Warriors within various religions/cultures

[tampam4]

First off, this is not meant to become a thread where people bash each other and the opinion of others or a "this religion is better than that one" type of gig going on. Lets keep it civil and on track and I believe this will make for an interesting discussion and won't be shut down in 2 minutes.

As a Christian-turned atheist- turned Pagan, I find talks of warriors and their "way" in religion a fascinating and very interesting subject, as well as stories of warriors and what they did within that religion. As an example, I'll start with what I'm most knowledgeable in; Norse mythology.

In Norse mythology, warriors would chant a prayer to the God of War Odin just before the battle believing it would give them superpowers. They were so convincing in their battle-rage, that they created the definition for "berserk". Back then, "berserkr" would translate to "bear sack" or the skin of a bear they wore as outer garments.

If you would die anything other than a weapon, you'd be sent to "Hel", a cold place where you would spend all of your time freezing until Ragnarok, the Apocalypse.

However, if you died by a weapon in a battle, a group of Valkyries would come down from Asgardur, where the Norse Gods resided, and bring the warriors up to be amongst the Gods. The main palace had walls of towering golden spears, and gold shields as it's roof. There was always enough room and seating for everybody in the dining hall, no matter how many where there.

There was a pig that could feed the entire hall multiple times, and each morning was reborn to be fed to the warriors again. There was also a goat, that when "milked" only gave the finest ale. The men spend all day drinking and eating pork, and a nighttime, a huge battle between the men occurred. And each morning, they too would be revived, their wounds healed, and the day repeated. This was their training for the final battle of Ragnarok, where Loki, the outcast Norse God, would lead all of Midgardur's worst creatures to destroy the world.

I'd enjoy to hear from members stories or mythologies involving warriors and their "ways"

[Abraxas]

If you would die anything other than a weapon, you'd be sent to "Hel", a cold place where you would spend all of your time freezing until Ragnarok, the Apocalypse.



I have been to Hell Norway in February, it was cold. Must be close to the one you are referring to;). Sorry for not having much to add at this time. I am simply tagging. This has the potential for a interesting thread.

[Gutshot John]

Well there's always Hell Michigan.

I've actually been to Hell. :D

Honestly though I find the whole notion of attaching spirituality to warrior traditions to be a bit overdone.

[BushmasterFanBoy]

Norse Paganism is pretty cool to me (as an Athiest), I don't buy into it, but if I had to choose a religion, that's the way I'd lean. Mostly because my ideal day is hitting the range and training all day with a huge feast in the evening. That's an afterlife I can be sold on. :D

Another great warrior people are the Sikh's, in my limited reading about them, they're pretty much kick-ass.

[Littlelebowski]

I thought berserkers were also homosexuals?

[TOrrock]

I thought berserkers were also homosexuals?

Actually, beserks were devotees of Odin, god of battle, and homosexuality was one of the worst accusations that could be made against you in Norse/Icelandic culture.

Open homosexuality was not tolerated, at all.

[tampam4]

I thought berserkers were also homosexuals?

where did you see that? homosexuality was hugely looked upon in the days of the vikings and in Norse mythology. Heck, even not having a full face beard was considered a sign of weakness and femininity.

For a brief thread derail, I did see a documentary about the vikings/berserks, and certain scholars believed that the rage that gave the berserkers their name, was actually caused by consumption of hallucinogenic mushrooms right before battle. :eek: derail over.

[TOrrock]

Some decent Viking fiction is the "Oathsworn" series by Scottish author Robert Low. About the best I've come across, mainly dealing with the Eastern Vikings (Rus) and their travels/raids down the Volga and into Russia/Ukraine.

[Gutshot John]

Actually, beserks were devotees of Odin, god of battle, and homosexuality was one of the worst accusations that could be made against you in Norse/Icelandic culture.

Open homosexuality was not tolerated, at all.

That's not really my understanding. Femininity would have been frowned upon as an insult but homosexual activity in and of itself would have been different than the modern concept of "gay" or femininity.

A berserker could have had homosexual sex with a captured prisoner with no loss of status. If he was caught having sex with another warrior than different rules apply.

[Gutshot John]

nevermind

[Heavy Metal]

I preferred the issues where the Hulk and Thor went at it.

And Captain America was the only man besides Don Blake worthy enough to wield the enchanted Uru Mallet.

I would take my uncles Mallet and play Thor with it.

My Aunt never did figure out what happened to her collendar and why the Chicken lost both it's wings.

Yea, I did smite them verily!

[tampam4]

That's not really my understanding. Femininity would have been frowned upon as an insult but homosexual activity in and of itself would have been different than the modern concept of "gay" or femininity.

A berserker could have had homosexual sex with a captured prisoner with no loss of status. If he was caught having sex with another warrior than different rules apply.

I'll say this is not quite right. Any sort of homosexual activity was plain and simply a big no-no. If you engaged in it, you were considered less of a man. If you were *ahem* engaged *ahem* in homosexual activity by someone else, you were stripped of all your honor, and barely looked upon as human. However, raping women and pillaging was just fine.

The code of honor and pride was much different back then.

[Heavy Metal]

But have you ever prayed to Crom for vengance againt your enemies? :)

Better bone up on the Riddle of the Steel.

[tampam4]

But have you ever prayed to Crom for vengance againt your enemies? :)

Better bone up on the Riddle of the Steel.

No. If you wanted to pray for vengeance, you'd pray to Skadi (literal translation damage),Goddess of judgment, righteousness and vengeance.


ETA: Nobody has anything to say about warriors within other religions or their stories?

[Heavy Metal]

Crom, from the Conan series, was actually based on the celtic god Crom-Cruaich.

Robert Howard considered teh Hyperboreans to be proto-celts.

[BVickery]

I'm in an a class studying Ancient Greece, and just got done reading about the Battle of Marathon.

Athenian Force: 10,000 w/ 1,000 Plataeans
Persians: a low of 20,000 with a high up to 100,000

These numbers are from Herodotus for the most part.

Outcome:

Athenians KIA: 192 Athenians with about 11 Plataeans
Persians KIA About 6,400 dead were recorded in the field, there was a marsh nearby as well and think many more died there.


Now here is the kicker. Modern excavation of the known burial mound at Marathon has the remains of 203, the exact number listed in Herodutus's histories.

[Gutshot John]

I'll say this is not quite right. Any sort of homosexual activity was plain and simply a big no-no. If you engaged in it, you were considered less of a man. If you were *ahem* engaged *ahem* in homosexual activity by someone else, you were stripped of all your honor, and barely looked upon as human. However, raping women and pillaging was just fine.

The code of honor and pride was much different back then.

I confess Viking culture isn't really one of my strong points so I did have to rely on the internet to reply...

I came across a pretty good (with bibliography) website from Fordham University dealing with Viking Culture which addresses homosexuality...

As a "lifestyle" homosexuality would have been frowned upon but not because homosexual sex was considered perverse (perversion was usually a Christian concept) but it had to do with being capable of making one's own decisions. Homosexual rape of defeated enemies however was quite common.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/gayvik.html

[TOrrock]

Like prison.

:eek:



I confess Viking culture isn't really one of my strong points so I did have to rely on the internet to reply...

I came across a pretty good (with bibliography) website from Fordham University dealing with Viking Culture which addresses homosexuality...

As a "lifestyle" homosexuality would have been frowned upon but not because homosexual sex was considered perverse (perversion was usually a Christian concept) but it had to do with being capable of making one's own decisions. Homosexual rape of defeated enemies however was quite common.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/gayvik.html

[120mm]

I don't subscribe to the idea that warriors can be "made".

I think that warrior cultures are those that encouraged and rewarded those who exhibit certain personality traits and mental/emotional capacity for war.

The social/biological benefits are obvious; they are also self-limiting. Warriors simply have a limited role in more highly ordered societies.

I know growing up, that certain boys just were warriors. War and combat as game-playing dominated their every waking minute. Many/most grew completely out of it, but a very few retained those traits despite societies' attempts to socialize it out of them.

Here is where I disagree with Grossman: Warriors are set up to kill; basic training only re-grants them permission in a socially sanctioned setting.

Those who are not warriors by nature can be dressed up, trained to use the implements of war and even convinced that they are, indeed warriors, but once the chaos of real combat occurs, they almost instantly become marginally useful and even an impediment to those who are set up to fight.

[tampam4]

I confess Viking culture isn't really one of my strong points so I did have to rely on the internet to reply...

I came across a pretty good (with bibliography) website from Fordham University dealing with Viking Culture which addresses homosexuality...

As a "lifestyle" homosexuality would have been frowned upon but not because homosexual sex was considered perverse (perversion was usually a Christian concept) but it had to do with being capable of making one's own decisions. Homosexual rape of defeated enemies however was quite common.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/gayvik.html

I must fully admit, I was wrong on this one. First time I've heard it, no mention of it during my 11 years of schooling over in Iceland!

120mm, there is nothing but truth it what you wrote. Paganism is one of those cultures where great true warriors were put up on a very high pedestal. Very well written text you have right there.

[Mjolnir]

I don't subscribe to the idea that warriors can be "made".

I think that warrior cultures are those that encouraged and rewarded those who exhibit certain personality traits and mental/emotional capacity for war.

The social/biological benefits are obvious; they are also self-limiting. Warriors simply have a limited role in more highly ordered societies.

Here is where I disagree with Grossman: Warriors are set up to kill; basic training only re-grants them permission in a socially sanctioned setting.

Those who are not warriors by nature can be dressed up, trained to use the implements of war and even convinced that they are, indeed warriors, but once the chaos of real combat occurs, they almost instantly become marginally useful and even an impediment to those who are set up to fight.

Very insightful.

[Mjolnir]

There are obviously warrior cultures within African, Native American and Asian cultures. Without going into much detail I have found them to be remarkably similar or to have many parallels with one another. Honor, Courage and Strength seem to be the key characteristics of all of them. The differences (to me) seem to be cultural not philosophical - for the most part - but there are unique differences, too.

[SteyrAUG]

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/DarkKnight088/Tomoe-HachimanCrest.jpg

Hachiman is the Shinto god of war, and divine protector of Japan and the Japanese people. The name means God of Eight Banners, referring to the eight heavenly banners that signaled the birth of the divine Emperor Ōjin. His symbolic animal and messenger is the dove.

Throughout the Japanese medieval period, the worship of Hachiman spread throughout Japan among not only samurai, but also the peasantry. So much so was his popularity that presently there are 25000 Shinto shrines in Japan dedicated to Hachiman, the second most numerous after shrines dedicated to Inari. Usa Shrine in Usa, Oita prefecture is head shrine of all of these shrines and together with Iwashimizu Hachiman-gū, Hakozaki-gū and Tsurugaoka Hachiman-gū, are noted as the most important of all the shrines dedicated to Hachiman.

The crest of Hachiman is in the design of a mitsudomoe, a round whirlpool or vortex with three heads swirling right or left. Many samurai clans used this crest as their own, ironically including some that traced their ancestry back to the mortal enemy of the Minamoto, the Taira of the Emperor Kammu line (Kammu Heishi).