View Full Version : SERPA Replacement
Sparky5019
06-04-10, 19:41
Grant just enlightened me that the BH SERPA is banned by many LE agencies and considered unsafe by many!:eek:
While I have not had any problems with mine, I would like to know what y'all consider to be the best replacement holster and why.;)
Have at it and, as always, thanks!
Sparky
For what? Duty?
For CCW/personal carry I like the Raven Concealment Holster systems. I had to suffer with a Serpa thing while I waited for my Phantom from Raven to get made.
Sparky5019
06-04-10, 20:20
Sorry...the application is competition; mainly 3-Gun.
I want something that encloses the slide/ejection port or just below it (using a G22).
Thanks,
Sparky
Safariland ALS or Comp Tac.
I run a raven concealment systems light compatable phantom for every day ccw, classes I instruct and take and in ACTS matches here in Michigan.
Fast draws, easy reholstering and cofortable all day wear. Very durable but if it does break they have a lifetime unconditional guarentee.
Check em out:
www.ravenconcealmentsystems.com
Potential Serpa holster problems?
- Any holster that requires your TRIGGER finger to push inward to activate the release is an AD waiting to happen.
- The release button on the holster can get clogged with debris. Maybe this is not an issue for you. For LEO, MIL and anyone serious about self defense, this is huge. Imagine being involved in a scuffle on the ground and rolling on your weapon side, pressing small rocks into spaces between the button. The situation escalates to a deadly force situation...the only problem...your gun is now stuck in that damned bubba Serpa....the button will not depress. Huge problem.
There are many better options out there. I recommend the Safailand ALS 6377 for your needs.
ETA Link from 2008; my first ALS. I swear by them now. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=185936
my thoughts on the Serpa:
http://www.firearmstrainingandtactics.com/forums/showthread.php?81-An-Honest-SERPA-review&p=481
for carry I like kydex, I run a custom www.atomicdogholsters.com stingray for OWB and a Comp-tac kxdex/leather minotaur for IWB
for competition I like a sidearmor. The draw is similar, but I have a nice speed cut, I can turn the retention way down, and completly adjustable cant.
I want something that encloses the slide/ejection port or just below it (using a G22).
I vote for the Comp-Tac holsters.
http://www.comp-tac.com/
I like my Safariland holsters, I also have used Sidearmor holsters for years without issue.
I am just now trying a Raven Concelament holster, but they fit and carry well, just no long term things I can mention; yet.
For OWB Comp Tac Paddle and Raven Phantom.
cougar_guy04
06-04-10, 22:18
Sorry...the application is competition; mainly 3-Gun.
I want something that encloses the slide/ejection port or just below it (using a G22).
Thanks,
Sparky
For 3-gun competition I use Comp-tac (standard belt holster) and Blade-tech (tek-lok w/ Drop-offset) for competition. More often than not, I'm using the DOH.
For a Small-framed Glock, your options are pretty much endless between those two manufacturers.
For EDC, I use Comp-tac and Raven.
IMO, perceived problems with the SERPA stem from training. I've had the SERPA since they came out...I've used them on deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan...using a belt-mount and a vest-mount (vest mount is used during mounted and dismounted operations; belt-mount mostly used in garrison; also have a drop-leg mount, but was inconvenient)
You really need to try to put your finger on the trigger when drawing. if you don't already have trigger-finger discipline, then you might have a problem. I have never found my finger on the trigger when drawing unless I put it there.
I wouldn't change anything (yet) based on what you read on the internet about what someone else heard about a holster. if it works for you....it works for you. If a PD disallows their officers to use...good for them; if it works for you...use it.
I have every respect for Grant....but disagree with his opinion.
Raven, hands down..
I have several, comfortable, solid rig.
I vote for the Comp-Tac holsters.
http://www.comp-tac.com/
As do I. I have been running the Speed Belt for 2 years for IDPA and have been very pleased.
I just found these. I haven't ordered yet, I thought one might be worth a try for some of the pistols that I don't shoot regulalry.
http://www.atomicdogholsters.com/
The_Biased_Observer
06-05-10, 14:19
When the Serpa "problems" started surfacing I took a hard look at them and compared the described scenarios to reality. Some were everyday scenarios and others were a stretch. At any rate, it looked like right away many trainers jumped on the anti Serpa bandwagon based upon other reviews, I've read a few that actually had problems and others, like above, insist the trigger finger issue will cause ND's. So far, the trigger finger issue seems to be BS hyperbole, I've seen many agencies using the holster for plainclothes duty and zero problems. Maybe someone will provide some data on ND's with the Serpa here....
The Safariland is probably equally susceptible to foreign material clogging up the works but few state that is a weak point.
I have both and recommend either, the Serpa rides higher but farther from the body, the Safariland rides lower and closer, at least for me.
My agency issues the Serpa and the only issue we have had is with the paddle attachments breaking from repeated flexing, nothing with the belt loop attachment. I've had small rocks and dirt in the release lever but nothing that prevented drawing, just required a little extra finger pressure. I've had similar problems with other holsters that were harder the clear.
I do still see them on military employees in occasional photos and other civilian agencies, my guess is the problems are overstated.
I do still see them on military employees in occasional photos and other civilian agencies, my guess is the problems are overstated.
No, in the military, the wearers are hampered by a combo of 1) not having the info regarding SERPA's innumerable failures to draw due to debris interference and 2) being stuck with no better option due to what their -4 shop is willing to get and local SOPs. It's a command failure and issue of institutional inertia, not a nod to the efficacy of the hardware. This is the same with many of the other agencies you bring up: they can only wear what they're told they can wear, which was bought by somebody in charge with no more active product knowledge than what he/she's gleaned from whatever catalog is sitting next to their crapper.
If you're diddy-bopping along in environments that have no more present particulate matter than a city street, you're probably okay (plainclothes duty). Competition, you're life isn't depending on your holster, only your score.
Issues with Safariland 6004/6377 and similar can be conclusively explained by matters of outright breakage or getting dragged through environments that would gank up any holster (like mud-slogging along the banks of the Euphrates), not the design of the holster itself.
Sparky5019
06-05-10, 19:49
Thanks for the recommendations y'all! While I am not crawling around in the forest where debris acn get into the lock, I am going to stick with mine for now. It ran fine today. I will save serious testing for an upcoming time where I can make comparisons fairly and give appropriate consideration to all the choices listed; obviously when more time and $$ allows! Thanks fo all the opinions!
Sparky
Heavy Metal
06-05-10, 20:11
Safariland ALS.
I like the way the release forces you to assume a correct grip.
....and the $18.50 per holster with free shipping sale OMBExpress had a while back made it an easy choice. I got three and feel like I stole them for that price.
I think I am going to mount my Serpa under the seat in my Jeep.
I have never been particularly enamored with the Serpa either for many of the reason previously cited by others. My agency however requires at least a Level II retention system....
I ran across this system..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJfNb0PVbXU
....the 5.11 Thumb Drive. It has some intriguing possiblities unfortunately only available for the most common Glock models at this point. Has anyone had any expierience w/ one yet?
IMO, perceived problems with the SERPA stem from training. I've had the SERPA since they came out...I've used them on deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan...using a belt-mount and a vest-mount (vest mount is used during mounted and dismounted operations; belt-mount mostly used in garrison; also have a drop-leg mount, but was inconvenient)
You really need to try to put your finger on the trigger when drawing. if you don't already have trigger-finger discipline, then you might have a problem. I have never found my finger on the trigger when drawing unless I put it there.
I wouldn't change anything (yet) based on what you read on the internet about what someone else heard about a holster. if it works for you....it works for you. If a PD disallows their officers to use...good for them; if it works for you...use it.
I have every respect for Grant....but disagree with his opinion.
If you have correct trigger discipline, your finger will deactivate the the retention system somewhere around the knuckle. Under stress (from something as simple as a shot timer) people will use the end of the trigger to deactivate it. If you have never had someone watching your finger, then you won't know it.
This is of course just one problem. The other problem is that if any kind of sand/dirt/rocks get into the retention system, the gun won't come out.
So with two strikes against it, no QUALITY instructors recommending it for serious use and truckloads of other quality holsters out there, you have to ask yourself why???
C4
When the Serpa "problems" started surfacing I took a hard look at them and compared the described scenarios to reality. Some were everyday scenarios and others were a stretch. At any rate, it looked like right away many trainers jumped on the anti Serpa bandwagon based upon other reviews, I've read a few that actually had problems and others, like above, insist the trigger finger issue will cause ND's. So far, the trigger finger issue seems to be BS hyperbole, I've seen many agencies using the holster for plainclothes duty and zero problems. Maybe someone will provide some data on ND's with the Serpa here....
The Safariland is probably equally susceptible to foreign material clogging up the works but few state that is a weak point.
I have both and recommend either, the Serpa rides higher but farther from the body, the Safariland rides lower and closer, at least for me.
My agency issues the Serpa and the only issue we have had is with the paddle attachments breaking from repeated flexing, nothing with the belt loop attachment. I've had small rocks and dirt in the release lever but nothing that prevented drawing, just required a little extra finger pressure. I've had similar problems with other holsters that were harder the clear.
I do still see them on military employees in occasional photos and other civilian agencies, my guess is the problems are overstated.
No, the issues are there. Have read and heard of many accounts of pistols being locked in and ND's from instructors.
To use them when there are so many other options is just foolish.
C4
Sparky5019
06-05-10, 20:59
I respect all of your opinions...I had stated that I was surprised that the SERPA had a bad rep. I see how the lock could be a problem and will stick with mine until I have the time and $$ to fairly test some others. I admit that when I initially got it, I felt like I was riding the gun in the holster to get it unlocked so it was a real change. I have been shooting under timer stress for 20 years and do not, generally, "shit myself at the beep" anymore but will never say never.
I appreciate everyone's opinions as y'all have given some excellent choices to test. Please feel free to post more suggestions for gear and your rationale for choosing it. As I do not want this thread to turn into an argument, let's just stick to choices and reasons please!
Thanks,
Sparky
http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=49242&highlight=serpa
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=393441
C4
I see what Gabe wrote back in 2005....and from what I understand, BH changed the design to use larger screws to attach the holster to the belt/paddle attachment.
I also went over to Gabe's training website...and if his post from 2008 still remains true, there is no limitation on using the SERPA holster.
from the Close range Gunfighting page http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/closerangegunfighting.aspx:
Requirements: Modern Defensive Pistol, Holster specifically made for that pistol and designed to be worn on the belt, 3 Magazines and Magazine Pouch, A Belt of the same width as the belt loops for the holster and magazine pouches, Range Safety Gear (Eye protection, and ear protection)
My agency uses Safariland 6280s and recently authorized BH Serpas for duty use.
My initial and most important reason for not doing the switch over was because I've had the most training on the Safariland from the academy. You do need to qual with the new holster in order to carry it, but I know that not everyone shoots as much on their personal time to get to the same level that we have all had from FLETC. The 6280 is what I am used to, and I actually like the simple, yet effective retention mechanism.
While, I'm not the greatest shot or the most high speed guy there, it is my personal opinion that many guys switched over to the Serpa because it was "cooler". Blackhawk! being a household name now probably had a lot to do with it as well.
I know that this forum prides itself on members who give personal experience, but I must admit that all of my ancillary reasons for not choosing the Serpa was after a great amount of reading about its potential problems from other forums.
I guess it would give my opinion meaning for me to try it, but when I'm on duty, I diddybop through the desert at times where there is a ton of foreign materials that may hinder the mechanism and I do not want to be the test case in that one in a 500 chance I have to draw and actually use my pistol. Also, while I'm not saying it doesn't or hasn't happened with the 6280, I have seen the bale down on my partner's Serpa holster after coming out of some rough thicket or deep washes.
Yes, I have seen all the photos of soldiers currently overseas with the Serpa but since I am not and have never served on a level where the procurement process is my main duty, it never really occurred to me until it was brought up in a previous post in this thread. Who knows if they are using it by choice, or if it was what they were issued?
Oh, apologies as duty carry was not what the OP was asking about.
Sparky5019
06-06-10, 19:33
CGSteve,
No apology needed. I am interested in all the opinions here although you are right, duty and crawling around in the forest where there is a lot of loose debris on the ground is not my primary concern. I do need something that I can rely on even when getting into some awkward/unconventional positions but have had no problems as yet with the SERPA even having a blade of grass on it when I get up.
Keep them coming!
Thanks,
Sparky
I see what Gabe wrote back in 2005....and from what I understand, BH changed the design to use larger screws to attach the holster to the belt/paddle attachment.
I also went over to Gabe's training website...and if his post from 2008 still remains true, there is no limitation on using the SERPA holster.
from the Close range Gunfighting page http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/closerangegunfighting.aspx:
The screws snapping was just one more issue.
They might not put it in writing any more, but the fact still remains that no quality instructor recommends them (clue).
C4
Robb Jensen
06-06-10, 21:37
I wasn't at the Sir Walter Raleigh (in NC) USPSA match yesterday but a guy using a Blackhawk Serpa shot himself in the leg at that match.
I hate to see people using these at matches or training classes. They are just an accident waiting to happen. I often wear a Safariland ALS holster at work with a Glock 22 Gen 4 in it or a Glock 17. It's a way better design.
Heavy Metal
06-06-10, 22:01
I did figure out a safe way to run the Serpa. You have to always keep your finger straight.
The way to work the release is to come in behind it finger straight and straighten your wrist moving the finger flat up against the stop. This will roll over the lever rather than depressing it and it will promote proper finger discipline and ensure the finger is above the trigger guard, flat against the side of the slide when you withdraw it.
That said, I just bought three ALS holsters so do the math.
it is my personal opinion that many guys switched over to the Serpa because it was "cooler". Blackhawk! being a household name now probably had a lot to do with it as well.
Ooooooooo, guilty!
I got one before they were a fairly common issue item. Didn't like the cloth holsters, and the mechanism is sound at the conceptual level. Plus, I was so new to the practice of being pistol-armed in addition to carbine that I squeaked when I turned quickly, and I mistakenly figured that the pistol was just one more thing for me to account for, hence my primary concern being retention. I didn't know what I didn't know.
Lots of other guys got the things, too. After my incident, they were all ditched because we caught a lucky break: while rooting around, we'd found a stache of other Blackhawk holsters. A nylon type called the QRG, I think, or something similar. Very like the Omega IV series, a thumb-break but with a very basic plastic/Kydex insert that provided basic friction retention and kept the holster mouth from collapsing. A damned nice design, if you like tumb-break cloth holsters. I actually kinda liked it and wish I'd kept the thing.
Don Robison
06-06-10, 23:02
I see what Gabe wrote back in 2005....and from what I understand, BH changed the design to use larger screws to attach the holster to the belt/paddle attachment.
I also went over to Gabe's training website...and if his post from 2008 still remains true, there is no limitation on using the SERPA holster.
from the Close range Gunfighting page http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/closerangegunfighting.aspx:
I'm not speaking for Gabe, but he banned them for a while and then backed off. We discourage there use and would really rather not see them in class. If you shoot yourself because of a SERPA big boy rules apply.
Personally, I can't see how anyone would give them a second look when there are quite a few quality holsters on the market unless they are A. uneducated and don't know any better or B. cheap.
I'm not speaking for Gabe, but he banned them for a while and then backed off. We discourage there use and would really rather not see them in class. If you shoot yourself because of a SERPA big boy rules apply.
Personally, I can't see how anyone would give them a second look when there are quite a few quality holsters on the market unless they are A. uneducated and don't know any better or B. cheap.
Cheap and uneducated. My favorite combo.
C4
I've seen several posts citing the use of the SERPA by the military as justification for using them. Having worked in Iraq almost continuously since April '04, I've observed and interacted with the military on a regular basis.
I would strongly caution anyone from using a SERPA just because they see Joe using it. I've also observed tons of these same people wearing their drop leg holsters closer to their knee than to their hip. (Big clue). I've lost track of the number of military running around with three point slings (another clue). Not to bag on Joe, but your run of the mill military guy is neither a gun nor gear expert. Anecdotally they seem to be at about a decade behind the times. In many cases they get the cool guy gear, but not the cool guy training to go with it.
This is coming from a guy who spent almost eight years in the Army to include 2nd Ranger Battalion. I still love the Army and the other services to a lesser extent, but I'm not blind to their shortcomings.
I tend to follow the lead of the guys who shoot people in the face at close range with large caliber handguns for a living. These apex predators seem to use the Safariland 6004 series and I've yet to see one running a SERPA. Not that I get to interact with them on a regular basis.
Don Robison
06-07-10, 09:55
Cheap and uneducated. My favorite combo.
C4
Uneducated can usually be overcome. I've found it much more difficult to overcome cheap.:eek:
I just found these. I haven't ordered yet, I thought one might be worth a try for some of the pistols that I don't shoot regulalry.
http://www.atomicdogholsters.com/
another great clone of the Raven holster, funny how these all cropped up after raven got popular....copies ares the best form of flattery they say......:rolleyes:
I have seen no less than 3 ND with serpa's one resulting in injury
Ooooooooo, guilty!
I got one before they were a fairly common issue item. Didn't like the cloth holsters, and the mechanism is sound at the conceptual level. Plus, I was so new to the practice of being pistol-armed in addition to carbine that I squeaked when I turned quickly, and I mistakenly figured that the pistol was just one more thing for me to account for, hence my primary concern being retention. I didn't know what I didn't know.
Lots of other guys got the things, too. After my incident, they were all ditched because we caught a lucky break: while rooting around, we'd found a stache of other Blackhawk holsters. A nylon type called the QRG, I think, or something similar. Very like the Omega IV series, a thumb-break but with a very basic plastic/Kydex insert that provided basic friction retention and kept the holster mouth from collapsing. A damned nice design, if you like tumb-break cloth holsters. I actually kinda liked it and wish I'd kept the thing.
This is the first bad reviews I am hearing about the serpa. What holster would you recommend for me being an armory custodian? Right now I use a CQC Serpa on my belt. I prefer having one on my belt as opposed to a drop leg for every day armory use.
This is the first bad reviews I am hearing about the serpa. What holster would you recommend for me being an armory custodian? Right now I use a CQC Serpa on my belt. I prefer having one on my belt as opposed to a drop leg for every day armory use.
Do you need retention?
C4
This is the first bad reviews I am hearing about the serpa. What holster would you recommend for me being an armory custodian? Right now I use a CQC Serpa on my belt. I prefer having one on my belt as opposed to a drop leg for every day armory use.
If you are looking for a holster to replace what the Serpa does, IE, automatic retention upon reolstering and concealment is not a concern, ALS (Automatic Locking System) is the best option available. Look at the 6377.
If you like closer to the body, easier to conceal holsters and do not need a retention device there are several options from Raven, Blade-tech and Comp-tac. Hell, I've got a $20 Fobus paddle kicking around that has served me well for over 10 years.
Do you need retention?
C4
It would be nice but it is not necessary.
Sorry OP, I don't mean to hijack.
It would be nice but it is not necessary.
Sorry OP, I don't mean to hijack.
If not needed, then look at Raven Concealment.
C4
When the Serpa "problems" started surfacing I took a hard look at them and compared the described scenarios to reality.
People have really shot themselves, had the mechanism jammed and physically ripped them off in training.
Calling them "problems" in quotations like they aren't really seems a little delusional. This stuff has happened. They aren't "described scenarios" that can be compared to reality, they are reality.
With other holsters out there that do the same thing in a better and safer way, why would you choose equipment with known issues?
Don Robison
06-07-10, 17:28
I do still see them on military employees in occasional photos and other civilian agencies, my guess is the problems are overstated.
I also see 6004's at about knee level every morning when I go through the gate on base. These aren't the folks I'll be looking to for holster advice.
The Safariland isn't maintenance free, but it's all but impossible for a stone to get in the hood mechanism and jam it unlike the Serpa lock. It's also pretty difficult to shoot yourself drawing from a Safariland.
ETA: Your department issues Serpas at less that $30 a piece vs. Safariland at $100+ a piece. Why do you think that is?
For what it's worth, I have seen a Serpa go tits up....
I was showing a buddy how shoot "urban prone" under a vehicle. A little while after he went to check his Glock and the button would not depress.
He took the holster off and we punched and pounded some little gravel rocks out. Then he procedes to yell at me for "****ing up his holster". :p It was funny as hell. What made it funny was that I was always arguing with him about the Serpa being a POS. I explain to him that this could have been a real life situation, and he would have been in trouble had he need to do a transition to his handgun.
So, what does he do? He goes out and buys a Serpa/Xiphos light combo...Doh! :rolleyes: To his credit, he is a great kid, trains hard and is very competent with this set up.
If not needed, then look at Raven Concealment.
C4
Thanks, Grant. I appreciate the info.
What are your guys' thoughts about the 6004 tactical SLS holster? It looks like they won't retain the holster without the light attached; just wondering if anyone thinks this might be a bit of a liability.
Further, I wouldn't mind hearing what you guys think about a holster with light attached vs. no light attached in-holster. Intended use would be 3-gun and tactical firearms training, along with home defense. I wouldn't necessarily use this set-up on duty. Thoughts?
Thanks,
Pat
The_Biased_Observer
06-14-10, 00:26
The Safariland isn't maintenance free, but it's all but impossible for a stone to get in the hood mechanism and jam it unlike the Serpa lock. It's also pretty difficult to shoot yourself drawing from a Safariland.
Sorry, but I've personally had an SLS hood jam from moondust and rocks in the setup. Not a bad holster and is my current uniformed setup, but it's not perfect either.
Also had a hood jam on a Safariland a few times doing training where you get hit in the face if you don't get unholstered and drawn down on the attacker. I went to my SERPA for the next sessions and was very much faster, didn't let the attacker get close enough.
I've never had a "rock or something" get stuck in my holster. I have it on my carrier for mounted ops or a paddle set up otherwise. I have no clue what the problems are because I haven't had any. I haven't seen anyone else have problems either. The breakage must be from when they first came out.
There are some hi-speed mofo's out there in there running them. To each his own. I own a crossbreed IWB for my 226 at home.
Robb Jensen
06-14-10, 05:33
What are your guys' thoughts about the 6004 tactical SLS holster? It looks like they won't retain the holster without the light attached; just wondering if anyone thinks this might be a bit of a liability.
Further, I wouldn't mind hearing what you guys think about a holster with light attached vs. no light attached in-holster. Intended use would be 3-gun and tactical firearms training, along with home defense. I wouldn't necessarily use this set-up on duty. Thoughts?
Thanks,
Pat
My training rig which is an Eagle padded Molle belts now has a Peters holster for my M&P Pro with a X300 mounted. This is for training and some 3gun. Previosly I was using a Safariland 6005.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/Petersholster2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/Petersholster.jpg
Blackhawk nylon gear has about the worst quality control in the industry. I'm not sure why that would prompt anyone to buy a holster made by them.
I have 3 Safariland holsters (2 6004's and one ALS), all are built to take tons of abuse.
I have 3 G-Code holsters which are sold by Eagle. The Kydex they use is the thickest I have seen from any company. If they are in stock, you will have it in 3-4 days.
I have 3 Raven Concealment holsters which use very thin Kydex. I'm a little skeptical on the kydex belt loops for OWB carry. The holsters are well made but I'm not sure I would ever wait 3 months for one again.
I have one Comp-Tac IWB holster which is very nice and their products do not have a long wait time.
My favorite holster right now is a Ready Tactical OWB holster sold by SKD. Very compact speed holster and the loops are built into it.
There are lots of great choices out there to replace your SERPA (Uncle mikes is not one of them).
Just last week I ordered a Raven w/Magpul mod, and they emailed me back to tell me it would be about 13 weeks before they could deliver. That timing didn't really work for me, so I ordered a Blade Tech with the extra DOH last Thursday and it arrived today. Nice holster! I don't think I'll miss the Raven at all.
The SLS will not reliably hold a gun (without light) in a "gun with light" holster. The ALS will.
If you have a pistol light, it should be on the gun. The only exception I can think of to this is competition, where having a light might push you into a different class. There's literally zero downside to running a light on the gun; I carry a G19/X300 IWB every day. It's no more or less comfortable than a G19 without the light.
If you wear the gun for a living, put the light on it.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.