for these is much harder than the steel case, so even there it's probably not an issue
Some people love it, some people hate it.
I have heard complaints about FTF, FTE. I believe those issues were real for those rifles, but the same ammo may be good for other rifles.
There is no significant wear difference between Brass cased ammo and steel cases ammo (with or without zinc coating).
Conclusion:
NEVER use WOLF, Barnaul, Silver Bear, Brown bear ammo for important stuff, but if your gun likes one of the above buy a small pile of it and use it for plinking.
Grin Reaper
05-21-07, 09:49
Hi, this is my 1st post here -- I've been lurking for a while, though, and am impressed with the overall tone of the posts.
Re: Wolf ammo -- Almost everyone seems to think it's an inferior product, but it is undeniably an affordable training aid. It doesn't seem to fragment as well as other FMJ, so it would be a poor choice for 'real shooting', but is my first choice for practice.
I have a buddy who shot NRA High Power for years, using Wolf steel--case exclusively. He reports that the Woolf was a little dirtier than other ammo, but otherwise reliable.
Yes. My opinion is that you spent all this money on a quality AR, why run the worst ammo you can find through it???
C4
David Thomas
05-21-07, 12:55
Is your rifle too good? No. Too expensive? No.
All of the quality components and accessories do not make your rifle too good to shoot wolf. It is still a bushmaster underneath, and bushmaster has indicated wolf is an acceptable ammo in their AR15's. So, the people that manufactured your gun have already answered that question for you.
Even though your gun is not too good, is wolf so bad that you should avoid shooting it? Well, why are you shooting? For fun and trigger time? Or will you actually be training with your AR15 (or other serious use situation)?
For the former:
My opinion is that if shooting the wolf at half of the price means that you will shoot twice as much, then get some trigger time in and shoot the wolf and save the better stuff for later. If the difference is shooting with wolf versus not shooting at all then the answer is even easier, shoot wolf.
If money is no object or you get free ammo, then shoot something better.
The problem I see, is that the Federal AE is almost impossible to find, especially in any real quantity, as is any other semi-economical ammo of equal quality. Even when you do find the better ammo the price per case is too much for most people to afford. Radway Green or other surplus is either gone or has increased in price along with all of the recently manufactured ammo. High quality ammo like Black Hills and Hornady TAP might as well not exist at the current price point for the majority of shooters in America.
So, what else is the average american shooter supposed to shoot?
I trust it more than someone else's reloads (Black Hills being the exception).
For training or for serious use, avoid Wolf ammo.
BushmasterFanBoy
05-21-07, 13:46
By "training" I take it that you mean actual carbine classes and such, and I would never use wolf in that setting.
Also, I would NEVER use wolf for anything other than plinking at the range so that I don't simply quit shooting. My plan is to use wolf to save $$$$, letting me slowly squirel away and save enough of good surplus that I can say I have "enough". (eventually;) )
I have 1570 rounds of the "good stuff" on hand right now, consisting of the following:
240 rounds UMC 55gr.
200 rounds AE 55gr.
200 rounds IMI .223 55gr.
930 rounds Guat 55gr.
I want to save the Guat and IMI for the reason that both rounds are supposed to have sealed primers, and the IMI has tar sealed bullets as well as primer crimps. I don't know about bullet sealent on the guat, though.
Considering I'd have a tad over 5-210 round loads from the Guat and IMI ammo together, I don't want to shoot anymore of those at all. This leaves me with expensive $.35+ US commercial ammo to shoot.
I'd really like to use Wolf to keep the cost of shooting down. I'm already bummed out, considering the last time I went shooting was...
February :(
and before that it was sometime last year...:eek:
I only use Federal American Eagle (AE223) for plinking. Doing all sorts of drills from slow fire to rapid fire, I've not yet experienced a malfunction of any type. My attitude to my rifle is no different than my attitude to my truck, my mountain bike, my knives, etc. Buy the best that you can afford. The problems I see in shooting and many other activities is often the cause of trying to save a few pennies or dollars. Remember, you get what you pay for and you get what you deserve!
Having said that, I have noticed from numerous sites that the issue of Wolf ammo comes up alot and that there have been more negative posts about it than there have been positive. Is this not what we call a "clue"?:confused:
Rock-N-Ruin
05-21-07, 14:17
Yes. My opinion is that you spent all this money on a quality AR, why run the worst ammo you can find through it???
C4
AGREED!!! Is it really worth it just to save a couple bucks???:confused:
[QUOTE=
I'd really like to use Wolf to keep the cost of shooting down. I'm already bummed out, considering the last time I went shooting was...
February :(
and before that it was sometime last year...:eek:[/QUOTE]
BMFB, it's a matter of priorities. Me, I've been picking up a brick of AE223 every paycheck. If I get an overtime cheque, I'll pick up another. The guy at the store says, "You already went through that last batch??" Sometimes I can't do it because other things take priority (eg. daughter needs new expensive basketball shoes, son requires new high end fishing reel, etc.) so I make due. I think IMHO, that the important thing about getting to the range is to make it quality practice (as per Pat Rogers teachings). I subscribe to Paul Howe's ideas of one third of your time should be live fire and two thirds dry fire practice. All too often I meet guys at the range that ask me how often I'm shooting at the range and they're often surprised by how much less time I spend at the range than they do yet they shoot like someone that's unfamiliar with the basics of shooting. And they spend hordes on ammo. When I watch them shoot, they often don't have "a plan" and they just send rounds downrange indiscriminantly. When I get a chance to help them they act as though I'm some sort of saviour. And then in short time they're performing at a respectable level. My personal advice would be for you to make yourself accountable for each and every round that you fire. But that's just my take. Good luck with your shooting;)
baffle Stack
05-21-07, 22:02
Well all has been good info so heed it, especial the dry fire part.
But I look at it this way:
I am not a professional trigger puller. Because of this any trigger time is worth a lot to me, weather it’s wolf or TAP 75grain. If the rifle blows up on me during practice its ok because I’m not a serious user and the financial offset is of using wolf vs paying twice as much for half the trigger time is worth it. But by no means would I put wolf through my carbine if my life depended on it.
YMMV
Shoot safe buddy
bullitt5172
05-22-07, 08:48
AGREED!!! Is it really worth it just to save a couple bucks???:confused:
Wolf is considerably cheaper than "good" brass cased ammo. Therefore, you can shoot more of it. So what if this might wear out an extracter (not likely). I was just at a training last week (for work) and we shot probably 4000 rounds of Wolf through the LMT MRPs, S&W MP15's and RRA's with ZERO issues and these guns were dirty to begin with (but ran wet). We can afford better ammo but why waste the money? We were still hitting the steel targets at 300yards with our ACOG's so I see no issue training with Wolf.
Pat's gonna slap me for this....
But heres my take.. I have heard some say... that if you AR can't run Wolf.. there is something wrong with it.
I have shot a few cases thru my older Bushmaster (The Polymer.. not the laquer)
and it ran fine, was fairly accurate and at the time was cheap.
Now I don't know about the rest of ya... but I'm a Poor bastard that still likes to keep his rd count up there. If I can shoot more using Wolf because it's cheaper then a $400 case of new factory... I'm gonna shoot it.
Changing extractors and springs is cheap and easy if you run a log book (you do.. right??)
Cleaning Chrome lined chambers (You have an AR with Chrome lined Chambers..Right??) a little more frequently is a small price to pay.
Besides... if EVERY rd always goes bang... how will you ever practice IAD's...:cool:
HLDefender
05-22-07, 17:54
I look at it this way - I built two guns -- A rifle and a carbine. Both have the best parts within reason to function properly. I shoot precision and zeroing with the quality ammo. Once all thats done, I switch to the Wolf for "practical" style shooting drills ie : double taps, movement, ect. Wolf allows me to enjoy the main reason why I have these guns -- to have trigger time. If one goes bang(god forbid), I'll just fix it and rely upon the one thats still working for protection until the other is fixed.
I have no problem playing the odds that Wolf will someday screw up my equipment. Because the odds of that happening are actually pretty low. BTW - I have seen much more expensive ammo cause damage to weapons, its not only a Wolf problem. I realize the QC is much better with the "good stuff", but Wolf has come a long way. I just remember to keep my eyes protected with whatever I shoot. Kind of corny but if I had the only two guns left in the world -- of course I'd only shoot with the very best ammo. But thats not the case and there are tons of parts available if something does break.
HLD...
The fact that you can pick up your brass at the end of the day and save it for later is well worth the few extra dollars to me.
I reload pistol ammo and have cans full of .223 brass just sitting there waiting for me to get a little more adventurous.
Wolf cases just sit and rust away at the range...
BushmasterFanBoy
05-22-07, 21:04
The fact that you can pick up your brass at the end of the day and save it for later is well worth the few extra dollars to me.
I reload pistol ammo and have cans full of .223 brass just sitting there waiting for me to get a little more adventurous.
Wolf cases just sit and rust away at the range...
Exactly.;) I'm not a reloader (if I was I suspect I wouldn't complain about prices now would I?) and I don't care to save brass other than to just "have it" with no real purpose. Wolf in that case is neutral in that regard since I pick up my cases, or as many as I can find, whenever I shoot.
You're not a reloader, shoot Wolf and pick up your cases and as many as you can find? I missed something.
I do plan to one day reload the rifle ammo. I was going to start when I started pistol but the deal I found on pills disappeared too fast and lost interest...
Nathan_Bell
05-23-07, 08:00
One great thing about Wolf is that you can police up the casings with a magnet, none of this stooping over bs.
Robb Jensen
05-23-07, 08:06
Wolf wouldn't run in a few of my guns. After a chamber reaming with a Ned Christiansen 5.56mm NATO neck and throat reamer, now all my 5.56mm ARs run 100% on Wolf. They do run dirtier at the face of the bolt and extractor w/Wolf but they do run.
ffhounddog
05-23-07, 08:51
I have reloaded some of the boxer primed wolf. I saw pics on the ARFCOM reloading board and decided to try. I only do it once but lately I have not done it. I keep finding .223 brass at my range. In the past 5 weeks I have gotten about 500 pieces of decent brass. Frontier, black hills match, Hornady, WCC, TW, LC and one Laupua.
Wolf wouldn't run in a few of my guns. After a chamber reaming with a Ned Christiansen 5.56mm NATO neck and throat reamer, now all my 5.56mm ARs run 100% on Wolf. They do run dirtier at the face of the bolt and extractor w/Wolf but they do run.
Have you noticed that their primer sealant cruds up your firing pin channel in the bolt faster as well? This seems to be the case for me.
It is also getting to the point that I will shoot whatever I can get these days.
Robb Jensen
05-23-07, 09:11
Have you noticed that their primer sealant cruds up your firing pin channel in the bolt faster as well? This seems to be the case for me.
It is also getting to the point that I will shoot whatever I can get these days.
Yes. It's takes a little more thorough cleaning.
Grin Reaper
05-23-07, 11:12
"But heres my take.. I have heard some say... that if you AR can't run Wolf.. there is something wrong with it."
I think along the same lines. In fact, that's why I sold my Kimber CDPII -- it shot very accurately, BUT would not reliably function with Wolf ammo. My thinking was (and is) if it truly is a high-quality [read: expensive] firearm, it should work with everything.
Only two legitimate gripes I've heard about Wolf is that the steel cases might cause your extractor to wear out faster, and can damage a stainless steel chamber.
I had a chamber scratched by a steel shaving from a Wolf case. I don't think it was enough to cause malfunctions, but the barrel maker could see it with a borescope. That can't be a good thing!
Extractor wear? What I do with my chrome-lined "beater" M4 is use a different bolt for Wolf than I do for brass. I only use brass cased ammo for "serious" stuff, so if the Wolf bolt or extractor goes south, it'll only be at a range practice session.
I buy it cheap and spend more time on the range maintaining skills that will go away if not used often.
I don't reload so I have no need for brass collecting. I have a ton of Lake City that I am saving for a rainy day.
wayfarin'stranger
05-23-07, 12:35
Okay, I shoot steel cased 62 grain Russian Brown Bear as of lately and I assume it's alot like Wolf. I've had no problems whatsoever, and the brown bear brand runs alot cleaner through my rifle than remmington.
Now, I could spend about $400-$500 for 1000 rounds of really good ammo or spend $160 for the steel cased stuff.....why not shoot the cheap stuff if it works and buy another AR with all the money you save?
Shoot what works.
I don't shoot it because it would void the lifetime warranty on my AR's. I'm not taking any chances with that, but if that wasn't the case I may pick up a case or two since it's cheap. As far as picking up spent casings that a few of you were talking about, it's mandatory in the military & at my dept's range. I guess the bean counters sell the brass since we are not permitted to shoot reloads or steel case. Wolf casings would just be thrown away anyway if we were.
BushmasterFanBoy
05-23-07, 15:01
You're not a reloader, shoot Wolf and pick up your cases and as many as you can find? I missed something.
I do plan to one day reload the rifle ammo. I was going to start when I started pistol but the deal I found on pills disappeared too fast and lost interest...
I was saying it doesn't matter to me if the cases are reloadable or not, I don't reload. Still, that doesn't change the fact that I always clean up my mess at the range, brass cases or not.;)
bullitt5172
05-23-07, 18:51
I don't shoot it because it would void the lifetime warranty on my AR's. I'm not taking any chances with that, but if that wasn't the case I may pick up a case or two since it's cheap. As far as picking up spent casings that a few of you were talking about, it's mandatory in the military & at my dept's range. I guess the bean counters sell the brass since we are not permitted to shoot reloads or steel case. Wolf casings would just be thrown away anyway if we were.
OK ;)
Ah, cleaning up. I was gonna reply to the other magnet comment with a little bewilderment. I don't know why you'd want to pick it up to begin with but now I get it.
nationwide
05-23-07, 20:58
I don't shoot it because it would void the lifetime warranty on my AR's.
:rolleyes:
Gunny, these things are like LEGO'S!!!!! Surely you know how to detail strip your bolt if you own more than one AR. Worst case scenario, you replace your extractor. Heck, you shoot enough, you will be eventually replacing parts anyways.
I'm a huge fan of Wolf polymer and have fired thousands of rounds of it through my 16" and 11.5" AR's WITHOUT A SINGLE FAILURE TRACEABLE TO THE AMMO.
Heck, I know guys with M16's that will ONLY run Wolf. And their POS Sendra RR cost more than anyone's tricked out Colt "safe queen" ;)
BushmasterFanBoy
05-23-07, 21:24
Thanks for all the replies. I think I'll get 500 rounds of wolf with my next ammo purchase, if anything to see if my AR is up to running it reliably. If that works out I think I have a solution: Buy 2 rounds of wolf to 1 round quality brass mil. ammo. this gives me shooting ammo but also increases my "good" ammo cache.
Like getting 1000 rounds of wolf and 500 of xm193. (or similar, if I can find it:( ) I have 1000 rounds to practice with and 500 opportunities to put those skills to some REAL use.;)
I think there's a thread in the sale forums for 800 or so rounds of Wolf...
ETA: it's 900 rounds FTF in Phoenix...
:rolleyes:
Gunny, these things are like LEGO'S!!!!! Surely you know how to detail strip your bolt if you own more than one AR. Worst case scenario, you replace your extractor. Heck, you shoot enough, you will be eventually replacing parts anyways.
I'm a huge fan of Wolf polymer and have fired thousands of rounds of it through my 16" and 11.5" AR's WITHOUT A SINGLE FAILURE TRACEABLE TO THE AMMO.
Heck, I know guys with M16's that will ONLY run Wolf. And their POS Sendra RR cost more than anyone's tricked out Colt "safe queen" ;)
A few of my guns are assembled from parts here & there. But, my Oly & CMMG have lifetime warranties. Part of the warranty states no reloads or foreign ammo. If I had a prob I couldn't fix myself while shooting Wolf for example, & had to send it back to the factory where they found out Wolf was used & voided my warranty, I would not be happy so I'm not gonna take a chance with it. Fortunately I've only had one prob in the last few years that I could not fix & had to return before I even shot the rifle. I would never bash anyone cuz they shoot Wolf. That's just me. I've become rather fond of Federal rounds so I have no need to buy anything eles....yet anyway.
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