Walkie-Talkies?

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

I read thru the Comm thread, but while that is all interesting, I'm looking more for something that would allow family members in the same city to communicate- family members that have a hard time working a cell phone let alone a radio. I did a search on 'walkie-talkies' and got two hits.

I see the walkie-talkies at the Radioshack website touting things like up to 25 mile range and different radio types, but reviews say they only work for a mile? My family members are all with in 1.5 miles (linear), in an urban environment, and during the day, all would be with in a 5 mile bubble 95% of the time. Also wanted a radio in case we had to move or leave and need to caravann.

Do any of these run on AA batteries? I'm trying to standardize everything on AAs. Looking for like 4 units, plus like two spares to deep store and protect from EMP- which I know is a whole other thread.

What is the best options for short range comms that neophytes could use?

[Outlander Systems]

Motorola XTN-series aren't bad. They hold up to some wicked abuse, and can take AA in a pinch. They all come with a built-in rechargeable battery and base-station for recharging.

The most I've been able to milk out of them is ~3 miles.

There's a plethora of accessories for them as well.

ETA: I've got a couple of them at work that are well over 6 years old, with 40+ hours a week of use on them that are still kicking. I've personally seen on thrown 75 - 100 feet, land on pavement and still function. The only gap in the armour is that after 6 years of abuse, the PTT button's contact gets unreliable.

[Jerm]

I have a set of the Cobra GA CC3's(GMRS/FRS).They may be discontinued as I'm having a hard time finding a link.IIRC they were advertised as having a 18 mile range.

They have always been good for at least 2 miles over uneven ground(hills/bends/forrest of SW-VA) and often work up to 3-4 miles.

Run on 2 AAs.

They look just like these(and the features/specs look the same) but it's a different model # and battery set-up(AAA)...

http://www.zalmar.com/detail-Communications-overview-PR_4200_2_WX_VP.htm

[bkb0000]

i think the "range" advertised is for direct line of sight, zero humidity, with no solar activity, and no other RF interference. so basically, the middle of intergalactic deep space.

for any kind of LOS range, anything over 7 miles, even on the ocean (actually, especially on the ocean), is actually impossible- you lose LOS at about 7 miles from man-hight due to the curvature of the earth.

we used to use the Motorola Talkabouts at work, about 7-8 years ago. they advertise a 20 mile range now, but it was only advertised as 3, i think, back then, and we'd usually get half that. i seriously doubt you're going to get any better than about that in an urban environment without amplification

[kmrtnsn]

It sounds like the best "radio" solution to your environment is Sprint/Nextel PTT.

[QuietShootr]

It sounds like the best "radio" solution to your environment is Sprint/Nextel PTT.

Yeah. All kidding aside, I don't see this meeting with much success.

Only way to know is to try an experiment. Go buy a couple of the GMRS/FRS HTs and try them out and see if you can link up. If/when it doesn't work, come on back and we'll get you sorted out.

[kmrtnsn]

I am not a fan of the S/N PTT either but where else are you going to get the range, the pseudo trunking ability, and the interior reception for less than $5,000.00 a unit without an agency type relay contract with Motorola? GMSR/FRS doesn't work in the same building half the time, let alone across town within the OP's five mile urban bubble.

[QuietShootr]

I am not a fan of the S/N PTT either but where else are you going to get the range, the pseudo trunking ability, and the interior reception for less than $5,000.00 a unit without an agency type relay contract with Motorola? GMSR/FRS doesn't work in the same building half the time, let alone across town within the OP's five mile urban bubble.

Agreed, I don't think they're a survival solution though, because they're just as dependent on infrastructure disruption as a regular cell phone.

[arbninftry]

I read thru the Comm thread, but while that is all interesting, I'm looking more for something that would allow family members in the same city to communicate- family members that have a hard time working a cell phone let alone a radio. I did a search on 'walkie-talkies' and got two hits.

I see the walkie-talkies at the Radioshack website touting things like up to 25 mile range and different radio types, but reviews say they only work for a mile? My family members are all with in 1.5 miles (linear), in an urban environment, and during the day, all would be with in a 5 mile bubble 95% of the time. Also wanted a radio in case we had to move or leave and need to caravann.

Do any of these run on AA batteries? I'm trying to standardize everything on AAs. Looking for like 4 units, plus like two spares to deep store and protect from EMP- which I know is a whole other thread.

What is the best options for short range comms that neophytes could use?

Or is there a way to magnify, like a directional antenna, to "exagerate the signal"? And make it reach out, or are you better off using a CB?

[QuietShootr]

Or is there a way to magnify, like a directional antenna, to "exagerate the signal"? And make it reach out, or are you better off using a CB?

Without getting too far off in the technical weeds, the simple answer is no. A FRS capable radio, by law, can't be capable of having an external antenna attached...therefore, it's hard to do much with them other than to get the whole radio (and the operator) up high. This is usually less than convenient.

This is why we have been encouraging the use of commercial grade equipment (at least). A commercial or ham HT that is capable of being connected to an external antenna could have a simple antenna made that could be thrown up into a tree to get additional height - since height is range when it comes to VHF/UHF simplex radio.

Also - if you are trying to communicate with someone who has a hard time negotiating a cell phone, their conception of radio is likely to be what they see cops using: you have an HT, you talk into it, and the person you're trying to reach comes back clearly and legibly. They don't understand that the HT is just the part of the multi-thousand dollar system that they're not seeing, and they get frustrated and angry when their Wal-Mart blister-pak Dale Earnhardt model FRS/GMRS HTs that were advertised to go 25 miles suddenly won't make it to the next block.

That's kind of a tough scenario with what we know. Why don't you back up and ask yourself what you're trying to achieve?

[QuietShootr]

Let me put this another way: Due to varying terrain and terrain features between us, it takes 50 watts of FM-VHF to reliably communicate (98% availability) with another land station less than 8 linear miles from me, when we are both using 7' copper j-pole antennas mounted about 10' high.

What do you think you're going to be able to do with 1 watt, a no-gain integral antenna, and urban RF interference to boot? Plus an inexperienced operator who won't know instinctively to go for the high ground and toward a window?

300 -700 yards is my prediction for 90% reliable comms.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Agreed, I don't think they're a survival solution though, because they're just as dependent on infrastructure disruption as a regular cell phone.


They don't understand that the HT is just the part of the multi-thousand dollar system that they're not seeing, and they get frustrated and angry when their Wal-Mart blister-pak Dale Earnhardt model FRS/GMRS HTs that were advertised to go 25 miles suddenly won't make it to the next block.

That's kind of a tough scenario with what we know. Why don't you back up and ask yourself what you're trying to achieve?

Mainly thinking of if the cell networks go down or are busy. I think I was drawn in by the advertised range of the models (got a lead on the Dale Earnhardt model ;) ) and realizing the utility of being able to communicate on the move. That and I am totally electronics dumb and the comms thread made my head spin.

Might just get a couple of radios and run them and see what happens.

What is the difference between GMRS/FRS and eXRS?

[Thomas M-4]

Let me put this another way: Due to varying terrain and terrain features between us, it takes 50 watts of FM-VHF to reliably communicate (98% availability) with another land station less than 8 linear miles from me, when we are both using 7' copper j-pole antennas mounted about 10' high.

What do you think you're going to be able to do with 1 watt, a no-gain integral antenna, and urban RF interference to boot? Plus an inexperienced operator who won't know instinctively to go for the high ground and toward a window?

300 -700 yards is my prediction for 90% reliable comms.

+1 from my limited experience
Do they make repeaters for FRS ? Guess it still wouldn't help it enough.

[QuietShootr]

+1 from my limited experience
Do they make repeaters for FRS ? Guess it still wouldn't help it enough.

No. FRS is FRS, which is to say it's a low-power limited range communication system, and repeaters would be illegal.

[QuietShootr]

Mainly thinking of if the cell networks go down or are busy. I think I was drawn in by the advertised range of the models (got a lead on the Dale Earnhardt model ;) ) and realizing the utility of being able to communicate on the move. That and I am totally electronics dumb and the comms thread made my head spin.

Might just get a couple of radios and run them and see what happens.

What is the difference between GMRS/FRS and eXRS?

GMRS is a different animal from FRS. GMRS is a licensed radio service, even though there are a lot of combination radios out there right now. You're SUPPOSED to get an FCC license before transmitting on GMRS frequencies, though most of the blister-pack radio crowd doesn't bother.

The essential difference is that GMRS radios are allowed much higher output power than FRS, and they can have the ability to attach external antennas and use repeaters. In order to get those capabilities, you have to buy a real GMRS radio instead of the GMRS/FRS combo units, which are limited by the legal limitations imposed by FRS regulations.

eXRS is still another proposition. It's a digital spread-spectrum signal in the 900 mHz industrial, scientific, and medical band. I have a pair of the TSX300 radios, and they are cool indeed...except that they are just as fragile as any consumer radio. If someone would make a commercial grade eXRS I would probably buy a few for use as short-range tactical radios. They are probably the most secure radio voice communication available for anything resembling a reasonable price (provided your adversary does not have national-level SIGINT capabilities, in which case you're an idiot if you are relying on a $100 pair of radios to keep your ass out of a sling). No scanner will receive their transmissions, and even another eXRS radio can't do it unless they have your channel code. There are over 9 billion possible channels in this system, so the chances of someone getting it is low indeed.

That being said - it's still a low-power simplex UHF radio, so it suffers from all the range limitations of that breed. They work fine for a half-mile or so in varied urban conditions. The difference between the analog FRS radios and the digital eXRS radio is that with the analog signal, you get fading and static that can reduce the signal to an unusable level before it fades entirely. The eXRS is digital, which essentially means it's there until it isn't...once the receiver isn't getting enough data to piece together a voice signal, it just drops out.

The units themselves seem fragile, and unlikely to survive a drop to concrete. If someone like Icom or Yaesu would make a VX-8 grade HT with eXRS, I'd probably be on it like flies on horseshit.

[arbninftry]

GMRS is a different animal from FRS. GMRS is a licensed radio service, even though there are a lot of combination radios out there right now. You're SUPPOSED to get an FCC license before transmitting on GMRS frequencies, though most of the blister-pack radio crowd doesn't bother.

The essential difference is that GMRS radios are allowed much higher output power than FRS, and they can have the ability to attach external antennas and use repeaters. In order to get those capabilities, you have to buy a real GMRS radio instead of the GMRS/FRS combo units, which are limited by the legal limitations imposed by FRS regulations.

eXRS is still another proposition. It's a digital spread-spectrum signal in the 900 mHz industrial, scientific, and medical band. I have a pair of the TSX300 radios, and they are cool indeed...except that they are just as fragile as any consumer radio. If someone would make a commercial grade eXRS I would probably buy a few for use as short-range tactical radios. They are probably the most secure radio voice communication available for anything resembling a reasonable price (provided your adversary does not have national-level SIGINT capabilities, in which case you're an idiot if you are relying on a $100 pair of radios to keep your ass out of a sling). No scanner will receive their transmissions, and even another eXRS radio can't do it unless they have your channel code. There are over 9 billion possible channels in this system, so the chances of someone getting it is low indeed.

That being said - it's still a low-power simplex UHF radio, so it suffers from all the range limitations of that breed. They work fine for a half-mile or so in varied urban conditions. The difference between the analog FRS radios and the digital eXRS radio is that with the analog signal, you get fading and static that can reduce the signal to an unusable level before it fades entirely. The eXRS is digital, which essentially means it's there until it isn't...once the receiver isn't getting enough data to piece together a voice signal, it just drops out.

The units themselves seem fragile, and unlikely to survive a drop to concrete. If someone like Icom or Yaesu would make a VX-8 grade HT with eXRS, I'd probably be on it like flies on horseshit.

Thanks, I have been in the commo thread a lot. Trying to wrap my little brain around things there. I appreciate your insight.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

QuietShooter- thanks for all your help. I'm surprised that I haven't found very much on line about this.u

It seems the only eXRS models on the market are Tri-Square models? Are they that new?

The eXRS models can sync up more than two radios at a time correct?

If I get GMRS handhelds, does my getting a licencse allow family memebers to use them also to communicate with me?

I think this is where this segways into the real Comm thread- it seems that the GMRS/FRS and eXRS are good options at half a mile - a mile if you are lucky. What would be a good example of a true full-power GMRS radio with the ability to attach a real antenna to it? Is this where marine type radios come in like:

http://www.gigaweb.com/products/view/13847/marine-hand-held-dual-band-transceiver.html

[QuietShootr]

Tri-Square appears to be the only eXRS manufacturer. They've been around for a couple of years, and they really aren't catching on. Yes, they can have talkgroups and single radio to single radio conversations inside that talkgroup. They're really very versatile, but their cheeseball construction keeps them from being serious pieces.

A GMRS license can cover a family at a single residence. The better way to do it would be to get an LLC and license the corporation, then make everyone an employee.

Marine radios are not GMRS. GMRS is a specific radio service in the UHF band, marine VHF is a completely different service and frequency. It's illegal to use marine VHF for what you're talking about using these for. Your truly best bet would be to get everyone to get ham licenses and then you can take advantage of the wide selection of radios and modes, and you can take advantage of the existing ham repeater systems.


QuietShooter- thanks for all your help. I'm surprised that I haven't found very much on line about this.u

It seems the only eXRS models on the market are Tri-Square models? Are they that new?

The eXRS models can sync up more than two radios at a time correct?

If I get GMRS handhelds, does my getting a licencse allow family memebers to use them also to communicate with me?

I think this is where this segways into the real Comm thread- it seems that the GMRS/FRS and eXRS are good options at half a mile - a mile if you are lucky. What would be a good example of a true full-power GMRS radio with the ability to attach a real antenna to it? Is this where marine type radios come in like:

http://www.gigaweb.com/products/view/13847/marine-hand-held-dual-band-transceiver.html

[fixer]

No. FRS is FRS, which is to say it's a low-power limited range communication system, and repeaters would be illegal.

hmmm, i don't have the manual handy, but i seem to recall my Icom FRS offering a "repeater" mode. but i never played with it.

their radio performed better than the cheap crap.

[The_War_Wagon]

Don't forget MURS band either! A little scarcer, but that means less crosstalk interference. They also don't require licensing, and their REAL USABLE range is usually a bit longer than GMRS even (say, a mile & half further in open country). A very "do-able" alternative.

[QuietShootr]

Don't forget MURS band either! A little scarcer, but that means less crosstalk interference. They also don't require licensing, and their REAL USABLE range is usually a bit longer than GMRS even (say, a mile & half further in open country). A very "do-able" alternative.

MURS is great as a band, but the selection of radios is kind of weak. The best 'license-free' solution to the HT problem would be to get some Motorola Sabers in VHF and have them programmed to the MURS channels. Tough, and legal.

You can get this all done from radio vendors on eBay.