View Full Version : Best way to reduce Creep
What is the easiest/best way to reduce creep in a standard G.I. trigger set up?
I know I read somewhere about drilling the grip screw completely through the lower. Anybody know about this mod?
There are a number of ways to do that, some more invasive than others. The safest way IMHO is to simply polish it. Any mag/metal polish will do.
What about the "hardness" of the metal? Do I need to be concerned with removing it if I just use Flitz or something along those lines?
Trigger group is an RRA standard rounded.
Ive never used Flitz but from what I can see on their site, it seems like a good choice. Mild, non-abrasive and with a bit of corrosion protection.
As for the case hardened surface, I honestly cannot say for sure if a regular polish like Flitz can actually cut through this layer, the depth of which, I also do not know.
I used JB's bore cleaning and polishing paste to clean and polish the engagement surfaces and a little action lube plus, seems to smooth up the pull.
Ive never used Flitz but from what I can see on their site, it seems like a good choice. Mild, non-abrasive and with a bit of corrosion protection.
Just to clarify though, what exactly do you mean by the "hardness" of the metal?
I was under the impression that the surfaces were hardened.
EzGoingKev
05-28-10, 19:43
My trigger was really bad so I disassembled, cleaned, and lubed it.
While it is not a modification, it did make the trigger feel A LOT better.
I was under the impression that the surfaces were hardened.
Sorry about that, I edited my post. Again, I am not qualified to say for sure whether or not metal polish is abrasive enough to cut through the case hardened layer.
Did a quick web search and info on carburization indicates that the typical case hardened layer is between 1 - 1.5mm thick.
There are some people making modified long grip screws that pre-load the trigger, taking away the creep. An example I just googled is here. (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1196855) There's a picture of the screw so you can get a good idea of how it works.
Not exactly the safest thing in the world, but I think it's OK for a range gun.
Also, as an earlier poster said, giving the trigger group an overnight CLP bath really helps.
Different LPK's feel different, and the three built lowers I have have three different LPK's. One is a Del-Ton, another a Stag, and the third is a G&R. Grant picks his parts from different suppliers and what not, and after polishing the Del-Ton and purchasing one from G&R, the G&R feels better still. I havent compared it to any other trigger jobs such as Bill Springfield, but I would suggest you replace the interfacing parts and go from there.
if you've "polished" so deep that you're through the hardcase, your trigger isn't going to function correctly anyway. which segways into my caution- be very careful only to polish and not actually remove metal. you can very quickly end up with a very unsafe weapon.
www.triggerwork.net
i just send my triggers to bill springfield,
wow, best triggers i've ever used,
i ''had'' a timney single stage trigger, traded it off, went back with bill's triggers, 3 pound pull's zero creep, perfect resets, in a word ''awsome''
for something like 35 bucks, and 5 day turnaround, cain't beat bill's triggers.
peabody
I do not have any personal experience with Bill Springfield. I have read a few post of his triggers doubling.
they have a good rep overall.. personally, im not big on what he does to triggers for a duty/defense gun- based on what i know about about the AR FCG, those are modifications that decrease reliability.
Chris Rhines
05-28-10, 23:37
Myself, I got rid of the creep in my ARs by installing JP trigger groups in them. Not a tenable solution for some, but in over twenty thousand rounds through five lowers over four years, I've had exactly one trigger-related malfunction.
YMMV.
-C
The problem with Flitz and other paste polishing compounds is that you do not have a way to insure the surface on the trigger is being polished "square." A sear fixture and a hard Arkansas stone will keep the surface square and polish it. You only need a couple of passes on the trigger and hammer. You do not want to cut through the case hardening on a duty gun. On a match gun you can always use Kasenit to re-harden the surface.
Chris Rhines
05-29-10, 07:44
bkb0000 -
Trigger related - as in, a malfunction caused by a failure in one of the fire control group parts. Specifically, I had a fire-on-release in one of my oldest lowers about 18 months ago. At JP's suggestion, I cleaned the fire control group, readjusted the takeup and overtravel screws, and replaced the trigger return, hammer, and disconnector springs. The problem never reoccurred.
For the past year, I've been using that lower on my AR-22 upper and have had no further problems.
-C
I may just get a Geissell SSA.
I found info on the grip screw mod. Pretty simple, straight forward and reversible if I don't like it.
I do not have any personal experience with Bill Springfield. I have read a few post of his triggers doubling.
I've never heard of anyone that has had Springfield modifications done that have had any problems.
I have two and they've been gtg.
Remember where you read this? Link?
Scoby
Scott66Black
05-29-10, 19:12
I need to send mine off, my DPMS trigger is crap
I've never heard of anyone that has had Springfield modifications done that have had any problems.
I have two and they've been gtg.
Remember where you read this? Link?
Scoby
AR15.com For the majority, everyone seems satisfied with Bills work. I've read more than once about his triggers failing, going full auto after a couple 1000 rounds. But like I said, I have no hands on experience.
I did just do the trigger mod. What a difference. Cost all of $1.50. I used blue loctite on the set screw. A friend of mine does this to all his (13) AR's and has yet to have an issue. And he shoots the hell out of them. He does testing for a couple manufacturers.
I'll keep a close eye on it but if it stays put, it's a great, cheap mod.
I've never heard of anyone that has had Springfield modifications done that have had any problems.
I have two and they've been gtg.
Remember where you read this? Link?
Scoby
Here are a couple of threads on his work. It's a mix of happy customers and a couple that had doubling issues.
I guess from here, it really boils down to whether or not youre willing to take the plunge. Personally, the risk outweighs the benefit on this one. Just my thoughts on the subject. I too have no personal experience with his work.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=48551&highlight=Bill+Springfield
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=36907&highlight=Bill+Springfield
To be fair, the last thread has a set withstanding 5k pulls and several tests.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6266&highlight=Bill+Springfield
Do a search on Bill Springfield on M4C.
While quite a few are happy, some are not, and have had doubling or durability issues. Sounds fine for a range or target firearm, but not for a SD gun.
Have had good luck in smoothing out creep and lowering pull weight with mild polishing using Flitz on a Dremel felt wheel. A few light passes is all that is required, including on horizontal edges of trigger and hammer. Point is to POLISH not remove metal. Add some moly grease and you are done.
Mark
Has anybody used this set screw method? It feels great. I did polish the engagement surfaces with Mothers Mag Polish and a felt wheel. But the set screw takes out most of the creep.
RRA single stage triggers are some of the roughest triggers out there. Even after 'wearing' it in with a couple thousand rounds, mine didn't get feel better until I polished the worn in area with Mother's polish. No metal was removed in the process.
Some say not to lubricate triggers, but I lube mine with wheel bearing grease, and it does help a bit.
I'm interested in the set screw mod, but I know nothing of it. Can someone tell me how this works?
I noticed another issue. I replaced two hammers with RRA rounded. One has a nice pull and the spring seems fairly light. The one in the 11.5" has a very stong hammer spring. Why would there be that much difference? I've never used anything but standard springs.
I just remembered. I kept the spring from a RRA NM 2 stage. Would it be a different weight than a standard?
You cannot polish a surface without removing material. It may be a minute amount, just enough to smooth them up but material is removed.
Some triggers have case hardened surfaces and how deep the case hardening can vary from manufacture to manufacture and even piece to piece.
Creep is dependent on how far a sear must move along another sear before releasing the hammer or striker. Using a set screw to reduce creep means it allows less sear engagement, the same as if the trigger has been partially pressed. That means it's also easier to fire the weapon. If the screw is set so there is too little sear engagement, the weapon can be fired when dropped. It can also make the trigger unpredictable
There is a difference between slack and creep. Slack is how much trigger travel there is before the sears begin to move. The first stage of a two stage trigger is slack, for example.
Creep can also be reduced by reducing the amount of surface the sears engage and changing the angles by cutting & polishing. You can run into serious trouble doing so if you don't understand how it all works. If you understand the risks and like to tinker, then by all means have at it. Don't be surprised if you have replace the trigger group!
But if you're not knowledgeable and your life depends on the reliable functioning of the rifle, then do no more than lightly polish them. Before you do, thoroughly clean the trigger group and grease the sears (unless the environment precludes the use of grease) to see how gritty everything is. Gritty travel will exaggerate creep and make the pull heavier.
A smooth, predictable creepy trigger is preferable to a light, crisp unpredictable one, and much safer.
With the AR market being what it is, it's best to buy a good reliable trigger group and install it.
If you use Bill or any other gunsmith to work on your trigger, make sure they understand it's for a duty weapon. The polishing and fitting will be more conservative and not as crisp and light as a target trigger but it will be more reliable
I only us Chip McCormick's Trigger Slick and it works perfectly - with no need to "create" your own concoction of overly abrasive polishes. It will give a mirror finish WITHOUT you having to touch or rub on any sear surface. You remove it from the surfaces once it has done its job. One small container has lasted me 15 years and countless triggers. I use it for a final polish process on 1911 frame rails as well. If this doesn't help with creep then you need a trigger job.
Good point above MistWolf - I too hope that people are talking about limiting OVERTRAVEL of the trigger with a set screw (eg., stopping rearward movement of the trigger AFTER it has fully disengaged with the sear). That is what that set screw should be used for - not to limit the distance the sear travels before breaking. Two completely different set screws and the latter shouldn't exist on a combat weapon. I wouldn't want either on a SHTF gun. Not necessary.
I don't see that it's any different than an adjustable single stage trigger. But it's not on my work rifle.
I did a drop test several times from about 15 inches. The hammer did not follow.
I noticed another issue. I replaced two hammers with RRA rounded. One has a nice pull and the spring seems fairly light. The one in the 11.5" has a very stong hammer spring. Why would there be that much difference? I've never used anything but standard springs.
I just remembered. I kept the spring from a RRA NM 2 stage. Would it be a different weight than a standard?
I'm also curious if RRA 2-stage triggers come with different trigger/hammer springs. I assumed they were the same as standard.
I don't see that it's any different than an adjustable single stage trigger. But it's not on my work rifle.
I did a drop test several times from about 15 inches. The hammer did not follow.You have a good point. I have adjusted creep, pull weight and over-travel on the triggers of my Remingtons. It's easy to get them to the point they will go off with the slightest bump. My rifles have recoil pads so my drop test is to thump them pretty good on the floor.
The trigger I had the most trouble with was the one on my 40x. It was gritty and I couldn't get the creep out & pass the thump test. Drove me crazy because the trigger was fine before.
In frustration, I took it to a gunsmith to talk about getting an aftermarket unit installed. He told me to leave it with him & he'd work on it. When got it back, the grittiness was gone and I was able to adjust it to where I liked it- light & crisp. Turns out the trigger needed an accumulation of crud & dust cleaned from it. My brother who is a police officer tried the trigger. He said "Never on a duty weapon. Pull is too light". I have no reason to doubt him. He is experienced and gun savvy
That's a very common problem with bolties I've read at snipershide. Multiple sources recommend regular cleaning with lighter fluid, and moly dry lube thereafter or none.
I did the set screw mod on my newest build, details in my buildup thread below.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=52405
Testing to follow as soon as my schedule allows.
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