View Full Version : Thoughts on CCW and carrying a BUG
gtmtnbiker98
06-03-10, 12:38
Looking for some dialogue here. Last week I posted a question about J-frames and received lots of commentary that I found to be particularly useful. Since then, I purchased a 642-1 this past Monday and love it.
Now, I'm curious to learn the forum's opinions on carrying a BUG when out and about as John Q. Public. In talking with a few co-workers (LEOs), they mentioned that it seems to be border line paranoia. I am considering moving to carrying a BUG when out of uniform; however, I am also asking myself whether or not one is needed.
As of now, I do not carry a BUG while on duty (in uniform) but that is soon changing, once I qualify with the 642. So, how many of you carry a BUG both LEO and as John Q. Public?
I tried searching the forum for similar topics and failed to find any similar threads. If this is a redundant thread, then please delete. I do not want to cause anymore redundant threads.
My current EDC is a P2000SK V3 9mm.
I've never used one. Why not just put it IWB without an Holster. I've carried this way for years.
MadcapMagician
06-03-10, 13:06
For CCW as John Q I see the hierarchy as follows:
A backup is better than nothing/knives/fists..
A primary pistol is better..
A primary pistol with reload is a little better..
A primary pistol with a backup is getting better..
A primary pistol with a reload and backup is even better..
A primary pistol, reload and a backup with reload is best.
Your assessment of your operating environment and perceived need of armaments will drive your selection/placement on the hierarchy.
For me, a Glock 19 with a 19rd reload and a 442 work quite well. It's awfully easy to drop a J-frame in a pocket and not break a sweat.
gtmtnbiker98
06-03-10, 13:10
I've never used one. Why not just put it IWB without an Holster. I've carried this way for years.I'm not following your logic here, how does that relate to the topic? Besides, "Mexican Carry" is insane.
Prior to LE work
Glock 22/23 as a primary and a smith 340 as a back up.
Begining LE work Glock 22 as primary duty 22 / 23 off duty depending on day / dress. 340 as back up
Current LE work Glock 21 Primary 21/19 off duty depending and guess what.... 340 BUG 85-90% of the time off duty and all the time on duty. front left pocket in a desanties holster.
MarshallDodge
06-03-10, 13:16
As a civilian, I personally do not carry a bug but I am interested in the discussion because I can't come up with a good reason to start.
The reason has to be your own. there has been times that my girl and i have been together. I needed Gas or slurpees or whatever reason.. I didnt like the area id leave her my 340 and lock the doors. Its better than nothing.
i also like the idea having my hand in my pocket on a loaded firearm when pumping gas/ walking and not look like ive got a gun. thats just me
My John Q Trained Public Opinion:
I understand carrying a BUG to my primary pistol is tactically sound in case of malfunction or otherwise loss of primary. But I already carry so much crap around everyday carrying another gun is just not practicle for me.
I have a full size 1911. Two reloads. Surefire L4. Folding blade. Sometimes a box cutter. Wallet. Cell phone. Keys. I cant comfortably add another item.
I feel that the subset of rare circumstances that would have me needing a BUG are so remote that they do not compel me to surrender anymore of my personal comfort.
I also am not sold on guns that would be so small that I could carry them comfortably with all my other EDC items. How long will it take me to access that tiny 380 tucked away in the middle of a fight for my life where I have already either run dry on 3 mags or had a stoppage that a tap-rack wouldnt fix? In that circumstance will this little hard to shoot low cap small calliber pistol really do me any good?
I have to weight the cost vs. benifit. And for me I dont see it as practicle.
YMMV
ETA: I am scheduled to take Handgun II with Randy Cain at the end of August and we are to go over the use and deployment of a BUG. Once I get some training with that set up, as I will try it out for that section of class, I will have more information to base a solid opinion on.
I carry a BUG as much as possible. My primary is a Glock 19, IWB with a 26 around my ankle. Some times the 26 gets to go out by itself depending on what I am wearing. With dress clothes it goes in a tuckable IWB apendix carry. I try to have two as much as I can along with a E2D. Since I can run 19 mags in the 26 I dont bother with a spare mag.
John_Wayne777
06-03-10, 13:31
Now, I'm curious to learn the forum's opinions on carrying a BUG when out and about as John Q. Public. In talking with a few co-workers (LEOs), they mentioned that it seems to be border line paranoia.
That's because they are idiots. Guns break. Guns malfunction. Guns run out of ammunition. In gunfights people get hit in the arms/hands, sometimes in such a way that they can no longer use that arm/hand. If said arm/hand was the hand you were depending on to be able to draw a pistol to defend yourself...well...you're just crap out of luck, right? Now if by some chance you realized ahead of time that gunfights don't always go according to script and you carried a BUG on your weak side and suddenly found yourself facing a threat with your strong arm out of commission, it would be awful nice to be able to draw a 642 and shoot at the bad guy rather than just wait for him to finish you off.
It's also helpful when you're in a ground fight with some dude who has you pinned in such a way that you can't get to that gun on your strong side. I know an officer, for instance, who successfully defended against a weapon grab attempt from a much larger and stronger man by pulling a S&W revolver from his weak side, putting the muzzle in contact with the bad guy's head, and pulling the trigger.
Before the police send the SWAT team to go after some violent felon with overwhelming force, he generally has some sort of violent interaction with somebody who doesn't have level IV body armor, a machine gun, and six or seven dudes on his six. Given that type of bad guy sometimes succeeds in killing dudes who actually roll with all of that stuff, it seems rather silly to argue that a lone individual trying to defend against the attack of that caliber of bad guy doesn't really "need" a plan B.
As for John Q. Public, John Q. goes about his daily life without the benefit of body armor or backup. John Q. probably isn't rolling with a shotgun or a carbine in his trunk. If the cops in his area are really on the ball and traffic permits they can get there about 2 minutes after the 911 call goes out...which might as well be an eternity if John Q. is facing some dude who wants to kill him.
So no, carrying a BUG isn't borderline paranoia any more than carrying a spare magazine or a flashlight or first aid supplies is paranoia. That's not to say everyone has to pack one all the time, but if they can find a BUG option that they can carry without any real addition to their burden (like an airweight or lighter S&W revolver) then why not?
Think about it: If it gets to the point where you are pulling a handgun to try and end the life of another human being before he can end yours...well...you're having a pretty bad day. Do not expect that suddenly things will start going your way once you clear leather.
I am considering moving to carrying a BUG when out of uniform; however, I am also asking myself whether or not one is needed.
"Needed" is a funny word. I carry every day of my life...but so far on the overwhelming majority of those days I've never actually "needed" my pistol. Because shooting people is not really a primary focus of my vocation or lifestyle, generally my pistols are just extra weight. The same would apply to a BUG...you don't need one until you need one...but then you REALLY NEED IT.
Now that's not to say everyone absolutely must pack a BUG. I'm just saying that life sometimes sucks, that it sucks pretty hard when someone is trying to kill you, and that in some situations a BUG can help life suck a little bit less and last a bit longer. If someone examines their particular situation and decides the BUG isn't really for them, so be it. All of us have different situations and considerations that determines "need" in our mind. I have no beef with that.
When someone insists, however, that the carry of a BUG is a physical manifestation of some sort of diseased mindset like paranoia or the rambo syndrome, it makes me want to split their skull with a sledgehammer. I can point to a number of situations where BUGs have actually been used to great effect, but generally in response I get "what are the odds?" or "but I'm not a cop" speeches which frankly are about as stupid as it gets because:
1. Absent a crystal ball you will NEVER know the odds ahead of time
2. The notion that somehow police deal with bad guys that are super extra bad is pretty stupid since those idiots generally commit violent crimes against ordinary joes before the local constabulary takes note of their misdeeds.
As of now, I do not carry a BUG while on duty (in uniform) but that is soon changing, once I qualify with the 642.
Good idea on or off duty. Probably ought to be a requirement on duty.
So, how many of you carry a BUG both LEO and as John Q. Public?
As John Q, I carry one almost all the time. Long, long ago I read an article in a gun magazine written by a dude with a funny mustache that laid out some pretty good reasons for carrying a backup and I thought he made a lot of sense. Later on when attending a handgun course I found that the Beretta on my hip was a paperweight due to a busted firing pin. I had fired the weapon just TWO DAYS before and it worked fine, but when I stepped up to the line to use the weapon it went click instead of bang. After that, I was convinced that the dude with the funny mustache was a damn genius and I've carried a BUG ever since.
I tried searching the forum for similar topics and failed to find any similar threads. If this is a redundant thread, then please delete. I do not want to cause anymore redundant threads.
No worries there, bro. It's a good topic.
i also like the idea having my hand in my pocket on a loaded firearm when pumping gas/ walking and not look like ive got a gun. thats just me
Ditto. There are times when it's nice to have the drop on somebody who thinks they have the drop on you.
gtmtnbiker98
06-03-10, 13:43
That's because they are idiots. Guns break. Guns malfunction. Guns run out of ammunition. In gunfights people get hit in the arms/hands, sometimes in such a way that they can no longer use that arm/hand. If said arm/hand was the hand you were depending on to be able to draw a pistol to defend yourself...well...you're just crap out of luck, right? Now if by some chance you realized ahead of time that gunfights don't always go according to script and you carried a BUG on your weak side and suddenly found yourself facing a threat with your strong arm out of commission, it would be awful nice to be able to draw a 642 and shoot at the bad guy rather than just wait for him to finish you off.
It's also helpful when you're in a ground fight with some dude who has you pinned in such a way that you can't get to that gun on your strong side. I know an officer, for instance, who successfully defended against a weapon grab attempt from a much larger and stronger man by pulling a S&W revolver from his weak side, putting the muzzle in contact with the bad guy's head, and pulling the trigger.
Before the police send the SWAT team to go after some violent felon with overwhelming force, he generally has some sort of violent interaction with somebody who doesn't have level IV body armor, a machine gun, and six or seven dudes on his six. Given that type of bad guy sometimes succeeds in killing dudes who actually roll with all of that stuff, it seems rather silly to argue that a lone individual trying to defend against the attack of that caliber of bad guy doesn't really "need" a plan B.
As for John Q. Public, John Q. goes about his daily life without the benefit of body armor or backup. John Q. probably isn't rolling with a shotgun or a carbine in his trunk. If the cops in his area are really on the ball and traffic permits they can get there about 2 minutes after the 911 call goes out...which might as well be an eternity if John Q. is facing some dude who wants to kill him.
So no, carrying a BUG isn't borderline paranoia any more than carrying a spare magazine or a flashlight or first aid supplies is paranoia. That's not to say everyone has to pack one all the time, but if they can find a BUG option that they can carry without any real addition to their burden (like an airweight or lighter S&W revolver) then why not?
Think about it: If it gets to the point where you are pulling a handgun to try and end the life of another human being before he can end yours...well...you're having a pretty bad day. Do not expect that suddenly things will start going your way once you clear leather.
"Needed" is a funny word. I carry every day of my life...but so far on the overwhelming majority of those days I've never actually "needed" my pistol. Because shooting people is not really a primary focus of my vocation or lifestyle, generally my pistols are just extra weight. The same would apply to a BUG...you don't need one until you need one...but then you REALLY NEED IT.
Now that's not to say everyone absolutely must pack a BUG. I'm just saying that life sometimes sucks, that it sucks pretty hard when someone is trying to kill you, and that in some situations a BUG can help life suck a little bit less and last a bit longer. If someone examines their particular situation and decides the BUG isn't really for them, so be it. All of us have different situations and considerations that determines "need" in our mind. I have no beef with that.
When someone insists, however, that the carry of a BUG is a physical manifestation of some sort of diseased mindset like paranoia or the rambo syndrome, it makes me want to split their skull with a sledgehammer. I can point to a number of situations where BUGs have actually been used to great effect, but generally in response I get "what are the odds?" or "but I'm not a cop" speeches which frankly are about as stupid as it gets because:
1. Absent a crystal ball you will NEVER know the odds ahead of time
2. The notion that somehow police deal with bad guys that are super extra bad is pretty stupid since those idiots generally commit violent crimes against ordinary joes before the local constabulary takes note of their misdeeds.
Good idea on or off duty. Probably ought to be a requirement on duty.
As John Q, I carry one almost all the time. Long, long ago I read an article in a gun magazine written by a dude with a funny mustache that laid out some pretty good reasons for carrying a backup and I thought he made a lot of sense. Later on when attending a handgun course I found that the Beretta on my hip was a paperweight due to a busted firing pin. I had fired the weapon just TWO DAYS before and it worked fine, but when I stepped up to the line to use the weapon it went click instead of bang. After that, I was convinced that the dude with the funny mustache was a damn genius and I've carried a BUG ever since.
No worries there, bro. It's a good topic.
Ditto. There are times when it's nice to have the drop on somebody who thinks they have the drop on you.JW, why is it that you always have a way of making sense? I wish you had been a party of our conversation yesterday. I guess that I'm not as quick witted as some. I just rolled my eyes and said, whatever. Out of 21-officers on my department (including reserves) only two carries a BUG about half the time. I used to carry a G26 on my ankle when I first started but since stopped carrying a BUG ten or more years ago. But with recent events and current state of economy, it's getting down right "nuts" out there.
I carry a BUG every day. Guns are mechanical devices and like everything else they can go "tits up" when you least expect it. A BUG only makes sense to me............maybe not to you, but it does to me.
Daily Carry:
S&W M&P9 full size
BUG:
S&W 360PD in .357 mag in pocket holster
OR
Magnum Research Micro Eagle in .380
MadDog :p
John_Wayne777
06-03-10, 13:51
JW, why is it that you always have a way of making sense? I wish you had been a party of our conversation yesterday. I guess that I'm not as quick witted as some. I just rolled my eyes and said, whatever. Out of 21-officers on my department (including reserves) only two carries a BUG about half the time. I used to carry a G26 on my ankle when I first started but since stopped carrying a BUG ten or more years ago. But with recent events and current state of economy, it's getting down right "nuts" out there.
It has always been nuts out there.
Example:
In my area there is a small municipality that has 3 officers. One is the police chief. He was a Trooper for a while until some hammerhead smashed into him at high speed. After recovering he became the COP for this small town. One day he's out doing his thing when he sees a suspicious vehicle with three dudes in it that runs a stop sign. He pulls them over. He is approaching the vehicle when he gets an urgent ONA call over the radio. He waives them on and goes to help the radio call for ONA.
A few days later he gets a call from a large metro police department detective who has two of those guys that were in the car in custody. Turns out they were hardcore violent felons running from warrants on murder. When caught they mentioned some hick cop in Virginia who got lucky because he "changed his mind" about stopping them. They fully intended to kill him. Their guns were loaded and ready and they had a plan of action in case they were pulled over. They would start with the through-the-window shots to get him on the ground, and then the plan was to put 3 or 4 in his head just to make sure.
The most dangerous event prior to that little episode in the previous six months was a cow that got loose and was wandering in the road.
You never know what's out there or what you are going to have to do to beat it. Having options is good. My assumption is that if I'm in a situation where I have to draw a handgun and pull the trigger, it will only end when the bad guy is dead. I don't factor in escape or the bad guy losing his nerve to fight. I assume that he's going to push it to the absolute limit and that it will only be over when his life functions have ceased as a result of gunfire. Now obviously if I'm presented with a situation where escape is a realistic possibility or the bad guy gives up before then, goody goody...but I don't want to depend on that to happen. A BUG puts me closer to that goal.
I carry a 642-2 in a weakside pocket holster as a backup to my strongside IWB Glock 34. I also carry a spare mag for the G34, flashlight, cell phone, pressure bandage, tourniquet, folding knife, etc.
I advocate carrying a backup gun for all the reasons that JohnWayne777 stated so well earlier in this thread.
I am a 56 Y.O. ordinary citizen, not an LEO.
ROCKET20_GINSU
06-03-10, 15:25
To further muddy the waters I think that there is a difference between civy CCW and LEO off duty CCW. I fall into the former category(civy) and I don't pretend to "know" anything about being an off duty LEO but I do perceive a different set of mission requirements.
BLUF: I don't think there is ever a circumstance where it would be bad to carry a BUG; however, I also think that necessary and practical are also two very subjective criteria that need to be addressed in this context.
Here is why I, as a civy CCW'er, don't usually carry a BUG:
My Plan A: E&E, My plan B: "stand and deliver" so that I can E&E, My plan C: employ my Emerson HD7 or HAK as a last resort...hopefully survive to E&E :)
Low threat lifestyle and living area
No requirement to "close with", engage or capture enemies/criminals
Reliable primary (G26, G19 or J-Frame 642)
(I'm not LEO so take this for what it's worth...very little) I would carry a BUG if I was on or off duty because:
Possibility of making enemies during routine duties
May feel compelled to "help" a fellow LEO in need and thus may be required to move towards a threat
Can help arm a fellow LEO who's primary may have malfunctioned or run dry
Greater chance of loosing primary because they may be required to go "hands on" with criminal
I would carry a BUG as a civy CCW if one or more of the following conditions were present:
Carrying a less than 100% or low capacity primary (example: if I was carrying my personal 1911, which I don't, I would definitely carry my 642 also)
Going to a higher crime rate area of town (volunteer work, dinner, etc.)
Possible situation where I may want/need to arm my fiancee
At the range, because I'm practicing with my primary USPSA/IDPA gun and often run it dry during drills, I like to keep a pistol in my pocket just to make sure I have a pistol ready if something unexpected occurs.
Anytime I wear armor, I hardly ever wear armor now a days as a civilian but hypothetically if I was entering a situation where I felt armor was warranted I would definitely want a BUG as well.
I don't think that having a BUG + primary CCW is excessive or indicative of too much paranoia, on the contrary I think it is always "better" to have a BUG. This is especially true if you are a LEO, but it is not always necessary as it may not always be practical (dress / lifestyle) and deciding if you "need one" should be mission and environment driven. When I was in the military I always carried a secondary, but as a civilian I already carry enough crap in my pockets and on my person that I do not feel that I need a BUG for my day to day activities. It is true that most of the time you cannot pick the time or place when the fight comes to you, but I feel confident that my normal CCW pistol G26 with 10+1 and 17rd reload is enough to neutralize or break contact from the "most likely enemy course of action". If I lived somewhere else, was carrying something else or was doing something else that may change.
Just my thoughts YMMV,
GU
jklaughrey
06-03-10, 15:45
Duty Primary G23 BUG G23
Off Duty Primary G23 BUG G27
Summer/light carry Star single stack 9mm as BUG
I have always been a firm believer in what my father taught me. Your BUG should typically mirror your Primary when possible. All that aside a nice J frame makes for a perfect BUG in your trousers.
Having a BUG or two increases your options. You may be able to access a BUG but not a primary. You may have a need to arm others. Your primary may be lost, disabled, or otherwise unavailable to you.
With dedication, carrying two is no more inconvenient than carrying one. Carrying three is little more inconvenient than carrying two.
To further muddy the waters I think that there is a difference between civy CCW and LEO off duty CCW. I fall into the former category(civy) and I don't pretend to "know" anything about being an off duty LEO but I do preceive a different set of mission requirements.
While I think there are some differences, the off-duty LEO and CCW are much more alike than different, as are the expectations of them. That is why citizens should be extended every right and privilege in the use, possession, ownership, and carriage of arms that LEOs have.
I am an LEO, but I regard myself as a citizen first.
SeriousStudent
06-03-10, 17:52
JW_777 pounced on the facts, as usual. You need to cut and paste a lot of these into a sticky, sir.
I think that Rocket20_Ginsu and Skintop911 made an excellent point that is very often overlooked.
Having a BUG means you can arm another lawful person. I always thought that rule number 1 was "Have a gun." I think rule number 2 is "Bring friends with guns."
(Okay, rule 3 is make sure the guns are belt-fed, and rule 4 involves JDAM deliveries....)
So if I carry a primary (usually a G-19) it's very easy to drop a 642 with Laser Grips in the left front pocket.
On Sundays, I carry two primaries to church. I'm an armed usher, and my position is near the door to the nursery. I can walk two steps, and hand a spare pistol to a retired cop in the choir loft. They then have two piles of warm brass to climb over, before they get to the kids.
You ain't paranoid, my friend.
Gtmtnbiker98 - Thank you for your service to our community, and stay safe.
I beat myself up about this topic on a daily basis. I read a magazine article about an officer down south who was attacked by a prisoner in his vehicle while it was moving. There was a fight for his primary and the prisoner got the upper hand. The officer drew his BUG and it was dropped to the floor on the opposite side of the vehicle. The officer then drew his BUBUG and finished off the bad guy with a round to the head only after being shot through the hand with his primary. My department has 10 officers. I am the only one that carries a BUG. When I am suiting up and they see my BUG in my vest holster, guys roll their eyes at me. The way I carry it will not be effective if I cannot reach my primary in a pinch. It takes too long to access my BUG. As a civi, or off duty, I never carry a BUG. I do think about it sometimes but never do. My thought process as a man in regular clothes with a gun in his hand is a threat to the bad guy and a threat to the responding uniforms too, until identified (hopefully before shot). Most police are not "gun guys" and the few that are, are looked at funny. Not that I care but this is a known issue. I carry a G23 anytime I am not at work and my duty BUG (Kahr K40) is in my vehicle when off duty. That is the closest I get to having a BUG off duty. I read this thread very carefully and all have very good points for carrying a BUG all the time. I personally don't see the need to carry a BUG off duty because of the extra weight and my personal views of my position as an armed citizen.
a primary and a backup is more than i can comfortably conceal. i do usually carry a spare g19 mag for either gun (19 or 26) in my left front pocket.
if i were LE i'd be more likely to carry 2 guns off duty even, as you guys probably tend to get on the bad side of some dangerous folks.
a primary and a backup is more than i can comfortably conceal. i do usually carry a spare g19 mag for either gun (19 or 26) in my left front pocket.
L/R ankle, L/R pocket, support side IWB? Not even a PTA3 or LCP?
if i were LE i'd be more likely to carry 2 guns off duty even, as you guys probably tend to get on the bad side of some dangerous folks.
Retaliation for duty-related acts is always a possibility, but I've often pondered whether the risk of same is overestimated. Especially when you consider that LEOs and citizen CCWers are otherwise subject to all the same, and statistically more common, hazards. (That's not to dismiss the threat of retaliation, just some perspective.)
With few exceptions, when I look back on various times I was truly glad to have my preps, they were situations that anyone could have faced and had nothing to do with any potential LE status.
Six Feet Under
06-03-10, 21:58
Like John_Wayne777 said, you don't need it until you NEED it.
If I get into LE like I plan, I'm carrying a back-up gun. I'll probably carry one when I get my CWL anyways, but it most likely won't be anything more than a Ruger LCP or something I can just toss in a pocket holster and go.
The only things I always have in my pockets right now are my cell phone, key ring, wallet, folding knife, and a pair of nitrile gloves.
Unless I am wearing shorts I always carry the same thing I do on duty, my full size 1911, an lcp in my left pocket and a 442 on my ankle. I catch a lot of shit for it especially when we take someone to jail (we have to disarm before going in) but I feel good knowing if one fails I have two more and no matter what situation I am in I can reach at least one gun. In a pinch I could also arm a friend or family member and still have a backup.
JW hit the nail on the head, as I am discovering is usual, but here are my thoughts and experiences as well.
FWIW, I'm not a LEO, and carry in a purely civilian self-defense format. When my father-in-law asked me, in a tone of curiosity, why I carried two guns I simply replied "in case one doesn't work." I find that answer satisfies most folks who aren't anti-gun to begin with.
I was always of the opinion that J-frames were pretty much only good for screwing into someone's ear in a ground fight, but that this was something that could very well happen. Then I ran into a good deal on a used, pre-lock 642-1 and took it to a 10-8 BUG class. Ben Lennett really showed me the capability of the little J-frame, especially combined with CT lasergrips. Am I as good with it as I am with my Beretta or 1911? Heck no, but it will suffice in a pinch if the primary gun goes TU. Which brings me to my next point...
In the BUG class, we did a couple of drills that showed the time difference between clearing a malfunction and drawing the BUG. For me, the difference between clearing a nasty malfunction and engaging the target with the primary, versus simply dumping the primary and going for the BUG, was on average about 4 seconds. When you really need something to go bang, that's a lifetime.
Another point is off-hand accessibility. I generally carry my J-frame where I can draw it left-handed. This lets me access a weapon if my primary hand is occupied (dragging my wife or son out of harm's way, or fighting off a grab on my primary) or incapacitated. It also lets me quietly and discreetly pre-stage a gun if things start to look squirrelly. All I have to do is put my hands casually in my pockets, no big deal, no threatening gestures. If I need to, I can shoot through my pocket, or draw and engage with five rounds while drawing my primary with my strong hand.
While some have mentioned the ability to arm a secondary person, as far as I'm concerned, if they didn't bring their own gun, they're probably not competent to use mine. Exceptions exist, of course, but it's not something that I consider within the realm of reasonable possibility.
I don't find the addition of a BUG to be all that onerous for EDC. I already have two cell phones, a Leatherman, a folder, a primary, a spare magazine or two, a wallet, and my keys. The BUG just means that my wallet gets moved to a cargo pocket.
As the old adage goes, "I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it." When you need it, brother, you NEED it.
L/R ankle, L/R pocket, support side IWB? Not even a PTA3 or LCP?
Retaliation for duty-related acts is always a possibility, but I've often pondered whether the risk of same is overestimated. Especially when you consider that LEOs and citizen CCWers are otherwise subject to all the same, and statistically more common, hazards. (That's not to dismiss the threat of retaliation, just some perspective.)
With few exceptions, when I look back on various times I was truly glad to have my preps, they were situations that anyone could have faced and had nothing to do with any potential LE status.
good points... i guess somewhere in the back of my mind i consider going about my day with a 9mm service pistol tucked into my pants to be already overkill. this is probably foolish on my part.
I started carrying a BUG immediately after I got off of FTO status and started in patrol in a one man car.
23 years later I can't think of a time since then that I have had only one gun on me while I was at work.
I almost always have two hanguns on me while off-duty as well. Off duty I normally don't have a shotgun, carbine, radio, armor, etc.
When I started I was the first officer on my department to carry a BUG, and I caught a huge amount of crap for doing so (and this being back in the revolver days). I am imune from retarded versions of peer pressure so I ignored it and carried on.
(I should note that I was also given crap about my Sure Fire light before those were cool, carrying knives, etc. Whatever)
In my situation I have several reasons for carrying two guns, including all of the reasons already so well covered above.
I am often with my daughters (under 21) or other folks (like, lets say out of state no CCW friends who happen to be SpecOps guys) who are competent to extremely competent to have a gun but legally can not. In an emergency I could see several situations where I would hand off a spare to someone I am with.
I should also note that it is more common than folks think for one to take in-coming rounds in the gun or gun hand, best to have a plan B if this happens.
I'll end on the comment that I don't jump out of airplanes wearing only one parachute, and I don't go on road trips in a car with no spare tire, I'm just strange like that.
gtmtnbiker98
06-04-10, 06:33
Glad to see that the "Police" mentality about a BUG is not terribly unique to my department. Although by and large my department is receptive to guns, we do have one that is a liberal-tard.
The mindset that "it can't happen here or to me" is overwhelming and perhaps more training is in order. But given the economy, we are doing good to be provided ammunition to qualify with let alone actually train with and participate in classes. When I first started (1996), I would venture to guess that at least 40% qualified with a second firearm. In recent years, I would guess that the percentage has dropped to less than 10% and I was the only one to qualify with an "off duty/backup" firearm in my squad this year. I always opted to qualify with a second firearm not so much to actually carry it, but to shoot the free ammunition. I'm one who cannot turn down free shooting.
Many of the views expressed in this thread are clear and convincing and I intend to start carrying a BUG. My current position fortunately does not have me working the road on a full-time basis and when on the road, I'll be using a BUG once qualified with the sidearm.
John_Wayne777
06-04-10, 07:49
JW, why is it that you always have a way of making sense?
It happens entirely by accident, I assure you.
good points... i guess somewhere in the back of my mind i consider going about my day with a 9mm service pistol tucked into my pants to be already overkill. this is probably foolish on my part.
It is overkill. It's overkill on any day that you don't actually have to pull that 9mm service pistol and shoot someone in the face. Most days you could go armed with a pen-knife and it would be overkill. The snag is that we don't get a warning about when we're going to have one of those days where we're actually going to need to try and kill someone because they insist on the cessation of our life functions.
Now hopefully you'll never have to draw that 9mm service pistol in anger...and I would strongly suggest some of the excellent training out there that helps you detect the signs of an impending attack and how to extricate yourself from the situation without gunfire...but should the day come where you actually have to draw your weapon to preserve your life or the life of a loved one, I can assure you that in your mind it won't be enough.
Glad to see that the "Police" mentality about a BUG is not terribly unique to my department. Although by and large my department is receptive to guns, we do have one that is a liberal-tard. The mindset that "it can't happen here or to me" is overwhelming and perhaps more training is in order.
It's not at all unique. I've known officers who have been served a measure of excrement from their co-workers for attending training outside of that mandated by the department in firearms or defensive tactics. A acquaintance of mine was actually nicknamed "Tackleberry" by some of his co-workers who thought he was a loon for all those shooting courses he attended and all the time he spent on the range. Suffice it to say that once some of them were in a situation where bad people were trying to kill them and they were ineffective at stopping the threat, they were pretty damn glad to see ol' "Tackleberry" show up placing lethally effective fire on the bad guys. Nobody gives him static about training or carrying a backup anymore.
You're only "crazy" until it's actually happening, and then in that moment the people who thought you were crazy will, without the slightest sense of irony, look to you to save their ass. Understand that it's just human nature and don't let it screw your thinking up.
There is a huge difference between civilian CCW and LE CCW and I agree with some of the other posters who sit on the LE side and ride one man all the time on their depts. A BUG is a good idea when its just you. As for those you ride two man, such as myself; on a regular basis, carrying a bug is just another tool that could save your life. I personally dont carry one due to all of the other tactical nonsense I have (308, m4 etc. etc.) A BUG for me would be another thing I would have to be responsible for in a 10 hours shift. And if my partner carried one, thats 4 guns that we would be responsible for along with his tac gear in the trunk.
On the civilian side....... if a responsible CCW card carrier feels safer that way I say go at it. Who am I to tell a man to not have extra tools in case the shit goes bad. BBUUTTT, again that is more stuff to be reponsible for when you go to a crowded NBA, NFL, NHL game or your local Target or Wally World(Wal-mart).
Bottom line, I feel it is all what you feel comfortable carrying and willing to take respnsibility for! If people want to be kitted up all the time..... thats their business.
duty: sig 226, colt m4, remington 700, remington 870
off-duty: glock 26
Bulldog7972
06-04-10, 08:35
When I'm working as a Police Officer, which I've been doing for thirty years now, I carry a BUG. I do that because I"m actively out looking for bad guys and one can never know what I might encounter. When I'm off duty, I carry a small 9mm. That's it. No BUG, sometimes an extra mag. Why you ask. Because when I'm off duty, I am no longer looking for bad guys. I carry a weapon ONLY as a means of self preservation. I'm not going to take on a crew of bank robbers or try to capture a serial killer. The carjacker that want's my Jeep, that's another story. The guy that walks into a McDonalds with the intent on robbing them as I'm in line, maybe depending on circumstances. I am going to probably retire soon and was thinking about replacing all my pistols with one gun, probably a G19 which holds more rounds than what I carry now. But then I came to my senses and realized that because my retirement needs are far more different than my needs as a Police Officer, I decided not to. Why carry something as big as a G19 when the chances of me becoming involved in something that requires all those rounds is so remote that it's almost laughable. No thanks, I'll stick with what's worked for me so far. A 8+1 9mm and MAYBE an extra mag.
Oh, BTW, this setup has worked for me in the past. At work I've needed the BUG a couple of times. Off duty when I'm really just another CCW'r? Never. Of course YMMV.
Many of the views expressed in this thread are clear and convincing and I intend to start carrying a BUG. My current position fortunately does not have me working the road on a full-time basis and when on the road, I'll be using a BUG once qualified with the sidearm.
Outstanding. Let us know how we can help.
Re the road, utility of a BUG isn't confined to the road. You never know when you may need one in the back office or alternative assignment, too.
You're only "crazy" until it's actually happening, and then in that moment the people who thought you were crazy will, without the slightest sense of irony, look to you to save their ass. Understand that it's just human nature and don't let it screw your thinking up.
BTDT. Suddenly, that CVPI war wagon dragging it's rear bumper on the ground isn't a target of a mockery, it's relief on wheels.
I'm former military, so I was raised with the mantra "two is one, one is none..."
At work (plain clothes LE), I carry a G23 backed up with a G27.
Off duty, I carry the same on the rare occasions I'm in long pants (living in FL, that's about 90 days a year). When I'm in shorts, it's the G23 with a PM9 in my weakside front pocket. When I'm PTing or riding bikes with the kids, it's just the G23 in a fanny pack.
Regards,
Kevin
John Wayne777 and others have posted lots of great reasons to carry a BUG off duty or CCW. I didn't carry a BUG off duty for years until I got a 342PD scandium J-frame which weighs practically nothing. Now I can carry it either pocket or ankle with a reload and forget it's there. I also carry a backup lefty benchmade griptillian next to my BUG along with a reload for next to no weight.
To me it's all about having various options for not only malfunctions, but for various positions you may end up in during a fight, getting hurt/disabled, and whatever else may happen.
On duty I carry 3 pistols and various knives in strategic positions to deal with as wide a range of possible issues as I can. With some careful gear selection I can do this without looking like a walking armory, and in plainclothes!
Dennis.
There is a huge difference between civilian CCW and LE CCW and I agree with some of the other posters who sit on the LE side and ride one man all the time on their depts. A BUG is a good idea when its just you. As for those you ride two man, such as myself; on a regular basis, carrying a bug is just another tool that could save your life. I personally dont carry one due to all of the other tactical nonsense I have (308, m4 etc. etc.) A BUG for me would be another thing I would have to be responsible for in a 10 hours shift. And if my partner carried one, thats 4 guns that we would be responsible for along with his tac gear in the trunk.
On the civilian side....... if a responsible CCW card carrier feels safer that way I say go at it. Who am I to tell a man to not have extra tools in case the shit goes bad. BBUUTTT, again that is more stuff to be reponsible for when you go to a crowded NBA, NFL, NHL game or your local Target or Wally World(Wal-mart).
Bottom line, I feel it is all what you feel comfortable carrying and willing to take respnsibility for! If people want to be kitted up all the time..... thats their business.
duty: sig 226, colt m4, remington 700, remington 870
off-duty: glock 26
First off, I wish I had a M4 and a 700 in my trunk!
However, I can't agree with your logic regarding on-duty BUGs. While you may work with a partner, it's not like you can always be side by side with each other. I usually work with at least 1 but usually 2 people and someone always has to peel off to cover the back or side. You can effectively be alone for seconds or much much longer if multiple suspects present themselves. Also the advantage of having your off side hand on a backup in your pocket while just talking to someone is HUGE.
While I know it's a PIA being responsible for more and more gear it's not like a BUG is going to break the responsibility bank after all that you have already.
Your call, of course. Just my own humble opinion.
Dennis.
On duty I carry 3 pistols and various knives in strategic positions to deal with as wide a range of possible issues as I can. With some careful gear selection I can do this without looking like a walking armory, and in plainclothes! Dennis.
Excellent example.
D. Christopher
06-05-10, 00:53
If I were a LEO, I would always carry a BUG. Since I'm not, I find that I rarely carry one. These days my primary is a G19 and BUG is a G26, and I always wear the G19 IWB. Occasionally I need to wear the G26 IWB or ankle for deep concealment, but I've only felt the need to carry both just a few times. I'm a big believer in "2 is 1", but for me personally, stealth is more important than numbers. Not recommending it, but it beats going unarmed.
Stay safe.
Now hopefully you'll never have to draw that 9mm service pistol in anger...and I would strongly suggest some of the excellent training out there that helps you detect the signs of an impending attack and how to extricate yourself from the situation without gunfire...but should the day come where you actually have to draw your weapon to preserve your life or the life of a loved one, I can assure you that in your mind it won't be enough.
well put...
As a card carrying civilian with no gub'ment endorsements or certs, I carry a BUG.
I carry a Glock 19 IWB, and the majority of the time an LCP support side rear pocket next to a reload.
Excellent discussion by very knowledgeable people, classic m4carbine.
The exchange regarding overkill struck me as very interesting. John wrote something very important by acknowledging that yes and as a matter of fact it is overkill. This made me realize the obvious, and that is: most of the time when you have a job to do, you want your technology or strategy to have the potential for overkill. You want to be able to dictate just how much servicing a project, or a target needs. Because the trouble is, in difficult and dynamic situations, we often times cannot asses what will produce underkill, kill, or overkill. Therefore it is better to reasonably overprepare, which in a play on semantics can also be considered merely preparing well, than to under prepare. Carrying a BUG is merely preparing well, in my opinion.
I think the case for why one would want to prepare well by carying a BUG has been made in an un-refutable fashion already by the excellent posters in the thread. The only mitigation to this, like others have already written, perhaps concerns the different mission that a civilian has in perhaps a lower threat environment (like others have already written: E&E, less need for active interdiction, etc).
So then the issue isn't whether or not it is a good idea to carry a BUG, I think that the answer is generally "yes". But rather, whether we want to admit it or not to ourselves, the issue in reality is, is it convenient for me to carry that BUG?
The people that accuse "overkill" are people that probably don't want to inconvenience themselves with carrying a BUG, for a variety of reasons, such as it is a pain in the ass to carry, to sentiments of denial (it won't happen to me, I won't need it), etc.
So considering a Convenience/Preparedness spectrum, for me, as a civilian it hasn't been convenient to carry a BUG, and the threat levels that I've been exposed to haven't compelled me to carry a BUG (for me it would be my 638). Of course with that last statement I'm on thinner ground as the concept of a "safe environment" is ultimately fallacious.
But, I now realize that a G26, worn on the inside of my weak ankle may be a good way to go, and perhaps refute my "it isn't convenient/it is a pain in my ass" argument. A G26 carried that way would be available to both my strong and my weak hand; it may even be available more readily in certain cituation. It would complement my G19 when I carry that as my primary CCW, or I can even perhaps carry a G26 that way as a primary when my clothing limitations keeps me from carrying my G19
(in such instances I resort to my 638 in my kangaroo holster, not perfect, but practicable and it conceals very well, but it is somewhat slow to deploy, prob. slower than an ankle holster but I'm not sure).
Any current practitioners of ankle carry for a BUG?
gtmtnbiker98
06-05-10, 11:45
In my younger years, when I carried a BUG on duty, I carried a G26 in an ankle holster. It worked out well.
Any current practitioners of ankle carry for a BUG?
All day every day. Ankles are a great place to put a second, third, or fourth gun.
You're only "crazy" until it's actually happening, and then in that moment the people who thought you were crazy will, without the slightest sense of irony, look to you to save their ass.
I've been that guy, even had the Tackleberry nick-name, and I can state for a fact that this is a true statement. "**** I am glad you showed up" is rather satisfying to hear.
As to being "responsible" for too many guns, this sounds like fuzzy headed thinking to me. I used to drive the most heavily armed one man Crown Vic in Kansas, including a 37mm gas gun, a Remington 700 .308, my M4, Mossberg 14" 12 gauge.....
Anyway, my BUG is on my body and doesn't leave me, so what's to be worried about?
I've carried an ankle gun for 23+ years now, highly recommended as a BUG location.
For folks who think they can't carry a BUG I call bullshit. Even if you can't carry something like a Glock 26 you can find a BUG. I have a few troops who are IBOs and still carry a BUG, even if it's a Kel Tec .32/.380 or LCR you are ahead of the game.
I know of two cases where having a .25 auto saved a copper's bacon. "Rule 1" always applies, and if your primary weapon is down then a BUG, any BUG, gets you back in the fight.
As to will it happen here or not/to me or not?... I've attended active shooters twice in my career, a statistically low likelihood for me to have been to one such incident, and yet there I was, twice.
As for being off-duty/retired; Mumbai, just sayin.
not going to take on a crew of bank robbers or
Respectfully, this isn't your choice, this choice belongs to the bad guys.
keysersoze
06-06-10, 05:33
I'm a civvie but I do carry a BUG depending on the place I'm going to. There are some pretty unsavory areas that I have to go to from time to time, and I go there with my primary (A Glock 34 with 2 spare mags) and a BUG (either a Kahr MK9 with a spare mag or a S&W 340PD with 38+P's and a speedloader). My current primary is a Glock 21 with 2 spare mags, and a Glock 26 in an ankle holster.
It CAN be a hassle dressing to carry so much gear comfortably, and I have received a lot of stares from people who have seen me unload my gear...but my take is, they may make comments about me being paranoid etc, but I'd rather have my gear with me and never use it, rather than to get into a bad situation with nothing on me.
It's not unheard of people to use rifle's and SMG's in crimes here as well, so I might as well bring the most potent setup I can legally.
I find that if nothing else, the backup on the support side counter balances the primary on the strong side.
Left side: 15rnd reload on the belt ahead of the back pocket, LCP in the back pocket.
Right side: Glock 19 in Supertuck about 3:30 - 4:00
Has worked out good so far.
I'm a civvie but I do carry a BUG depending on the place I'm going to. There are some pretty unsavory areas that I have to go to from time to time,
I understand the thinking behind this, but it's a better practice to pick setup and stick with it. You never know when you might suddenly find yourself needing to go somewhere you didn't intend, or when those from that unsavory place come into your AO.
keysersoze
06-06-10, 21:17
I understand the thinking behind this, but it's a better practice to pick setup and stick with it. You never know when you might suddenly find yourself needing to go somewhere you didn't intend, or when those from that unsavory place come into your AO.
That's very sound advice that I'll definitely keep in mind.
I used to keep a backup pistol and ankle holster in my car (either in the glove compartment or under the seat) but with a sudden surge in car break-ins here I've stopped doing so. Apparently these crooks are getting smarter, and are buying those cheap China-made S&W rescue tools with the springloaded glassbreakers for a quick smash and grab of whatever's inside the car...
You're right though, and I'll start doing that (picking a setup and sticking to it) for familiarity, comfort, and muscle memory. I need to do more work especially with my ankle holster draw, my Galco rig has a thumb break that kinda slows me down (I'm more used to my Alessi which just worked with a very good fit, no strap).
desertdisciple
09-04-10, 22:58
For CCW as John Q I see the hierarchy as follows:
A backup is better than nothing/knives/fists..
A primary pistol is better..
A primary pistol with reload is a little better..
A primary pistol with a backup is getting better..
A primary pistol with a reload and backup is even better..
A primary pistol, reload and a backup with reload is best.
I like your perspective!
As "John Q.", When I asked a local LEO, if my 340PD in the ankle glove was a little much...
He said, "...never! Your BUG needs a backup!"
...Guess ANY could be considered too much, until needed.
Thanks for the insight.
...
PracticalDynamics
09-05-10, 08:07
In all the time I have spent as an anonymous bystander on various internet sights, JW777consistently has the ability to distill truth into its' most cogent points.
When I was in LE, I carried two BUGs, a Colt Detective Spcl on the ankle and Tomcat .32 on my vest. I still carry a primary and a BUG today.
As JW777 put it, you don't know you need it until you need it.
As a matter of practice day-to-day, I don't carry a BUG. However, if I'm going on a road-trip, I generally have a BUG on an ankle holster...a Kahr MK9
Why?...Easier to get to than the primary (SIG P229) on my hip (at 3:00/3:30), behind a seatbelt.
It's also good to pass to the wife if need be....point and shoot.
I carry a BUG on duty, and usually off duty, SW Model 38.
I carry weak side ankle on my BUG, with a speed strip in the strong pocket. My reasoning for weakside was, as has been addressed, for access during a gun grab.
I was injured on duty a while back and got stuck with the dick squad for a bit, even doing desk work I was still on duty, and I would leave the PD for lunch. I always had my duty and BUG, and yeah, I got some comments about it. But hey, I was interviewing people, taking statements, whose to say one of them doesn't snap and go for my gun?
On that note, practice practice practice. I carry, draw and shoot the BUG weak hand. At my last qual the instructors said maybe I should shoot my primary gun with my weak hand, too.
Off duty I'm not so worried about a gun grab, obviously, but a weapon failure, etc. Because I train weakside, I carry off duty the same way, and can transition the gun to strong side if necessary.:meeting:
ghettomedic
09-08-10, 12:37
As John Q. CCWer, I didn't carry a BUG for the first 2-3 years I carried. I would occasionally carry one, perhaps 5% of the time, but it was certainly not part of my daily routine.
One day about a year ago, I took advantage of nice weather in NC and the fact that the lasergrips for my J-frame arrived to hit the range. I planned on doing maybe 100 rounds of realistic training with my summer primary, a Kahr PM45. I was carrying the Kahr IWB and had my 442 in a DeSantis Renegade ankle holster.
First drill was going to be simulating a carjacking where I could not drive off. I was going to fire two rounds from inside my truck at a target 3 yards off the driver's side door; exit on the passenger's side and fire two more rounds at a target off my front bumper; tac reload, search and assess.
This was all fine and good until my first shot, when the front leg of the polymer magazine follower on my PM45 mag broke off, causing the gun to double feed and the slide to lock back. I retrieved my 442 from my ankle after exiting the vehicle and finished the drill, stopping afterwards to pick up my now-inoperable PM45 from the driver's side floorboard.
I wanted this training day to simulate real-world scenarios and boy did it ever. If this had been real life, my BUG WOULD have meant the difference between life and death. I made the decision that night that I would NEVER be caught without a BUG again, luckily my CTC-equipped 442 makes a perfect pocket or ankle BUG. We talk all the time about mag malfunctions, immediate action, remedial action, but when your gun is momentarily rendered inoperable the best solution is ANOTHER GUN, preferably also in a service caliber.
Your CCW is a problem-solving tool. Carrying a BUG gives you more options to solve whatever problems present themselves.
I've always liked Clint Smith's advice. "People ask me, 'How many guns should I carry?' I tell them, 'Keep adding guns until your ability to perform daily tasks is impaired, then subtract one. That's how many guns you should have.'"
I have always carried a BUG while on duty (18 years). It used to always be a J-frame. Now my BUG is a Glock 26. I wanted more firepower. I'm a 3rd generation officer and I was a station rat. Most of the LEO's I remember carried an, "Onion Field", option.
As for off duty, I do not, repeat, do not leave the house w/o one of the above mentioned guns. Without a gun you are, in my opinion, defenseless. I even cut the grass with a gun on me. Paranoid? Nope. Prepared.
If I could know when the violent confrontation would happen then I'd plan accordingly and bring my rifle, and all my friends with rifles. But I can't so I am not going to be caught with my johnson in my hand w/o a way to protect me and mine.
Crap, I'm allowed to carry a gun just about anywhere. For that reason alone I ask, "Why wouldn't I want to?"
Carry, carry, carry... If after 30 years you look back and say, "
Boy I never had to use this BUG." Then thank the Lord with your next breath.
Fog
I don't usually carry a BUG on my person. Not an LEO, off-duty or real-life.
It all depends on the perceived tactical situation and the circumstances of the day. Normally, I have either a Jframe (340PD) or at times a PPK. Around here, there is little normal risk - worst case on the outside is someone trying a robbery in a store parking lot. Low probability though still a risk. So, the one does it, especially as I can always get off that first shot and as an individual would be using it as a belly gun.
When I go to a higher risk area - I avoid them as my first line of defense but sometimes have to go through them to get where I'm going, I toss a 627 8 shot on the car shelf under a towel and have the j frame in my pocket.
If we had riots somewhere nearby then I likely would carry that 627 IWB, 340 in pocket and Derringer in my underwear if I could not avoid going out of the house.
Point is, it all depends. What's going on that day? Is my wife with me? Can I be cornered? Or, can I show them how fast an old guy can run?
Police are another matter. The saying goes: "How can you tell the difference between a police officer and the perp?" When there's gunfire, the perp is the one running away and the police officer is the one running toward. So, an LEO always needs a BUG.
HAVOC 5150
09-09-10, 13:34
I know guys from other agencies that usually carry BUG's in there trauma plate pocket on there vest. Easily accessable with both hands if you get hit. I know by experience during simunitions training that I was shot in the hands and arms alot. So having to reach from your support side to your strong side to retrieve a BUG can cost you valuable time when seconds count.
I carry one or two reloads for my sidearm. I very rarely carry a BUG, but I consider that a mild compromise on my part, and think it's a good idea to carry a BUG, if you're up to it. I do keep an extra sidearm and reloads VERY well hidden in my vehicle, though. I guess that's a sort of BUG. I somewhat mitigate my BUG-less compromise, by exercising extreme diligence in ensuring my sidearms and reloads are reliable, well maintained, and very ready.
I don't carry a BUG off duty.....just a primary and a reload. Yes, something can happen to your primary renduring it unusable. An arguement can also be made for carrying three guns on your person. It's a personal choice. My setup is based around a likely scenario that I might encounter and most of my day to day off duty time outside the house a P239 9mm should be adequate. Other times I'll carry my duty P229 .40 and a reload if it is more of a plain clothes or a more hazardous area.
Occasionally I'll carry a BUG on duty. However, I like to think of my sidearm as the BUG, and my rifle as the primary. So I try to keep the rifle readily accessible at all times.
parishioner
09-14-10, 03:51
JW's commentary on this topic is gold. Enlightening, sensible and comprehensible.
Bolt_Overide
09-14-10, 05:22
Im probably going to come off as more abrasive than I intended with this, I tend to be a direct person, and I wont apologise for it, but here goes.
I have a spare tire in my truck and my car, as well as a tool kit, a first aid kit, and a spare pre-paid cell phone. I never plan to use any of these, but having them doesnt make me paranoid.
Carrying a BUG is nothing more than prudent preperation, smart preparedness. Anyone who says its borderline paranoia is an idiot, and probably a closet (or open) liberal.
Im probably going to come off as more abrasive than I intended with this, I tend to be a direct person, and I wont apologise for it, but here goes.
I have a spare tire in my truck and my car, as well as a tool kit, a first aid kit, and a spare pre-paid cell phone. I never plan to use any of these, but having them doesnt make me paranoid.
Carrying a BUG is nothing more than prudent preperation, smart preparedness. Anyone who says its borderline paranoia is an idiot, and probably a closet (or open) liberal.
I always liked the spare tire simile. Like a BUG, I never want to use it, but if I have to, I'm sure glad it's there. If I ever get into a situation where I need to use my carry gun, I don't want my life to end because of a single malfunction if I can help it--I want options if my gun goes click instead of bang beyond tapping and racking. People who say carrying a BUG means you're paranoid probably don't think it's worthwhile to train with your carry gun either--I mean, if you're never going to use it, what's the point in learning how?
I'm a civilian. In the summer I typically carry a G26 in my strong side pocket, a G17 magazine on my belt, and an LCP on my ankle. In the winter, because of the extra clothing it's much easier for me to carry and conceal better equipment comfortably so I do; I carry a G19 with a flashlight IWB and the G26 in my weak side pocket, with 2 G17 magazines on my belt. I always carry a knife, but if I get to the point that I pull it out something has gone terribly wrong--occasionally I think about adding the LCP to my winter carry setup.
I chose ankle carry because it's easy to conceal there, is accessible to either hand, and is an excellent mode of carry when I'm in the car (which is more common for me in the summer). In the winter, I move my BUG to my pocket because I end up walking through snow a lot and would rather my G26 didn't rust apart. I decided on weak side so that if my right hand or arm got taken out of a fight, I'd still be able to draw something.
desertdisciple
09-14-10, 10:49
JW's commentary on this topic is gold. Enlightening, sensible and comprehensible.
JW...John Wayne...
yes, he had a great perspective:
"Life's tough. It's tougher if you're stupid." - JOHN WAYNE:cool:
*I know you meant JW777...
But The Duke's perspective has a broad application...
Seems like yesterday, that common sense, really was that.
(& that's just what my limited 42 Yrs have seen)
woodandsteel
09-14-10, 11:45
Duty Primary G23 BUG G23
Off Duty Primary G23 BUG G27
Summer/light carry Star single stack 9mm as BUG
I have always been a firm believer in what my father taught me. Your BUG should typically mirror your Primary when possible. All that aside a nice J frame makes for a perfect BUG in your trousers.
This may be a little off topic, but how do you carry your back up Glock 23 on duty? Is it on your vest? A few people in my dept. carry their Glock 27s this way. I would guess a 23 wouldn't be that much more trouble to carry.
Currently I carry a Ruger LCP in my weak side pocket as a BUG. That will soon change to a J Frame (LCP has some issues with pocket carry). I'm leaning towards a no-lock 442.
Sorry guys but I just don't see the need for a bug off duty or for john q. Honestly I feel that if you really think you need a bug in those situations, you are visiting the wrong places... I know off duty I try to stay clear of places (I do carry 100%) I'll run into the same people I do at work. Sure there's a chance something may happen but, when I'm off work, I don't go places where I think I'll have to pull my gun, unlike when I go to work...
I can tell ya this for sure though, if I'm responding to an active shooter and john q. is there, with the best intentions of helping his fellow citizens, but I see some guy strolling the mall with a gun in each hand, he better be damn fast dropping them both when I come around the corner...
Furthermore, a lot of guys I run into that have ccw's are not responsible enough with one gun, God I hate to think what would happen if they all had two. If it's just one falls out of an ankle hostler and found by who knows who, or I can see it now, "here, i got a spare gun, hold this if something goes down, that guy looks suspicious"
I'm all for protecting yourself and to each his own, but I'd have a issue if I pulled over john q. and he's packing two.
Now where's some wood to knock on, I'm off today and gotta go out, oh I'm going to be mad if my primary fails me...
titsonritz
09-14-10, 13:05
It always blows me away when I hear or read statements that suggest a geographical location has anything to a life threatening violent encounter. It is this mindset that leads to quotes like, “I just can’t believe something like this could happen in my neighborhood” or “How could this happen here? This is such a respectable part of town”. For those who do not already comprehend, shit can happen anywhere at any time.
Pulling a pistol in self-defense is serious business and by nature demands follow through. If your primary becomes disabled or lost a BUG just might save your life. It can also be given to an unarmed partner to help increase the odds to your favor. IMO a second “primary” is the ultimate BUG. A pair of Glock 19s work for me.
Magic_Salad0892
09-14-10, 13:11
Stupid reason:
I'm an air-softer who has scars from being shot in the hands and firing arm so much.
Also, I can't legally carry my KAC SR-15 E3 around with me everywhere or I would.
Sorry guys but I just don't see the need for a bug off duty or for john q. Honestly I feel that if you really think you need a bug in those situations, you are visiting the wrong places... I know off duty I try to stay clear of places (I do carry 100%) I'll run into the same people I do at work. Sure there's a chance something may happen but, when I'm off work, I don't go places where I think I'll have to pull my gun, unlike when I go to work...
I can tell ya this for sure though, if I'm responding to an active shooter and john q. is there, with the best intentions of helping his fellow citizens, but I see some guy strolling the mall with a gun in each hand, he better be damn fast dropping them both when I come around the corner...
Furthermore, a lot of guys I run into that have ccw's are not responsible enough with one gun, God I hate to think what would happen if they all had two. If it's just one falls out of an ankle hostler and found by who knows who, or I can see it now, "here, i got a spare gun, hold this if something goes down, that guy looks suspicious"
I'm all for protecting yourself and to each his own, but I'd have a issue if I pulled over john q. and he's packing two.
Now where's some wood to knock on, I'm off today and gotta go out, oh I'm going to be mad if my primary fails me...
Please provide me with a list of places where I will never need a gun. You can't do that, because there is no such thing as a "safe" place.
You are providing anti-gun arguments, not anti-BUG arguments--bad ones at that. They're scary to see on a forum centered around firearms and the shooting discipline.
It always blows me away when I hear or read statements that suggest a geographical location has anything to a life threatening violent encounter. It is this mindset that leads to quotes like, “I just can’t believe something like this could happen in my neighborhood” or “How could this happen here? This is such a respectable part of town”. For those who do not already comprehend, shit can happen anywhere at any time.
Pulling a pistol in self-defense is serious business and by nature demands follow through. If your primary becomes disabled or lost a BUG just might save your life. It can also be given to an unarmed partner to help increase the odds to your favor. IMO a second “primary” is the ultimate BUG. A pair of Glock 19s work for me.
I wholeheartedly agree with your post.
There have definitely been times (like going to Pittsburgh to help my sister move, again...) where I have "carried" for more than just myself. I know exactly what my brother means when he says "Bring enough for me too?" It's not that we're expecting to get into some crazy shootout over my sister's sofa and lamps, but it's good to know what the options are if things start happening.
SmokeJumper
09-14-10, 14:50
First, great informative thread. Second, in summer with shorts and T-shirt, are you guys carrying a BUG in the pocket, I some mentioned pocket carry? And third, those that carry a BUG have you thought about or do you carry a reload for the BUG? My BUG is a S&W 442 at work with a speed strip in the pocket with gun in an ankle holster that I practice drawing with either hand. Off work, the 442 or an LCP w/ CTC, sometimes a PM9 or G27, all with an extra mag on my person in carry mode. I know the LCP is a .380, but man its so easy and light to carry in the summer in shorts and it does go bang. But too many options causes a training/carry issue, better to be consistent with carry/training.
Sorry guys but I just don't see the need for a bug off duty or for john q. Honestly I feel that if you really think you need a bug in those situations, you are visiting the wrong places... I know off duty I try to stay clear of places (I do carry 100%) I'll run into the same people I do at work. Sure there's a chance something may happen but, when I'm off work, I don't go places where I think I'll have to pull my gun, unlike when I go to work...
I can tell ya this for sure though, if I'm responding to an active shooter and john q. is there, with the best intentions of helping his fellow citizens, but I see some guy strolling the mall with a gun in each hand, he better be damn fast dropping them both when I come around the corner...
Furthermore, a lot of guys I run into that have ccw's are not responsible enough with one gun, God I hate to think what would happen if they all had two. If it's just one falls out of an ankle hostler and found by who knows who, or I can see it now, "here, i got a spare gun, hold this if something goes down, that guy looks suspicious"
I'm all for protecting yourself and to each his own, but I'd have a issue if I pulled over john q. and he's packing two.
Now where's some wood to knock on, I'm off today and gotta go out, oh I'm going to be mad if my primary fails me...
:confused:
I am just another John Q here but I carry a G26 as a BUG everyday (for the same reasons already stated in this thread) with either a G19 (summer) or a G34 (winter) as a primary.
I can't run or kick with an ankle holster that has a J frame, so ankle holsters are not for me.
But it is hard enough for me to keep my pants up while carrying a 1911, never mind 2.
So I like this pocket backup:
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/images/firearms/thumb_sm/163072_01_sm.jpg
Originally Posted by Yoseff
I'm all for protecting yourself and to each his own, but I'd have a issue if I pulled over john q. and he's packing two.
Would you charge him?
In UT we can have a loaded firearm in the car even without a concealed carry permit. So if a guy has a loaded rifle in the car, and a loaded pistol on his hip, what would you do?
By the way, the 2nd Amendment uses plural, not singular.
It always blows me away when I hear or read statements that suggest a geographical location has anything to a life threatening violent encounter. It is this mindset that leads to quotes like, “I just can’t believe something like this could happen in my neighborhood” or “How could this happen here? This is such a respectable part of town”. For those who do not already comprehend, shit can happen anywhere at any time.
If you don't think geographical location plays a part in the chance of a violent encounter you are very, very mistaken. I'll even go so far as to say that the "location" is the biggest overall factor on a violent encounter's chance. Yes, there is that chance that anything can happen anywhere but location has a huge factor on the "chance" of that something happening. Anyone who wants to argue that point, we'll go for a stroll through one of the housing projects I work and see what happens compared to going out to eat at Morton's and see at which "location" your hand was reaching for your gun and which it was reaching for a drink. I never said there were 100% safe places (so I can't give you a list) but I did say I carry 100% of the time. I would think most people would be able to understand that I don't think the world is a safe place, which is why I carry, which is why I'm the popo, and is why I read this forum.
You are providing anti-gun arguments, not anti-BUG arguments--bad ones at that. They're scary to see on a forum centered around firearms and the shooting discipline.
How am I providing or siding with the anti-gun nuts when I state that I carry a gun 100% of the time. I'm a LEO, I'd carry my AR all the time if I could hide it, but I can't, and if you can't conceal your weapon, you shouldn't be carrying it if you don't have a big ol badge showing...
The OP was looking for thoughts on carrying a bug when off duty or by john q. I thought we were discussing the reasons we believed we should or shouldn't. I have never heard of a situation where john q., who had his ccw, got shot down and a bug would have saved him, or a situation where john q. primary when down and his bug saved him. There probably is a case somewhere but I can guarntee not many (Again we're not talking about people in the line of duty here).
I don't know any officer personally that carries a bug when off duty but I will be sure to ask around and see what they think on this subject later this week.
"MY OPINION" is that 99.9% of US Citizens do not need to carry a 2nd gun on their person most of the time. "I feel" that carrying one while I'm off duty will serve me with any encounter I may have. If "you feel" that carrying a second is needed then go right ahead, it's your right.
Cincinnatus
09-14-10, 15:18
There is an article on this in the June 2010 issue of SWAT:
"THE RULE OF TWO
Backup, Backup, Backup" by Jeff Hall
In UT we can have a loaded firearm in the car even without a concealed carry permit. So if a guy has a loaded rifle in the car, and a loaded pistol on his hip, what would you do?
In NC if you have a loaded pistol, thats concealed within reach, you must have a ccw permit. Rifle, something in the trunk, etc, no big deal. If you have a ccw permit, if you get pulled over, you must inform the officer right off the bad that you have a permit, a gun (or guns) and where they are...
If I pulled a guy and he had two concealed on his person, I'm not saying I'd do anything other than ask why he was carrying two...
Bolt_Overide
09-14-10, 15:52
Sorry guys but I just don't see the need for a bug off duty or for john q. Honestly I feel that if you really think you need a bug in those situations, you are visiting the wrong places... I know off duty I try to stay clear of places (I do carry 100%) I'll run into the same people I do at work. Sure there's a chance something may happen but, when I'm off work, I don't go places where I think I'll have to pull my gun, unlike when I go to work...
I can tell ya this for sure though, if I'm responding to an active shooter and john q. is there, with the best intentions of helping his fellow citizens, but I see some guy strolling the mall with a gun in each hand, he better be damn fast dropping them both when I come around the corner...
Furthermore, a lot of guys I run into that have ccw's are not responsible enough with one gun, God I hate to think what would happen if they all had two. If it's just one falls out of an ankle hostler and found by who knows who, or I can see it now, "here, i got a spare gun, hold this if something goes down, that guy looks suspicious"
I'm all for protecting yourself and to each his own, but I'd have a issue if I pulled over john q. and he's packing two.
Now where's some wood to knock on, I'm off today and gotta go out, oh I'm going to be mad if my primary fails me...
This is the kind of attitude I just cant wrap my head around. Why is it you assume because I carry two weapons Im going to act like a moron who's seen too many John Woo movies and try to go at it two fisted?
The discussion isnt about trying to dual weild firearms, its a simple question of how prepared you are.
As far as you having issue with john q packing two weapons if you pull him over, can you point me to the federal, state, county, or local code that covers your discretion on taking issue with BUG's on john q?
Bolt_Overide
09-14-10, 15:59
How am I providing or siding with the anti-gun nuts when I state that I carry a gun 100% of the time. I'm a LEO, I'd carry my AR all the time if I could hide it, but I can't, and if you can't conceal your weapon, you shouldn't be carrying it if you don't have a big ol badge showing...
I want to make sure you understand that I am not a hater of law enforcement, nor do I have anything against you personally. That said, I sincerely have to ask if you do not see the irony in the above quote.
gtmtnbiker98
09-14-10, 16:10
I'm all for protecting yourself and to each his own, but I'd have a issue if I pulled over john q. and he's packing two.
Now where's some wood to knock on, I'm off today and gotta go out, oh I'm going to be mad if my primary fails me...
What the Hell issue would you have and under what statute gives you that issue? You sound like a liberal with a badge, who quickly passes judgement. BTW, I am an LEO as well and more power to "John Q." It is not us against them so jump off the high horse.
What the Hell issue would you have and under what statute gives you that issue? You sound like a liberal with a badge, who quickly passes judgement. BTW, I am an LEO as well and more power to "John Q." It is not us against them so jump off the high horse.
Could not have said it any better...
if you can't conceal your weapon, you shouldn't be carrying it if you don't have a big ol badge showing...
If "you feel" that carrying a second is needed then go right ahead, it's your right.
again :confused:
These 2 statements conflict with each other. I personally do not Open Carry but it is very much a Right. It is completely legal in most states, unlike carrying concealed where you have to get permission (in the form of a ccw/cfp) from the state.
jklaughrey
09-14-10, 16:37
The extra 23 is vest carry. I had used the star in a SOB, but that hurts after awhile you know. I have considered a 27 maybe offhand ankle but never had much luck with ankle carry, but been carrying the 23 in vest for a few years now. It is almost like putting my boots on.
On a side note, have p/u a LCP, very nice for pocket carry. Maybe it is time for a change?
William B.
09-14-10, 17:11
How am I providing or siding with the anti-gun nuts when I state that I carry a gun 100% of the time. I'm a LEO, I'd carry my AR all the time if I could hide it, but I can't, and if you can't conceal your weapon, you shouldn't be carrying it if you don't have a big ol badge showing...
Oh, wow. That's outstanding. Last time I checked open carry was legal in NC.
You also say that if we go somewhere that we would need a BUG we're wrong, like being a crime victim would somehow be our fault or something. Why shouldn't I be able to walk safely down any public street in this country (not that I would) as long as I'm not doing anything wrong? What if I live in a bad neighborhood? What if I'm in an unfamiliar area and make a wrong turn? It bothers me that you feel this way holding the position that you do. gtmtnbiker98 is right. Get off the high horse.
DocHolliday01
09-14-10, 17:31
LEO Here. Off Duty Summertime i carry a fullsize 1911 w x300 in a RCS Phantom with 2 10 rd mags also in RCS. I usually have another 10rd and 8rd mag in my pockets. Ive been looking at getting a J-frame to throw in a front pocket for backup.
Winter I will have the 1911 and 3 10rd mags and my 27 on my ankle with a spare for it. Im trying to think of a way to carry my 19 as a backup but so far am not finding too many options.
As far as Joe Citizen carrying as long as they aren't scroatbags the more the better.
I used to carry Three guns on duty, a Glock 23, 642 and NAA .22. I carried the NAA off duty for years as a back up to the 642 or G23.
I think if you can comfortably swing it then carry two guns. I stopped doing it off duty years ago. It was just more than I was willing to commit to. I still do it on duty religiously.
I also retired my 340PD .357 for a G27 as my back up and off duty gun. The little magnum comes out a few times a year at most. I could swing carrying two light weight 5 shot S&W revolvers they probably weigh less than my G27 loaded. I made the decision I wanted my duty and back up to eat the same magazines/ammo. This was a tactical, practical, logistical and economic decision. I have a paddle mag pouch in my trucks center console with a 15 round mag that will feed either of my guns. There is also a five shot speed loader in a belt clip in there left over from the days I carried the 340PD.
I switched from the little S&W because I wanted more rounds in the gun and quicker reloads. For me it was a major change the little S&W was soooo light and disappeared in my pocket. When I carried a J-Frame I had two speed strips in my off side pocket and a speed strip in a Kramer belt worn pouch for 20 rounds. The G27 gives me 21 rounds but a reload is much quicker and I have another 15 rounds in my vehicle.
jklaughrey
09-14-10, 18:11
I agree with Colt and others on this thread. You sir are incorrect in passing judgment based upon your own biased opinion. We as officers uphold the laws and statutes we have sworn to protect. We are not in the position to pass judgment and abuse the public trust. I feel you are in the wrong profession, your low self esteem and need to impose upon others because you carry a badge is clearly apparent. I don't know your situation. Maybe you were bullied in school, or you weren't hugged enough, or maybe your wife/gf doesn't cup your balls. I don't know but you are a PIG and give honest officers a bad name. Thank you Jesus you don't work in my department.
titsonritz
09-14-10, 19:08
If I pulled a guy and he had two concealed on his person, I'm not saying I'd do anything other than ask why he was carrying two...
And I’d tell you it was none of your damn business.
You are a power tripper. You have little big man syndrome. I strongly suggest you get out of law enforcement or check your shitty attitude. This, along with several of your other statements, is precisely why, ”us vs. them” exists in the first place. All you are doing is creating a wider wedge between LEO and the citizens that you are sworn to protect and serve. It’s a damn shame.
I agree with Colt and others on this thread. You sir are incorrect in passing judgment based upon your own biased opinion. We as officers uphold the laws and statutes we have sworn to protect. We are not in the position to pass judgment and abuse the public trust. I feel you are in the wrong profession, your low self esteem and need to impose upon others because you carry a badge is clearly apparent. I don't know your situation. Maybe you were bullied in school, or you weren't hugged enough, or maybe your wife/gf doesn't cup your balls. I don't know but you are a PIG and give honest officers a bad name. Thank you Jesus you don't work in my department.
jklaughrey well said sir
I carried my BUG with a vest worn holster for years it was a cross draw holster attached to my side straps. I also tried a sewn on pouch on the front of my vest it had a ballistic panel that covered the gun and pouch.
Now it is a G27 In my off hand pocket. It used to be in my strong side pocket with my last high ride holster it is a no go with my ALS holster. I love the holster and light on the gun but the holster is freaking HUGE.
If you think carrying a back up is overkill let me ask you a simple question. Do you always have a spare tire with your car? I do. I you were going on a really rough and long trip you would probably carry two spare tires. And on that note a full size spare rocks. Those little donut spares will work but not as well as a full size quality spare. Kinda like guns. I am just being honest I do not carry a spare gun off duty because I am not willing to go through the extra work. It is a compromise for me. I would suggest most of us will not need our guns offten if ever, but when you need it you need it. A BUG is then more likely to be necessary. It can also be used to arm a friendly and increase your effectiveness as a team.
If you're willing to put the effort into doing it right I would say always carry a BUG. Belt carey for primary and pocket BUG carry works well even in shorts. A good holster and good belt are a must.
Sorry guys but I just don't see the need for a bug off duty or for john q. Honestly I feel that if you really think you need a bug in those situations, you are visiting the wrong places... I know off duty I try to stay clear of places (I do carry 100%) I'll run into the same people I do at work. Sure there's a chance something may happen but, when I'm off work, I don't go places where I think I'll have to pull my gun, unlike when I go to work...
BUGs fill a lot of roles, for LE and citizens alike. They replace a primary that has expended it's ammo supply or has become inoperative. They are carried in a location that may be more discreetly grasped or prepped than others. They may be carried in a location that is more readily accessible in certain body positions. They can be used to arm others.
It's not about more guns per se, it's about having more options.
Furthermore, a lot of guys I run into that have ccw's are not responsible enough with one gun, God I hate to think what would happen if they all had two. If it's just one falls out of an ankle hostler and found by who knows who, or I can see it now, "here, i got a spare gun, hold this if something goes down, that guy looks suspicious"
Many are responsible enough. I know a number of folks that carry 2, 3, and 4 guns. Daily. All day. You would never know it, and they certainly wouldn't ever drop a gun from an ankle rig.
I'm all for protecting yourself and to each his own, but I'd have a issue if I pulled over john q. and he's packing two.
In absence of a violation of statute, it's not your place to question it. It's actually none of your business.
If you don't think geographical location plays a part in the chance of a violent encounter you are very, very mistaken. I'll even go so far as to say that the "location" is the biggest overall factor on a violent encounter's chance. Yes, there is that chance that anything can happen anywhere but location has a huge factor on the "chance" of that something happening.
Location plays a role. The variable of location impacts statistical likelihood of victimization, and there are trends.
The biggest variable to concern yourself with is the will and motivation of the violent criminal actor you may meet. As he can be anywhere at anytime, one should prepare accordingly.
and if you can't conceal your weapon, you shouldn't be carrying it if you don't have a big ol badge showing...
I'm not a fan of open carry, with or without badges. I'm less a fan of statutes against it though. Open carry has merits and liabilities.
Interestingly, it's been my experience that those most likely to carelessly conceal their gun and inadvertently reveal their gun are most often cops, who have less to lose, and receive less scrutiny in doing so. Of course, there's always the "oops, did I do that? It's okay, check it out, I'm a cop..." factor too.
I don't know any officer personally that carries a bug when off duty but I will be sure to ask around and see what they think on this subject later this week.
I know a bunch who consider two guns, on duty or off, a minimum. If you've vocalized the opinions above locally, you may find that folks are less likely to reveal themselves to you.
"I feel" that carrying one while I'm off duty will serve me with any encounter I may have. If "you feel" that carrying a second is needed then go right ahead, it's your right.
Absolutely. Just be sure to leave them alone when they do it.
titsonritz
09-14-10, 20:06
Now it is a G27 In my off hand pocket. It used to be in my strong side pocket with my last high ride holster it is a no go with my ALS holster. I love the holster and light on the gun but the holster is freaking HUGE.
IMO a BUG should be accessible to your off hand (both is better) in the event of your primary hand being injured, restrained or otherwise out of the fight.
IMO a BUG should be accessible to your off hand (both is better) in the event of your primary hand being injured, restrained or otherwise out of the fight.
I agree it only makes sense. The chest and vest holsters worked but were super slow because the shirt had to be ripped open or unzipped before the draw could begin. The chest pouch was cool but expensive and washing the carrier made a second holster and carrier a good idea.
titsonritz
09-14-10, 20:58
That's right, a BUG and super slow is not a good thing. If your reaching for a BUG you're in a bad space and need that puppy NOW.
Bulldog7972
09-15-10, 08:20
Wow. I see that there's more than one hater here. The guy responds to a question and all of a sudden he's a pig, should re-think his career choice, suffers from the little man syndrome, is a power tripper, is sexually frustrated etc., etc. My God, whatever happened to debate? I thought that was the reason for the original question.
John_Wayne777
09-15-10, 08:39
My God, whatever happened to debate? I thought that was the reason for the original question.
The personal tone seen within some of the last several posts is indeed inappropriate and it should not be continued.
At the same time it is equally true that we're all big boys here, and that if someone shows up on this forum and makes a number of ridiculous assertions that they will probably be called on it rather quickly and sometimes in a manner that is somewhat curt.
So let's all chalk this up to "lessons learned" and move on, shall we?
jklaughrey
09-15-10, 08:57
If in fact he approached the question in an objective and informed manner, there would have been no reason to "lay the smackdown". However we are all big boys and we all know that peer pressure and attacking one's flaws or weak arguments with some curt remarks is although not the best way, but is the most easily effective way to take the wind out of a blusterous buffoons sails. Bulldog while you may not agree with certain comments, I however direct you to the fact that in my day during service of my country I have had far worse on a daily basis to motivate me from having permanent "head inserted in ass syndrome". John Wayne, no worries I will stay on topic brother.
Cheers!
titsonritz
09-15-10, 10:25
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. I'm done as well.
LEO.. I carry a Glock on my right hip and a J frame in my left pocket.. always.
GLOCK model varies. G19,21,22,23,34,27
J Frame is either a 642 or a 340.. this is how i carry at work and at home.
I am now in the process of waiting for an ankle rig for my 27 so i can carry that as a BUG off duty..
On duty it rides on my vest carrier.
Beat Trash
09-15-10, 14:59
Some interesting thoughts going back and forth here...
I'm a LEO in a department of around 1,100 officers. Back up guns are forbidden. Period.
That being said, back before the days of the Tasers, widgets, and gidgets we currently have hanging on our belts, I might have "misplaced" a S&W 642 in my off side rear pants pocket. Before it was a Seecamp 32acp.
When off duty, I don't carry a backup gun. I thought about it, but opted for a extra magazine instead for my Glock 19, or my M&P.
I think the concept of a backup gun for CCW carry has merit. But you must ask yourself why you are doing so?
We all must admit there will be those who carry two or three guns, just because they can. Ok, if you're licensed, have at it.
For the rest of the world, remember, the mission should dictate the gear, not the other way around. If I had carried a backup gun on duty, it was in case my dominate hand became injured, or as a fallback to prevent my primary gun from being taken and used against me during a struggle.
With that in mind, all the training I did with that gun was with the weak hand.
First look at the question by trying to determine what the mission of the backup gun would/could be. Not only will it be easier to answer if you should carry one, but it might also help determine what kind of backup gun is best for your needs.
parishioner
09-15-10, 16:31
Just in case anyone was maybe in the market for a J frame after reading this, S&W has a $50 rebate going on for them until the end of the year :)
Metallicus
09-15-10, 17:11
The reason you don't need a back up gun is the same reason the Titanic didn't need life boats.
Not carrying at least two is like saying "I'm sure if I get in a gun fight; everything will go perfect."
As Jeff Cooper put it
"You cannot make an appointment for an emergency"
If you don't mind the extra weight or logistics or carrying a BUG, by all means, go for it.
Consider it as insurance. You may never need it, but you'll be damn glad you had it if you do.
If you're not going to carry a BUG, at least carry an extra magazine for your primary carry...
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