View Full Version : Any one here who does not like Vertical Grip?
what is the reason you do i like them?
putting bipod and Vertical grip is too much?
DaBears_85
05-26-10, 23:23
I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you speaking of the vert grip that has the bipod that comes out of the bottom of it?
I don't personally like vert grips anymore but the question overall is subjective to the person asking it. The only way to decide is to try it yourself and see how it suits you.
Edit: The reason I don't like them is because I haven't ever been able to find a spot for it on the rail where I've felt completely comfortable with it. After taking it off recently to perform some preventative maint. I found that I feel like I have much better control of the weapon without it. As I said though, it depends on how you feel about it. It's impossible to give you a definitive answer either way.
Somewhere I read that Reed Knight threw in the vertical grips way back when the military first started buying his rails for M4's. The military came back and asked for more grips because it improved the accuracy of the troops by a surprisingly significant percentage. I like 'em, but I know the trend seems to be away from them, in the civilian population at least.
thopkins22
05-26-10, 23:32
Vertical grips have a place...but entirely too many people put them on their rifles because...well, that's what people do.
I go back and forth between having a vert grip on my rifles. At this point in time, I find I get more use out of them with longer rails, where I can get the VG out underneath or just behind where the FSB on a carbine length gas system is. Paul Howe's most recent newsletter said it well.
When attending a course as a new student, learn to shoot your weapon “slick,” with iron sights and not too much fancy gear. Vertical foregrips and new semi-horizontal foregrips force you to put your hand in one position and many times that may not be the most ergonomic position for your body. What happens is that you must learn to shoot an after-market part that someone developed for who knows what. In the end, you need to put your front hand in one spot where you can shoot standing, kneeling and prone and not change your hand with each position. Learn about where to index your firing hand and then position your head/eye in the same spot for each position.
Once you learn to shoot, now figure out where to put your light so your day grip and night grip are one in the same. This will keep your system simple.
DaBears_85
05-26-10, 23:36
Somewhere I read that Reed Knight threw in the vertical grips way back when the military first started buying his rails for M4's. The military came back and asked for more grips because it improved the accuracy of the troops by a surprisingly significant percentage. I like 'em, but I know the trend seems to be away from them, in the civilian population at least.
Do you have a reference for that? I'd be interested to read it.
lethal dose
05-26-10, 23:50
If you ask me, the only time I think one is appropriate is on an sbr so you have a reference point. I'd still rather not have one.
Bipod + VFG (on same weapon) = Mall Ninja:)
no, iam not talking about bipod inside vertical grip.
right now i do not have VG.
i can see it makes some what easier, natural to hold the rifle. but i dont know if i need it.
what is the reason you do i like them?
It seems that the VFG helps the mind to index the location at which the barrel is pointed, making it slightly faster to move from one close range target to the next. But that does not mean it will work for everyone. Try one out to see if you like it, and if not then do not use one.
putting bipod and Vertical grip is too much?
Two different tools for 2 different applications (close range fast target acquisition in target to target movement vs. long range prone accuracy) which calls for 2 different rifles. I would expect your rifle with a bipod to have a 4.5-15 scope or similar and your rifle with the vertical fore grip to have an Eotech or Aimpoint red dot sight.
devildogljb
05-27-10, 02:18
Well I guess the question is what do you use the rifle for. Home defense, target practice or both. And weigh the pros and cons of the grip for your needs. I use a grip pod and it suites my needs of home defense and target shooting. I don't use it all the time when I'm target shooting, but for home defense I put it back on as soon as I get done cleaning my rifle.
Moose-Knuckle
05-27-10, 03:20
VFGs are good to go if one is going to use a rifle for CQB, building clearing, etc. Why would one need a bi-pod to perform these tasks? Two completely different scenarios. As a whole the military and competition crowd inspire one another, note the trend in elongated RIS/hand guards.
The evolution of the VFG has come full circle so to speak. I mean they are nothing new they've been on sub-guns for almost a century now. But in recent times the stubby has gained popularity and now hand stops like that from KAC and of course the AFG by Magpul Dynamics are all the rage.
But to answer the OP question...no you don't NEED one. They are inexpensive so if you have the option to install one on your rifle get one and try it out and see if it helps improve you’re shooting. I like to have one out all the way on a carbine length rail as it aids in stock to shoulder purchase.
I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you speaking of the vert grip that has the bipod that comes out of the bottom of it?
I don't personally like vert grips anymore but the question overall is subjective to the person asking it. The only way to decide is to try it yourself and see how it suits you.
Edit: The reason I don't like them is because I haven't ever been able to find a spot for it on the rail where I've felt completely comfortable with it. After taking it off recently to perform some preventative maint. I found that I feel like I have much better control of the weapon without it. As I said though, it depends on how you feel about it. It's impossible to give you a definitive answer either way.
I'm with you on this one. For me, it is much more comfortable to hold and easier to control the rifle without a vertical grip than with one. Granted, I have only ever tried the stock KAC one and not the myriad other styles offered so I can't say if I'll ever like one enough to have one on permanently or not.
Failure2Stop
05-27-10, 07:28
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=44466&highlight=vertical+grip
The thread has some input from me, and a good link from USMC03 on the matter.
sonrider657
05-27-10, 08:12
I do not particularly like VFG's. I prefer to keep my gun as uncluttered as possible and maintain flexibility in hand positioning.
My go-to gun uses standard handguards.
http://www.christiancarnivore.com/green.jpg
It's funny this thread popped up, as I was thinking about this very thing at the range yesterday. Tale of two cities: M4gery with standard hand guard - SOCOM16 in a Troy MCS with a KAC vertical grip. I was drilling with both rifles over the course of 4-hours and during a break, thought that my hand placement felt better on my M4. Of course, two entirely different guns/calibers, but I thought about it enough to take the grip off the Troy and try without it. I slid a rail panel on the MCS and fired a few mags. Sure enough - felt great, shot great. The only thing I noticed, was that for slow single shots, the grip helped with accuracy, sans using a correct sling for support. Other than that, it's still in my range bag. I'm thinking about trying a hand stop or AFG, but truthfully, I think I added the VFG out of a feeling of need that I clearly didn't...
what is the reason you do i like them?
putting bipod and Vertical grip is too much?
Wow!! my head hurts.:confused:
I have the Tango down VFG that has the space for a pressure pad (for lights or laser on/off) and I have the Magpul AFG...
I recently picked the AFG after a trip to the gun shop and hearing folks in there talk about how much they liked it, then seeing it all over the net and on youtube... I figured eh, 30 bucks, I'll try it out...
After trying it out, I like the VFG better... To me, it feels more comfortable and like I have more control/grip...
Since, its easy enough to put on and take off you may want to see if someone you know or a shop has one you can try out on your rig for a few or atleast test hold theirs to see if you like the feel...
I'm gonna try mine one more time to see if I get any more used to it, if not, its back to the VFG...
DaBears_85
05-27-10, 14:05
http://www.christiancarnivore.com/green.jpg
Quick side note:
What type of riser are you using for that EOTech? I would prefer having the standard handguards on my 6920 due to weight reasons but the front of my 512 doesn't clear the top of the handguards. How do you like the lower 1/3 co-witness it creates?
If you want you can PM me to avoid derailing this thread.
CarlosDJackal
05-27-10, 14:16
Personal preference. I like using a short VFG (I currently use the FUG) because it takes the pressure off my support hand's wrist which I broke as a young teenager.
ForTehNguyen
05-27-10, 14:16
they dont work for everyone, gotta mess around and find out what is best ergonomically and performance wise. I used to hold the magwell but doesnt work as well with some of the more front heavy setups (works fine on my lightweight setup). I started using a Magpul AFG and its growing on me, but it might not work for others.
Vertical grips would only serve as an index for me, so a gear sector hand stop is on my short list, but at this point, the length of my rail has been perfect as I index off of the end of the rail.
lethal dose
05-27-10, 16:09
Vertical grips would only serve as an index for me, so a gear sector hand stop is on my short list, but at this point, the length of my rail has been perfect as I index off of the end of the rail.
This is exactly what I do. Weak side index finger is on the end of my handguard.
kaiservontexas
05-27-10, 16:30
I like my FUG. Bench shooting at a range, no, but out in the woods no bench and moving about while shooting, yes.
grendelbane
05-27-10, 20:13
I don't care for the vertical fore-grip. They just don't seem to fit me. I see some slight utility for a very SBR, but not on a carbine or rifle length barrel.
Aesthetically, they remind me of the old Chauchat MG.
I have a friend who feels other wise, so I get plenty of exposure.
trunkmonkey
05-28-10, 08:51
Never mind all that improving accuracy bullshit.
Plain and simple here it is.
They come in handy when you've got to put down lots of rounds in a short period of time. That handguard will be too hot to hold real quick. So if you don't like the "magazine" hold, walla here comes the vertical grip.
This especially comes into play when your already operating in a 120+ degree environment in the scorching sun.
I've been using a VFG as a hand stop / index more than anything else. I didn't care for the AFG as much as I thought I would considering how I hold the forend. I'd like something like the knights hand stop with less of a rise off of the rail as I use ladder style protectors. In the meantime I am able to quickly index my support hand using the light mount and I get plenty of rearward pressure to keep the gun planted on my shoulder just gripping the forend.
VFG's are also useful if you're running multiple attachments such as lights/lasers and have to alternate between pressure switches and push button tailcaps.
Wilcox Industries has a tricked out VFG that has integrated switches and a bipod. Nice kit but designed for very specific end users.
I've also found VFG's useful if shooting one handed and using the VFG to brace against barricades/cover, otherwise I'm limited to just resting the carbine on top.
Kyle Lamb teaches to use the VFG for support when shooting from unconventional positions as well.
jklaughrey
05-28-10, 09:51
I use my VFG for indexing only. I tried the AFG from Magpul, a very well thought out piece of equipment, but doesn't work for me. I do prefer a lightweight short VFG and use the new Magpul VFG but am leaning more towards using the Gear Sector index nub. Any thoughts?
I use a foregrip on my issue M4 only because there's not enough rail space for me to put my hands out as far as I like. If it's a midlength handguard or longer, you bet your britches I don't need a foregrip or AFG or whatever. Shorter than that and I prefer a foregrip though, usually just behind the front sight of the m4.
jklaughrey
05-28-10, 10:27
When rail space is at a minimum VFG, but longer rails I do like to "stretch out". Either way I guess whatever works best and is optimal for shooter to put rounds on target than it is somewhat moot!
i gave up on carbines, and add on thingy's.
went back to a A3, SP-1 mutt/clone, service ''rifle''.
im happy now.
peabody
The Dumb Gun Collector
05-28-10, 11:46
It has always seemed like a useless doo-dad to me. But better shooters than I disagree.
NCPatrolAR
05-28-10, 12:06
Kyle Lamb teaches to use the VFG for support when shooting from unconventional positions as well.
I dont know how he teaches it; but I've been pushing a VFG against my thigh when doing supine drills.
Here are some examples of how some guys use the VFG:
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT1994.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2374.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT1760.jpg
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2162.jpg
emfourbinator
06-01-10, 12:37
No big love for the VFG here. Just don't feel the need. Carbines
steer just fine for me without 'em.
Failure2Stop
06-01-10, 13:04
Ever do one-handed shooting from cover with a verical edge?
A VFG comes in handy.
There are other examples, but most of them are for specialized tasks and users. The VFG is a tool, whether or not you have an application for that tool is up to you.
dennisuello
06-01-10, 13:15
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2374.jpg
That's the way I use mine, I tried Magpul's AFG, but using the VFG is more comfortable to me. I have smaller hands and AFG made it harder for my thumb to reach the top of the rail.
joe-bananas
06-01-10, 13:39
I can't stand the looks of a VFG, especially those donkey-sized grip-pods.
That said, I use the LaRue and TangoDown short VFGs -- more for a hand stop than as a fore grip. As the photos show in one of the posts above, I only use the outside of my hand against the VFG and don't hold onto it "chicken choker" style.
I have a Magpul AFG, liked it, worked well for me. My son borrowed it and I'll probably never get it back.
It feels awkward now when I shoot with my carbines and mid-lengths that do not have a VFG. They do seem to aid in controllability.
RogerinTPA
06-01-10, 13:45
As many has stated, it's subjective, based on the individual's user preference and application. I use mine the same way as NCPatrolAR does, as an index. It's mounted as far forward as I can comfortably control, pull into my shoulder for recoil mitigation, and drive the gun, which is usually a few inches behind the FSB.
joe-bananas
06-01-10, 13:55
As many has stated, it's subjective, based on the individual's user preference and application. I use mine the same way as NCPatrolAR does, as an index. It's mounted as far forward as I can comfortably control, pull into my shoulder for recoil mitigation, and drive the gun, which is usually a few inches behind the FSB.
Exactly. I can still hear Costa saying "Drive that bitch, Joe-Bananas, drive that bitch!"
I like VFGs I think they have their place like some have already mentioned on ARs with a lot of hardware on the rails. Personally I have really been liking my AFG. It just feels right for me, my hand falls into place on my AFG. It took some getting used to, but now I don't even think about it.
Ever do one-handed shooting from cover with a verical edge?
A VFG comes in handy. .
Hmmm, sounds fun. :D
I have the same feelings as F2S.
I used to just grip the tube, then I went to a hand stop, now I am to the VFG.
With a VFG, I grip it the same as I would a hand stop.
The VFG provides numerous advantages over a hand stop and AFG, IMHO.
It provides a surface that can have force exerted onto it to stabilize the weapon in a variety of conventional and unconventional positions.
-You can hook the VFG on your support side fore arm while shooting Broke back prone and similar positions.
-You can hook the VFG into the corner of a wall, or hood of a car to lock the weapon down and provide a very solid platform.
As F2S said, It is a great thing to have with one handed manipulations to lock the weapon into a position.
It can be used, depending on model, as a storage unit.
It can be used to assist in climbing or possibley stabilizing yourself in different scenarios.
PJ
Somewhere I read that Reed Knight threw in the vertical grips way back when the military first started buying his rails for M4's. The military came back and asked for more grips because it improved the accuracy of the troops by a surprisingly significant percentage. I like 'em, but I know the trend seems to be away from them, in the civilian population at least.
Do you have a reference for that? I'd be interested to read it.
Never mind all that improving accuracy bullshit.
Feb 2009 issue of SAR Vol 12 #5 - Interview with C. Reed Knight
He recalled being told by the US Army that the addition of the forward vertical grip to the M16 did more for hit probability than had been achieved in the entire 1980s Advanced Combat Rifle program (about $300m spent!).
I dont know how he teaches it; but
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/_EDT2374.jpg
That is how I use a vertical grip too. I have a Tango Down QD stubby on my 11.5" BCM upper, only not quite as far forward. I'm built like a beagle (stocky 5'7"), so I had to move it back an inch or two.
Jay
My vertical grip is my bi-pod. At least on my MCS stocked M1A Bush rifle.
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