Front Sight Training Institute

[RancidSumo]

I got a lifetime membership to Front Sight for graduation last week. I know that many here do not really like the place due to the video that they used and other things but please try to keep that out of the equation as I am not giving them any of my money, simply using a membership I already have.

Is the training that I will receive there of fairly high quality? I know it may not be as good as going to a Dynamics/Vickers/etc. course but I don't really have the money for that right now (college is EXPENSIVE) so I am planning on heading down to Vegas in a month or so to take their handgun course, providing the knowledge base here doesn't think that will do more harm than good.

Thanks in advance.

[120mm]

I've never been there, but I've never heard of Frontsight teaching anything wrong and harmful.

It is apparently better than nothing and it cost you nothing so far.

The question I'd ask myself in your shoes, is if you sold the certificate, what could you get for it?

Add to that the costs of actually attending the class.

Personally, as a college student, I'd explore options, first. Maybe find someone local willing to give free/cheap instruction.

[Outrider]

I knew a couple of their firearms instructors and what they had to teach with firearms, in my opinion, was useful. I took a carbine course with one after he left Front Sight to do his own thing. He was a local LE instructor at the time and it was a positive experience.

From what I have heard and seen when I was in Vegas, most of the problems Front Sight has have to do with the guy who owns it, Ignatius Piazza. He had tried to do some sort of planned community with unlimited use of the Front Sight facilities and training. It did succeed in getting money in at first. However, it was a bust for Front Sight financially because you had people repeatedly going through classes, taking up space that prevented new paying people from occupying. Further, the homes were never built so there was a lawsuit. I believe there was a court approved settlement.

In addition, an instructor told me there was also an exodus of some of the instructors after Piazza started to push his religious views on them.

And then, there was a fatal accident there with a visitor using the zip line. That really made them look bad. Basically Front Sight didn't follow their own safety procedures, didn't provide the guy with a helmet, there was a 16 year old running the thing and he let the guy go before he should have. There was a separate lawsuit from that accident.

[CoryCop25]

From the little information I know about it, the instructors follow an outline of the course. They do not deviate from the outline and in my opinion, you can't ever get ahead of the learning curve. You must do it their way and the student can not suggest a better way to perform a specific drill.

[G_M]

A co-worker went to Frontsight to get some pistol training. He came back with a few things that I felt were contrary to the norm taught in well established training centers.

1) They taught him strict Weaver style for pistol work.

Leads me to wonder what their philosophy is behind teaching Weaver and how they came to that conclusion. When every established school in the US, Military, Law Enforcement and all the top level competitors shoot Isosceles I wonder what exactly is going through their heads. The only people that shoot Weaver now are Hollywood actors.

2) I have been told that they teach proper flashlight use. However when I questioned him (co-worker) what kind of light he was going to get he told me no way. A flashlight is a big no no since its a bullet magnet. I thought to myself dang! Here I was thinking I'll get some free tips on low light work but nope!

So I don't know what happened there. Poor student? Poor instructor? or a little of both? Either way I probably won't be knocking on his door after the sun sets.

LMS has a presence in the Vegas area and they are definitely good to go. You might save your good money and ammunition for a class from them. They are based out of Fenerly NV so it looks like a equal trip from WY.

Even though class may be free ammunition is not. Neither is gas/plane ticket or hotel. So why spend good money and time on someone that has a questionable reputation when there are better options in NV.

I don't think they will teach you anything too bad (but again I wonder what their mindset is when they teach Weaver and how that may translate to other things they teach). But I will say you can probably get more out of your money if you try other options in that area.

[Oscar 319]

My opinion? "Dr." Iggy Piazza is a grade A piece of shit after his "Stop Screaming, Start Shooting" promo.

Before that, I just considered him a scam artist with no credibility as a trainer/instructor.

On the upside? They give a free XD with a class. :rolleyes:

I would never give him, or anything he represents a dime.

Read on: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=46290&page=1

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34175

These are the folks I picture when I think of Front Sight: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=55363

[JSantoro]

due to the video that they used and other things

That's a symptom, not the disease.

They're very set-piece in their training. Instead of attempting to teach to a standard, they teach to a doctrine; theirs.

That, and the guy that owns it looks in the mirror every morning, sees that mustache of his, and thinks something along the lines of "Oh, yeah, that's the look I want!" Clearly insane.

It's a fantastic gesture on the part of your family, though. By all means, take advantage of it, but pursue other training opportunities from other instructors to the best of your ability.

[RancidSumo]

Thanks for all the advice so far. Like I said earlier, I know there are better options out there but it seems like training with them will get my foot in the door of proper training and won't really leave training scars. Is this pretty much an accurate statement?

[PRGGodfather]

Well, I don't know "Naish" personally. From what I have heard, sometimes the notion makes me feel a little slimy.

I do know a few of the instructors there: Wes L'Huillier, Richard Moreno, Scott Hoerner and Justin Campbell -- and they are all good guys, who watched my six when I couldn't do it myself.

Never having taken a class from them, as I need to be able to transition to my pistol if my carbine is out of service, I cannot comment as to curriculum or the organization as a whole.

Perhaps not the best, and perhaps not the worst, but at the end of the day, I have a very simple outlook coming from very occupied territory: He who is not against me, stands with me.

Yeah, I cannot say I agree or even like the marketing approach that "Naish" has used now or in the past. Yet, at least he tries to preserve the only real right that means anything when it comes to freedom; which is more than what most of us are really willing to do. It's easy to criticize from a keyboard.

Yeah, "Naish" makes a pretty penny having such "good intentions," but I still cannot fault him for such success. In the end, at least he has enough common sense to hire a few decent employees.

And yes, there are a few tools, too, -- but I will let you learn who they are, all by yourself.

Yes, I find some of "Naish's" marketing reprehensible. Yet, I would hoist a beer with him before I would share any air with Charles Schumer, and that's pretty much how simple I can be (and Barry O wouldn't even need to broker it!)

In my advanced age, it seems to make more sense to build other gun folks up, rather than tear them down. Our candles don't shine brighter, just because we blew out someone else's candle. And frankly, every time we do that, we may wish to ask ourselves why we thought others would perceive us as decent folk, after doing so.

An old salty Sergeant taught me this decades ago, "There is good training and there is bad training. Yet, it is all good training -- because we may learn to tell the difference."

YMMV. Please say hi to the boys for me if you decide free is a decent price.

[RancidSumo]

I figured they were mostly GTG but I was just looking for anything I needed to keep my eye out for such as the Weaver stance issue. Thanks everyone, I'm heading down there in September hopefully for a four day handgun.

[PRGGodfather]

A day burning ammunition is a good day.

Have fun, and if you can, please say Hi to the boys for me...

[bkb0000]

is there no way to sell your membership?

be careful.. i'd supplement any training you get there with other training from less questionable sources, just so you don't end up buying into some really gay shit.

for everyone who posted in here with a not-so-negative opinion, i guarantee there's 30 members holding their tongues. last time i got involved in a Front Sight thread, i got banned for 10 days.

[PRGGodfather]

As to supplementing training from other sources, that's always a good idea. What matters most is where you are in your level of training, what you intend to do with said training, and how committed you are to continuous training. After that, have an open mind -- and if something doesn't make sense, it probably doesn't.

Bluntly, this outfit is not on my personal list of schools to attend, because I prefer to spend my hard-earned money at schools who focus on improving my skills in LE scenarios -- and like to attend with a bunch of friends who have the same mission (and for the camaraderie and stress reduction clinics after class). IMHO, I think this place caters to a different market -- and I am not part of that market. Yet, any day at the range beats one behind a desk. If I had a bunch of civvy friends who were going and wanted me to tag along for free (maybe even to hear my cop perspective afterwards), I would probably go. And if something stunk to high heaven, I would be sure to point that out.

For families learning to shoot, folks developing basic skills, and general firearms safety -- I would expect them to be competent. For more advanced, combat-oriented courses where speed to target, economy of motion, and simplying technique to account for how stupid we become under real stress -- I have chosen other folks, as their courses are focused on my specific mission.

Firsthand, I spent almost a month there on another project and I found the four gents mentioned to be excellent folks -- and would break bread (and blow up big stuff) with them at every opportunity. Of course, I tend to like gun folks -- even when they are at different levels or have different perspectives from mine. Heck, I might even agree with 2% of what they have to say!

Best to you, regardless of your choice. Keep your head on a swivel, and don't trust the knucklehead behind you. While curriculum can be debated, no one would argue that there is at least one idiot in every class...

[RancidSumo]

I'll tell them you said hi. I'm not going to sell the membership as what I've seen seems to say that the training is at least decent. This will be my first official training but by no means my last. I'll be moving to CO this fall so I'll be closer to all the courses hosted in Pueblo but this seems to be a great way to start my training and improve my very limited skills with a handgun. I don't think I'm too likely to buy into much garbage as I do have quite a lot of shooting experience with a rifle so basic marksmanship I know. If there is an actual reason as to why the training there is not up to par, please let me know.

[G_M]

Hopefully you'll write us all a AAR (after action report) and let us in on the experience you had.

[RancidSumo]

Definitely will do. I'm not exactly qualified to say what is and what isn't good training but I should be able to write up a decent AAR and then all you pros can fill me in.

[rifleman2000]

An old salty Sergeant taught me this decades ago, "There is good training and there is bad training. Yet, it is all good training -- because we may learn to tell the difference."


I don't agree with this philosophy. I had a coach tell me the only good practice is perfect practice. If you are training and being taught things that are incorrect, it will only make learning how to do it correctly harder.

Sounds like, based on the comments above, Front Site training might teach things better left alone.

[NCPatrolAR]

I don't agree with this philosophy.

I equate it to being PC. A positive spin doesnt have to be put on everything.

[Littlelebowski]

I don't agree with this philosophy. I had a coach tell me the only good practice is perfect practice. If you are training and being taught things that are incorrect, it will only make learning how to do it correctly harder.

Sounds like, based on the comments above, Front Site training might teach things better left alone.

Same here. Flawed training leads to muscle memory that's difficult to unlearn. I could understand buying the wrong tires, DVD player, computer, etc but training upon which you stake your life?

Pass.

[WillBrink]

My experience: I was there for the SWAT Challenge as a vendor. Many problems were had, but not on topic, so:

Myself and another person who is a high level shooter (much higher level then myself, ex SOF, SWAT for big city dept, instructor, etc) were shooting at one of the bays. One of their instructors watched us for a while. He then came up and told us he he's owned all manner of high end 1911s, and none of them were reliable, gave us a lecture on how crappy 1911s were, etc, and informed us Glocks were the only way to go. My shooting partner and I looked at each other with a WTF look, ad went back to shooting. He had other "advice" for us that was also BS to the max and offered my myself and partner some advice for shooting 1911s that didn't leave us with enthusiasm....

Never took a course there, but I will say the general opinion that week by pretty much everyone I spoke to that was there, was not good, not good at all. Don't know if this is still the case, but the instructors all wore matching paramilitary/Nazi like outfits that also got various comments, none of which were complimentary. No, has nothing to do with quality of courses, but for me and others, just gave a poor general impression.

Having said all that, I never taken a course there, and some have reported decent instruction, and it is a great set up as ranges go.

Matching that up to the known history of the place, and other factors, and unless it was all free and right down the road, wold not be on the short list.

Places change, was a while ago I experienced the above, maybe it's much better now.

[PRGGodfather]

I don't agree with this philosophy. I had a coach tell me the only good practice is perfect practice. If you are training and being taught things that are incorrect, it will only make learning how to do it correctly harder.

Sounds like, based on the comments above, Front Site training might teach things better left alone.

Anyone who knows me knows I'm not PC. Being gracious and having manners isn't the same as being politically correct. Political correctness is crap squirted into an ice cream cone, even when we all should be able to tell the difference. Further, I would tell you people who mistake kindness for weakness are the biggest fools of all. And folks who like to pass negative gossip without confirming it themselves, offer suffer from the same karma, YMMV.

I also know that speculation always works in two directions -- and on the internet, it is amplified, and such things can make and break otherwise decent folks -- just because camps are made and lines are drawn over otherwise trivial stuff.

Like I said, Front Sight is not on my list of trainers, because their training curriculum does not emulate my incident of encounter -- but there are a lot of folks not on my list -- and that doesn't mean squat. Unless these folks shoot the OP while on site, there is little risk for him to take one for the team and then give us a firsthand AAR. And yes, the black and gray uniform is the dumbest idea in the desert, even according to the guys who work there.

On the other hand, I know at least one clown who was summarily dangerous with firearms, even with his Army training -- who learned the firearms basics pretty well, after taking a Basic Handgun course. He even remembers all the safety rules, which is a good thing. Heck, even Col. Cooper was an advocate of the modified Weaver -- bless his soul -- and the fact that current doctrine has improved on such technique does not make him any less an icon. Then again, perhaps so many of us are too high speed to take such a basic course.

I'm no fan of Piazza, but the facility is awesome and I know some of the instructors were very good guys. That's the extent of my firsthand knowledge, and I try hard not to pass negative stuff about anyone unless I know it firsthand.

And yes, perfect practice tends to make perfect performance. And in the real world, perfect practice doesn't mean you live, either. When it's your time, it's your time. Of course, that reality doesn't sell training courses, either, now -- does it? What's in vogue today is vogue today, and all of that is temporary. We should always try to obtain the best advantages we can, to be sure -- and that is not in dispute. Still, it takes trial and experience before we know what is actually good and what isn't. If you really think you're perfect, well...

There is no doubt that there is some twit out there who claims he won't sleep with Scarlett Johannsen because her boobs are too big. Whatever.

[Gutshot John]

If you lay down with dogs...

[PRGGodfather]

Yeah, I get that. Dogs just aren't the only critters with fleas. If we don't keep clean, humans get them, too.

[gumby223]

If you can't sell the certificate, then go ahead and take advantage of the free training. Just be mindful that there are other techniques and schools of thought to explore other than Front Sight's.