Question about ACOG scopes.

[JMMcC05]

I just got my first AR rifle. I'm thinking about purchasing a Trijicon ACOG
scope for my 5.56mm Colt M16 (16" inch barrel). I know that Trijicon makes
great scopes. Unfortunately there are about a million different models to
choose from. I did find a great comparison tool, but I still need more help
picking one out. Here's the comparison page that I found:

http://www.militarywarfighter.com/Trijicon_ACOG_Comparison_and_FAQ_s/386.htm

Do any of you have suggestions on which ACOG I should get? Have you used
the model you recommended? What was your experience with it?

[OOH RAH!]

I just got my first AR rifle. I'm thinking about purchasing a Trijicon ACOG
scope for my 5.56mm Colt M16 (16" inch barrel). I know that Trijicon makes
great scopes. Unfortunately there are about a million different models to
choose from. I did find a great comparison tool, but I still need more help
picking one out. Here's the comparison page that I found:

http://www.militarywarfighter.com/Trijicon_ACOG_Comparison_and_FAQ_s/386.htm

Do any of you have suggestions on which ACOG I should get? Have you used
the model you recommended? What was your experience with it?

I have not used one before but you should probably figure out what magnification power you want.

[Scoby]

If you post this in the optics and mounts forum you'll probably get more and better feedback.

Scoby

[OOH RAH!]

If you post this in the optics and mounts forum you'll probably get more and better feedback.

Scoby

I agree.

[militarymoron]

Do any of you have suggestions on which ACOG I should get?

which ACOG will work best for you depends on your needs. list the kind of shooting you plan to do with this rifle, to help the members here understand your needs better.
for starters...some of the things you might answer are:
1. what's the max distance you'll be shooting at?
2. min range?
3. what's the range of distances you'll be shooting at most of the time?
4. what are you shooting at?
5. mostly day, night, etc
6. static shooting, or dynamic?
7. for plinking, classes, home defense, LE work etc

[JMMcC05]

Thanks for the replies-- i'm not yet sure of the distances/ranges but this is mostly for LE work, usually night, dynamic shooting.

[theblackknight]

Thanks for the replies-- i'm not yet sure of the distances/ranges but this is mostly for LE work, usually night, dynamic shooting.



something 1x.

[Noodle]

I went with the TA31F-RMR. Here are a few of the things I considered when making the decision:
-Price, unfortunately they all are expensive
-Power, I wanted 3.5 or 4.0
-Use, personal home defence and fun at the range. I have not taken any courses yet but it's on the list.
-Ability to work both CQ and moderate distance, that is why I went with the RMR. Gives you the best of both worlds.
-Reticle, I wanted a red Chevron.
-Eye Relief, I compromised here. The 1.5" eye relief on the 31 series is short but I liked the size/weight and the power of the 31 series as compared to the 11 series (3.5 power)

There are other factors, like mounts, FOV, etc. I have mine mounted on a LMT Defender and once sighted, it is scary accurate out to 200M (max distance at my range).

Good luck with your purchase. I am sure you won't be dissappointed with any ACOG.

[Belmont31R]

I think you would be much happier with an RDS. I say that having owned 4 ACOG's in the past, and used two of them deployed.



They are GREAT for 100M +. Under that you will find yourself getting tunnel vision looking through it, and they are a poor choice for CQB work. They work really well for guys in Afghanistan who are shooting 200M-600M, and you have the range to stretch a carbines legs. An RDS is a much better choice from CQB-200M which covers 99% of what civilians and LE will be shooting with a duty or HD gun.


If you really need some magnification you can get a magnifier to work behind the RDS or go with a quality 1-4X variable scope.

[Failure2Stop]

-Ability to work both CQ and moderate distance, that is why I went with the RMR. Gives you the best of both worlds.

I hate being the guy that keeps saying this, but a piggybacked MRD sucks. I say this having a bit of experience with this topic.

The "Chin Weld" that the piggybacked optic forces you to employ is sub-optimal. Optimal is having an identical sight line. Next best is having a slight rotation of the gun without compromising cheek placement on the stock. The height of the optic over bore makes many unconventional and covered/supported positions more difficult than they already are, as well as introducing a whole other aspect of hold-overs at close range. There is a reason that the offset MRDs are popular with those that have the option. Sure, you can use a piggybacked MRD, many of us have, but most of us have also decided that if the option exists we will go a different direction.



-Reticle, I wanted a red Chevron.


If it's what you wanted, I am sure that it fills your needs.
However, if you want the reticle to help you perform certain tasks at distances between 200 and 300 meters, it blocks a lot of the target, which might not be all that eager to show much of itself.

The crosshair reticles such as in the "J" models are much more precise at those distances, and the "H" models are almost as precise, but much faster in use, especially in waning light.



-Eye Relief, I compromised here. The 1.5" eye relief on the 31 series is short but I liked the size/weight and the power of the 31 series as compared to the 11 series (3.5 power)

Eye relief is a critical part of dynamic shooting, especially from unconventional positions. If weight is an issue I would rather give up one degree of magnification and go with one of the 33 series ACOGs (if you are dead-set on an ACOG). A little more eye-relief and exit pupil makes the optic much easier to slide into when all else is not perfect.



Good luck with your purchase. I am sure you won't be dissappointed with any ACOG.

As long as you choose one that fits your needs ;)

Now, before anyone gets grumpy, I am not trying to tell Noodle that his optic sucks and he should sell it or he is stupid. If the thing works for you, great, keep it and cherish it, and pass it on to your offspring. However, the ACOG line has improved quite a bit since the TA31 landed a military contract (and even then it wasn't the best option, in my humble opinion). I own 2 ACOGs (TA11s), one of which is mounted on my game gun. I do, however, recommend something other than an ACOG for a more rounded application.

USMC03 has a good article regarding ACOGs, I'll see if I can dig it up and post a link to it.
ETA- Here is that link (http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/trijicon-acog-considerations).

[Noodle]

Failure2Stop:

Just curious what you like for a more rounded application. EOTech with a G23.FTS, Aimpoint with a 3XMAG, other? Clearly there are lots of good options out there.

[falightfighter]

Failure2Stop:

Just curious what you like for a more rounded application. EOTech with a G23.FTS, Aimpoint with a 3XMAG, other? Clearly there are lots of good options out there.

FWIW, I've read that SOCOM has replaced the ACOG with the ELCAN Specter DR in the SOPMOD kit for the M4.

[Failure2Stop]

Just curious what you like for a more rounded application. EOTech with a G23.FTS, Aimpoint with a 3XMAG, other? Clearly there are lots of good options out there.

I have a personal preference for quality low-powered variable optics for full spectrum application. There are a few good options in this category, from the Short Dot to the Accupoint. A daylight visible powered reticle (or point) helps tremendously at close-range, and a BDC or adjustable turrets helps with longer/more precise shots with magnification. Right now there isn't one that meets my definition of perfect, but there are several 90% solutions, and choosing one that favors the side of your most needed application will do well.

If your target engagement zone is 200 meters or less, a quality 1x optic with a magnifier can get a lot done. Better battery life with a more visible reticle than any other option out there. Even with the magnifier in place they are very usable at close range because the reticle visibility is much better than ones dependant on ambient light. Unfortunately, precision will take a distinct down-turn at distances past about 250 meters (unless your zero supports longer range precision over combat-relevant engagements).

The fixed low powered optics (really talking ACOGs here) are very good at 50 to 300 meter engagements in daylight, and with practice can be acceptable at much closer ranges in daylight. Some reticles favor certain applications, but I find the horseshoe-dot to be the most widely applicable. As I said before, eye-relief and exit pupil are more important than most users realize.

Luckily, ACOGs hold value, so if you find that you have outgrown your optic, there are plenty of people that will help you fund something else.

[JMMcC05]

Thanks for the awesome replies-- you guys have been a huge help!

[USMC03]

Failure2Stop's posts were spot on.


Thanks for the replies-- i'm not yet sure of the distances/ranges but this is mostly for LE work, usually night, dynamic shooting.


After using the Schmidt and Bender Short Dot for SWAT work for a couple years, I went back to an Aimpoint and added a magnifier when I needed magnification.

Here's something I wrote several years ago about ACOG's in a dynamic enviornment




Trijicon ACOG (TA01NSN, TA31, TA11....3.5x and 4x)

An ACOG would not be my choice for using on a CQB mission. When I first got a TA31 ACOG I used it for matches and became fairly proficient with it at rifle matches (3 yards to 425 yards), and after a short learning curve I felt comfortable using it at CQB distances.

I started using the TA31 at work and after my first couple SWAT missions, I quickly figured out that a 4x fixed optic was more of a liablity than an asset.

A 4x optic is very slow and doesn't afford the shooter a good sight picture or the ability to identify threats at CQB distances (concentrates on too small of a target area).

Often times when SWAT does an entry, both you and the bad guy are moving, it's dark, and you are using a white light, flash bangs are going off, you are trying to identify theats, dogs are so shitted they are either trying to get out of the house or trying to attack officers, there are people in the house that are not involved with the criminal activity (relatives or assoicates of the bad guy) etc, etc.



Doing CQB drills with an optic on a square range is quite different from using that same optic while doing a real world entry on a house with real suspects inside that would like to do you harm.




You may want to consider Aimpoint (or EO Tech) with magnifier. A couple reviews that you may find useful:

http://www.03designgroup.com/photo/aimpoint-3x-magnifier/icon-aimpoint-3x-magnifier.jpg
03designgroup | Aimpoint 3x Magnifier and LaRue Tactical QD Pivot Mount http://demigodllc.com/icon/extwh3.png (http://www.03designgroup.com/reviews/aimpoint-3x-magnifier)


http://www.03designgroup.com/img/3xt1.jpg
03designgroup | Getting the 3x Magnifier closer to the Aimpoint Micro T1 http://demigodllc.com/icon/extwh3.png (http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/aimpoint-3x-magnifier-with-t1-larue)




Hope this helps

[militarymoron]

Thanks for the replies-- i'm not yet sure of the distances/ranges but this is mostly for LE work, usually night, dynamic shooting.

F2S, USMC03 et al - can you weigh in your experiences/opinions for the ACOGs on dusk/night shooting?
unless it's dark enough (like in a rural/desert area at night) for the tritium to provide enough contrast against the background, i've hard a hard time seeing ACOG reticles at night, especially in urban environments with street lights etc.

this is just my personal opinion as a hobbyist shooter, so take it for what it's worth - i think that having the ability to adjust the brightness of the reticle/dot is essential after dark in an urban environment where you have both shadows and brightly lit areas.

[DTHN2LGS]

My choice for an ACOG would be the TA11 H, 3.5 power with the horseshoe reticle. I like the green color, but everyone will prefer a different color based on their own eyes.

[TehLlama]

Given the price advantage the TR24G offers against the ACOG line, if you're looking for an illuminated optic with Trijicon glass, that's the way to go.

Otherwise, an Aimpoint (H-1/T-1, M4S) is a solid choice.

[Singlestack Wonder]

FWIW, I've read that SOCOM has replaced the ACOG with the ELCAN Specter DR in the SOPMOD kit for the M4.

Where did you read that? I'd like to read the article as well.

[OMD]

http://www.elcan.com/About_ELCAN/Bulletins/070403_SOCOM.php for one.

[Singlestack Wonder]

http://www.elcan.com/About_ELCAN/Bulletins/070403_SOCOM.php for one.

Anything else (current) besides an Elcan ad?

[falightfighter]

I'm pretty sure I read it on SOCNET first, but its mentioned in post #23 on this thread, here https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=55562

[JSantoro]

Anything else (current) besides an Elcan ad?

Live witness? Yes, the Specter DR comes in he SOPMOD kit.

[Goshen606]

I have the TA47-R on my Colt LE6920. It's a carry handle mounted type optic. What little bit I've used it I like it pretty well. Good out to about 200 yards.

http://www.trijicon.com/user/parts/products1.cfm?PartID=198&back_row=1&categoryID=3