View Full Version : J-frames, thoughts?
gtmtnbiker98
05-27-10, 08:57
Okay, not a big revolver fan and definitely not a .380 fan, but I'm in the market for a decent pocket gun for the summer months. I am not interested in the latest .380 whiz bang autos, I simply don't trust them.
I have found that even my P2000SK in an MTAC is simply too much during the hot and humid days and am looking for something to simply put in the pocket. With that said, I'm looking for a good J-frame. My wife owns a 637 which is nice, but I'm looking for a centennial framed revolver. The 642s are nice, but am curious to learn what other's are carrying.
I have previously owned an MP340 and shooting .357s through it was rather, shall I say, unpleasant. As a result, I carried .38 +P in it and since that was my previous experience, I'm leaning towards another .38 +P. Paying the MP340 premium to only carry .38 kind of defeats the purpose. I really regret selling the MP340 and like all things, you learn from experience. I need another J-frame! I prefer the reliability of a revolver over the pocket autos.
Let's hear some collective thoughts and opinions. TIA
I've carried a pre-lock 642 as a BUG for years. Love the gun. I found it used at a pawn shop table at a gun show, picked it up for a reasonable price, then had some minor action work done by Nelson Ford. He smoothed the trigger up, polished the trigger face, and chamfered the cylinder holes. Then I popped a pair of LG-405 Crimson Trace lasergrips on it, and it's good to go. With the laser, I can reliably make headshots out to about 15 yards or so (albeit on a stationary target), and the cushioned backstrap makes shooting the gun for extended periods less painful.
I don't see the point in a .357 snubby. You're not going to get any appreciable lethality bonus from a .357 over a .38 in such a short barrel, just more recoil and flash/blast. I carry 147-gr wadcutters in my J-frame, but a lot of people swear by the Cor-Bon DPX or the special 'snubby' Gold Dots.
A lightweight alloy .38 J-frame is the gun that goes nearly anywhere. Is it the most effective fighting gun in the world? Of course not. It's a five-shot snubby in a marginal caliber. But it's ALWAYS there, and it ALWAYS goes bang when I want/need it to do so. Train with it, practice drawing and engaging targets, as well as 'speed' (ha ha) reloads, and it'll do what needs to be done in a pinch.
John_Wayne777
05-27-10, 09:17
Some previous M4C J frame discussions:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13413
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=50062
https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-29412.html
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=639624
When I pocket carry, I use a 638 bodyguard. I just kind of like to option of being able to cock the hammer back if I need more precision. I personally think it is hard to bet a j-frame for summer carry with exellent reliablity.
gtmtnbiker98
05-27-10, 09:27
Some previous M4C J frame discussions:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13413
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=50062
https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-29412.html
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=639624Sorry about that, JW! I did a brief search and didn't find that many. My search fu needs some tuning. Thanks and again, sorry for a duplicate and/or repetitive thread.
Have you looked at the Ruger LCR? It was just announced in .357Magnum last week. A little heavier that a 340PD, with slightly larger grip that should make shooting .38+p's a bit easier. Smoothest factory, non-custom trigger I have ever shot on a small wheelgun.
gtmtnbiker98
05-27-10, 09:47
Have you looked at the Ruger LCR? It was just announced in .357Magnum last week. A little heavier that a 340PD, with slightly larger grip that should make shooting .38+p's a bit easier. Smoothest factory, non-custom trigger I have ever shot on a small wheelgun.
Yes, I've seen them and dry fired one a couple of times. It felt cheap and I can embrace the idea of a polymer pistol, but a polymer revolver when compared to a S&W airweight is kind of senseless. When it comes to revolvers, it has to say S&W on the side. Just a personal preference. Thanks for sharing, though.
I hear ya, I remember when the idea of a plastic autoloader was just plain crazy. Look where we are now.
I have a 642, did a little trigger work and installed set of CT laser grips, the smallest ones they make
The CTs made a believer out of a buddy of mine yesterday at the range.
you can dump a fist sized group at 7 yards one handed very fast
I carry 135g Gold Dots for short barrels, yesterday we were using the 158g+p Federal loads
I like the enclosed hammer, can be shot through a jacket pocket or a purse if you are a woman..
I have a Kahr PM9 coming for T&E, anxious to put them against each other.
I live in Texas, and shorts/tshirt is the most I want to wear in the summer!
Hi, If I can't carry my HK P2000SK, I go for my S&W 642-2. My 642-2 has been with me for just about everywhere legal, and with practice can be very accurate and lethal at its intended distances. Handy, reliable, easy to clean, accurate (with regular practice), and so, so easy to conceal. My CCW dream come true. Now I just need to practice fast reloads more :-). Good Luck, Jess
have both a mod 60 and 36 both steel frame 38. I do think that having the 357 chambering is pretty useless except for the fact in an emergency you could at least shoot 357's if that was all you could get a hold of. With the scandium or alloy frame and a good pocket holster, they should be pretty easy to carry. my steel ones ride ankle holsters very comfortably. I use bianchi speed strips for reloads on my person and if wearing a loose jacket a speed loader in an outside pocket. While I have literally dozens of pistols and have used /owned pretty much every modern auto at one time or another, I always find myself ending up using the j-frame for
"everyday carry"
I found my 642 too bulky to conceal anywhere on my body other than my ankle, I loved the gun, but it just sat in my safe and I never used it, so I sold it. I now find myself using my LCP when I am dressed light. I was skeptical about the .380 pocket pistols myself, but after shooting one and doing my own tests with it, I trust mine to save my life, also with round capacity and reload speed, I find it hard to beat. Don't get me wrong I love Smithys, they make the best revolvers IMO, and if I was able to carry one comfortably I would. The .380 has come a long way, for 7 yard self defence it works really well.
If you can, try wearing a 642 or somthing like it first, to see if you like it, I thought it was too "thick" and no more easy to hide than my Glock IWB
My .02
Good luck with your decision, your life could depend on it.
Beat Trash
05-27-10, 14:55
I really want to love the J-frame revolvers, especially the 642. I carried one as a backup gun while at work for a few years. I ended up selling it off.
A couple of years ago, I bought another 642 (no-lock). With the 135 gr Gold Dot ammo, it's a handful, but manageable.
The problem is that I also own a Kahr PM9. For pocket carry, I find that the PM9 works better for me. Easier to carry, easier to shoot effectively, quicker to reload.
I don't use ankle holsters. If I did, it'd be the J-frame, no doubt.
Where the 642 shines over the PM9 is that since the grip is bigger, it's easier for me to grab from a pocket while in a hurry.
I like my 642 enough that I do not intend to sell it off. If I do, I know I will regret it. I found that out once, the hard way.
I have an M37 DAO bobbed hammer no-lock - it was a special run for RSI, I think. I can keep all 5 shots in the circle of an IALEFI Q out to 10 yards shooting pretty fast. I carry it in a PCS No See Um. I just carried it and a speed loader on a tough 8 hour hike.
LandCruiser
05-27-10, 15:14
Okay, not a big revolver fan and definitely not a .380 fan, but I'm in the market for a decent pocket gun for the summer months. I am not interested in the latest .380 whiz bang autos, I simply don't trust them.
I have found that even my P2000SK in an MTAC is simply too much during the hot and humid days and am looking for something to simply put in the pocket. With that said, I'm looking for a good J-frame. My wife owns a 637 which is nice, but I'm looking for a centennial framed revolver. The 642s are nice, but am curious to learn what other's are carrying.
I have previously owned an MP340 and shooting .357s through it was rather, shall I say, unpleasant. As a result, I carried .38 +P in it and since that was my previous experience, I'm leaning towards another .38 +P. Paying the MP340 premium to only carry .38 kind of defeats the purpose. I really regret selling the MP340 and like all things, you learn from experience. I need another J-frame! I prefer the reliability of a revolver over the pocket autos.
Let's hear some collective thoughts and opinions. TIA
I often carry a pre-lock S&W 642 with a CT grip on it. It was important for it to be pre-lock and my BUG had to be a revolver. I will often times have it in a jacket pocket. I can manipulate the gun in any direction I need without the threat having any idea that gun is pointing at them. Being a revolver with internal hammer allows me to be able to shoot inside of the pocket without jamming. There is a high chance that a small auto's slide might not cycle fully in a pocket. As far as the summer months go....it is small, light and powerful. I have it IWB most of the time, but ankle and pocket carry are also choices.
Some previous M4C J frame discussions:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13413
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=50062
https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-29412.html
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=639624
My thoughts, read these threads and close this one.
thopkins22
05-27-10, 15:28
I did a brief search and didn't find that many. My search fu needs some tuning.
Google often gives better results than the engine here.
In the future simply go to Google and do your search like this.
J-frame(or whatever) site:m4carbine.net
My "de locked" 642 is a constant companion. I to prefer a revolver in the pocket over an auto loader. I did the Kahr PM9 thing for a while had two of them. Neither gave me the level reliability that I felt comfortable with.
Since 1978, I've worn and in some cases worn out, a S&W M36, then a Centennial (2nd year production, NIB when I got it), a 640, 442 and 642. Always as a second gun, at times partner to another J-frame. Except for a couple of overseas trips, the J-frame has been with me as a second gun.
Started with a Jackass Leather ankle rig and a Safariland IWB (instant collapse version). Moved to quality pocket carry, armpit and ankle holsters. These days, a 442 with Crimson Trace grip, in an Alessi (the Gold Standard in ankle rigs) ankle holster is a daily companion and second gun.
Loads have included: Black Hills .38 Spl +P, CorBon, Federal Ny-Clad and SWC-HP.
642s or 442s are constant companions, often in pairs. Recommended.
Current ammo choices are the Black Hills 125gr GDHP +P or Speer 135gr GDHP +P. Spare ammo on speed strips.
After getting really good with my Glock 19 over the past couple years I feel very underarmed with a J frame. One of my current training goals is to get my skill with the J frame up to where I feel more confident with it, I am finding the long DA trigger very difficult to master.
After getting really good with my Glock 19 over the past couple years I feel very underarmed with a J frame. One of my current training goals is to get my skill with the J frame up to where I feel more confident with it, I am finding the long DA trigger very difficult to master.
Try lots dry fire, and ball and dummy drills in your live fire.
I've had a 642 since they first came out; it now has the CT grips and rides in a front pocket in uniform or off-duty. I picked up a spare last year just in case. I also have a Ruger SP101 in .357 but haven't used it much in a while.
Let me know if you want to shoot one of them, maybe we can get together at the club.
gtmtnbiker98
05-27-10, 18:20
I've had a 642 since they first came out; it now has the CT grips and rides in a front pocket in uniform or off-duty. I picked up a spare last year just in case. I also have a Ruger SP101 in .357 but haven't used it much in a while.
Let me know if you want to shoot one of them, maybe we can get together at the club.
I may take you up on that, you shooting on the 6th?
SeriousStudent
05-27-10, 20:14
I agree with Beat Trash. If I sell a pistol, and end up buying another just like it later on, that teaches even someone as dense as myself.
I do have a 642 with a set of CT laser grips. I do front pocket carry without an issue - I'm a big boy.
I did buy a used Model 60 in .357 that I use as a practice gun. I have one of the old Bianchi Lightning grips on it, which mimics a 628. I call it my "pocket rocket", and it stays in the parka pocket in the winter.
Like others, I like the results from the Speer Short Barrel Gold Dots. Very accurate in both pistols.
brushy bill
05-27-10, 20:48
A no lock J frame, a Colt Cobra (parts availability and potential repairs a concern), or both will always be a part of my armament.
The S&W 638 is hard to beat.
:cool:
My thoughts on J-frames? The internal-hammer versions remain a top choice in defense weapons for certain applications.
I generally always carry a G23 or G30, IWB, when I go out.
But there are situations/scenarios where also carrying an internal hammer J-frame revolver, in the coat pocket, offers SUPREME tactical advantage.
Taking a walk on a forest trail, dark city streets, or on a remote strip of beach, for example, especially in the evening. There may be passersby who are friendly and well meaning, or passersby who may not appear threatening at first, but when they are immediately in front of you may stop, feign interest in asking for help, or the time, or ask for a "light" while they check you out.
This is a case where only the assailant knows what is about to happen. And it could be a perfectly innocent encounter, OR the beginning of your worst nightmare.
In such a situation, it may be very unlikely that you could draw a holstered weapon from under your clothing and fire quickly enough to react to a threat initiated by the other. But, with an internal-hammer J-frame in your hand and still in your coat pocket, ready to fire, you could launch a few rounds instantly right through the coat, without even having to pull the revolver out of your pocket.
In such a situation, if you felt even a possible threat from oncoming persons, you could hold the gun in your hand, in your pocket and be able to fire instantly right through the coat, if need be... or not fire at all, if no threat actually presented itself. Even if an assailant got the "jump" on you (as is easy for them to do since only they know what's about to happen), you could react INSTANTLY, not 2 to 3 precious seconds later. The lack of that time lag could easily tilt the odds in your favor.
The internal hammer J-frame in a coat pocket gives supreme tactical advantage in a variety of potentially dangerous situations because it can be concealed even while it is being fired! And the beauty is that your weapon never need even be visual or presented if the potential threat does not occur.
For this reason, I will always want to have a 640 or 642 in addition to larger, semi-auto defense pistols.
Though many seem to like the ultra light weight snubbies, I don't like them as while they may be a little more comfortable to carry, they are much less desireable to shoot. And shooting is what they are for!
I like the 640, myself, as it is heavy and absorbs the recoil from the .357 round quite nicely for it's size, and is especially comfortable to fire with the Pachmayr rubber grips! Chronograph studies show that the .357 caliber really does not lose a lot of effectiveness with the short barrel. My preferred ammo in the 640 is Speer .357 magnum 135 gr. Gold Dot.
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/zmonki/S%20and%20W%20Revos/640_LF2677.jpg
The 642 is a reasonable alternative to the 640; lighter in weight, chambered in .38 spl. My choice of ammo in this is the .38 cal version of the Speer 135 gr. Gold Dot loading.
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/zmonki/S%20and%20W%20Revos/642_L1567.jpg
No lock 442 & 642 are available as well as the model 40. I carry a no lock 442 and accuracy is there for a CCW gun. I'd rather carry a 45 ACP and I'm still working on doing that in the heat. Front pocket carry with a pocket holster and a reload in the other pocket.
When I "go Lite" I have a Ruger LCR with CTC grip. Love it, shoots like a dream and disappears in the pocket. YMMV....:D
Not what you wanted to hear .... but I will share my thoughts anyway since my rationale and experience sort of mimics yours.
I previously had a M&P340 as my pocket gun. It was light weight but was still a fairly large package in my pocket. I won't say folks know what was in my pocket but I never forget it was there either. Even with CT grips I never felt very confident with my accuracy with it. Yes, that's a training issue ... I know that.
I had never been a fan of the .380acp but after handling and shooting a LCP I bought one. After proving itself reliable (several hundred rounds of varying ammo types) it became my pocket gun and the J was sold. I found the LCP to be quite accurate at close ranges and it was more pleasant to shoot than the J even with defensive loads. More pleasant means more willing to practice.
Eventually I had the chance to handle a 238. I bought it. Right away I figured out I shot this as well as any of my full sized pistols inside 15yds and was still confident at further distances. I even managed to get just over 50% hits on steel plates @ 50yrds while playing around (a couple of mags fired). Once this gun proved reliable it has become my pocket or discreet AIWB gun when I don't want to carry full size. I am very confident with this gun. It's accurate, it has a great SA trigger, it has real NS, and feels great with VZ grips.
The LCP will be sold/traded soon. I don't need both.
Now, that prob doesn't convince you of the merits of a .380acp ... but to me I am more comfortable carrying a slightly less powered cartridge I KNOW I can make good hits with than a slightly more powered cartridge I'm not confident with.
YMMV.
I carry a 642 or two daily, both on duty as a BUG/s and off duty.
I often carry in a weak side pocket in a Nemesis holster, or ankle carry, depends on dress and what I am up to that day.
I don't have any issues with pocket carry, nor do I have issues with shootability of the J frame. I find that in these modes of carry that the snubby carries better, for me, than a pistol, and is much easier to draw in a quickly, especially if I need to get a grip on the gun in a hurry.
Also, I much prefer throwing +P .38s downrange as opposed to .380 bullets, maybe I have just seen too many .380 shootings where the shootee was not impressed, I dunno.
I have had several Kel Tecs and an LCP, none of which were even remotely close to as reliable as my snubs.
Currently I'm loading the 135gr Gold Dot, since I found a case in stock during the great ammo drought, but I'm also happy with DPX, 158gr LSWCHP, and the Buffalo Bore wadcutter loading.
I may take you up on that, you shooting on the 6th?
Probably not, I've got a family function that afternoon, but hit me on email when you know you'll be at the club.
arizona98tj
05-29-10, 21:17
Up until about 8 months ago, I as carrying a Mod 637 more often than not for CCW. It was either in a holster or front pocket.
After picking up a Kahr PM9 and running it long enough at the range to prove it was reliable, the 637 now spends a lot of time on the top shelf of the safe.
For me, the PM9 shoots better and I could put 2 or 3 boxes through it during a practice session without any issues. After a box or maybe two in the 637, I was done. Practice with the PM9 is much more fun which means I do it more often. The fact that it likes the same range ammo as my XD9 makes for less work at the reloading bench too.
After getting really good with my Glock 19 over the past couple years I feel very underarmed with a J frame. One of my current training goals is to get my skill with the J frame up to where I feel more confident with it, I am finding the long DA trigger very difficult to master.
There are several good smiths who specialize in S&W revolvers. Get the action tuned up and the trigger face polished, and you'll be surprised how much nicer it becomes. A set of LG-405 CT grips is also mandatory (IMHO) on a J-frame.
gtmtnbiker98
05-30-10, 17:35
Well, to follow-up, I am going with the 642, will be picking one up this week. Thanks for the replies.
Well, to follow-up, I am going with the 642, will be picking one up this week. Thanks for the replies.
I regularly carry a 642 with CT LG405 grips as my only CCW. Two quotes come to mind...
"Friends don't let friends carry mouse-guns" (Ayoob?) :eek:
and...
"The mouse-gun in your hand beats the heck out of the .45 at home in your nightstand." (Author = unknown) :)
Something to consider is a Raven Concealment (or similar 'thin' Kydex) IWB holster.
Pocket carry works with the right clothing (Old Navy cargo pants...older style with very deep front pockets), but as others have pointed out, while it's not obvious 'what's' in your pocket, it's very obvious that you have 'something' substantial in your pocket.
Some might consider an IWB holster to be over-kill for a J-frame, but I've found that the 642 pretty much disappears under very lightweight clothing when I use my Raven holster. YMMV.
-Rainman
gtmtnbiker98
05-30-10, 19:46
I already have a Nemisis and this will be my house pocket gun and will not be my primary carry, just a supplement. My P2KSK 9mm is my primary and will remain primary.
I have a 640-1 like the one that DHart posted a pic of. It's reliable and your ammo options are good too.
I hear you about that long trigger pull. A little practice and you'll be just fine with it.
cmoore
The S&W 642 only weighs 15oz empty and is an excellent gun for pocket carry or in an ankle holster. Makes for a great BUG with a couple of speed-loaders or speed strips loaded with Speer Gold Dot HP. Some times the pocket gun is the only one you can carry due to clothing attire limitations, etc.
I have seen it on sale at Gander Mountain for $449 a couple of time. I prefer the Smith over the plastic Ruger LCR.
I've been carrying a 642 in my front pocket pretty often for about three years or so. I put wood grips on it because the rubber grips made it a bitch to draw from my pocket (and I just don't like rubber grips in general). It's not a lot of fun to shoot +Ps through it but it's accurate enough. I carry it with 158gr +P LSWCHP. When I run out of those I'll probably switch to the Gold Dot 135gr. I don't have any problems concealing it or drawing it from my pocket. It's light enough to carry comfortably, I don't think I'd want it any lighter for actually shooting.
The lock has been taken out.
http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/tt176/keggius/smithbuck.jpg
I have a 60, no lock 442 and a 340 M&P CT. I really want to pick up a pro series 640 and the 43C (.22 centennial). The J Frames are by far my most favorite guns. I carry one at all times.
gtmtnbiker98
05-31-10, 19:45
Yes, I can see where these J-frames can become rather addicting. Just took delivery of a brand new 642-1 (no lock). I helped my FFL out a few weeks ago and he gave it to me for $211.00 out the door, a 50% discount. I just couldn't say no, but felt rather guilty since I helped him as a friend and did not expect anything in return.
So, out of all the guns I own, this is the absolute best deal I've ever received and I really like this revolver not to mention, the screaming deal. I'm pleased.
Shot it while at my friends house and ran some +P through it. Quite manageable and pretty accurate at ~10-yards.
SeriousStudent
05-31-10, 19:54
Wow! That is a great deal, he certainly hooked you up! That's a terrific little revolver, without the lock.
With the money you saved, you can buy a set of CT laser grips or half a case of carry ammo.
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