Battle Rifles

[graffex]

I'm interested in getting a battle rifle and I'm curious what rifles you guys prefer. I don't have much knowledge about battle rifles, although I've shot M1A's, and a G3 on several occasions. I'm trying to decide between a M1A, FAL, or G3 clone. Which weapon system do you think is the best and why?

[RWBlue]

Is there a reason why you are not looking at the AR-10 or AR-10 clone?

[GastonG-NoVa]

DSA FAL.

Great battle rifle, parts and mags are dirt cheap. You can nearly be a trained monkey and work on one.

[TOrrock]

Battle rifles that I've owned or currently own....FAL, M14, HK 91, Beretta BM-59.

I've shot several AR-10's and a SIG AMT.

Of these, my all around favorite is a quality built FAL, meaning original FN, Springfield Armory imported factory Imbel, DSA, or a rifle built by a named, qualified smith who knows what they're doing.

The FAL is more than decently accurate, extremely reliable, and has very good ergonomics. The manual of arms is similar to an AR system as well. The FAL allows for ease of optics use.

Spare parts and magazines are readily avaliable, and the adjustable gas system allows for a wide variety of ammunition types to be used without over stressing the rifle.

The other rifle that I'd pick without any reservation is a decently built M14 system. These rifles are the product improved M1 Garand, and might have an edge in reliablity over the FAL, but it's probably a slight edge. Spare parts are getting hard to find, and some people don't like the ergonomics. The safety is inside the forward part of the trigger guard, just like a Garand.

The HK roller locking system found in the HK G3/91 and the CETME is a very reliable system, but it's also a very dirty one. These rifles aren't gas operated, they are roller locking delayed blowback, and have a fluted chamber which allows the spent case to be floated on some of the gas from the fired round. As the bolt carrier moves out of battery, the case is blown out of the chamber. This makes for positive extraction and ejection, but also blows crap back into the chamber. This is a MUCH dirtier system than an AR's direct impingement system. The length of the receiver also makes it hard to clean and get into the chamber area well.

The ergonomics on the G3 system suck worse than an AK. The cocking handle is poorly placed and sometimes takes a lot of effort to work the action, the magazine button is hard to get to (although if you have a paddle mag release retrofitted to the rifle this helps alot). The triggers usually suck, and the ergonomics of the buttstock also leave a lot to be desired.

I've talked with a number of guys who have carried the G3 overseas and while they are reliable rifles, they aren't usually well liked. I've also heard anectdotal stories about the stamped receivers on these being dented which takes the rifle out of action.

The FAL and the G3 are used and have been used all over the world in every climate, from artic to Saharan, from jungle to steppe, and they work. The FAL is a very labor intensive, expensive rifle to build, while the G3 can be built relatively easily by a 3rd world country with some manufacturing base (Pakistan among others), which is why they are still very popular there and took some of the FAL's thunder...simple economics.

The M14 lived a short life as a front line rifle, about the only other countries to adopt it were countries that we gave them to or we sold the machnery to (Taiwan, Phillipines). Cost of manufacture was (and is) very high on these.

The original Armalite AR-10 as built by the Dutch for the Portuguese, Sudanese, Nicaraguans, etc., was an excellent rifle, but the modern AR-10 style rifles are pale shadows. Unfortunately, the civillian AR-10 (and SR-25) rifles have come from civillian designs and manufacturing facilities that have not had the benefit of a large scale gov't contract to wring them out to correct flaws, like the contracts of the 1960's. The Portuguese liked their AR-10's more than the FAL's and G3's that they were being issued in Angola and Mozmbique.

So....my $0.02.....a quality FAL or M14 rifle is hard to beat as an overall battle rifle. The G3 works, but I'll never own another one, and I've owned 2 HK's, 2 of the Springfield Armory Greek imports, and one Portuguese rifle, all quality rifles, but all a pain in the ass to run.

Hope that helps.

[graffex]

Is there a reason why you are not looking at the AR-10 or AR-10 clone?

Because they're garbage.

[graffex]

Battle rifles that I've owned or currently own....FAL, M14, HK 91, Beretta BM-59.

I've shot several AR-10's and a SIG AMT.

Of these, my all around favorite is a quality built FAL, meaning original FN, Springfield Armory imported factory Imbel, DSA, or a rifle built by a named, qualified smith who knows what they're doing.

The FAL is more than decently accurate, extremely reliable, and has very good ergonomics. The manual of arms is similar to an AR system as well. The FAL allows for ease of optics use.

Spare parts and magazines are readily avaliable, and the adjustable gas system allows for a wide variety of ammunition types to be used without over stressing the rifle.

The other rifle that I'd pick without any reservation is a decently built M14 system. These rifles are the product improved M1 Garand, and might have an edge in reliablity over the FAL, but it's probably a slight edge. Spare parts are getting hard to find, and some people don't like the ergonomics. The safety is inside the forward part of the trigger guard, just like a Garand.

The HK roller locking system found in the HK G3/91 and the CETME is a very reliable system, but it's also a very dirty one. These rifles aren't gas operated, they are roller locking delayed blowback, and have a fluted chamber which allows the spent case to be floated on some of the gas from the fired round. As the bolt carrier moves out of battery, the case is blown out of the chamber. This makes for positive extraction and ejection, but also blows crap back into the chamber. This is a MUCH dirtier system than an AR's direct impingement system. The length of the receiver also makes it hard to clean and get into the chamber area well.

The ergonomics on the G3 system suck worse than an AK. The cocking handle is poorly placed and sometimes takes a lot of effort to work the action, the magazine button is hard to get to (although if you have a paddle mag release retrofitted to the rifle this helps alot). The triggers usually suck, and the ergonomics of the buttstock also leave a lot to be desired.

I've talked with a number of guys who have carried the G3 overseas and while they are reliable rifles, they aren't usually well liked. I've also heard anectdotal stories about the stamped receivers on these being dented which takes the rifle out of action.

The FAL and the G3 are used and have been used all over the world in every climate, from artic to Saharan, from jungle to steppe, and they work. The FAL is a very labor intensive, expensive rifle to build, while the G3 can be built relatively easily by a 3rd world country with some manufacturing base (Pakistan among others), which is why they are still very popular there and took some of the FAL's thunder...simple economics.

The M14 lived a short life as a front line rifle, about the only other countries to adopt it were countries that we gave them to or we sold the machnery to (Taiwan, Phillipines). Cost of manufacture was (and is) very high on these.

The original Armalite AR-10 as built by the Dutch for the Portuguese, Sudanese, Nicaraguans, etc., was an excellent rifle, but the modern AR-10 style rifles are pale shadows. Unfortunately, the civillian AR-10 (and SR-25) rifles have come from civillian designs and manufacturing facilities that have not had the benefit of a large scale gov't contract to wring them out to correct flaws, like the contracts of the 1960's. The Portuguese liked their AR-10's more than the FAL's and G3's that they were being issued in Angola and Mozmbique.

So....my $0.02.....a quality FAL or M14 rifle is hard to beat as an overall battle rifle. The G3 works, but I'll never own another one, and I've owned 2 HK's, 2 of the Springfield Armory Greek imports, and one Portuguese rifle, all quality rifles, but all a pain in the ass to run.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for all the info Templar that helps alot ;) I think there maybe a DSA FAL carbine coming home in the future.

[Cameron]

Definitely consider a FAL.

I picked up a DSA SA58 Tactical Carbine a month ago and I am more than very impressed. This rifle is an amazingly well made version of the best battle rifle made. The ergonomics are excellent, reliability is second to none and accuracy is exceptional. Remember that the modern DSA made version have Badger Custom barrels and are capable of Sub MOA!!!

My particular rifle has a 16.24" fluted Badger barrel and the Hampton Lower with the M16A2 rear sight, yielding a sight picture the same as my M4. I also used it this past weekend to hammer a 16" x 12" gong at 500 yards.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m198/2007cam/DSA%20Para/DSASA58ParaL01.jpg

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m198/2007cam/DSA%20Para/DSASA58ParaR02.jpg

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m198/2007cam/DSA%20Para/DSASA58ParaFoldedR02.jpg

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m198/2007cam/DSA%20Para/DSASA58ParaFoldedL01.jpg

[David Thomas]

Thanks for all the info Templar that helps alot ;)

You can always count on Templar to point you in the right direction and give helpful advice.

[MaceWindu]

Because they're garbage.

Agreed. They have ZIPPO durability.


Mace

[GLOCKCRAZZ]

DSA FAL
My old setup:
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/4526/fal4x0nh.jpg
My latest setup:
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/1557/dscf0068ct7.jpg

[Turbo Supra]

No denying that an FAL is an incredible rifle! I am currently in the process of acquiring a DSA carbine model.

However, there is nothing wrong with a good G3 variant. They are cheap, durable, parts are everywhere, and mags are like $1.50 each. :D I am on my second, and both were built by IGF. My latest is a G3K clone built on a JLD/PTR91 receiver using FMP and US parts. As far as ergonomics are concerned, I have added a paddle mag release which helps a LOT. The only issues are really the charging handle location and lack of last-round-bolt-hold-open. I even had a second locking position machined in my stock rails so I have a few length choices. I highly recommend doing that. They can be dirty little guns (especially with old South African ammo), but, fortunately, you only need to clean them after a lot of use if you don't want to be anal. They will still run well when dirty. I can't make mine fail if I try. She's a trooper...

Here are some pics with 2 different trigger housings:

http://www.imageviper.com/displayimage/88201/0/G3K1.jpg
http://www.imageviper.com/displayimage/88202/0/G3K2.jpg
http://www.imageviper.com/displayimage/88205/0/G3K3.jpg
http://www.imageviper.com/displayimage/88206/0/G3K4.jpg
http://www.imageviper.com/displayimage/88207/0/G3K5.jpg
http://www.imageviper.com/displayimage/88208/0/G3K6.jpg
http://www.imageviper.com/displayimage/88529/0/G3K_IGF1.jpg
http://www.imageviper.com/displayimage/88530/0/G3K_IGF2.jpg
http://www.imageviper.com/displayimage/88531/0/G3K_IGF3.jpg

[Lumpy196]

M14/M1A or FAL are the only ones in my book. I own an M1A, but were I to go in search of a battle rifle again, Id pick up a DSA FAL. Its easier to mount optics and the magazine and spare parts prices cant be beat.


I am NOT a fan of the AR10, and trust me, Id kill for a 7.62NATO AR platform thats box-stock reliable with a chrome-lined barrel.

[militarymoron]

i own/owned a couple of FALs, HK91, M1A.
a FAL would be my first pick of the three for the reasons templar already mentioned. i find the FAL the most ergonomic and natural for me to shoot - the HK91 the harshest felt-recoiling.
never owned a 7.62 AR-type.
just my .02.