View Full Version : Why isn't this scope more popular?
No Bananas
05-30-10, 08:29
I hear a lot of folks talking about the need for a 1-8x type scope. This one does that (well, it's 1.25). It has a long 6" eye relief, but it's supposed to be constant. It also has a standard plex type reticle, no illumination, and no BDC. So, I'm guessing that those missing elements are keeping it from popularity. I'd be willing to give it a go, provided the eye relief was constant throughout zoom.
http://swfa.com/Bushnell-125-8x32-Elite-6500-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P13138.aspx
http://swfa.com/images/651832m.jpg
I hear a lot of folks talking about the need for a 1-8x type scope. This one does that (well, it's 1.25). It has a long 6" eye relief, but it's supposed to be constant. It also has a standard plex type reticle, no illumination, and no BDC. So, I'm guessing that those missing elements are keeping it from popularity. I'd be willing to give it a go, provided the eye relief was constant throughout zoom.
http://swfa.com/Bushnell-125-8x32-Elite-6500-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P13138.aspx
http://swfa.com/images/651832m.jpg
I am guessing the quality of the scope (components) and the glass is also keeping folks away.
C4
No Bananas
05-30-10, 08:42
Do continue. I don't know, but I thought Bushnell 4200/6500 Elite was good stuff.
Bushnell is not known for top shelf glass...their market is lower to middle end.
Do continue. I don't know, but I thought Bushnell 4200/6500 Elite was good stuff.
The elite is the best one they make.
Still would not be my first or second choice though.
C4
No Bananas
05-30-10, 11:09
Sadly, a medium priced optic is what I can afford for my project. I want to save $$$ to spend on a long range optic/project, which is next. This is a medium range optic/set up so the magnification of this scope seemed optimal. I'm also considering a Burris XTR 1-4 (which is really stretching the budget), or a Leupold 2.5-8x VXIII. Something around the $400 price range is optimal. I know, I know, my choices are limited and my expectations should be, too. My personal preference is an optic wil minimal or no eye relief variance.
Why not a Leupold VX-2 1-4x20?
I have the XTR-14, 1-4x scope, PM me if you have any questions. I am planning up a bolt rifle build and am leaning to the Burris XTR 4-16-50 for that. The Burris LE direct program is tough to beat if it applies.
Sadly, a medium priced optic is what I can afford for my project. I want to save $$$ to spend on a long range optic/project, which is next. This is a medium range optic/set up so the magnification of this scope seemed optimal. I'm also considering a Burris XTR 1-4 (which is really stretching the budget), or a Leupold 2.5-8x VXIII. Something around the $400 price range is optimal. I know, I know, my choices are limited and my expectations should be, too. My personal preference is an optic wil minimal or no eye relief variance.
The XTR would be a better choice I think.
Personally, I would save a little more money and look at Vortex.
C4
No Bananas
05-30-10, 12:40
Why not a Leupold VX-2 1-4x20?
I was actually also looking at the Leupold VXIII 1.5-5. Tell me about the VX-2 model.
No Bananas
05-30-10, 12:41
The XTR would be a better choice I think.
Personally, I would save a little more money and look at Vortex.
C4
I assume you're talking about the Vortex HD 1-4 model? Why would you pick this one? Constant Eye Relief?Better than Nightforce?
I was actually also looking at the Leupold VXIII 1.5-5. Tell me about the VX-2 model.
I have 2, one is mounted on a shorty 45/70 and has taken all the abuse that can dish out with heavy handloads, the other is on my Ar as I do alot of hunting. For $300 or less its hard to beat, lots of eye relief, will take a beating and its a Leupold.
they're hunting scopes.. you're not gonna get much "precision" out of them. but like ryan says, they're tuff. thats what leupold does.
i have a VXII that's taken some pretty serious abuse through the moutains of oregon in the last 12(?) years, atop a magnum and then a recce. they'll give you DCOM at any distance you're capable of, but don't expect tight groups unless you've got a super-glue cheekweld.
they're hunting scopes.. you're not gonna get much "precision" out of them. but like ryan says, they're tuff. thats what leupold does.
i have a VXII that's taken some pretty serious abuse through the moutains of oregon in the last 12(?) years, atop a magnum and then a recce. they'll give you DCOM at any distance you're capable of, but don't expect tight groups unless you've got a super-glue cheekweld.
They do good out to 300 yards on the AR, the 45 on the other hand with LE bullets 200 is about max
The Bushnell Elite series is IMHO the best deal out there for good glass. As good if not better than Leupolds Vari X II (although I still have one Vx II on my .270) and the pricing is great. I've beat the tar out of the 3 I have during the last 7 years or so of hunting seasons (I average 50-60 days per season) and they have held up well. I run them on a .260, a muzzleloader and a 7mm TCU with no problems. Also have one on my T/C Contender .22LR match squirrel gun. Dawn til dark they work well. Is there better glass out there? Yup but not in their price range.
All that said, I run a Leupold 1.5 -4 on my AR.:D
Sadly, a medium priced optic is what I can afford for my project. I want to save $$$ to spend on a long range optic/project, which is next. This is a medium range optic/set up so the magnification of this scope seemed optimal. I'm also considering a Burris XTR 1-4 (which is really stretching the budget), or a Leupold 2.5-8x VXIII. Something around the $400 price range is optimal. I know, I know, my choices are limited and my expectations should be, too. My personal preference is an optic wil minimal or no eye relief variance.
Bananas...my dad has a xtr 1-4 he may part with if you want me to ask. It's like new in box but he's thinking of just going to a red dot.
No Bananas
05-30-10, 17:48
One thing that concerns me about the XTR is that the adjustments are 1/2 MOA instead of 1/4. When I settle down on the bench and I want to shoot groups is that an issue at 300 yds and in? I won't be looking to shoot gropus and further than 300.
Also, how big (MOA) is the center dot?
No Bananas
05-30-10, 17:59
I'm also considering the Sightron Big SKy II 1.25-5 (also 1/2 MOA adjustments)
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=277536
http://media.midwayusa.com/ProductImages/Large/277536.jpg
FWIW the Leupold has 1/4 moa adjustments
One thing that concerns me about the XTR is that the adjustments are 1/2 MOA instead of 1/4. When I settle down on the bench and I want to shoot groups is that an issue at 300 yds and in? I won't be looking to shoot gropus and further than 300.
Also, how big (MOA) is the center dot?
Good question...it's mounted on one of his carbines but he has not even sighted it in. I can't give you a hands on answer either as I've never fired with one. This may give me a reason to go play this next week.;) I may be all wet but from what little i have messed with his xtr is that it really is more of a minute of angle noggin scope like an acog compared to a precision between the eyes 300yd sniper reticle. FWIW.
No Bananas
06-01-10, 17:40
Is this Special Purpose Reticle from Leupold seems like it would be good to me. It has the circle for close quick work and seems like it would be good for more precise work with the holdover marks.
http://images2.opticsplanet.com/640-640/opplanet-leupold-67905-3.jpg
http://www.smithenterprise.com/imagesprod/SPR_Subtensions02.gif
they're hunting scopes.. you're not gonna get much "precision" out of them. but like ryan says, they're tuff. thats what leupold does.
i have a VXII that's taken some pretty serious abuse through the moutains of oregon in the last 12(?) years, atop a magnum and then a recce. they'll give you DCOM at any distance you're capable of, but don't expect tight groups unless you've got a super-glue cheekweld.
Having better glass does not relieve the shooter of their obligation to maintain good form and hard hold on the rifle. If the scope holds its zero the shooter should be able to shoot tight groups assuming he/she can fix on a point of reference to aim at. There is no such thing as a "forgiving" scope. A good scope just allows the shooter to shoot to their full potential (and that of the rifle and ammo).
RE: VXII vs. VXIII vs. VX3
I believe that current VXII glass is the same as what Leupold puts on their new Mark AR lines of scopes, which are roughly in the same ballpark as far as price is concerned.
VXIII glass was the same as the glass put in the Mark 4 LR line. I think the latest incarnation, dubbed the VX3, has better than Mark 4 glass (though only marginally). Mark 4 is way more expensive, but you paying for expensive turrets and reticles. I think that structurally they are now otherwise the same.
The VX3 is Leupold's flagship scope. VXIIIs are pretty close to the same thing and can be had for bargains now that the VX3 is out. Either way they are considerably more expensive than the VXII, but the glass is thought to be way better.
I also have a VXII on a hunting rifle. It takes a beating but its a killer.
Dom
Alaskapopo
06-03-10, 00:54
I hear a lot of folks talking about the need for a 1-8x type scope. This one does that (well, it's 1.25). It has a long 6" eye relief, but it's supposed to be constant. It also has a standard plex type reticle, no illumination, and no BDC. So, I'm guessing that those missing elements are keeping it from popularity. I'd be willing to give it a go, provided the eye relief was constant throughout zoom.
http://swfa.com/Bushnell-125-8x32-Elite-6500-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P13138.aspx
http://swfa.com/images/651832m.jpg
I had the 2.5-16 version. Its actually a quality optic. However the down sides are. No illumination at all. Second the reticle options are not very fast to use. Mine had mil dots. So even if you did not require illumination you were stuck with a slow to use reticle design.
Pat
No Bananas
06-03-10, 10:12
That has been something that I'm having to consider a reticle that can be fast, and has BDC for the 200-300 yds (or more, on very rare occasion). For those reasons, I'm considering the Burris XTR 1-4 and the Leupold MR/T 1.5-5 with the special purpose reticle. I like the extra magnification of the Leupold, and I think I like that reticle better.
lethal dose
06-03-10, 10:21
I assume you're talking about the Vortex HD 1-4 model? Why would you pick this one? Constant Eye Relief?Better than Nightforce?
No, not better then nightforce.
No, not better then nightforce.
I am going to change out my 1-4 NF with the Vortex 1-4HD. I think it might actually be a better scope.
C4
lethal dose
06-03-10, 10:46
I am going to change out my 1-4 NF with the Vortex 1-4HD. I think it might actually be a better scope.
C4
Interesting. How do you base your claim? My buddy has a higher power nf and the glass is stunning on it. Personally, I've never looked through a vortex hd but have read lots of good things about them... but I have also read a few spotty reviews. Maybe I jumped the gun. With that being said, I (personally) wouldn't buy either. If I was going to buy a 1-4, I'd go with trijicon's offering... hands down.
BLACK LION
06-03-10, 14:10
The Sightrons have received good reviews.
I have an elite 4200 that I will never get rid of since I personally beat the piss out of it on my .50 before transfering to my 6.8... now its going on my 5.45 Saiga.
I was very interested in the elite 6500 1-8x but there is no illumination in the reticle. My 4200 has an illuminated dot.
It is japanese glass and it is very clear. They are heavy scopes too and very rugged.
Why not IOR 1.1-4X or 1.5-8x26???
Why not a Trijicon Accupoint 1.25-4x???
No Bananas
06-03-10, 22:38
Why not IOR 1.1-4X or 1.5-8x26???
Why not a Trijicon Accupoint 1.25-4x???
The IOR is a little heavy, but it's damned near perfect. At $1359, there's no way I could afford it:(.
I'm leaning more toward the Burris XTR or the Leupold MR/T 1.5-5 w/ no illumination. The illumination on scopes (except the trijicons) never show up in daylight. I like the reticle of the Leupold the best, and the added magnification, but I'm not at all a fan of the variable eye relief.
lethal dose
06-03-10, 22:51
Although the trijicon accupoint 1-4 is more $ then the 1.25-4, I'd spend the extra $ and grab the 1x.
Alaskapopo
06-03-10, 23:50
The IOR is a little heavy, but it's damned near perfect. At $1359, there's no way I could afford it:(.
I'm leaning more toward the Burris XTR or the Leupold MR/T 1.5-5 w/ no illumination. The illumination on scopes (except the trijicons) never show up in daylight. .
That is 100% wrong. The illumination on the Meopta and the Swarovski show up even in the brightest sun light. I have used my Swarovski in in the brightest conditions possible in Texas and the reticle is light very well. My friends Meopta also did fine. Sounds like you don't have much experience in this area.
Pat
No Bananas
06-04-10, 08:47
I should have said that the mid-priced scopes don't illuminate well during the day. Although, the Meopta probably could fit into mid-priced category. Meopta's reticle isn't for me, as I think it is more geared for quick work than exact work. I'm sure many have good experience with it though. A reticle somewhere in between those two poles is what I'm looking for.
The illuminated Swarvoski's start at $1800, I believe. It wouldn't matter if the a Swarovski could jump off and fly300 yards, smack the target and fly back. At $1800, unless I win the lottery there's no way I'll be able to afford one.
BLACK LION
06-04-10, 11:25
The ill-dot on the elite 4200 shows up in daylight and has an intensity adjustment knob as well.
The IOR CRT 1.1-4x26 can be had for around 850.00 if one is frugal in shopping.
No Bananas
06-04-10, 11:49
The illuminated reticle isn't a big thing for me. I'm in AZ, and few will stand up to the sun, here. The Aimpoints and Trijicons (fober optic), of course work well. In fact, the fiber optic Trijicons can work a little too well, and you have to turn the cover over the fiber optic coils. That IOR 1.25-4 looks like a great scope, with a good reticle (even if the illumination doesn't stand up to the sun).
If I were in your shoes, for a Noveske Recon (which I'm assuming is what it's for), I'd go with the Leupold 1.5-5x. Solid mid-grade optic with good precision capabilities and decent illumination.
In response to the Accupoints, I personally dislike their reticle offerings for precision work (ACOGs are a different story).
I am going to change out my 1-4 NF with the Vortex 1-4HD. I think it might actually be a better scope.
C4
What makes you say that? Have you handled a PST before? What did you like better about it over the NF?
I personally don't like them at this point (although I haven't handled one yet). From the specs alone, the combination of attributes just screams "tacticool." It's a 1-4x... but comes standard with target turrets that look like towering monstrosities on a scope that size; the reticle is super-busy, and the adjustments don't make sense either (.2 mil/.5 MOA adjustments?). It's like they tried to combine all of the attributes of what they deemed as tactical and threw them onto a 1-4x optic. I mean, turrets are ok, but virtually no one that needs them needs them on a 1-4x scope; and the few that do will need finer adjustments than 1/2 MOA / 1/5 mills. Also factor in that the reticle is SFP and the circular markings become a waste of reticle space (a simple red dot with on/off would have been better).
I really, truly wanted to like this scope, but after going over it, it seemed like they focused more on making another toy that sold into their "We'd list our clientele, but they're classified" marketing line (yes, their brochure actually says that) instead of making a solid 1-4x optic that fulfills the shortcomings of current scopes.
Just my .02. Sorry for the rant.
BLACK LION
06-04-10, 15:43
Correction...
Its 1.1-4x26.... I made an error by typing 1.25.
The CRT would be my choice.
No Bananas
06-05-10, 12:13
OK, I'm thinking out loud here. I know this'll sound funky. When I shoot for accuracy, or if I were to do a three gun or what have you I'd be shooting heavier bullets (75 gr.+) through this Noveske. I've heard (but still need to research a bit) that the 7.62 reticles and hold overs do allright with heavier 5.56 ammo. ??? Anyway, what if I got the Burris XTR 1.5-6 w/ 7.62 retifle? It has more magnification (which I'd like), is only 2 oz heavier than the 1-4x, has minimal eye relief shift, good reticle, the 1.5 won't be that bad for close in, and w/ the Larue mounts comes in at under $900. Sounds like everything I want. Thoughts?
lethal dose
06-05-10, 14:12
I think you should look at the trijicon accupoint Tr24.
OK, I'm thinking out loud here. I know this'll sound funky. When I shoot for accuracy, or if I were to do a three gun or what have you I'd be shooting heavier bullets (75 gr.+) through this Noveske. I've heard (but still need to research a bit) that the 7.62 reticles and hold overs do allright with heavier 5.56 ammo. ??? Anyway, what if I got the Burris XTR 1.5-6 w/ 7.62 retifle? It has more magnification (which I'd like), is only 2 oz heavier than the 1-4x, has minimal eye relief shift, good reticle, the 1.5 won't be that bad for close in, and w/ the Larue mounts comes in at under $900. Sounds like everything I want. Thoughts?
You're confusing precision shooting and practical shooting. What works for one is generally the opposite of what works for the other.
If you're going to precision shoot (meaning making small groups at various distances), you want a scope that has:
a fine/thin reticle
the ability to dial in your dope via turrets (either exposed or capped)
the ability to range with your reticle (ergo TMR, mil-dot, etc)
If you must have a BDC, then the scope needs one that matches perfectly to the loads you'll be shooting.
In other words, everything is geared to making your round hit exactly where you want it.
Conversely, if you want to engage in practical shooting, then you want your scope to have:
a bright, medium-sized (2-4 MOA), preferably daylight-visible illuminated reticle that draws your eye to it immediately
capped turrets to avoid the scope getting knocked off zero
a more forgiving, generalized BDC that works with multiple loads (as you'll probably be shooting whatever ammo is cheapest)
The difference between the two is that precision shooting is geared towards slow, precise shots and practical shooting is hitting man-sized targets quickly within a general area.
There's VERY few scopes that work for both roles. The S&B Short Dot, the new Leupold 1-8x, and (to a lesser extent) the Nightforce 2.5-10x32 with the Velocity reticle. In your price range, the Nightforce will probably be your best bet, although it lacks the daytime-visible illumination. The Trijicon TR-24 would also work, but it's more of a compromise than a solution (though, for the money, you probably won't find a better optic cheaper).
Unless going with one of the above scopes, it's simply best to pick the role you'd like to perform more, pick a scope that fits that role, and get it. You can always buy another optic for a different role later.
On that note, a Noveske Recon is set up for precision shooting, so I'd go for a precision SPR-type optic, but that's just me.
No Bananas
06-05-10, 20:02
Thanks for the further info and opionions. Hmmmmm........
BLACK LION
06-07-10, 13:44
Silly me....This one should seal the deal.
Check this out:
http://www.blackweaponsarmory.com/magento/ar15-optics-mounts/horus-vision-scopes/horus-vision-blackbird-1-5-8-illuminated-scope.html
"You are thinking outside the box on the 1.5-6x option...the 1-4x will eventually have you wanting more magnification once you find yourself walking those projos out to greater distances."
Very true, I have found with my XTR14, 1-4X that I would like more magnification.
No Bananas
06-07-10, 14:18
If I had 900.00 for a scope, it would not be a Burris or a Bushnell.
You are thinking outside the box on the 1.5-6x option...the 1-4x will eventually have you wanting more magnification once you find yourself walking those projos out to greater distances.
I originally went with a 1-4x for my 6.8x43 and quickly found myself in need of at least 6x if not 8x.
Did you try "WTS-IOR 1-8X" in google??? Maybe you can find one for under a grand???
The price tag of the Burris includes the awesome Larue Mount which I'd like to get unless I can find an affordable IOR w/ a 35mm tube.
Good idea on the google search. Thanks.
BLACK LION
06-07-10, 14:57
The Horus line gets mixed reviews and it seems they have a warranty for only a year.
There is also the Meopta Artemis 1.5-6x...
GeezerHood
06-10-10, 00:16
I saw a bunch of people dogging the Bushnells. The Bushnell Elite 6500 series are excellent scopes for the money.
I use them on 50 BMGs, 338 Lapuas and all kinds of ARs. Haven't had a lick of trouble with any of them and they give you more for your money than anything Leupold offers. I particularly like the 4.5-30x. I just wish they would put a decent reticle in them but heck, leupold doesn't have a good reticle on ANY of their scopes either!
Bushnell, Sightron and Leupold need to look at what is being offered by IOR Valdada, Nightforce and Vortex as far as reticles go and catch up.
have you given the millett dms-1 any thought? i have one and the the glass is clear ( i dont have a nf to compare with but i didnt spend nf money either)1-4 magnification and a lighted retical. all reviews i read are good and im satisfied with mine.
Alaskapopo
06-14-10, 23:09
have you given the millett dms-1 any thought? i have one and the the glass is clear ( i dont have a nf to compare with but i didnt spend nf money either)1-4 magnification and a lighted retical. all reviews i read are good and im satisfied with mine.
A friend of mine has one. It is blurry around the edge giving you a fish eye felling. The illumination is not daylight visible. Its an ok scope if you are on a tight budget. But there are far better options out there.
Pat
I am going to change out my 1-4 NF with the Vortex 1-4HD. I think it might actually be a better scope.
C4
What is the scoop on the components used in the Vortex Razor HD line? Is it fully made in the US?
have you given the millett dms-1 any thought? i have one and the the glass is clear ( i dont have a nf to compare with but i didnt spend nf money either)1-4 magnification and a lighted retical. all reviews i read are good and im satisfied with mine.
I did and am very happy with it. I bought the Millett DMS/Burris PEPR combo at SWFA. The more I tried to save for a high end optic, the more I found other ways to spend the money on things like ammo, training, rifle improvements and a middy build. I'm a working stiff, so plunking 2k on an optic just isn't going to happen. I do notice a bit of "fisheye" shooting at 100-yards and at 1x, but it's not anything that bothers me. The scope seems to come to its own at 1.5, which is where I ran it for a recent class in the pouring rain. The clink of steel 1/4 IDPA's at 100-yards through a barricade sounded pretty nice to me. The donut dot does indeed wash out in bright light, but the black reticle is easy to pick up and I ran a few drills with the front cap down and shooting for center mass on the move had good results, as did shooting with the cap up and no illumination on at all. I like it - don't love it, but it's an exceptional value and a nice scope...
Still, if I had the budget, I'd likely go Leupold or Vortex, but the Millett does what it should at a price that works for the time being. It's no Schmidt-Bender, but it's accurate and rugged enough. I'm no threat at Camp Perry, but that's not too bad for 50-yards laying in the rain...
http://m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=5331&stc=1&d=1277296840
I have had 8 or so Bushnells and Bausch & Lombs from up and down the price spectrum and they all had one thing in common: within 3 years of purchase, something went bad.
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