View Full Version : POF Contact....
Razorhunter
05-22-07, 18:45
Couple questions about POF guys,
1. Anyone been able to get POF on the phone lately??
I called all day for two days in a row, and no answer at all...???
Thanks guys.
2. Is it possible to order rifles directly from POF? Does anyone here know if they generally have most of their rifles in stock???
I'm looking at buying either a 16" 5.56 or possibly even a 7.62...
3. What is the difference between the POF 415 Gen II Lower and POF 416 Gen II Lower??? I have seen both of them for sale, and there is a $10 difference in price between the two, according to the website I saw them on.
1. No, but LWRC always answers right away ;)
3. The 416 has the full auto pictogram. The 415 does not.
I'm waiting on an answer from POF as well right now, so its possible that they are out of the office, or just very busy.
Razorhunter
05-22-07, 22:25
Do any of you guys know anything about the availability of the 7.62 rifles, specifically the 20"???
I would like to know IF it is currently available, and ALSO I would like to know what kind of RAIL OPTIONS are going to be available???
There has of course, been talk of the 5.56 rifles having a VLTOR rail option, and I'm not quite sure if it has become/will become a reality, nor do I know if it will be an option on the 7.62/P-308's...
Eagerly awaiting these, HOPEFULLY sometime SOON!!!
Thanks for ANY help you guys could give...
Right now the only rail systems that fit on the POF weapons are their own proprietary RIS'. sproc is right. As a whole weapon system, the 416 is a FA weapon and NFA rules apply. The 415 is the SA version. You CAN however order a 416 upper to put on your SA lower. The only difference in the uppers is the FA bolt carrier. I talked to POF about this a few weeks ago.
1. No, but LWRC always answers right away ;)
3. The 416 has the full auto pictogram. The 415 does not.
That maybe so, but they also might never get you a weapon.
C4
E-mail is the best way to get ahold of POF IMHO (is what works for me).
C4
Do any of you guys know anything about the availability of the 7.62 rifles, specifically the 20"???
I would like to know IF it is currently available, and ALSO I would like to know what kind of RAIL OPTIONS are going to be available???
There has of course, been talk of the 5.56 rifles having a VLTOR rail option, and I'm not quite sure if it has become/will become a reality, nor do I know if it will be an option on the 7.62/P-308's...
Eagerly awaiting these, HOPEFULLY sometime SOON!!!
Thanks for ANY help you guys could give...
pm sent
Razorhunter
05-25-07, 18:00
Well guys,
Unfortunately, that damn MRR system might be a deal breaker for me.
I just don't like it at all. It's ugly IMO, and looks about 50% as good as the VLTOR and Daniel Defense rails that they retrofitted to their rifles in the past.
I would absolutely DIE for a POF that had a different rail system on it. I would probably buy TWO complete rifles INSTANTLY, IF they had rail options. (I'd buy one rifle in 5.56, and one OR EVEN TWO rifles in 7.62)
I just can't bring myself to like that POF MRR rail, and I just WISH POF would make the extremely popular alternative rail options available from the start. I mean, at LEAST offer us the good old fashioned VLTOR or DD rails to begine with, and THEN on down the road, offer us the new "MRR" rails. You gotta know the VLTOR, DD, etc are going to be the more popular choice.
They should know from feedback, that the VLTOR (or other rail options) would completely blow the market away, and it's actually a very feasible situation.
I know the MRR is a decent setup, but I just don't care for it. Most guys I know feel the same way.
Whenever POF does finally start offering these rifles with rail options, there are going to be some SUPER EXCITED guys scrambling to buy these rifles! I only HOPE AND PRAY this all will happen BEFORE the next AWB that we all get to look forward to.
Damn, I wonder IF POF would sell me a rifle WITHOUT the MRR system??? IOW, a rifle that just consists of ONLY the upper, lower, and bbl (and gas piston system, of course). This would KICK ASS, and I could then add a rail myself. This all only IF there are rail options that will fit, OR can at least be milled out to fit.
I wonder how much that VLTOR had to be modified to work? I'm not against a little custom milling.
I'm just looking for SOME WAY to own a POF rifle with an alternate rail option. I suppose before all this, I must find a way to communicate with POF. Going on 7 days now I think, and still no response from POF.
If anyone has any ideas, or knows of a way that I can succeed at this, I would be forever greatful.
Man, I was ready to spend $2400 with POF before all this. Guess I got too excited and jumped the gun.
I have been a bit leary of buying an LWRC rifle, due to some of the info I've received from very reliable names in the industry, but I honestly realize that nothing is etched in stone, and LWRC could end up proving themselves very well.
At least LWRC has a nice rail that appeals to me.
Maybe I should start looking at the LWRC's again perhaps???
Truth be known, I'd RATHER own a POF rifle.
All I know is that I would kill to be able to find a couple of QUALITY Gas Piston rifles in 5.56 and 7.62, with some type of rail option right now....
Or maybe I should just forget about it all, and just stay with Direct Impingement, and spend Several Grand $$$ on a Noveske 7.62 AR10...
OR, I could buy another Colt or LMT 16" Carbine, along with an Armalite AR10....? Sure did want a gas piston though...
Anybody else here stuck in my same shoes guys?
AR15barrels
05-25-07, 19:35
I would absolutely DIE for a POF that had a different rail system on it. I would probably buy TWO complete rifles INSTANTLY, IF they had rail options. (I'd buy one rifle in 5.56, and one OR EVEN TWO rifles in 7.62)
I can't tell you about the 7.62's as I have not handled one yet, but I put a Troy rail on a 5.56 POF piston upper a few weeks ago.
It requires machining out the inside of the top rail until it's nearly paper thin for a few inches, but it fits and should be completely servicable.
I'll look for picures to post later if I find them.
The issue is the size of the gas piston assembly.
The outside of the gas cylinder is 0.55" or so.
DD and LaRue do not have enough metal to make a cut wide enough without the top of the rail becoming disconnected from the rest of the handguard.
The troy was JUST wide enough for me to do this.
Here's a few pic of my POF with the Troy rail modified by Randall. Thanks for good job Randall!
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u212/huskydog_photos/IMG_0316.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u212/huskydog_photos/IMG_0317.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u212/huskydog_photos/IMG_0318.jpg
sproc is right. As a whole weapon system, the 416 is a FA weapon and NFA rules apply. The 415 is the SA version. You CAN however order a 416 upper to put on your SA lower. The only difference in the uppers is the FA bolt carrier. I talked to POF about this a few weeks ago.
I don't think the 416 lower is an NFA item. The extra pictogram for auto doesn't make it so. If it were drilled for an auto sear pin, you'd be right, but the ones shown on their website do not. But I'm not positive, so one would be prudent to confirm with them. That said, unless one has an RDIAS, and select-fire-enabled RLL, isn't a civilian, etc., having an AUTO pictogram on your SA-only rifle seems silly, IMHO.
Right now the only rail systems that fit on the POF weapons are their own proprietary RIS
According to info and pics posted on TOS by POF in January, they plan(ned) to offer Troy and DD options in addition to the MRR. And here's an email purportedly from POF to that effect (emphasis mine):
Originally Posted By Multicast [on TOS]:
This is the email I got from POF.
Thank you for the interest in the newest member of the Gas Piston Weapon System. The P-308. We will begin taking orders from FFL Dealers beginning January 15, 2007. Expected delivery is May 2007.
P-308-16-DD-CF-308-CARBINE - Semi-Auto Integral-Key Bolt Carrier, Billet Machined 7075-T6 Flat Top Upper, 16.5"" Std. Fluted Barrel, C.R.O.S., Daniels Defense Mid-Lenght Rail, FTA-2005 Front Site, Troy Folding Rear Battle Site, FMCP-B5 Muzzle Device, .308 cal. / 7.62x51mm. Billet Machined 7075-T6 Lower w/ POF-USA "Ambi-Bolt Release Lever", Timney Drop-In 4 Lbs. Single Stage Trigger, Tango Down Battle Grip, Magpul "CTR" retractable Buttstock w/ mil spec tube. FTA-2005 Front site. MSRP $2275
P-308-16-TROY-CF-308-CARBINE - Semi-Auto Integral-Key Bolt Carrier, Billet Machined 7075-T6 upper, 16.5" Continuous Fluted Barrel, C.R.O.S., Troy Ind.Mid-Length Rail, Ladder Rail Covers, FTA-2005 Front Site, Troy Folding Rear Battle Site, FMCP-B5 Muzzle Device, .308 cal. / 7.62x51mm. Billet Machined 7075-T6 Lower w/ POF-USA "Ambi-Bolt Release Lever", Timney Drop-In 4 Lbs. Single Stage Trigger, Tango Down Battle Grip, Magpul "CTR" Buttstock w/ mil spec tube. MSRP $2200
P-308-16-MRR-CF-308-RECON - Semi-Auto Integral-Key Bolt Carrier, M.R.R.(Modular Railed Receiver) Billet Machined Upper 7075-T6, 16.5" Std. Fluted Barrel, C.R.O.S., M.R.R. Slim Extended Full-Length Rail, Ergo Ladder Rail Covers, FTA-2005 Front Site, Troy Folding Rear Battle Site, FMC-B3 Muzzle Device, .308 cal. / 7.62x51mm. Billet Machined 7075-T6 Lower w/ POF-USA "Ambi-Bolt Release Lever" & Integrated Oversized Trigger Guard, Timney Drop-In Single Stage 4 Lbs Trigger, Tango Down Battle Grip, Magpul "CTR" Buttstock w/ mil spec tube. MSRP $ 2325
P-308-20-MRR-CF-308-SPR - Semi-Auto Integral-Key Bolt Carrier, M.R.R (Modular Railed Receiver) Billet Machined 7075-T6 Upper, 20" Continuous Fluted Barrel, C.R.O.S., M.R.R. Slim Extended Full-Length Rail, Ergo Ladder Rail Covers, FTA-2005 Front Site, Troy Folding Rear Battle Site, FMC-B3 Muzzle Device, .308 cal. / 7.62x51mm. Billet Machined 7075-T6 Lower w/ POF-USA "Ambi-Bolt Release Lever" & Integrated Oversized Trigger Guard, Timney Drop-in Single Stage 4 lbs Trigger, Tango Down Battle Grip, Magpul Precision Rifle Stock. MSRP $2400.
And here's a pic of the Troy rail posted on TOS by POF in January. Looks great to me. Hopefully they still plan to offer it, but there's no way to know since POF went dead silent in early April on that thread:
http://www.pof-usa.com/P-416/P-308-16-TROY-CF-308%20CARBINE316.JPG
I have been a bit leary of buying an LWRC rifle, due to some of the info I've received from very reliable names in the industry, but I honestly realize that nothing is etched in stone, and LWRC could end up proving themselves very well. At least LWRC has a nice rail that appeals to me. Maybe I should start looking at the LWRC's again perhaps??? Truth be known, I'd RATHER own a POF rifle.
The only negative I've heard about LWRC as a company was during the .499 group buy and various issues with the previous management. Since the new management from the Grenadier Precision merger took over, I've heard nothing but good. And I've never heard any negative info on their rifles. That ( in addition to me being convinced they have a better, more reliable system) led to me placing an order for an LWRC recently (I don't have it yet, so I can't comment on it yet).
I recommend you spend some time over at the LWRC forums (http://www.lwrifles.com/forum). There's a lot of good information on their design, and it's clear they are very responsive to customers, including being active on their own forum. If nothing else, watch their video (http://www.lwrifles.com/Video/LWRC_VIDEO.wmv).
Regarding piston versus DI, that's a personal call, of course. I went that way because I want at least one gun that I feel confident would run and run over a long period of time even under the worst of circumstances. The price for an LWRC M6 is about only $100 more than a Colt LE6920 and probably less than a Sabre. But if the alternative is a Stag and you don't care about 1/7 barrels and such, I admit the premium is pretty high. So I'll probably but a Stag, too, to make it all even out. :-)
Sproc, I was referring to the 5.56 versions. Are they going to offer uppers in 5.56 that will take other RIS's without having to machine them? I hope so. I was hoping to be able to get one that would accept different RIS's namely KAC's since I have an extra one laying around. They told me via email in Feb that their RIS was the only one that would fit naturally, and that any others would need to be machined in order to fit. It was a deal breaker for me. Since the proprietary uppers are bulky. Huskydog's post gives me hope though. I'm kind of on a limited budget on my next AR build, so I'm trying to keep costs down, and I don't know any good armorers in the local area.
AR15barrels
05-27-07, 13:16
Sproc, I was referring to the 5.56 versions. Are they going to offer uppers in 5.56 that will take other RIS's without having to machine them? I hope so. I was hoping to be able to get one that would accept different RIS's namely KAC's since I have an extra one laying around. They told me via email in Feb that their RIS was the only one that would fit naturally, and that any others would need to be machined in order to fit. It was a deal breaker for me. Since the proprietary uppers are bulky. Huskydog's post gives me hope though. I'm kind of on a limited budget on my next AR build, so I'm trying to keep costs down, and I don't know any good armorers in the local area.
It was $50 to do the fitting to the troy rail.
If that's a deal breaker in order to have a rail system that you like properly fit on a piston gun, then piston guns are not for you.
It was $50 to do the fitting to the troy rail.
If that's a deal breaker in order to have a rail system that you like properly fit on a piston gun, then piston guns are not for you.
If that's all it's gonna cost, then that's not so bad, I'm just gonna have find a good armorer/ machinist. If anyone knows a good one in the Killeen/Waco/ Austin area I'd appreciate it.
Razorhunter
05-27-07, 19:08
Gentleman,
I'm still trying to determine WHICH brand of Piston AR to go with.
-LWRC
-POF
-OR, possibly wait for the Hk, or even the LMT, which has been made, but not released.
Does ANYONE here know the differences between these gas piston designs? Mainly, referring to the LWRC and the POF, since they are available, or will be real soon.
I just want to buy the highest quality system, and I realize they are all relatively new, but I figure someone's got a little more info on how they are made, and which one might be better.
Anyhow, regardless, I would like to know what it is about LWRC's piston design, that I have heard is no good?
I have heard several people say the LWRC system is not as good as the POF system, but I'm wondering if this is all BS, or if there is some merit to it all?
Anyone here own BOTH an LWRC AND POF?? (or any other brand(s) for that matter?)
I'm now super interested in the new LMT piston rifle, but I have no idea IF or WHEN it will be available???
There is more than just LMT coming out. :)
Voodoochild
05-27-07, 19:39
There is more than just LMT coming out. :)
Such as? And I assume you will post your infamous upside down pictures of your piston rifle when you build it.
Razorhunter
05-27-07, 21:29
Well I've spoken to Tina at Specialized Armament, and the Colt LE1020 won't even start production until 2008, and that could ALWAYS get pushed back even FURTHER.
Aside from the Colt, there is talk of Hk starting production here in the U.S. of the Hk 416/417 as well. However, that is apparently 2008 as well.
Again, this is what I've heard from fairly reliable sources in the know, but of course, nothing is etched in stone.
I know of no other gas piston prospects other than the companies mentioned already in this thread.
Who else is there Stickman??????
I would like to hear more technical info from people in the know, in regards to LWRC vs POF vs Hk vs LMT....
I want to know if there is ANY reason I should NOT buy an LWRC or a POF?????
I would absolutely kill to find someone who has taken pictures of all the systems, and done even an amatuer comparison test between the current gas piston rifles... IF however, it's too early for all that, then I would love to at least get some info on which system might be the best design...
If I weren't in the middle of remodeling my entire house right now, I'd buy a POF and an LWRC (and any other gas piston system as soon as it's available), and I'd do the side by side comparison testing.
I would then start a thread to inform all those interested with good UP CLOSE DETAILED pics with GOOD LIGHTING for all to see....
Damn I cannot wait for the day this is done, either by myself, or someone else... I figured after seeing all you guys who own 20-something DI guns, someone would HAD to have got their hands on a POF AND an LWRC by now....
I've not seen any head-to-head comparisons between the POF and LWRC. But there is this interesting quote floating around various forums purportedly from Larry Vickers:
1) I am still a consultant for HK
2)I have 2 HK416 uppers (10 & 14.5 inch) - not complete weapons - yet
3)I have an LWRC SRT gun that I have been using some lately that runs like a champ; it would be my first choice in a piston AR of what is currently available since the HK416 is not
4) A Colt 6920 is a very good gun ( I used one for a long time while instructing) and is just fine for most civilian and LE users - just keep it lubed
5) I recommend a piston AR for the following;
a) barrel length less than 14.5 inches
b) extensive full auto fire
c) wide variety of ammo being used
d) suppressed use
6) I hope the HK416 & 417 will be available to civilians and individual LE officers someday - I have campaigned tirelessly for this since the 416 was introduced
7) The 416 would be my first choice in a 5.56mm assault rifle if given the option
8) I have seen alot of ammo shot out of a 416 (probably more than anyone in the USA) - and in my experience it is MORE accurate than a DI AR - I have seen a 10 inch 416 shoot minute of angle from a machine rest at the factory after being fired 12,000 rds during a lot acceptance test - I, like others who witnessed it, would never have believed it is I had not seen it myself
9) The spec ops users of the 416 I train and know love the gun except for the weight (it has a fairly heavy barrel under that rail system) - HK is offering a lighter profile barrel as an option now
10) I have shot the POF and LWRC and prefer the LWRC for its low weight, quality construction, and use of standard receiver height for optics. The POF is nice but I dont like the taller rail system and nose heavy feel as much, but it is just as functional. [NOTE: this paragraph may not have been part of the original Vickers post; see post 24 below for more info]
Hope this clears some things up
Cheers
Larry Vickers
Personally, I don't like the idea of milling down a normal rail until it's paper thin in spots. Doesn't sound like a combat-ready setup to me.
There are a few semi-interesting posts on TOS discussing POF versus LWRC, but frankly it's mostly things like "Person X says he's seen two Brand X piston guns go down hard during a class but the Brand Y guns ran great." But go ahead and do a search there and other forums and see what you come up with.
If I weren't in the middle of remodeling my entire house right now, I'd buy a POF and an LWRC (and any other gas piston system as soon as it's available), and I'd do the side by side comparison testing.
Small world. I've recently gone through the POF versus LWRC decision process and I'm up to my eyeballs in a whole-house remodel, too. I feel your pain.
I also want to mention that comparing a single specimen of two products would only be good for comparing features. Any testing of relative reliability and even accuracy that is statistically valid would have to test a number of rifles from each manufacturer.
AR15barrels
05-28-07, 01:19
Does ANYONE here know the differences between these gas piston designs? Mainly, referring to the LWRC and the POF, since they are available, or will be real soon.
I have worked on both of them.
I prefer the POF.
Here's why...
The system dis-assembles from the FRONT of the front sight base.
This makes it more able to use different rail systems.
If there were room, a one-piece rail system could be fitted and never removed.
The LWRC system needs the top rail to come off in order to service the piston.
Everyone will tell you that you never have to clean the piston system, but it's still a good practice to "check under the hood" every few thousand rounds.
How else are you going to know if there is any wear on those parts?
You have completely left out an ARES conversion kit.
Take any good carbine length gas system upper and drop an Ares kit into it.
The only issue I have read about on those is the roll pin drifting out.
My suggestion is to tap both the FSB and the spigot 4-40 and rocksett a screw in place.
Razorhunter
05-28-07, 19:25
Hey sproc and Randall,
That is all EXCELLENT INFO brothas!
I'm SO glad you guys posted all that, as it really is nice to know that Vickers thinks both the POF and LWRC are decent.
I also am glad he has campaigned for the Hk's to get in production here in the states, and I'm sure he'll eventually have his way.
Until then, I'm going with LWRC or POF.
Does ANYONE here know anything about the LMT??? I saw a huge article on it, along with excellent pics, in the latest Guns and Ammo magazine, entitled "Book of the AR15".
I've been waiting for this magazine to hit the streets for weeks now, and I've finally got it, and low and behold it had the LMT gas piston write-up in it!
WHO KNOWS when the LMT will be available????
I'm sure SOMEONE has spoken to LMT about this???
Thanks again sproc and Randall. I especially look forward to hearing about your shop experiences Randall. I'm somewhat of a machinist myself, and I absolutely love to see all your jigs, and machines you post from time to time.
I recently sold off my lathe (in hopes of upgrading), along with my Bridgeport mill, but I will soon be back in the saddle, and buy some nicer machines to play with..
What kind of lathe do you run Randall? An import or an old American Classic of some kind???? (ie - Southbend, Clausing, Leblond, Monarch, Hardinge, etc, etc)????
AR15barrels
05-28-07, 23:32
What kind of lathe do you run Randall? An import or an old American Classic of some kind???? (ie - Southbend, Clausing, Leblond, Monarch, Hardinge, etc, etc)????
I have a 2005 vintage 12x36 taiwan machine.
It's been a great machine, but no foot brake.
We used to have an 80's Clausing vari-speed at work before they got rid of the machine shop.
It was a 13x40 with a foot brake.
I really miss that lathe.
When it comes time to move my shop, I'll probably sell the taiwan machine and obtain a Clausing vari-speed 13x40 of my own.
The Vickers quote I posted above was one I grabbed from some other forum that I can't even find anymore. Not feeling comfortable quoting somebody without being sure it was accurate, I went looking for the original quote. I found it here on M4C:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=44097&postcount=99
However, it does not include paragraph #10, which mentions the POF. I don't know if somebody else inserted that or if Vickers himself posted a slightly different version elsewhere that included the POF mention.
So unless somebody can confirm that Vickers said that about the POF, I guess I'd assume he only commented on the HK416 and LWRC piston guns.
Razorhunter
05-30-07, 17:28
Well I have seen the inside mechanics of the LWRC, and the LMT piston guns, but I have NOT seen the insides of the Hk or the POF systems.
Does anyone have pics of the Hk or POF gas systems???
We NEED some up close pics of them! I know I read the POF does NOT use springs of any kind in their system, which is interesting.
The LMT and the LWRC have springs, and can easily be seen when looking at the setups.
I have no idea how the Hk system works, (or the POF), and I would love to see up close pics of these two.
I am also interested to hear from anyone who knows about the LMT system, as it's got a really weird looking piston. They DO refer to it as a piston, but it really looks nothing like a piston (IMO)...
I have the POF, LWR-a LMT conversion job, Bushmaster gas piston AKA POF and a Colt M4 in my hands. I will compare as soon as I can get the range time set up. In the meanwhile, I will take some pics of all in the next few days.:D
LWR-a LMT conversion job
A what? Do you mean an LMT upper converted by LWRC?
I will compare as soon as I can get the range time set up. In the meanwhile, I will take some pics of all in the next few days.
That would be outstanding. Looking forward to it.
Such as? And I assume you will post your infamous upside down pictures of your piston rifle when you build it.
Pretty safe bet. :D
Razorhunter
06-01-07, 23:19
A what? Do you mean an LMT upper converted by LWRC?
That would be outstanding. Looking forward to it.
Negative.
I mean a Lewis Machine Tool Gas Piston Rifle with the Monolithic Rail system.
It's LMT's latest addition to the lineup, and you can see and read all about it in the totally KICK ASS latest issue of "Book of the AR15" by Guns and Ammo Magazine..
LMT has their own gas piston rifle now, and when you see the pics of the piston, you will see what I mean by it looking quite unique, as compared to any of the other gas pistons.
I'm still trying to find pics of the POF system, as it's the only one I've not seen yet. The POF is the only one that does NOT use any type of spring anywhere in the system...
I'm dying to own an Hk, LWRC, or LMT? (dunno, would have to see what the LMT's all about first, and how it compares to the others...)
I am absolutely DYING for us to all reach the point, where we have determined WHICH gas piston rifle(s) will reign supreme over the others...(That is, IF any particular model(s) do end up defeating all others)...!
I just don't have the loot to buy one of each, not to mention the POF and LWRC are the only brands really readily available at this time..
Razorhunter
06-01-07, 23:24
I have the POF, LWR-a LMT conversion job, Bushmaster gas piston AKA POF and a Colt M4 in my hands. I will compare as soon as I can get the range time set up. In the meanwhile, I will take some pics of all in the next few days.:D
BSHNT!!!!
ALL I can say is, YOU DA MAN BRO!!!! I would LOVE to know what you think of POF vs LWRC.
I realize that they could totally both end up being equal in quality, in the long run, (after thousands and thousands of rounds), however, as with EVERYTHING else in life, there has got to be some kind of "Edge" that one holds over the other I would think??
Regardless, I'm still super interested to see the POF pics, AND hear your thoughts of POF vs LWRC...
(I'm personally leaning towards LWRC) at this time, for my gas piston purchase. However, this is solely because the Hk's just aren't realistically available at this time...
What a shame Hk doesn't grab the world by the balls and start producing here in the States yet. They'd dominate the hell out of the market, IF they did it RIGHT... (ie - reasonable prices like the rest of the world)...
photobucket.com/albums/v606/bshnt2015/?action=view¤t=1180797354.pbw
OK, hopefully this will work as a slide show for the POF and LWR ( LMT conversion ). The gas piston technology-POF and short stroke piston-LWR are well made and nicely finished products. The workmanship was fantastic on both. The LMT upper was already a great product but enhancement from LWRC, kinda like plastic surgery for Ms Lohan:D, made it nicer.
The LMT upper originally started off as a traditional gas tube upper. Like some out there, I was wanting more out of the AR system and reading the web and bloggers out there. I decided to put my hard earn $$$ out there to see what
was available. Do you hear me HK?
Respectfully to both companies, I had NO problems with ordering, shipping, delivery, or customer service. All e-mails and phone calls were dealt with. My LEO status did give me some advantage.
As you can see, the finished products offer different advantages. The POF barrel was fluted and the front sight assembly can be removed. The BCG on the POF was finished in a nice bright nickel finish. This POF upper was an early version prior to POF making the BCG a solid piece unit. Please refer to their websites for details. The gas rings on bolt for the POF were removed.
The LWR conversion using some of my original LMT parts were transplanted into the new BCG. The dull nickel finish was equally well done by LWR. The gas rings on the original LMT bolt were left on. I will find out if this makes any differences in operations or performance when the next phase begins at the range. Both BCG were slick and smooth. LWR did not offer a fluted barrrel, I may be wrong but didnot ask them about it.
As to $$$$, the POF upper can be purchased as a complete unit. I am not sure if they are doing conversion job yet. Since I had a LMT upper already and did not want to make another purchase, I tried to save some $$$$ here. The conversion job from LWR was around $675-700. Please check with both companies for pricing. An complete upper for POF was around $975.00-1200.00, depending on the type of rail system you buy and a complete upper from LWR was about $1200.00, again what rail system can increase cost.
Breaking down both systems were fast and easy, POF a bit easier and faster. The upper on the POF had a nice teflon finish on the charging handle and interior of the upper receiver. With the LWR conversion, you need to remove the hand guard. The POF gas piston vs LWR short stroke gas piston, nice finish on both and each had advantages and smaller parts to work with. If I left something out , please remind me or ask. It's Saturday and I'm not awake yet.
I will follow up in the next few weeks, hopefully to shoot all the AR, tough job here;) . Since the Bushmaster was a copy of the POF, licensed to them. I did not feel the need to take pics-but I will later. The BCG for the BM was kept basic, no nickel finish or enhancements. The original Colt, well lets just say enough said. Range report to follow. Cheers. PLease cut and paste web link
to view slide show, I couldnot get the pics to download here.
Sorry for the delay getting back. I was amazed with how many recent articles were popping up regarding LWRC and POF.
My very simple test of shot them both resulted with similar findings like in all the published articles. Meaning the rifles works. This was not meant to be scientific test, rather a "fun" test for me. I am not a gun magazine writer, just someone who wanted to try a "new gadget" out. Refer to 2007 Guns & Ammo Book of the AR-15, an article on both the POF and LWRC.
Both rifles had no problems with FTF or FTE, no major mechanical issues other then POF ejection port cover spring broke during the test. Both rifles ran hot, I suggest using a nomex glove. The POF was easier to take apart. I had to call LWRC and get their help to take apart the LWRC, they told me they would update their website with "how to" section.
I ran both rifles with Federal (55 gr) and some Hornady (75 gr). Both loads were accurate with the 75 gr showing a tighter group. My simple test was to see how each rifle would do and to satisfy my curiosity. I spoke with other operators who had some minor issues with their BM built POF and a POF owner who had some trouble in a AR class. I did not experience any chambering issues with the POF or LWRC. I can only speak for myself and say I had no major problems.
From a daily use, I appreciate the fact, you spend very minimal time on cleaning the LWRC or POF. I can see the difference compared with my DI Colt 6920 after approximately 1K rds. Yes I am lazy. I did not experience or notice any
stringing-vertical hits, of rds by either rifles. My co-worked mentioned this to me with his BM/POF.
I am satisfed with the LWRC and POF. I will shot more when ammo comes in and try to updates this as much as possible. If you are in the market for a LWRC or POF and have some extra cash to spend, why not. I like the LWRC. I have to give the POF back to my buddy. I like what the gas piston technology offers and if this is the future of the AR, what a great way to go.
POF and LWRC uppers. The LWRC was a LMT DI upper converted to gas piston. The pics were taken after shooting it. The last pic is LMT BCG on top with POF BCG on the bottom, no jokes please. A pic of the HK BCG for comparison.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v606/bshnt2015/?action=view¤t=1180797354.pbw
Greetings from Montana!
I have had zero problems in regards to contact with POF, I call ... they anwer, if I email Chris...he responds
Had a Timney trigger fail from a complete POF lower, aside from having to pay for shipping, had it replaced in ~1 week.
Early Timney triggers had some issues, once the problem was identified, Timney retooled, and addressed the issue. With my POF I requested that it have a standard trigger and not the Timney as I feel the Timney is too light for a duty weapon. I also feel that any of the guys who I loan it out to during courses would find the trigger too different from their own M16/ AR15s during drills.
TigerStripe
01-19-08, 01:18
Early Timney triggers had some issues, once the problem was identified, Timney retooled, and addressed the issue. With my POF I requested that it have a standard trigger and not the Timney as I feel the Timney is too light for a duty weapon. I also feel that any of the guys who I loan it out to during courses would find the trigger too different from their own M16/ AR15s during drills.
Have any problems with it???
TS
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