View Full Version : any of you go back to the 20'' rifle ?
howdy...
i've been playing around with my SP-1kinda/mutt/clone.. :)
shes a 1-7 government profile barrel. shoots everything very very well.
i love the softer cycle of the action.
i've of course putt the A1 stock on her, [man i love the A1 stocks !]
the triangular handguards are great ! i do think stoner got it right !!
i just love the bloody thing !:)
peabody
Outlander Systems
05-28-10, 11:24
I've actually considered making my next addition to fam a 20"...
I like the weight, balance and feel of a gov't profile 20"
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q223/db556/long3.jpg
This one I put together with a Sabre 20" A4ish barrel and a Larue 12" rail, Cav Arms C1 stock, Leupold VX-3, rest of the parts are pretty standard. Light comes on and off for night time varmint hunting. I've used it in a 3 gun match.
I have an A2 as well that I like shooting.
Realistically, you don't gain much over a 16" barrel aside from maybe 100-150fps more velocity, in a larger package. But the recoil pulse is nice.
Plus they are long, so if you are instructing a new shooter, there is a bit more safety factor involved. Good bench guns for basic marksmanship training too.
Haven't gone back to the rifle, but have always enjoyed having a rifle of some configuration as part of the collection.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4011/4647408941_57b136c19a_o.jpg
I have been looking at getting a A2. Mainly because thats what I carried for the first half of my career and first trip to Iraq.
now thats what i'm talkin about !!
you fellers have some very nice rig's there.
i like the extra velocity of a 20'' , and with the A1 stock, she's not really that much longer than my bushy 16'' carbine.
weight is very close to the same, and of course the added advantage of the longer rifle sight's.
mine has the A1 detachable carry handel, A1 grip, and three prong flash hider.triangular handguards.
like i said, she's a SP-1 mutt/clone.ha. i know she's not PC from any era, or particlular time frame, but 90% of people who see my rifle say wow !! nice M16 !!
ha.
but all in all, for here on the farm, the word i'm going to use is ''usefull''
i do like the fact that i can scope her, or putt a aimpoint red dot on.
it's the perfect platform for ''me''
it's one heck of a deer killing machine, !!!
i love the hornady 75 grainers, and barns 70 grain solid copper tsx's for deer.
[and anything else]
ha.
she's got the rock/river two stage trigger. and boy !! i can light matches with her !!!
yep, i just love the bloody thing .
it took a long time, lots of thoughts/ideals, gobs of money, trying differant things out, from carbines , grips/stock's/handguards/barrel's etc.
and this is where i've arrived,
sure wishes i'ed of just bought a model 1 sales or del-ton rifle kit in the first place !!!
live n' learn.
having said all that, i still getting a few parts together for a middy dissipator, model 605 clone.
but this is my ''rifle'' and she's mine.lol.
peabody
Jay Cunningham
05-28-10, 13:04
Honestly I've recently been considering one.
I still use my Colt m16A1 at work and I have an A4 rifle in the works...
B
As a side note,
A 20" gun wouldn't be my first choice in AR's for much. I added the above rifle to my collection out of a "What don't I have?" line of thinking. Realistically, a 16" mid-length is about ideal for general purpose as I can think of.
I'm thinking about switching to a UBR stock for my gun above.
JeepDriver
05-28-10, 13:44
Gone back to, no. Still use my carbines the most.
But I have plenty of love for my 20"
http://fototime.com/B8A6730717EBC7F/standard.jpg
Blankwaffe
05-28-10, 13:45
Ive always had a rifle as that was one of the first AR's I owned.Currently still have my old 20" M15A2 NM.
I also have 20" SPR uppers on collapsible stock carbine lowers setup as C7A2 replicas that I use as general purpose do all rifles...which has become my favorite configuration overall.
I still love my carbines too though.
I recently added one, 20" BCM, standard hg's, GG&G light mount on fsb(left side) carbine buffer and IMOD stock, KAC 600m rear and Aimpoint. Considering an ACOG (TA 11J-G)
http://www.4scopes.com/3_5x35.htm
It's a smooth shooting stick, love it, not heavy.
SeriousStudent
05-28-10, 15:12
I do have what is basically an "A4-ish" rifle. I had a bunch of spare parts laying around, and a ban-era Colt 20" barrel. Plus a Colt carrying handle from a 6920 just sitting in a parts box.
So I sent the barrel to Steve at Adco, who did his customary awesome thread job. (Great job, Steve. It looks perfect!)
I'm debating buying a used KAC RAS, just to complete the look.
It is a nice bit of nostalgia. I was in the FMF when we transitioned from the M-16A1 to the M-16A2. I much preferred the A2.
I'll have to shoot a photo, and put it in the picture thread.
Honestly, if you want a rifle, most of us could probably build one from spare parts. I think I bought an LMT A2 stock from Grant, and a set of handguards off the EE.
A 20" MSAR AUG clone is my next rifle purchase.
I have played with a few 20 inch carbines, what I like about them is the rifle length gas tubes.
I pretty much find everything else better on the 16 inch variations.
I do have a 18 inch mid length profile though. its for reaching out a little further.
Got into some "fun" service rifle matches over the past year and was the perfect excuse to go back to my 1985/6 ish Colt A2. My first black rifle! The only thing I changed on it was replacing the A2 length stock with an A1 (more my size...)
5129
...........The only thing I changed on it was replacing the A2 length stock with an A1 (more my size...)
This is something I've been debating for awhile. The CAV Arms A1 length A2 stock is most likely what I'll go with if and when it happens. The A2 stock length works for me, but I was always a bit more comfortable when shooting the M16A1.
I've thought about adding a 20" to the stable but I can't decide A2 or A4. I also thought maybe a mini A4, similiar but more practical. Cavarms A1 stock, 16 BCM light weight midlength with a TA 33, decisions, decisions.
My next Purchase will be a 20 inch upper to make a Bit of a scope set up and Bipod for prone shooting.
ghostman1960
05-28-10, 18:23
I have been thinking about buying my old 6601 back from my brother. I don't know if he will be open to the idea though.
Gotta love that 20"! Got a pair of A2s and a nifty A1, plus a bone stock SP1. They all shoot like crazy
and keep me a perpetual happy camper. Stoner's original is probably still the greatest.:)
I busted out the A2 and deuce gear last weekend and shot a two hour session.
Gotta love that 20"! Got a pair of A2s and a nifty A1, plus a bone stock SP1. They all shoot like crazy
and keep me a perpetual happy camper. Stoner's original is probably still the greatest.:)
AAA+++++++ :)
I busted out the A2 and deuce gear last weekend and shot a two hour session.
My pic on page one was taken just yesterday morning. Had fun putting 240 rds down range.
I've thought about adding a 20" to the stable but I can't decide A2 or A4. I also thought maybe a mini A4, similiar but more practical. Cavarms A1 stock, 16 BCM light weight midlength with a TA 33, decisions, decisions.
thats half the fun. :)
1371USMCFL
05-28-10, 20:52
USMC still loves the M16's. Here's my issued M16A4
http://m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=5130&stc=1&d=1275097887
This a BCM 20" govt. contour with KAC Rail,Cav arms A1 stock with A2 buttplate,Bushnell Elite 3200 3-10 x 40mm.I also have a colt carry handle that I use more than the scope.I love it.It is in the first pic.The 2nd pic is my BCM lightweight middy with Troy drop-in rail,Miad grip,BCM M4 stock,Streamlight TLR-1s,KAC vfg and Colt carry handle.
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa176/jeffy351/006-1.jpg
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa176/jeffy351/006.jpg
I busted out the A2 and deuce gear last weekend and shot a two hour session.
You may have just motivated me enough to go dig up some duece gear and put it all back together. :D
Captains1911
05-29-10, 00:26
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e106/Captains1911/paper%20punchers/BCM20.jpg
wow, you boy's have some mighty fine looking rigs there !!!
very very nice.
peabody
Jay Cunningham
05-29-10, 11:25
My prediction is that the new Fall fashion trend is going to be iron sights and 20" rifles.
LonghunterCO
05-29-10, 12:20
The Op suggests that we ever left the 20" AR?;)
SeriousStudent
05-29-10, 12:23
I busted out the A2 and deuce gear last weekend and shot a two hour session.
I still have an old cotton H harness, mag pouches that are zip-tied to the belt, butt pack with a first aid kit on the side, nasty old leather Ka-Bar sheath, leather 1911 holster on the right side...... It's in a big carboard box with a pair of jungle boots, slant-pocket cammies, etc...
I look at it every couple of years, and tell myself "Yeah, I should pitch that."
But it's not costing me anything to keep it, either. Some things are worth keeping, just for sentimental reasons, I guess.
It's probably why I have the A2 rifle. After having the manual of arms and operation literally beaten into me, it's one of those "automatic pilot" things.
Dammit, now you guys have me wanting to track down a Colt lower for the stupid thing. ;)
A buddy told me I should sell the old poplin cammies on ebay. Maybe I'll do that.
just built a 20" with a del-ton 20" light contour barrel then put a kac m5 ris on it. with the exception of the light barrel reminds me of the A4 I was issued in Iraq. with the light contour it feels lighter and handier than some of my heavy barrel 16 inch guns.
The Op suggests that we ever left the 20" AR?;)
ha, :) not me !!!
peabody
My prediction is that the new Fall fashion trend is going to be iron sights and 20" rifles.
:) would'nt be nothing wrong with that ! :)
condition 1
05-29-10, 14:28
Kind of fond of my Colt 6600 H-Bar, I've had it since 88, It just feels right, I have a Leupold M8 6 Tactical on Arms mount and rings, The scope make long range shooting a little more fun...
Had ADCO reprofiling a 20" BCM to light wt
Honestly I've recently been considering one.
Me too, something about a USMC, 20", M-16A4 clone topped with an ACOG really appeals to me...;)
The only thing I would change is to use an A1 stock.
Jay Cunningham
05-29-10, 22:00
Had ADCO reprofiling a 20" BCM to light wt
Cool man...
While I must admit, my 20" rifle doesn't make it to the range very often, it certainly has a place in my heart. I learned on an A2, and was issued an A2 and/or M203, for most of military time. The first AR I ever purchased, was an HBAR A2, in 1995.
While it doesn't get the attention it deserves, here is that ole' A2, only now it wears an A4 upper, with gov't profile barrel. Although I do love the soft shooting and familiar handling characteristics, it is just a bit long, when working out of a car, which my current needs dictate. :(
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/jimbo45/100_2136.jpg
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-30-10, 01:33
I think an AR needs a 20 inch barrel to get all the performance you can out of a 223 cartridge. They just look more balanced. They give you more room to bayonette people. It's a win-win all around....
I have a stripped upper and lower receiver that I want to build into a 20" barrel configuration. Got my handguards ready to go and my LPK. Next step in an A2 stock assembly and the lower will be completely finished. Those damn barrels are pricey...
I think an AR needs a 20 inch barrel to get all the performance you can out of a 223 cartridge. They just look more balanced. They give you more room to bayonette people. It's a win-win all around....
i agree !!! :)
more room to bayonet people ?!?!
lol !!!
My next build will be an 18" heavy barrel with a sully stock.
Beat Trash
05-30-10, 13:01
For several years, I've owned a Colt 6601 H-Bar 20" that has the A2 upper. I can't quite talk my self into selling it off, as It's a fun gun to shoot.
I have played around with the idea of sending the gun out and having the barrel milled to A2 or even A1 diameter though.
When I was in the Marines, we were issued A1 rifles. The A2's were just starting to come on line. If I ever get the money to build a fun gun, it would be a A1 clone, but with a 1/7 barrel.
I personally think the 20" rifles are good guns. They would serve well for those who do not need a gun for CQB or for around vehicles. But for my needs, the 16" works better for me.
I started with a 20" SP1, and bought 2 6601"s. I still one one of the 6601"s. So I started with 20" guns. To answer the OP's question, I didn't go back to the 20" gun, but I haven't quite let go either.
just an fyi for those that might want/need to know- if you use your 20" rifle for dcm/nra service rifle matches it is match legal to have the a2 stock replaced with an a1
RioGrandeGreen
05-30-10, 15:12
I saw this in the Sportmans Guide catalog. What do you guys think about doing a build with it?
FXP-169396 - Used U.S. Military Colt® M16A1 Parts Kit
$599.97
http://image.sportsmansguide.com/dimage/169396m2_ts.JPG?cell=300,300&cvt=jpeg
I saw this in the Sportmans Guide catalog. What do you guys think about doing a build with it?
FXP-169396 - Used U.S. Military Colt® M16A1 Parts Kit
$599.97
http://image.sportsmansguide.com/dimage/169396m2_ts.JPG?cell=300,300&cvt=jpeg
dang?! now that looks interesting !?
I'm in the middle of saving up for my next rig and I'm going back and fourth between 18" and 20"...
It will be used mostly for benchrest. Mostly 75-100 Yards; can't see much past 300 as I can't find any ranges or areas to shoot that has a longer range than that It will be scoped, my eyes are not what they used to be...
I've been looking to go back to a 20", but mainly so I can shoot service rifle. I'm finding out that barrels for precision shooting competitions are quite expensive. LOL.
I've been looking to go back to a 20", but mainly so I can shoot service rifle. I'm finding out that barrels for precision shooting competitions are quite expensive. LOL.
yes, some of those barrel's are real pricy !
but i really enjoy my plain jane mutt, :)
peabody
Don Robison
05-31-10, 22:00
I wouldn't say I've went back to one, but my last built was a 16A4ish clone(M4 upper with Sabre barrel) and a Cav Arms A1 stocked lower.
Love my Colt....I'm going to build another, lightweight version, pencil barrel, etc. I mainly use 16" guns, but this is a real tack driver. Not pictured is the bipod w/pod attachment. The Acog is for different applications if need be.
DD lite rail, 2 stage Giselle trigger, Leopold Veri x in American Defense mount, Smith flash, Acog in American Defense mount w/dr optic.
http://m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=5162&d=1275408089
Failure2Stop
06-01-10, 16:20
Go back to a 20" gun?
NEVER!
Seriously though, I do enjoy them if I am not wearing armor.
Go back to a 20" gun?
NEVER!
Seriously though, I do enjoy them if I am not wearing armor.
i have a buddy, down in arizona, says his rifle is a 20'' barrel, middy gas, and sixposition stock, standard hanguards,A2,
,.... says its fantastic, i'ed love to see it.
thinking about it ? ya ,it would be ''fugly'' but charm of it's own, ha.
peabody
Failure2Stop
06-01-10, 17:16
i have a buddy, down in arizona, says his rifle is a 20'' barrel, middy gas, and sixposition stock, standard hanguards,A2,
,.... says its fantastic, i'ed love to see it.
thinking about it ? ya ,it would be ''fugly'' but charm of it's own, ha.
peabody
20" middie gas?
:confused:
That doesn't make sense.
Originally posted by peabody:
any of you go back to the 20'' rifle ?
Go back to the 20" rifle? I never left it.:D
Colt A2
http://www.box.net/shared/static/ii1clff612.jpg
Colt A2 HBAR
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/157/colta2hbar01framedwy0.jpg
Colt A4ish
http://www.box.net/shared/static/sfgcpvy3x9.jpg
Colt HBAR
http://www.box.net/shared/static/40v1m24jx7.jpg
Noveske HBAR
http://www.box.net/shared/static/mla3p170ls.jpg
Colt HBAR
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/9572/shootingcoatandrifle01resizedframedmn6.jpg
Competing With the Past
More than thirty years ago, the article “AR-15 Match Loads” by Al Miller was published in Handloader magazine. As you would expect, the article chronicles Al Miller’s endeavors in developing accurate loads for the AR-15. The AR-15 he used in developing his match loads was an A1 version. (Did I mention this was done 30 years ago?)
http://www.box.net/shared/static/8cjkp7clex.jpg
Even though the M16A2 replaced the M16A1 as “Standard A” for the U.S. Military in November of 1983, the A1 has several characteristics that many people still find desirable today. Foremost would probably be the light weight of the rifle, which is due in no small part to the A1 barrel. The A1 barrel weighs several ounces less than an A2 government profile barrel (and one pound, 4 ounces less than an HBAR). Comparing the profile of an A1 barrel to an A2 barrel, we see that the weight reduction occurs in the area from the gas block to the muzzle.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/ody9g3zc41.jpg
Another feature of the A1 model that many people like is the simplicity of the rear sight. It is a “set it and forget it” affair with adjustment for windage only.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/6sh36nk97o.jpg
A third feature of the A1 model often mentioned is the shorter length of pull when compared to the A2 model. The A1 stock is 5/8” shorter than the A2 stock. [While the A2 stock is longer than the A1 stock, it is made of improved materials making it 10 to 12 times stronger than the A1 stock. (All the better to butt-stroke you with, my dear!)]
I have an unfired, 20” Colt A1 barrel assembly in excellent condition that I’ve been saving to use for a 20” KISS type build. As Colt introduced the first AR-15 A2 model to the civilian market around 1984 and stopped producing the A1 Sporter model around 1985, I’m going to take a S.W.A.G. and say that the A1 barrel that I have is over 20 years old! The barrel is stamped “C MP CHROME BORE” and has a 1:12” twist.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/32u3e44enx.jpg
While I wanted to keep this KISS build as reasonably light as possible, I did want to make a few changes from the standard A1 configuration. One complaint generally heard against the A1 barrel is that it is “not very accurate,” though most often the complaint is made without any quantifying data being presented. Also, the A1 model uses the triangle handguards that are known for having poor heat dissipation and easy breakage. I decided to replace the triangle handguards with a 1st generation JP Enterprises free float tube to aide in heat dissipation and in ringing out all the available accuracy of the A1 barrel. The JP tube and barrel nut replace the triangle handgurads, handguard endcap, barrel nut and delta ring assembly. The JP free float tube and barrel nut actually weigh 1 ounce less than the original parts that they replace.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/pzvyv8pa5z.jpg
While I like the simplicity of the windage-only feature of the A1 sight, I prefer the sight aperture of the A2 sight. The “long distance” aperture of the A2 sight is about 0.010” smaller than the A1 aperture and the A2 aperture also has the “ghost ring” aperture for up close/low light shooting that is lacking on the A1 sight. Enter, the LaRue Tactical Back Up Iron Sight. This sight uses an A2 aperture but has adjustments for windage only; exactly what I was looking for. The sight attaches to the Picatinny rail of a flat-top upper receiver using LaRue’s throw lever mount.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/y31ou12k0j.jpg
You’ll notice in the last sentence that I said flat-top upper receiver. An A1 upper receiver weighs 9.9 ounces. An A4 flat-top upper receiver with the LaRue BUIS attached weighs 11.5 ounces for a difference of 1.6 ounces. Using the JP free-float tube along with the flat-top upper receiver and LaRue BUIS for this build gives me a net weight gain of only 0.6 ounces more than a standard A1 upper group. It also gives me the option of adding optics to the flat-top upper receiver and rails in just about any position I might need them on the JP free-float tube. Even though the LaRue sight is referred to as a back-up sight, I’ll be using it as the main sight on this KISS build.
The completed 20” KISS build weighs in at 6 lbs 15 oz. Here are a few pics of the the build.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/a5sc4oly28.jpg
http://www.box.net/shared/static/9dlmlilonx.jpg
http://www.box.net/shared/static/omd90lyxak.jpg
http://www.box.net/shared/static/9d69bpthe9.jpg
For his article “AR-15 Match Loads”, Al Miller used six different powders and five different bullets in testing, including Sierra’s 52 grain boat-tail hollow point bullet. He tested his loads off a bench at 100 yards using front and rear bags and a scope. Unfortunately, he did not fire any 10-shot groups (I guess he didn’t get the memo.:D ) All of his groups consisted of 5 shots each. His groups ranged from 0.75” to 2.75”.
Using his best tuned load, Al Miller turned in ten, 5-shot groups that had an average extreme spread of 1.075”. While these were only 5-shot groups, I was extremely impressed that he was able to obtain that level of accuracy using an A1 barrel. I was curious to see how my twenty year old A1 barrel would stack-up against his. (Obiously, I had an advantage with the free-float tube.)
Using one of my standard handloads for Sierra’s 52 grain MatchKing, I fired ten, 5-shot groups in a row from the bench at 100 yards (using front and rear bags and a scope) with the following results:
0.81”
1.10”
1.04”
1.34”
0.66”
0.73”
1.01”
0.98”
0.93”
1.08”
The average extreme spread for my ten groups was 0.968”. Following my standard protocol for accuracy testing, I also obtained three 10-shot groups from 100 yards that measured:
1.39”
1.26”
1.40”
Those three, 10-shot groups had an average extreme spread of 1.35” and more importantly the three groups overlayed on each other using RSI Shooting Lab had a mean radius of 0.45”. Here are some pics of the best groups.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/t2oyzpktgr.jpg
http://www.box.net/shared/static/6y20jdos12.jpg
http://www.box.net/shared/static/kgcgn3ubx9.jpg
In 1964, during testing for report number DPS-1471, the US Military conducted accuracy testing of production M16 rifles (which had the same barrel as the M16A1.) With the rifles secured in a machine rest, three 10-shot groups were fired (hmm . . . where have I heard that before) from 100 yards using M193 ammunition. “The average extreme spread of the groups ranged from 2.6 to 3.6 inches.”
For nostalgia sake, I fired three, 10-shot groups of IMI M193 off the bench at 100 yards from my A1 barreled upper. The average extreme spread of the three groups was 3.00”.
.....
20" middie gas?
:confused:
That doesn't make sense.
yep, thats what he said. ? but i still gotta see it.
i'll bet a donut its rifle gas, but he built it ? who knows ?
peabody
Competing With the Past
More than thirty years ago, the article “AR-15 Match Loads” by Al Miller was published in Handloader magazine. As you would expect, the article chronicles Al Miller’s endeavors in developing accurate loads for the AR-15. The AR-15 he used in developing his match loads was an A1 version. (Did I mention this was done 30 years ago?)
http://www.box.net/shared/static/8cjkp7clex.jpg
Even though the M16A2 replaced the M16A1 as “Standard A” for the U.S. Military in November of 1983, the A1 has several characteristics that many people still find desirable today. Foremost would probably be the light weight of the rifle, which is due in no small part to the A1 barrel. The A1 barrel weighs several ounces less than an A2 government profile barrel (and one pound, 4 ounces less than an HBAR). Comparing the profile of an A1 barrel to an A2 barrel, we see that the weight reduction occurs in the area from the gas block to the muzzle.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/ody9g3zc41.jpg
Another feature of the A1 model that many people like is the simplicity of the rear sight. It is a “set it and forget it” affair with adjustment for windage only.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/6sh36nk97o.jpg
A third feature of the A1 model often mentioned is the shorter length of pull when compared to the A2 model. The A1 stock is 5/8” shorter than the A2 stock. [While the A2 stock is longer than the A1 stock, it is made of improved materials making it 10 to 12 times stronger than the A1 stock. (All the better to butt-stroke you with, my dear!)]
I have an unfired, 20” Colt A1 barrel assembly in excellent condition that I’ve been saving to use for a 20” KISS type build. As Colt introduced the first AR-15 A2 model to the civilian market around 1984 and stopped producing the A1 Sporter model around 1985, I’m going to take a S.W.A.G. and say that the A1 barrel that I have is over 20 years old! The barrel is stamped “C MP CHROME BORE” and has a 1:12” twist.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/32u3e44enx.jpg
While I wanted to keep this KISS build as reasonably light as possible, I did want to make a few changes from the standard A1 configuration. One complaint generally heard against the A1 barrel is that it is “not very accurate,” though most often the complaint is made without any quantifying data being presented. Also, the A1 model uses the triangle handguards that are known for having poor heat dissipation and easy breakage. I decided to replace the triangle handguards with a 1st generation JP Enterprises free float tube to aide in heat dissipation and in ringing out all the available accuracy of the A1 barrel. The JP tube and barrel nut replace the triangle handgurads, handguard endcap, barrel nut and delta ring assembly. The JP free float tube and barrel nut actually weigh 1 ounce less than the original parts that they replace.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/pzvyv8pa5z.jpg
While I like the simplicity of the windage-only feature of the A1 sight, I prefer the sight aperture of the A2 sight. The “long distance” aperture of the A2 sight is about 0.010” smaller than the A1 aperture and the A2 aperture also has the “ghost ring” aperture for up close/low light shooting that is lacking on the A1 sight. Enter, the LaRue Tactical Back Up Iron Sight. This sight uses an A2 aperture but has adjustments for windage only; exactly what I was looking for. The sight attaches to the Picatinny rail of a flat-top upper receiver using LaRue’s throw lever mount.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/y31ou12k0j.jpg
You’ll notice in the last sentence that I said flat-top upper receiver. An A1 upper receiver weighs 9.9 ounces. An A4 flat-top upper receiver with the LaRue BUIS attached weighs 11.5 ounces for a difference of 1.6 ounces. Using the JP free-float tube along with the flat-top upper receiver and LaRue BUIS for this build gives me a net weight gain of only 0.6 ounces more than a standard A1 upper group. It also gives me the option of adding optics to the flat-top upper receiver and rails in just about any position I might need them on the JP free-float tube. Even though the LaRue sight is referred to as a back-up sight, I’ll be using it as the main sight on this KISS build.
The completed 20” KISS build weighs in at 6 lbs 15 oz. Here are a few pics of the the build.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/a5sc4oly28.jpg
http://www.box.net/shared/static/9dlmlilonx.jpg
http://www.box.net/shared/static/omd90lyxak.jpg
http://www.box.net/shared/static/9d69bpthe9.jpg
For his article “AR-15 Match Loads”, Al Miller used six different powders and five different bullets in testing, including Sierra’s 52 grain boat-tail hollow point bullet. He tested his loads off a bench at 100 yards using front and rear bags and a scope. Unfortunately, he did not fire any 10-shot groups (I guess he didn’t get the memo.:D ) All of his groups consisted of 5 shots each. His groups ranged from 0.75” to 2.75”.
Using his best tuned load, Al Miller turned in ten, 5-shot groups that had an average extreme spread of 1.075”. While these were only 5-shot groups, I was extremely impressed that he was able to obtain that level of accuracy using an A1 barrel. I was curious to see how my twenty year old A1 barrel would stack-up against his. (Obiously, I had an advantage with the free-float tube.)
Using one of my standard handloads for Sierra’s 52 grain MatchKing, I fired ten, 5-shot groups in a row from the bench at 100 yards (using front and rear bags and a scope) with the following results:
0.81”
1.10”
1.04”
1.34”
0.66”
0.73”
1.01”
0.98”
0.93”
1.08”
The average extreme spread for my ten groups was 0.968”. Following my standard protocol for accuracy testing, I also obtained three 10-shot groups from 100 yards that measured:
1.39”
1.26”
1.40”
Those three, 10-shot groups had an average extreme spread of 1.35” and more importantly the three groups overlayed on each other using RSI Shooting Lab had a mean radius of 0.45”. Here are some pics of the best groups.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/t2oyzpktgr.jpg
http://www.box.net/shared/static/6y20jdos12.jpg
http://www.box.net/shared/static/kgcgn3ubx9.jpg
In 1964, during testing for report number DPS-1471, the US Military conducted accuracy testing of production M16 rifles (which had the same barrel as the M16A1.) With the rifles secured in a machine rest, three 10-shot groups were fired (hmm . . . where have I heard that before) from 100 yards using M193 ammunition. “The average extreme spread of the groups ranged from 2.6 to 3.6 inches.”
For nostalgia sake, I fired three, 10-shot groups of IMI M193 off the bench at 100 yards from my A1 barreled upper. The average extreme spread of the three groups was 3.00”.
.....
dude that is just one cool rifle !:)
very interesting report on the accuracy of your barrel'.
peabody
Heartland Hawk
06-03-10, 09:32
I don't think my collection would be complete without my BCM 20' A2.
20" middie gas?
:confused:
That doesn't make sense.
Sabre makes a few of those, IIRC. They also make 18" middies (I know that for a fact).
Always been a 16" fan til this winter when I got the urge to build an SDM clone for iron sight shootiing as well as long range scoped shooting off a bipod. Just finished her up the other day.
http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp133/m1ajunkie/100_1559.jpg
My almost 50 year old eyes could use the longer sight radius. a BMC build!
My next build is going to be a 20" with plenty of BCM parts. Should be a nice complement to my 21" AR10.
just finished another A4 clone, but this time i used midwest ind, two piece rail's... ''they are slick'' !!
still saving for an ACOG.
peabody
Tango-Alpha
09-16-11, 18:24
Oddly enough, when I started the process of assembling my first AR it was a 20" rifle, but midpoint in the process I realized that what I wanted was an M4 carbine; really two different guns on the same platform. So rather than compromise between the two I decided to just start a second build. Just this week I obtained both barrels and I'm in the process of finishing them up. At the moment the 20" rifle is out for custom engraving, but once that's done I'll be sure to take some photos and post them here for your viewing pleasure.
20" still has it's place ... in 308 or 6.5 creedmore.
If I had to build a SPR I would go probably with 18" but I'd rather have the 6.5 pill than the 5.56.
Tango-Alpha
09-16-11, 19:02
20" still has it's place ... in 308 or 6.5 creedmore.
If I had to build a SPR I would go probably with 18" but I'd rather have the 6.5 pill than the 5.56.
No question about it. I couldn't see using a .308 in anything less than a 20" for that matter.
Oddly enough, when I started the process of assembling my first AR it was a 20" rifle, but midpoint in the process I realized that what I wanted was an M4 carbine; really two different guns on the same platform. So rather than compromise between the two I decided to just start a second build. Just this week I obtained both barrels and I'm in the process of finishing them up. At the moment the 20" rifle is out for custom engraving, but once that's done I'll be sure to take some photos and post them here for your viewing pleasure.
looking forward to the pictures ! :dance3:
Belmont31R
09-16-11, 22:03
No question about it. I couldn't see using a .308 in anything less than a 20" for that matter.
In the testing KAC did the 16" has less than 100FPS velocity loss compared to the 20". Below 16" there was much more loss as 16" seems to the magic number between burn rates and barrel length.
I can see a big difference between 16" and 24" but you dont need a huge tube on a 308 to get effective powder burn. A 24" gas gun would be cumbersome.
I really like my BCM 20.
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i90/TedG954/IMG_4554a.jpg
With all the tricked out carbines, midies, etc... I still like my early 70's 20" sp1. Sweet gun. Like these pics. Need to bring her out and shoot soon. Miss her. Sometimes I get caught up in the "new", and seeing these make me say "next week, old girl is coming out". Thanks for the reminder.
steelonsteel
09-16-11, 23:08
I've got a 16" midlength, and a 16" carbine, and I wsa just thinking about a 20" A4 gun for range use would be fun - I also never had this many AR's till I started lurking here.
Belmont31R
09-16-11, 23:19
With all the tricked out carbines, midies, etc... I still like my early 70's 20" sp1. Sweet gun. Like these pics. Need to bring her out and shoot soon. Miss her. Sometimes I get caught up in the "new", and seeing these make me say "next week, old girl is coming out". Thanks for the reminder.
My dislike for them stems from being issued an A4, and trying to get in and out of vehicles with 200LB doors while wearing 60+ lbs of gear. Also shooting with long ass fixed stocks in gear with helmets that would get pushed down over your eyes.
That type of setup is good for traditional marksmanship type shooting but SUCKS when wearing gear, in and out of tightly packed vehicles, and wearing any type of equipment. Not to mention in CQB conditions between the stock and barrel you have 6"+ of extra length to contend with for a few more FPS. Ill GLADLY take a short(er) barrel with modern duty loads vs. a 20" a bit a more FPS.
20" BCM upper, Fulton A1 stock kit, RRA 2-stage left in a mega lower left over from an old build. I built it just for fun shooting.
http://turboninjas.com/gallery/d/52713-1/BCM20.jpg
Just received my PSA FN 20" upper today! I have the lower receiver built, now just need the A2 stock kit.
I like the handiness of the M4 length, but I wanted at least one 20" rifle for two reasons. First, my 57 yr old eyes just cannot focus sharply on the M4 front sight. I can see the M1 Garand front sight fine, but just a few inches less and the sight starts to blur. So I pretty much have to use optics on the M4 for fast clear sighting. I still want to be able to shoot with irons, and .223 ammo is much cheaper to reload than .30-02, so the 20" barrel looks great for my eyes.
Secondly, I want to shoot more CMP matches (recreation) with both my Garands and AR15. So now I can add a carry handle and GI web sling and be ready to go. Tried it out with an LMT BUIS (forgot I had one in the parts box) and the front sight looks sharp at the 20" length. I'll get a 4-12x scope or similar on it for longer target shooting and accuracy testing handloads.
I'll keep my M4s set up for the 25-250 yds shooting, and have my 20" A4 for fun CMP matches, iron sight plinking, and load testing.
The 20" is my favorite barrel length for an AR. It may not be the most practical for all applications, but I don't give a tinker's damn. It works for me and it's the one I like best
Kustom_efekt
09-17-11, 04:54
I'm inhttp://tapatalk.com/mu/c6e4c210-6e35-287a.jpg
http://tapatalk.com/mu/c6e4c210-6e7b-1718.jpg
Knife_Sniper
09-17-11, 07:43
http://www.thenewrifleman.com/images/stories/thumbnails/images-RiflePhotos-dscf2255%20800x600%20watermark-720x538.jpg
You can't beat it. My primary builds are 20inch rifles.
If you KISS then a 20 can be damn light compared to railed carbines. My 20 with A1 stock from CAV Manf. is light and the rifle points fast. I have used this rifle (to my amazement) to hit gongs at 500 yards prone, sitting, and freehand.
I also like the real estate for my hand to hold far down on the barrel.
They are the bees knees!
The_War_Wagon
09-17-11, 08:30
My old 20" PWA-HBAR that I bought used in '91, and had been with the troops previously... at Valley Forge :fie: ... still gives me nightmares.
18" is as close as I've gotten since... and that just in the last month!
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/The_War_Wagon/New%20build/SPR14.jpg
Eurodriver
09-17-11, 14:25
While cool, I only like having rifles that I shoot. I'm trying to sell my 20" BCM.
I've had this for over a year and put less than 300 rounds through it. Its just not really that fun. If I had to do it over again I would buy an 18" SPR.
The bottom M4 Clone is already sold.
http://i54.tinypic.com/3358wlg.jpg
Got to shoot my A2 at the 500 yard rams on our high power range Wednesday. Using .223 ammo, I had to dial it up to 675 yards to get hits.
I would love to do an A5 setup, its one of my gretest desires. ( could I have sounded any more gay? I think not..lol.) The only reason I am not doing it TODAY, is that I will probably try the a5 on all my other uppers and swap them all out. So..I am saving a thousand dollars by waiting. Yea, crappy logic, but it gets me through the night. :D
Knife_Sniper
09-18-11, 05:48
I recently purchased an A5 telestock and I can safely say its going into pig territory in regards to weight.
I put it on a 20 inch Gov't profile A2 build for fun and I can safely say that combined with MOE handguards it has enough weight to use as a baseball bat.
Vltor A5: 1lb 10.7 oz.
An Undocumented Worker
09-18-11, 10:06
I just wish someone would make/sell a hammer forged 20" pencil barrel with FSB already pinned on and m4 cuts on the feedramp.
Melonited vs chrome lined would also make a nice addition.
If someone did that I would jump all over a 20" rifle.
pistolman1974
09-18-11, 10:44
BCM 20" A4 upper w/detachable carry handle, Delton carbine lower with a Magpul CTR Stock.
I really enjoy shooting my 20" AR. I eventually want to get an acog rails and a Spikes Tactical Carbine Lower.:D
I've got a 90's A2 'Gov't' model that I still love to shoot. (It was my dad's, I recently 'early inherited it' when he realized he just couldn't go shooting on a regular basis anymore.) It's just a smooth shooter, and still groups nicely for its age. Even with my middle aged eyes and iron sights, it shoots decent groups at 100m even with 15 year old 'gun show' ammo. :D
i have been contemplating running a 20'" turned and cut to a pencil/18" with an A5 system instead of a 16" carbine, if it can be reliable with most ammo.
Go back to the 20" rifle? I never left it.:D
Colt A2
http://www.box.net/shared/static/ii1clff612.jpg
Colt A2 HBAR
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/157/colta2hbar01framedwy0.jpg
Colt A4ish
http://www.box.net/shared/static/sfgcpvy3x9.jpg
Colt HBAR
http://www.box.net/shared/static/40v1m24jx7.jpg
Noveske HBAR
http://www.box.net/shared/static/mla3p170ls.jpg
Colt HBAR
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/9572/shootingcoatandrifle01resizedframedmn6.jpg
Love the bottom rifle. It is a 20" right?
Also, I love my 20" guns. Never left 'em.
I assembled a few AR's recently with BCM 20" steel barrels & one with a 20" WOA SDMR barrel. Love them all. I enjoy shooting them more than my tricked out 16"ers.
I had a 20" barrel turned down, put A1 handguards on it, using an A5 buffer system, and it's an absolute joy to shoot. It points very naturally.
No problem hitting an A zone (5x10") plate at 100 yards offhand with irons.
I had to sell of some of my ARs and my 20" is the only one I have left. I just enjoy shooting it more than my carbines and midlengths.
I had to sell of some of my ARs and my 20" is the only one I have left. I just enjoy shooting it more than my carbines and midlengths.
They're by far the most enjoyable ARs to shoot for a true rifleman. Carbeans and SBRs are out of necessity. We have to use them.. but the rifle is a pleasure to shoot.
They're by far the most enjoyable ARs to shoot for a true rifleman. Carbeans and SBRs are out of necessity. We have to use them.. but the rifle is a pleasure to shoot.
I understand that sentiment. I once had someone trying to talk me out of keeping my 20" AR because I wouldn't be able to shoot someone if I was in the driver's seat of my car and had to shoulder my rifle to shoot through the windshield, among other various unlikely scenarios, which made me realize that I don't need to justify a certain type of weapon for every SHTFantasy out there. I like the 20". The way it looks, shoots, handles, etc.
Have you run a 20" in a carbine class, or a shoot house?
I haven't. I do all of my shooting out on BLM land.
Have you run a 20" in a carbine class, or a shoot house?
I want to. Down the road, when the money comes together.
Inside the length of a 20" makes itself known.
For defensive use with modern duty loads a 16" (or shorter) should get you every bit of range you could ever justify, and is quite a bit more handy.
My first AR was an SP1, I loved it for walking around in the woods but a carbine is more practical for use inside a structure. I sure enjoyed qual back in the day with my A2 a lot more than with an M4, but would have hated the length and stock in Iraq.
You can be well armed with a quality 20", but there are practical reasons the carbine is now more popular for serious use.
Inside the length of a 20" makes itself known.
For defensive use with modern duty loads a 16" (or shorter) should get you every bit of range you could ever justify, and is quite a bit more handy.
My first AR was an SP1, I loved it for walking around in the woods but a carbine is more practical for use inside a structure. I sure enjoyed qual back in the day with my A2 a lot more than with an M4, but would have hated the length and stock in Iraq.
You can be well armed with a quality 20", but there are practical reasons the carbine is now more popular for serious use.
These are good points. If I was in harms way and was planning to do vehicle ops or interior work, I'd likely stick with a carbine and quality RDS.
As it is, I like my 20" with irons. It's not my HD weapon. I shoot several times a year out at the BLM land here, from 25-300 yards, plinking, stupid little drills with friends and what not. I like it a lot for that purpose.
Inside the length of a 20" makes itself known.
No question. I was cleaning my A2 today and tried moving through the house on the way back to the safe. :p
It's a LONG gun.
Failure2Stop
09-20-11, 09:14
Have you run a 20" in a carbine class, or a shoot house?
I did a 5-Day with an A4 (with light and Peq15) several years ago.
I really wanted to go back to an M4 by the end of that.
Then again, I also did two tours in Iraq with 20" guns (A2, A4, SAM-R), and working through enclosures sucked with them all.
Still, they shoot very smoothly, but I don't think I will ever buy one.
pistolman1974
09-20-11, 14:24
I have a carbine lower I found that having the adjustable stock helps it handle a little faster. I'm hoping to get an acog that way I can do cqb and distance shooting with the same upper.
I have a carbine lower I found that having the adjustable stock helps it handle a little faster.
The A5 buffer system would be optimal instead.... And would actually run both carbine and rifle gas systems better.
Eurodriver
09-20-11, 15:47
I did a 5-Day with an A4 (with light and Peq15) several years ago.
I really wanted to go back to an M4 by the end of that.
Then again, I also did two tours in Iraq with 20" guns (A2, A4, SAM-R), and working through enclosures sucked with them all.
Still, they shoot very smoothly, but I don't think I will ever buy one.
They are very smooth shooters. The only benefit I can possibly see is the longer handguard gives more rail space for lights, lasers, and grip space. Potentially makes it easier to prop up on a barricade as well but thats about it.
The A5 buffer system would be optimal instead.... And would actually run both carbine and rifle gas systems better.
http://i54.tinypic.com/2chrkep.jpg
It made me question for a long time what the purpose of the rifle buffer/stock was for (or vice versa with the carbine stock). I only fired a couple hundred rounds in that configuration but there were no issues, felt a different though. Front heavy and the recoil impulse was sharper feeling.
and the recoil impulse was sharper feeling.
Yep. Carbine is just a "tighter" system.
Failure2Stop
09-20-11, 16:04
They are very smooth shooters. The only benefit I can possibly see is the longer handguard gives more rail space for lights, lasers, and grip space. Potentially makes it easier to prop up on a barricade as well but thats about it.
Most 12" HGs will give you more rail space than the A4.
While the 20" is my favorite, it doesn't mean I shun the shorter barrel lengths. I'm waiting on pins & needles for the delivery of a 16" upper. I'd rather have a 14.5" but I figure the 16" is a better place to start
Eurodriver
09-20-11, 17:41
Most 12" HGs will give you more rail space than the A4.
I was speaking strictly in regards to issued M4s and M16A4s.
With the civilian market being the way it is, both the M4 and M16A4 are outdated IMHO
Failure2Stop
09-20-11, 19:00
I was speaking strictly in regards to issued M4s and M16A4s.
Ah, agreed.
With the civilian market being the way it is, both the M4 and M16A4 are outdated IMHO
I'd take a fixed carry handle Colt M4 over most of what's out there and popular today.... but I'm an old school minimalist.
Eurodriver
09-21-11, 05:24
I'd take a fixed carry handle Colt M4 over most of what's out there and popular today.... but I'm an old school minimalist.
Really? The 7" handguard on the M4 is almost useless, especially when they issue you the huge M961 series of Surefires and a PEQ.
Thats why those damn grip-pods are so popular.
A Colt M4 with a 12" Free Float would be perfect for general issue.
Magic_Salad0892
09-21-11, 05:33
Really? The 7" handguard on the M4 is almost useless, especially when they issue you the huge M961 series of Surefires and a PEQ.
Thats why those damn grip-pods are so popular.
A Colt M4 with a 12" Free Float would be perfect for general issue.
A 14.5'' Carbine gas gun, with LW profile barrel, small(er) gas port, DD 9.5 FSB Rail (or KAC 7'' URX), SureFire Scout + KAC 1'' Light mount, KAC 600m Micro rear, Standard FSB, VLTOR A5, and Trjicon ACOG TA11 or TA31 is IMHO one of the best upper receiver setups on the market.
I'm with Markm on this one. I'd take a 14.5'' CAR gas LW gun over most stuff on the market. Namely 16.1'' Middys, 20'' rifles, 14.5'' middys, and especially 16.1'' CAR gas SOCOM profile retard barrels, or HK MR556A1 upper.
I'd also have to admit to hating 9''+ rails on anything but Mk.18, Commando style rifles, or SPRs.
Eurodriver
09-21-11, 08:03
A 14.5'' Carbine gas gun, with LW profile barrel, small(er) gas port, DD 9.5 FSB Rail (or KAC 7'' URX), SureFire Scout + KAC 1'' Light mount, KAC 600m Micro rear, Standard FSB, VLTOR A5, and Trjicon ACOG TA11 or TA31 is IMHO one of the best upper receiver setups on the market.
I'm with Markm on this one. I'd take a 14.5'' CAR gas LW gun over most stuff on the market. Namely 16.1'' Middys, 20'' rifles, 14.5'' middys, and especially 16.1'' CAR gas SOCOM profile retard barrels, or HK MR556A1 upper.
I'd also have to admit to hating 9''+ rails on anything but Mk.18, Commando style rifles, or SPRs.
I'm not talking about gas system length, I'm talking about the lack of area to actually handle the weapon as my main disagreement with the 14.5" issued M4. 7" rails blow.
Really? The 7" handguard on the M4 is almost useless, especially when they issue you the huge M961 series of Surefires and a PEQ.
No one issues me those things. ;)
I have a light and a sling. The light's a little short mounted on the 7" KAC rail.... but it's doable.
I'd take a fixed carry handle Colt M4 over most of what's out there and popular today.... but I'm an old school minimalist.
Same here, Mark.
Magic_Salad0892
09-21-11, 14:55
I'm not talking about gas system length, I'm talking about the lack of area to actually handle the weapon as my main disagreement with the 14.5" issued M4. 7" rails blow.
Feels good to me.
Different strokes for different folks I guess.
I mentioned gas systems because a lot of standard offerings use rail lengths based on gas system, because most companies still use FSBs.
Eurodriver
09-21-11, 16:00
Feels good to me.
Different strokes for different folks I guess.
Like anything else on this forum, its important to point out mission requirements with a weapon platform. Add an IR Laser and a flashlight and you run out of room quickly.
http://i52.tinypic.com/2rc3146.jpg
If I could stand VFGs, itd be a different story. But now we're totally off topic, forgive me.
Kustom_efekt
09-30-11, 19:33
Did a little addition the other day-- new magpul buttstock:
http://tapatalk.com/mu/a6890c1d-5f94-27a6.jpg
http://tapatalk.com/mu/a6890c1d-5fb4-86cf.jpg
http://tapatalk.com/mu/a6890c1d-5fe3-f1f2.jpg
Finally got my A2 stock in today. Assembled it onto the lower receiver, snapped in the new PSA 20" upper and attached the carry handle. Should get the new 3-9x Zeiss scope on Monday. Then a range trip later in the week is called for!
Keeping it simple to start with, especially for CMP matches. I don't plan to change anything until I have lots of practice with it to see if I like it as-is or want to improve anything.
Already starting to contemplate having a "sport" lower and a "CMP compliant" lower!! Which will of course turn into yet another rifle. Right now need to focus on getting the CMP version tested and settled!
wow... good lookin rigs guys !!!:D
peabody
vicious_cb
10-01-11, 18:58
I feel like a modernized A1 pencil barreled with an vltor A5 would make an excellent rural/ranch rifle. Now if only a good barrel maker made good 20" pencil barrels.
I have four 16 inch rifles. A 20 will be my next addition. The only question is do I go with BCM or give Palmetto State Armory a try....
Nightvisionary
10-01-11, 21:57
My next AR will be a 20 inch in 6x45. The barrel just came in today:D
I have four 16 inch rifles. A 20 will be my next addition. The only question is do I go with BCM or give Palmetto State Armory a try....
I'd say go Palmetto, chop the FSB and put a Troy Alpha rail on it. Lower with an A5 stock and you're ready to go.
Squirtgunner
02-20-12, 19:23
I used to have an Armalite 20" stainless and sold it. Of all the guns I've let go over the years that one is my biggest regret. I'd love to have another 20" someday soon.
I love my A1 with authentic USGI basic training plastic.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e130/toddgriffin00/001-7.jpg
mallowpufft
02-20-12, 19:45
I'd say go Palmetto, chop the FSB and put a Troy Alpha rail on it. Lower with an A5 stock and you're ready to go.
I know the BCM's are good but my 20" is a range/varmint gun. I'm running PSA with MOE furniture while I save up for a good optic and a Troy free float tube. Still can't decide between a Vortex 2.5-10 or a Redfield 4-12x50. Right now I'm running a Cabellas .223 specific scope that I picked up for less than the cost of the mount. It's ok... still hits where I want it to it's just not as good as the other two options.
I've got about 400 rounds through it w/o a single hiccup.
ICANHITHIMMAN
02-20-12, 20:08
I have a 20" BCM I run as an SPR type rig. Its alot of fun and my idea of a perfect setup. It shoots just a little better than it did in its inital configuration due to the addition of the free float rail. When I can afford it, I have been tossing around the idea of a new barrel bolt combo in 6.5LBC.
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn119/ICANHITHIMMAN/guns0012.jpg
GeorgiaBoy
02-20-12, 23:01
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj307/Magicman710/photoshop4.jpg
I love a 20". Great balance, great recoil impulse, and the great nostalgia.
Magic_Salad0892
02-20-12, 23:43
Like anything else on this forum, its important to point out mission requirements with a weapon platform. Add an IR Laser and a flashlight and you run out of room quickly.
http://i52.tinypic.com/2rc3146.jpg
If I could stand VFGs, itd be a different story. But now we're totally off topic, forgive me.
You're correct. However, that isn't what I'd be running on that setup, as I'm not military and am not barred to issue equipment.
M951 blows btw. I hate themz.
Is a 20" government profile barrel quite a bit lighter than a 20" H-BAR? Just curious because I own an H-BAR AR, and have only had experience handling two other ARs besides my own...that would be an 16" M4 profile and a 16" middy, that are both way lighter than mine.
I had an HBar 14.5" upper and it was noticeably heavier than every non HBar I picked up. I would never buy an HBar again.
I had an HBar 14.5" upper and it was noticeably heavier than every non HBar I picked up. I would never buy an HBar again.
Mine is quite clumsy, and even feels front heavy with a UBR stock, not even close to balanced. I imagine in a close quarters situation, my Glock would be more useful. I have finally decided that the barrels gotta go, and am waiting for my DD chf barrel I just ordered.
trackstar55
02-23-12, 08:38
howdy...
i've been playing around with my SP-1kinda/mutt/clone.. :)
shes a 1-7 government profile barrel. shoots everything very very well.
i love the softer cycle of the action.
i've of course putt the A1 stock on her, [man i love the A1 stocks !]
the triangular handguards are great ! i do think stoner got it right !!
i just love the bloody thing !:)
peabody
I want to build one. We are issued Vietnam era Colt M16's at work. I would like a semi-auto plinker of my own.
Only if Colt made a retro.
I'd take a fixed carry handle Colt M4 over most of what's out there and popular today.... but I'm an old school minimalist.
I'm getting to be that way. My 12.5 KINO isn't gonna have anything but the MOE furniture on it, a Troy flip up rear and a T1. That's it.
I want a Dissy and a A2.
Is a 20" government profile barrel quite a bit lighter than a 20" H-BAR? Just curious because I own an H-BAR AR, and have only had experience handling two other ARs besides my own...that would be an 16" M4 profile and a 16" middy, that are both way lighter than mine.
I've got a 20" gov profile upper with an M5 RAS and it feels lighter than my dad's who is running a 20" HBAR Bushmaster.
I still have a 20" AR set up like an M16A4 clone I use to use a lot before each rifle qual as a practice setup, but since my unit switched over to M4s a few years back its been a while since I've taken it out. If I was to do anything with it, I'd probably swap the M5 RAS out for a DD Omega so the barrel is floated (without needing any armorer tools) and swap the A2 stock out for an A5, then it'd be a pretty awesome infantry rifle.
I had every intention of making this an A4 clone, hence the KAC RAS. But, once I put it on my LWRC lower I really liked the way the gun handled as is. I plan to put an ACOG on it eventually, but since funds are tight right now, this is how it'll stay for awhile.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c245/USMC-to-be/CIMG2210.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c245/USMC-to-be/CIMG2211.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c245/USMC-to-be/CIMG2216.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c245/USMC-to-be/CIMG2213.jpg
Oh my gosh !!!
Look at how old this thread is !!
I haven't been on here in years.
For some reason.. this popped up.
And yes .
I still have a bunch of ARs..
And for so many years now.. I've been using my old colt government profile barreled A2.
Absolutely nothing special about it.
Only modification is the stock.
Im running a simple M-4 six position stock , with a Tubbs flat wire spring..
And a H2 buffer.. extremely smooth shooting.
And a sling.
Very accurate.. and basic.
I've shot lots of ammo through her.
She's a good rifle.
titsonritz
04-26-23, 15:07
Funny timing...I just picked up a NOS Colt AR15A4 upper and ordered a P&S M5 RAS handguard for it. Now that the weather is getting nice I'm looking forward to getting it out to the range.
vicious_cb
04-26-23, 16:23
Funny timing...I just picked up a NOS Colt AR15A4 upper and ordered a P&S M5 RAS handguard for it. Now that the weather is getting nice I'm looking forward to getting it out to the range.
Lets not be baited into this guy resurrecting his own 13 yo thread. Let it die.
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FLmldmsjVONJ9LYmE0e%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=537d6d67c982c9ae469ff7cd65ffd1106cff89b3b3702e974460499c0217277a&ipo=images
Oh my gosh !!!
Look at how old this thread is !!
I haven't been on here in years.
For some reason.. this popped up.
And yes .
I still have a bunch of ARs..
And for so many years now.. I've been using my old colt government profile barreled A2.
Absolutely nothing special about it.
Only modification is the stock.
Im running a simple M-4 six position stock , with a Tubbs flat wire spring..
And a H2 buffer.. extremely smooth shooting.
And a sling.
Very accurate.. and basic.
I've shot lots of ammo through her.
She's a good rifle.
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic1.squarespace.com%2Fstatic%2F55a83242e4b04071f6f89699%2F5656d4cae4b0b807738ae995%2F5656d4e5e4b0f06765e3d51a%2F1448531187399%2Fhamada%2Bno%2Bone%2Bcares.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=3b2de16bedbf30477c4bfd85bfa7a918221edb27d9642e137630e0d0c37e06f4&ipo=images
The irony of folks bumping this thread while simultaneously bemoaning its resurrection.
Thought about gettin' me a 20" once or twice.
I built a AR15A4 clone w/20" barrel. I shoot it a lot. Pretty neat blaster! :)
NYH1.
TurkeySpurs
04-28-23, 15:15
I have been toying with starting a 18" or 20" build.
having this pop up was interesting to read through.
I used to NEVER be without a 20" AR. Now I don't have one. 14.5" is my main "go to". I do have a 16" rifle sight gun, but it's been 14.5" SOCOM for a year or more now.
hoopharted
04-28-23, 18:19
love the 20 inch , built 2 , last one i have functioning but getting the dough together for a couple final parts swap out , its Wilson Combat receiver set , WC supper Sniper bull barrel 20", want to get their nickel boron BCG and their drop in trigger
I do love the 20" ARs. That's what first got me interested in them and in 2003 a post ban Bushmaster 1/9 twist 20" HBAR flat top was my first ever gun purchase.
I hated the weight of that HBAR though and wanted to swap the barrel out for a much lighter 1/7 twist 20" A2 profile barrel as soon as the ban expired in 2004. I no longer have that rifle, but I have a few more 20" ARs now almost 20 years later.
Windham did a minor update on their Plain-Jane A4 by substituting Magpul handguards in place of the A2 type. This was in a promo E-mail and doesn't show up on their website as of yet. I think it looks pretty cool:
https://i.imgur.com/vJiwDc5.jpg
WillieThom
04-30-23, 17:12
I’ve been considering getting a complete A1 lower and A2 upper from Fulton Armory just so I can have a 20” rifle in the stable. I’ve read good things about FA, I just haven’t fully committed.
With regard to resurrecting old threads… why is it even an issue? If it’s something old and dumb and retarded I can understand the complaints but obviously if it’s still somewhat relevant—as is this specific thread or there wouldn’t be folks posting in it—I don’t see the issue.
As a matter of fact, I can remember back in the day here on M4C it was, “Read more, post less, use the search function.” So much so that it was a damn mantra and kind of annoying…
I have a 20” NM upper that I put a LPVO on. Waiting for the ground to dry up a little more, then going to zero it.
I do want to get another 20”… but either an A1 or a 601. Leaning towards the slick side. But it is something that I’ll do when I can set money aside for it. Planning on an addition for garage, larger master bathroom, walk-in closet and gun room.
howdy...
i've been playing around with my SP-1kinda/mutt/clone.. :)
shes a 1-7 government profile barrel. shoots everything very very well.
i love the softer cycle of the action.
i've of course putt the A1 stock on her, [man i love the A1 stocks !]
the triangular handguards are great ! i do think stoner got it right !!
i just love the bloody thing !:)
peabody
I greatly enjoy my 20” m16a4 clone (colt ar15a4).
robbins290
05-01-23, 09:22
I have a Colt ar15-a4 on the way. and Plan on building another, that would make 4 total. Tho one is a cheap PSA kit.
Of all my Evil Black Rifles, the Colt AR-15A4 gets the most range time.
The rifle length M-16 should be a symbol for America. They're just a mystique about them. People in the Marines were privileged to draw an M4. I'm sure we all know better than to choose a rifle over a carbine. Either platform sends the rounds down range practically the same: deadly up-close, and less deadly far past 100 yards.
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