View Full Version : Your funniest story from an AR class
I attend approximately two carbine courses a month. Over the last few years, I've seen some funny weapons, support gear, and end users. My favorite:
In 2003, I attended a 3-day class in SoCal by ITTS. As usual with most classes, there was one student who was ill-prepared and frequently causing the course to stop. He was a civilian security guard with a brand-spanking new, shiny clean Blackhawk 4-mag subload (in "Tactical black"). To give you an idea of his skills: The whole line was prone and had already reloaded and continued firing with their new magazine, while he was still trying to figure out how to open (for the first time) the velcro/fastex buckle on his hip.
Well, for the upteenth time his weapon malfunctioned- This time due to an old beat up GI 30rd mag that was beyond repair. Instructor Scotty Reitz told him to ditch the magazine, explaining how mags don't last forever and should be considered disposable. The student insisted on keeping it and started to put it in his pocket to take home and save. It may be the fact that CA civilians can't buy them anymore, but who knows his rationale for keeping it. After much fuss, Scott grabbed the bad mag and threw it as hard as he could over the cliff of the range (Eagle's Nest area of Angeles Range). I'll never forget the look of horror on the student's face- You'd think the mag was a winning million dollar lottery ticket.
I'll never forgot that guy's face- I still crack up everytime I think of that incident.
I attend approximately two carbine courses a month. Over the last few years, I've seen some funny weapons, support gear, and end users. My favorite:
In 2003, I attended a 3-day class in SoCal by ITTS. As usual with most classes, there was one student who was ill-prepared and frequently causing the course to stop. He was a civilian security guard with a brand-spanking new, shiny clean Blackhawk 4-mag subload (in "Tactical black"). To give you an idea of his skills: The whole line was prone and had already reloaded and continued firing with their new magazine, while he was still trying to figure out how to open (for the first time) the velcro/fastex buckle on his hip.
Well, for the upteenth time his weapon malfunctioned- This time due to an old beat up GI 30rd mag that was beyond repair. Instructor Scotty Reitz told him to ditch the magazine, explaining how mags don't last forever and should be considered disposable. The student insisted on keeping it and started to put it in his pocket to take home and save. It may be the fact that CA civilians can't buy them anymore, but who knows his rationale for keeping it. After much fuss, Scott grabbed the bad mag and threw it as hard as he could over the cliff of the range (Eagle's Nest area of Angeles Range). I'll never forget the look of horror on the student's face- You'd think the mag was a winning million dollar lottery ticket.
I'll never forgot that guy's face- I still crack up everytime I think of that incident.
People become "married" to their gear for whatever reason. This is why we see so many knock down, drag out fights on the internet over gear selection.
A mag (even an HK mag) is a disposable item for sure.
C4
In 2003 with the AWB ban being still in effect I would treat a pre-ban magazine like a million dollar lottery ticket too.
I live in a permanent AWB state and I treat my pre-ban lower and magazines like gold(meaning I do not drag them behind my car or throw them off cliffs.)
Now even if a pre-ban magzine does not work I believe you can swap it with a new one from C-Products.
Now with that said I understand that magazines are "disposable" to a degree.
Maybe I would laugh if it did not happen to me, but if it did happen to me, I would not be amused.
saint +1
they are disposable items, as they are cheap and easy to replace.
unless you are from one of the assault weapon ban states then they are not disposable items. as long as the body is good the rest can be refurbished. brownells makes a tool designed just to straighten the feed lips. followers, floor plates and sprgs. can all be replaced.
i feel the same way as you do about my pre ban stuff. we don't want to end up on the wrong side of the law. c products emailed me that they do not have date stamps on their mags.;)
i recently purchased 8 more pre ban mags for the collection. the owner felt he would rather buy new than overhaul thses. i don't care about the finish and have no problems installing new parts in them and bringing them back to life. i build a good magazine.;)
Derek_Connor
07-22-06, 01:53
<----- Getting the moose cock for NSR'ing a "good guy" because I read the faces of the people in the room instead of reading hands. :mad:
I blame it on my liberal ass major.:p
I can beat all of them.
Chris "The Flasher" has to be my funniest class story.
How can you top a guy who rips his pants from his JOHNSON to his knees (Twice in one class!) and runs around the entire day in basically his underwear? Plus he shot damn awesome to boot.
It was damn funny to say the least.
:D
I can beat all of them.
Chris "The Flasher" has to be my funniest class story.
How can you top a guy who rips his pants from his JOHNSON to his knees (Twice in one class!) and runs the entire day in basically his underwear? Plus he shot damn awesome to boot.
It was damn funny to say the least.
:D
Hey now, I've ripped the crotch outta my pants during a class once, so lets show a little mercy, okay?:D
K.L. Davis
07-22-06, 18:03
Our fighting doctrine has held that magazines are disposable... therefore the reason for the cheap construction -- we are not at all like some nations who issue a handful of mags to a conscript and expect him to hold on the them for a career.
Back when I was a young man (Molly Hatchet was a new group) we even got a strange magazine to test: It was disposable in every sence... it could not be reloaded, it came preloaded with ammo, but for the spring and feed lips was all plastic and used a coil spring that had to be "wound up" with a zip-pull ring and lanyard at the bottom of the magazine before use.
Oh... as for funny stories, I have no humor :mad:
Grant, what name did Super Dave keep calling you during that class?
Frank or Todd? That was pretty freaking funny to me :D
Hey now, I've ripped the crotch outta my pants during a class once, so lets show a little mercy, okay?:D
So have I, but I changed my pants ASAP so I wouldn't have my balls hanging out all day. Chris did it twice in 3 days and opted not to change, hence the hilarity. Every time we go to the range I give him the business over it. If he's not shooting well, inevitably someone will suggest he should be "balls out" for best efficiency.
Besides that, LAV giving Dinger the business during class was worth a chuckle or two. The quote's in your signature, Paul, give me a laugh every time I read them.
Not a "class" story, but I watched a guy fumble around trying to reload his pistol during a 3 gun match once, and after roughly 3 minutes he figured out the spare magazine he had was for an altogether different gun. That was so embarrassingly painful that I thought it would never end. Like a Ben Stiller movie.
Besides that, LAV giving Dinger the business during class was worth a chuckle or two. The quote's in your signature, Paul, give me a laugh every time I read them.
This ones mine:
“That’s a flinch of Biblical portions” - LAV
I certainly earned it.
:D
I'd like to take a few AR classes but I'm scared I'll end up on one of these lists. :D
Pat_Rogers
07-29-06, 08:00
Don't know if you are being facetious or not, but carefully consider this.
Most everyone will commit some kind of act of omission, error or faux pas in any given class.
From my standpoint, bringing this to the attention of the entire class provides me with a teaching point (actually, emphasizing a previous teaching point).
I can bring humiliation to an art form (Right Harv?) not because i want to lower the malefactors self esteem, but because if we can't do it and have fun at someones expense, we lose the value of that potential teaching point.
Everyone will feel this at some point.
OK, not everyone. I have a rule of 100. If i tell you to do the same thing one hundred times and you can't function in the environment, you probably won't do it at 112, 346 or 1197.
In other words, you are a non hacker. However, as long as it is a non safety issue, you can remain and have fun- but individual instruction will cease.
Self esteem is a non starter in a fight. If people can't hang in training, they are certainly not going to do any better in the two way rifle range.
Go to gunskul with a clear mind and be ready to learn. Accept that fact that- Euro gun makers claims aside- there is no perfection, and you will make mistakes. Learn from the mistakes and enjoy the ride, but also understand that attending one class- or one hundred- won't necessarily make you a gunfighter.
Don't know if you are being facetious or not, but carefully consider this.
Most everyone will commit some kind of act of omission, error or faux pas in any given class.
From my standpoint, bringing this to the attention of the entire class provides me with a teaching point (actually, emphasizing a previous teaching point).
I can bring humiliation to an art form (Right Harv?) not because i want to lower the malefactors self esteem, but because if we can't do it and have fun at someones expense, we lose the value of that potential teaching point.
Everyone will feel this at some point.
OK, not everyone. I have a rule of 100. If i tell you to do the same thing one hundred times and you can't function in the environment, you probably won't do it at 112, 346 or 1197.
In other words, you are a non hacker. However, as long as it is a non safety issue, you can remain and have fun- but individual instruction will cease.
Self esteem is a non starter in a fight. If people can't hang in training, they are certainly not going to do any better in the two way rifle range.
Go to gunskul with a clear mind and be ready to learn. Accept that fact that- Euro gun makers claims aside- there is no perfection, and you will make mistakes. Learn from the mistakes and enjoy the ride, but also understand that attending one class- or one hundred- won't necessarily make you a gunfighter.
I see alot shooters take instructors input (designed to help them) in a negative way and become insulted. I can only think that a lot of people are not used to people telling them what they are doing is wrong or that they are a perfect shooter.
C4
Dave Berryhill
07-29-06, 09:36
...After much fuss, Scott grabbed the bad mag and threw it as hard as he could over the cliff of the range....
When I was a cop, my partner (Mike) and I both helped run the range. One of the officers was having issues with his duty pistol and it was obvious that the problem was due to one magazine. During a cease-fire, Mike walked over and asked to see the magazine. It was a really cheesy aftermarket magazine that obviously wasn't suitable for duty use.
Mike held the magazine out and when the officer reached for it, he "accidentally" dropped it on the ground. As the officer started to bend down and pick it up, "CRUNCH!" Mike stomped it flat with his big 'ole steel-toed boot! "Oops," he said. "I guess you're going to need a new magazine. This time buy one from Sig." The officer didn't think it was funny but I laughed so hard I thought I was going to wet my pants!
Originally Posted by Pat_Rogers
Don't know if you are being facetious or not, but carefully consider this.
Most everyone will commit some kind of act of omission, error or faux pas in any given class.
From my standpoint, bringing this to the attention of the entire class provides me with a teaching point (actually, emphasizing a previous teaching point).
I can bring humiliation to an art form (Right Harv?) not because i want to lower the malefactors self esteem, but because if we can't do it and have fun at someones expense, we lose the value of that potential teaching point.
Everyone will feel this at some point.
OK, not everyone. I have a rule of 100. If i tell you to do the same thing one hundred times and you can't function in the environment, you probably won't do it at 112, 346 or 1197.
In other words, you are a non hacker. However, as long as it is a non safety issue, you can remain and have fun- but individual instruction will cease.
Self esteem is a non starter in a fight. If people can't hang in training, they are certainly not going to do any better in the two way rifle range.
Go to gunskul with a clear mind and be ready to learn. Accept that fact that- Euro gun makers claims aside- there is no perfection, and you will make mistakes. Learn from the mistakes and enjoy the ride, but also understand that attending one class- or one hundred- won't necessarily make you a gunfighter.
Amen Brother....;)
Hell, Half the reason I go to class is to mercilessly pick on some poor Dump Bastard who pooches a Tac reload in between drills. (Opps, forgot, that was me...:p )
Big Boy rules in class roll over to the real world I figure. if your gonna get all Girlie cause some one ripped on ya a little bit, it's gonna be a shock when some one's trying to kill ya...
As to funny stories... there was a guy in a class a few years ago who showed up with a 550 cord Sling. We all looked at him like he had a third arm growing out the side of his head. he was graciously offered several sling hook ups from the Instructor, but he shrugged it off. Said he would be fine. Guess what he was NOT using at the start of day 2... And he was a pretty good shooter.
Pat_Rogers
07-29-06, 12:37
My memory fails me Pat- was he in one of my classes?
Oh yeah, one of Cpt Kens classes. about 2 years ago. He finally took either you or some one else's offer to replace the 550 cord with a real sling. And I thought I was a frugal cheap Bastard....;)
Pat_Rogers
07-29-06, 14:31
Roger- i remember now. There are enough good slings out there to make me wonder why someone wants to resort to ad hockery.
[quote]Don't know if you are being facetious or not, but carefully consider this.
Most everyone will commit some kind of act of omission, error or faux pas in any given class.[/qote]
I'm only one-quarter serious. :) I'm ready to make mistakes, so long as they are NOT safety-related. Generally someone only has to tell me something about thirty times before I pick up on it.
Mainly I need to stop procrastinating and just go to a class. FIRE Institute is local to me, and from what I've heard they have a decent rep.
Don't have any funny AR class stories, but I'll always remember the time a local police officer pegged a "hostage" right between the eyes during an informal night of IPSC shooting. When he came off the firing line we all had those little round stickers on our foreheads. :D
Pat_Rogers
07-29-06, 16:18
My advice would be to move forward and take a class. Things like IPSC/ IDPA/SASS are fun, but unless you have a clear understanding and can seperate games from fighting they can be detrimental.
There are are great number of people teaching- some are viable and some are not, but no matter where you go, make an effort to not fall in love with a single place/ instructor/ doctrine; and bring back at least two things from every class that you can use.
One of the funniest experiences happened at a Pat Rogers carbine class in Casa Grande, AZ... at my expense. Pat drilled in from the very beginning not to run the guns dry. I laughed, hee'd and haw'ed at all the others who ran their guns dry and Pat would say.., "Correct me if I am wrong, but, didn't we cover not running the guns dry sometime earlier during this class???"
Well, day two, I am shooting and damn if I didn't run the gun dry... I nervously glance over to my left and see both Tim Lau and Pat Rogers over on the left flank helping a fellow student... "Whew! I am in the clear, they didn't see me!" I thought...
Thought is just that... Just as I stealthily executed my reload... behind me to my right, I hear this choking sound and look to my surprise to see Pat awarding me the moose cock prize...
Pat, if you have that picture, it would great to post here...it was posted on 10-8, and was a riot.
Moral of the story is... nothing escapes Pat and nothing escapes Tim... how they covered that ground so quickly and were able to get that picture was priceless.... Oh, and don't run the gun dry...
Y-
Pat_Rogers
07-29-06, 22:00
Standing behind the line i am in constant eyeball motion, looking for those things that are out of place. Safety is of course primary, but evil things are also in the mix/
When you have a switched on class (and that one was) the odd man (That Guy) stands out like a turgid member at swim practice....
That wasn't my pic, but i'll track it down!
And if Pat doesn't see you- for God's sake, don't confess!
Pat_Rogers
07-29-06, 22:15
Oh yeah, the guilty party always confesses- not verbally, but confesses nevertheless.
All i have to do is state "Close the dustcover" and 3/4 of the line will surreptiously run their finger down to see if i was looking at them.
No, i don't see everything.
But i see you.......
I didn't confess for Christ's sake, there was a photo that made me confess...
I swear, I had that, "where the **** did you come from?!" look on my face when Pat appeared next to me...
I swear, that is the funniest damn thing that ever happened to me in a class...
Y-
Yeah, that guy sees everything....:p
Pat_Rogers
07-30-06, 06:10
Yeah, that guy sees everything....:p
And that is what you pay me for....
Except the pink chair and the jorts. Yecchh.....
"Do we have any theology majors in the class to verify the round count for the day??", Pat Rogers.
"Yes, I majored in theology!", Random Shooter on the Line...
:eek:
"Is theology some sort of math major?", USMC Lance Corporal...
:p :p :p
His perplexed look when his GySGT explained that it was a joke was classic. While he had seen the horrors of war he was still "innocent" enough to be fooled by Pat's mockery of the "sciences".
Pat_Rogers
07-31-06, 10:08
Actually i asked for a theology major, and when he admitted to it, i told him he was in charge of the round count- much to his chagrin...
The Marines comments ere priceless, and o really enjoyed that part of the day!
Business_Casual
08-01-06, 17:35
At a Blackwater Carbine class, GOTM4 was using a suppressor on his carbine. The instructor noticed and during the night shoot had him and a guy we called "Winchester" get on the line.
"Suppressor Dude, give me 5 rounds."
In the rain and dark, suppressed, there was no signature and no sound.
"Muzzle brake dude, give me 5 rounds."
Bam! The night lights up like lightening.
Then the instructor says:
"A twelve-year old Afghan girl could find that muzzle flash."
M_P
Modern Pirate... do I know you and GotM4?
At BW HRSO there were two guys with supressed M4's...
Intersting story...
Y-
Business_Casual
08-02-06, 08:59
Yancey,
I do not think so, but for clarity it was Blackwater Carbine Operator May 1-5 2006.
I think one of the guys from our class stayed on for that class, could have been him.
M_P
John_Wayne777
08-02-06, 11:37
At a Blackwater Carbine class, GOTM4 was using a suppressor on his carbine. The instructor noticed and during the night shoot had him and a guy we called "Winchester" get on the line.
"Suppressor Dude, give me 5 rounds."
In the rain and dark, suppressed, there was no signature and no sound.
"Muzzle brake dude, give me 5 rounds."
Bam! The night lights up like lightening.
Then the instructor says:
"A twelve-year old Afghan girl could find that muzzle flash."
M_P
Tell me about it. I ended up next to that guy on a couple of proned out drills and the muzzle blast was awful. Hot gas in my face every single round he fired with that wierd rifle of his.
Robb Jensen
08-02-06, 11:54
Tell me about it. I ended up next to that guy on a couple of proned out drills and the muzzle blast was awful. Hot gas in my face every single round he fired with that wierd rifle of his.
Yeah even with 'Winchester' there, it was a great class. Winchester was shooting a 11.5" SBR with what looked like a Smith Enterprise brake, and yeah it was VERY loud! :(
I was there May 20th-27th...
Had to have been him... seems I remember a guy talking about how he was at a course at BW before our HRSO class started.
Y-
I failed to read the instructions on my LT150 mount and Pat saw it fall off. Surprisingly I was not teased about this! BTW, I found that wrench when I got back, and I am much more organized now.....
The next week, with different instructors, we had one student that shook like a Parkinsons patient and did not complete the week. I think he wandered off to work on a friends house. Another student shot 4 feet low of the dummy target and hit the $2500 remote controled base that it sat on. It was destroyed instantly. A third student went into the shoothouse with a can and subsonic ammo. The instructor thought he was having repeated type 1 malfunctions and failing to transition.
At another class a security guard came to school that was such a poor shooter that he missed the berm repeatedly. With a Glock, at 25 yards. From prone. He loaded five rounds into some magazines and 15 into others. Thats the sad part. The funny part is that when he went into the shoothouse he was pointing the gun at his feet. The instructor told him to "get your hands up." He dropped the firearm and surrendered. I AM NOT SHITTING YOU. I didn't see it, but the instructor told some of us later. Moments later he fired a single shot, striking a no-shoot target between the eyes. The shoot target 12 inches above that was unharmed.
Pat_Rogers
08-05-06, 05:59
Ryan- unfortunately stories that you relate are not at all uncommon.
While the bubble gum forums are full of chest thumpers who belittle cops and toot horns about over the top scenarios and "well, what I would have done" nonsense, the fact of the matter is that a great many who own guns shouldn't have them.
Or Cars.
Or children.
Or oxygen.
Many refuse to acknowledge training as necessary for a plethora of reasons, running from "the Constitution doesn't require it" to "I already know how to shoot- I am an American".
And a lot who do seek training are grossly unprepared, both physically and mentally to face certain realities.
Right after the noon break on TD 2 (of a 5 day class) i had two adult men break into tears and run crying off the range because "I'm tired of being stressed. I didn't know that i would bleed so much".
This guy had an expensive pistol with checkering that assaulted his pasty paws every time he pressed the trigger. He complained about everything. "The magazines don't work". (After i fire all 5 of his mags through his gun non stop he stated "They don't work for me!!!"
Maybe they didn't want to work for him?
I have a compilation of those who couldn't/ wouldn't, called the Bozo Chronicles", and clearly i'll never publish it, but i do have an NFE List (Not F*&^)%# Ever) for those that i will not accept or have banned from ever returning.
People question why we have strict credentialing. Several years ago i worked at a place that had a "credentialed once, credentialed forever "policy.
A "well known" person had attended class once.
Shortly thereafter he was arrested for, and pled guilty to an offense against children.
He decided to return to the school, who of course allowed him in. Think of the ramifications if this had been made public?
Still later he wanted to attend another class somewhere and asked online if he could borrow a gun from forum members.
Shortly after the police executed warrants and arrested him for being a felon in possession of guns.
Another poster on a forum has been arrested for operating a burglary ring on gun stores- the proceeds of which (guns) were then sold to citizens and cops alike as being legit.
Just like in the real world, there are good and bad people; competent an incompetent; nice and not nice; smart and stupid.
These aren't the funny stories- these are the sad ones.
Training of and by itself does not make one either trained or competent. There are a number of people running around who have attended multiple courses who apparently consider themselves "Tier 1) assets (No joke, that's how one described himself).
Now, funny stories- i have a lot of them....
Rmplstlskn
08-05-06, 10:53
Some of these stories make me think that my fat a$$ might actually fall somewhere in the middle of a typical class as far as skill is concerned... :rolleyes:
As one who has been shooting since a kid (now 40), I can see professionalism and results of good training when I see it, and many of these people I see & know attend these classes (lots of the VA Crew impress me), so in comparison to them, I feel "inadequate." :D
I'm sure my attendance at a class would give some humor and stories to relive... not safety related, but just me trying to keep up with the fast and smooth shooters around me... Did I mention my fat a$$ :D
Rmpl
From Pat Roger's
Right after the noon break on TD 2 (of a 5 day class) i had two adult men break into tears and run crying off the range because "I'm tired of being stressed.
I feel that way every time your behind me.....;) Sometimes I just need a hug...:p
There are a number of people running around who have attended multiple courses who apparently consider themselves "Tier 1) assets (No joke, that's how one described himself).
I consider myself to be in the Tier 20-25 range...:cool:
Pat_Rogers
08-05-06, 16:46
Actually Tim is in charge of hugs Pat. However, we'll try to hire someone who more appropriately fits your lifestyle!
As to Tier ranks- i wish i had a lot more sttudents like you in class.
You listen. Pay attention. Prcocess information. Shoot real well.
And, have a great time doing it!
Pat_Rogers
08-05-06, 18:32
I pretty much absolutely love what i do. I truly enjoy the military and cop classes as there is a focus to their purpose.
The average civilian classes may not collectively have that intensity (though a great many individuals do) but i am strongly committed to ensuring that the good guys can receive certain training to make them more proficient with their weapons.
There are clearly things that i won't do- 6 man team stuff etc, because there is no way that i can justify that for average Joe's. However, good guys with guns and the mindset and ability to use them properly is a good thing.
Plus, having good guys voting for good guys enables us to continue as a country.
I once had a brain surgeon on line next to a guy who literally paid for his class by redeeming soda cans found on the side of the road.
Having computer geeks on line next to real deal guys is often an eye opener for both.
I had a petit female who never fire a carbine before come in 2nd in a shootoff against 23 others, including some SWAT guys and Tier 2 guys.
No, she would never outfight them, but she listened and processed information and had a great time doing it.
And therein is the benefit of open classes. Perhaps 1% will have the mindset to carry a fight through to the end, and another 15% or so can do a credible job under the right circumstances, and maybe do better with proper sustainment training.
The rest may never reach those heights, but if they are safe, will have a great time.
There is always a bozo who spoils it. He becomes something one step beyond "that guy", wears a como suit de jour, has stories about all the things he says he has done, but hasn't, and can't remember what target he is assigned to.
They aren't funny...
But making a mistake that is not safety related? We all do that. The big issue is not repeating it. This is adult education. It has to do with operating under pressure.
The ramifications of using Deadly Physical Force against another is daunting, and not seeking proper training is just another potential nail in your pine box.
Robb Jensen
08-05-06, 19:00
My advice would be to move forward and take a class. Things like IPSC/ IDPA/SASS are fun, but unless you have a clear understanding and can seperate games from fighting they can be detrimental.
I agree with you to an extent, don't forget to distinguish the game from the real, but don't dismiss EVERYTHING in the game. If there's a faster more efficient way a USPSA shooter will find it.
I'm a USPSA(IPSC), IDPA, 3gun and GSSF shooter. I've been shooting for 31yrs (competitively in IDPA and USPSA for 2yrs, 1yr in 3gun, GSSF for 6yrs), I think the competitive shooting has helped all my other shooting tremendously. The whole 'work station' thing taught at Blackwater currently was introduced by none other than Todd Jarrett.
Pat_Rogers
08-05-06, 19:58
GotM4- please re read my post.
That is exactly what i said. I shot IPSC in the 80's, 3 gun and High Power. I have a pretty clear understanding about it.
However, it is not about shooting- it is about fighting, and there is a difference.
As i said- you have to have a clear understanding about the difference right up front.
Robb Jensen
08-05-06, 20:09
I'm in agreement with you Pat :D . I guess I came across incorrectly. I was meaning to address the many shooters who are 'tactical' trainees but only listen to you and totally dismiss anything that isn't taught by you, Blackwater, Gonzales, Goodale, Vickers and other really great instructors in the industry.
Many of the instructors I've trained with always give the caution about 'competition' but almost all do also appreciate the good aspects of competition. I keep an open mind while training and while competing, but some people don't.
I was teaching our basic rifle class when one of our female officers mentioned she is afraid of clowns and midgets. It was to the point that just mentioning clowns or midgets got her uptight. To help her with her problem, on the final day we had one of the instructors distract the class by having them face away from the targets while he gave a lecture about whatever happened to be on his mind. When they weren't looking, myself and another instructor posted a target we had painted to look like a midget clown. For liability reasons (in case someone thinks we train to kill clowns), we made sure the clown was properly armed. Once it was posted, we instructed the class to face the targets and engage what they felt to be the biggest threat. When the class was finished, there wasnt much left of the clown. I'm not sure if we "cured" her phobia but everyone had some fun and she got a great picture with her dead clown to take home.
QuietShootr
08-06-06, 09:53
I pretty much absolutely love what i do. I truly enjoy the military and cop classes as there is a focus to their purpose.
The average civilian classes may not collectively have that intensity (though a great many individuals do) but i am strongly committed to ensuring that the good guys can receive certain training to make them more proficient with their weapons.
There are clearly things that i won't do- 6 man team stuff etc, because there is no way that i can justify that for average Joe's. However, good guys with guns and the mindset and ability to use them properly is a good thing.
Plus, having good guys voting for good guys enables us to continue as a country.
I once had a brain surgeon on line next to a guy who literally paid for his class by redeeming soda cans found on the side of the road.
Having computer geeks on line next to real deal guys is often an eye opener for both.
I had a petit female who never fire a carbine before come in 2nd in a shootoff against 23 others, including some SWAT guys and Tier 2 guys.
No, she would never outfight them, but she listened and processed information and had a great time doing it.
And therein is the benefit of open classes. Perhaps 1% will have the mindset to carry a fight through to the end, and another 15% or so can do a credible job under the right circumstances, and maybe do better with proper sustainment training.
The rest may never reach those heights, but if they are safe, will have a great time.
There is always a bozo who spoils it. He becomes something one step beyond "that guy", wears a como suit de jour, has stories about all the things he says he has done, but hasn't, and can't remember what target he is assigned to.
They aren't funny...
But making a mistake that is not safety related? We all do that. The big issue is not repeating it. This is adult education. It has to do with operating under pressure.
The ramifications of using Deadly Physical Force against another is daunting, and not seeking proper training is just another potential nail in your pine box.
I try REeeeeally hard to fall into that 1% (at the right side of the curve, that is):D though I'm sure I regularly fall short of the mark. I did make it through the July class without getting a moose cock, though.
Funny stuff - I saw a fellow try to stuff a 1911 magazine into his carbine during a speed reload. The look on his face when he realized what he'd done was priceless...especially since the first thing he did was do a quick left/right to see if anyone saw him do it:D
Pat, it's a Good Thing that you do...and I for one really appreciate it.
I moved this thread.
While this is a great thread I think it belongs in the Training and Tactics forum.
There was a guy that took a carbine class with his Robinson arms rifle. The first round he fired, the "removable" barrel got launched right off his gun. We have seen weird things with this character before while he claimed and pontificate about how tactical he is, he's not very mechanically inclined nor a good shot.
John_Wayne777
08-07-06, 12:56
The funniest ones I have seen in training are those who seem absolutely oblivious to the fact that they are shooting the barricade. In a carbine class a while ago I remember seeing an individual fire at least 1/3 of his rounds in a stress course through the various barricades.
One would think that those chunks of wood flying everywhere would clue him in...
I say that as a man who has put a round or two through a barricade in a carbine class...
As to leaving the range crying..... :eek: you have GOT to be kidding me.
Worst I have ever personally seen is a female from Columbia in a carbine class who was apparently there with her sugar-daddy boyfriend. Apparently they thought it was some sort of a vacation. When she went to run the stress course the instructors basically carried her rifle from place to place and made sure she didn't shoot anyone. There was a member of VA Beach PD SWAT in the class wearing his body armor. I was standing behind him very close, which prompted him to ask me what sort of intentions I had towards his posterior. I grabbed him by the body armor and pulled him close and informed him that as far as I was concerned, he was cover. =)
The worst I have ever heard of was a female police trainee who simply dropped a shotgun after deciding she didn't like the recoil. The FI who related the story still got red in the face over that one.
David Blinder
08-07-06, 20:20
Sam,
I have to ask, did the flying Rob Arms incident occur at South River in Atlanta? I'm interested because I saw the same thing happen there and believe it or not, the same guy had the barrel of an 870 fly off while he was at the Rogers School in Elijay.
I've had two (my own) from different classes.
First was a carbine class in Houston. The ground there was a little muddy, and during the stress fire, I ran up to the barricade to fire from a kneeling position when both feet went out from under me, and my butt was planted in the ground. Luckily, I was facing downrange with my rifle also pointing downrange, on safe. I flipped off the safety and continued the drill. The other shooters behind me were laughing pretty hard. I think someone has it on videotape somewhere.
Lessons learned: when moving, keep the muzzle downrange and rifle on safe...oh, and try not to fall.
The other time, also a carbine class, also during a stress fire, I didn't know that 28 was the magic number of rounds, and when I loaded on a closed bolt, the magazine fell out. Instead of grabbing the mag off the ground, I grabbed a new mag, slammed it in (so I thought), went to charge the rifle and that mag fell out. I got another fresh mag, and still screwed it up. The fourth magazine was the charm, but because I lost those three, I ended up having to transition to pistol sooner than I should have.
Lessons learned: load magazines to 28 rounds so they will seat better. Tug on the mag to ensure the mag catch engaged the magazine.
Snake,
During the night shoot part of my first ever carbine class I kept having problems after every tactical reload with firing one round and then nothing. I was beginning to think my rifle was dying until I finally figured out that I was inserting the mags upside down in the dark. :confused:
Pat_Rogers
08-08-06, 04:45
I'm not sure what type weapon that you were using here, but the reason we teach "PUSH/ PULL"- and have been for years (along with 28rds in the AR mags) is to mitigate certain issues- like the two described above.
PUSH/ PULL works. There are no other methods for ensuring that AR magzine is locked in place.
Simple stuff, when you are trained correctly.
I was an AR Carbine.
I have been through more training and practice and I'm now pretty good at remembering the Push/Pull thing, but at the time I was very new to the AR and using it for anything other than paper punching. It was my very first step into training.
Patrick Aherne
08-08-06, 11:59
I took a carbine class at the end of June and during this one drill, one guy was just blasting away at the target, completely missing the target. But, from the look on his face after he finished, he thought it was just about the coolest thing, ever.
Of course, I couldn't let that go, so I said,"Man, you REALLY scared the shit out of that target. Did you intend to miss it every single time?"
There's a reason my nickname is, "Evil.":D
My initial training on the AR system was an M16A1 in Army ROTC, and later basic training. SPORTS was the phrase we learned, and unfortunately, no one said anything about downloading to 28 rounds or after slapping, tug on the magazine to make sure it seated.
I hope the army has gotten better about that now, and doesn't just teach SPORTS.
put a round or two through a barricade
The range instructors where I work used to make those guys write their last names in permanent marker next to the bullet holes for everyone to see. Some names lasted there for decades. Nowadays, our PC brass call it "Hazing" or "Hostile work environment" and the instructors face discipline or reassignment for doing it. The names have since been covered up.
Spend money to paint over names, but not repair the holes. And somehow, the higher-ups think someone who can't take this type of "emotional stress" is supposed to survive and win a gunfight...
:confused:
The tactical carbine coures i took the instructor set up little competitions that uses the stuff we just learned and praticed. We each had a target at 35 yards and had 30 rounds. 5 rounds at standing, 5 at kneeling and 5 at prone then repeat. Every other target was marked with red tape so you can tell what one your shooting at. The Three guys next to my left. Two of them ,the guy on the left and the guy on the right, had 5 holes in each of their targets while the guy in the center had 70 some holes all over in his target.
Not very funny, and Pat may remember me or at least the incident, but when I attended his class in Albion, MI, I got a kidney stone on the ride home from Day 1. I had to drive 30 min in what I can only describe as paralyzing pain. Work and other BS kept me from this year's class, but I expect to be back in the game here soon.
This was a few years ago. The class was standing on line when one of the instructors said something about decocking the weapon to someone. Right after he says this I hear...BANG! WTF! Asshat next to me "decocked" his Glock by pulling the trigger. The round went right between his feet.
I took my first open course in 2004 - I was talking to a LE beside me on the line and all of a sudden he quite calmly asked me a really odd question " do you think the guy in the flight suit with the Beretta has a 96 or 92" - I turn and looked down the line and two shooters over was an asshat aiming his pistol at us while he attempted to fiddle**** with it...
(why I dislike open classes)
Then in April taking Yeager Contractor Driving Class (TR does screen the students and requires a number of courses prior)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Courses/Coverme.jpg
You know some people just dont have the brain to be able to operate in some training situations (let alone operationally) this guy repeatedly lased other students.
Not very funny, and Pat may remember me or at least the incident, but when I attended his class in Albion, MI, I got a kidney stone on the ride home from Day 1. I had to drive 30 min in what I can only describe as paralyzing pain. Work and other BS kept me from this year's class, but I expect to be back in the game here soon.
I remember that well. What a shocker!!! Start savin' ammo for next year...:D
Ooh, photographic evidence of asshattery...
K.L. Davis
10-01-06, 21:16
From Pat Roger's
There are a number of people running around who have attended multiple courses who apparently consider themselves "Tier 1) assets (No joke, that's how one described himself).
I consider myself to be in the Tier 20-25 range...:cool:
I get a kick out of this... to the point that it has gotten old. The funniest thing to do is ask the person making the claim what Tier 1 is... not what it means in the world of communication networks, or airlines, or fortune 500 business -- in the business of National defense, what is Tier 1?
Most of the time the answer is "ahhh, well, it is sort of hard to... you see, it is, ummmm, not really so much what as a.... man, is anyone else hungry?"
Or this classic "It is the term for rangersealforceninjadeltadagdog guys"
How about one where the joke was on me?
First day of class, Pat asks me how far he is from me. Mind you, this is in a room with 30 people in it. I try to say 7 feet, accidentally say 7 yards, and provide the first belly laugh of the class.
Oh yeah, one of Cpt Kens classes. about 2 years ago. He finally took either you or some one else's offer to replace the 550 cord with a real sling. And I thought I was a frugal cheap Bastard....;)
that was in our class in july! he was back this year at albion.......in june
mine was getting pushed around by a little irsh guy with his finger in my chest......
and you guys never offerd to hug me i feel left out........
Iam like a tier knowbody person......................
mine was getting pushed around by a little irsh guy with his finger in my chest......
and you guys never offerd to hug me i feel left out........
Iam like a tier knowbody person......................
One time this little Irish guy saw me loading a magazine with my right hand on TD4 at the night shoot. He slapped me on the back of the head, says "What, you think just cause it's night you think I can't see you ****in' up!?"
That was May of 2004, and I haven't loaded a magazine with my right hand since! :D
Well, I have done some weak hand shooting, but thats different.
Pat_Rogers
10-03-06, 05:37
I may not see everything, but i see enough to keep you alive...
Pat_Rogers
10-03-06, 05:54
I(TR does screen the students and requires a number of courses prior)
[
You know some people just dont have the brain to be able to operate in some training situations (let alone operationally) this guy repeatedly lased other students.
Oh yes Kevin!
As we know, the number of classes attended means precious little when you have people that can't remember their target or relay number, what safety rules are, or that any rules actually apply to them.
My NFE list grows daily, and if not from personal experience, from reading their pathetic posts on the errornet or looking at the dumb pictures they post.
Submariner
10-03-06, 06:02
Start savin' ammo for next year...:D
And to think it used to be, "Start saving money for next year.":rolleyes:
Elsewhere, Pat has said, "I don't see everything, but I see YOU!"
He does, too. Caught me leisurely conducting a Jeff Gonzalez-style tac reload and admonished me, "Don't be lazy!" ETA: Now know why:
I may not see everything, but i see enough to keep you alive...
Thanks, Pat!
Patrick Aherne
10-03-06, 13:33
I took my first open course in 2004 - I was talking to a LE beside me on the line and all of a sudden he quite calmly asked me a really odd question " do you think the guy in the flight suit with the Beretta has a 96 or 92" - I turn and looked down the line and two shooters over was an asshat aiming his pistol at us while he attempted to fiddle**** with it...
(why I dislike open classes)
You know some people just dont have the brain to be able to operate in some training situations (let alone operationally) this guy repeatedly lased other students.
Imagine the scene, semi-auto pistol conversion course in '94, one-handed malfunction clearing drills: the deputy next to me on the left continues to try to clear his SIG while pointing it at me. I ask, once, twice, then a third time...FIRMLY, not to point the f*&^ing pistol at me. The guy just laughs and says, "Don't worry, I won't shoot you." The fourth time, I pivot right, take up a sight picture on the numbnuts' melon and wait. Screams of, "Stop pointing your gun at me! He's pointing his gun at me! What, are you crazy?" ensue. Rangemaster looks over, makes wry face and calls cease fire. Everyone holsters up and I get asked why am I pointing my Glock at the guy to my right. I tell the Rangemaster that the stupid SOB has been sweeping me in just about every drill and I've asked him not to three times. I then say that if I get shot, he is gonna get dead. Rangemaster looks at dufus and says, "Don't point your pistol at him or he will shoot you." Then, he looks at me and says, deadpan, "Please, it's a whole lot of report-writing if you shoot him on my range. Don't do it."
I never got swept after that.
I should piont out that I don't recommend this technique. I was young and thought I knew everything when this happened.
I was in a SDH carbine class this summer. We were on the second day doing 2-man team drills, high dude, and low dude (on command planted, one knelt the other shooter engaged).
I take a knee, bring the rifle up, fire 1 rd and track my magazine fall out. A hearty "F**K! JAM" then slapped in a new mag and got it up and running. Only time it happened, still haven't quite figured it out. I guess I just vapor-locked, or brushed the mag release while holding the carbine. And yes, Dave saw it. I swear he has fricking eyes in the back of everyones head!
My boy and I were doing some informal plinking at longer ranges and he happened to make the statement that I couldnt hit a large Road Runner that was maybe 700 yards off to our right.Well he was right, my round hit just below the bird approx. 2 ft., using dust as a gauge, lol. Anyhow, he shoulders his carbine, half-ass aims, looks at me and says see, this is how you do it!! By God, he did , the bird fell over dead as a rock.Later, we figured probably 700 yards as we inspected the dead foul.Pretty amazing and all, LUCK!!!!
My boy and I were doing some informal plinking at longer ranges and he happened to make the statement that I couldnt hit a large Road Runner that was maybe 700 yards off to our right.Well he was right, my round hit just below the bird approx. 2 ft., using dust as a gauge, lol. Anyhow, he shoulders his carbine, half-ass aims, looks at me and says see, this is how you do it!! By God, he did , the bird fell over dead as a rock.Later, we figured probably 700 yards as we inspected the dead foul.Pretty amazing and all, LUCK!!!!
I have to ask, what kind of scope were you using? I doubt I could even see a road runner at 600 yds through my 14x Leupold, much less 700. Thats a heck of a shot.
I have to ask, what kind of scope were you using? I doubt I could even see a road runner at 600 yds through my 14x Leupold, much less 700. Thats a heck of a shot. Well, irons baby, and the only reason we saw it was the green wheat background.Where we live, its flat as a pancake for nearly 2 miles, in any direction.We all the time see coyotes at a half mile or more, very easily.Like I say, thats one of them fluke deals that only happens once or twice in a lifetime and after thousands of rounds.I have shot many many rounds at varmints from my front steps.Gettin pretty good actually with irons, hehe.Someday I may get a scope, who knows, I might actually pick off coyotes with regularity, maybe even another ol RoadRunner!!
As long as we're discussing birds -
In AF basic many years ago, we were at the range for our 1-day indoctrination/"qualification" to/for the M16. One kid just off to his left just coldn't hit the paper, let alone attain a center of mass hit (100 yards). However, some unlucky sparrow flying parallel to and along the the target line disappeared in a spray of feathers and whatever as a result of this kid's "marksmanship."
Well, irons baby....
You understand this was probably luck, but a good story nonetheless. :p
About a year ago I was tasked with working with about a half dozen ladies at class which was to be the precurser to their CC range day. The line is hot and the ladies are standing at 7 yds and I advise them to load and make ready for two rounds in 3 seconds. These ladies were doing very well and with a little gentle and positive reenforcement they all were making nice tight little grouped holes in the paper. Just as I gave the command to fire when ready, I looked at the last gal in line and for whatever reason I noticed that I could see "daylight " between the slide and frame to the rear of her pistola. A round had not been fired yet. I immediatley yelled "stop"....(my fault). I guess the front sight focus got to five of the six. BANG in unison was heard with the exception of the one I was concerned about. Luckily, the lady at the end for whatever reason did not fire. After I had everyone clear and holster, and the bitching quit from me scareing the crap out of everybody, I inspected her gun to find that when she was showing one of the other gals how to field strip at lunch she didn't get the slide all the way down and on the back rails. Yes, it still engaged and yes, it chambered a round when she loaded and made ready. I tried to do it after training that day and could not repeat the "problem". I have no idea what would have happened if that gun would have went BANG if she would have pressed the "go button". I really don't want to know...
Pat, I'm sure you remember this one...
Carbine Course at Boone County '05- there is this guy completely decked out in head-to-toe, shiny new Multicam, custom 1911 worth about $3k in a drop holster w/ a retention lanyard, and (I believe) a tricked out SBR...
Anyway, he had a stoppage of some sort and went to transition to his pistola, and somehow managed to wrap the pistol's lanyard around the charging handle of his carbine, rendering it impossible to use either firearm and effectively turning into an ambulatory cluster&%$*....
Ah, good times. :)
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