View Full Version : Recommendations for a reliable and accurate .380
I know I shouldn't post a question re: .380s in this forum, but you guys are as knowledgeable as you are opinionated. My problem is I'm a little guy and can't conceal a 9mm. I've checked the compact Sigs and CZ Rami, but no dice.
I have a J-frame airweight, but can't shoot it worth shit. Perhaps with tons of practice I could improve, but at the cost of a lot of money, range time and a sore hand/wrist. Besides, there's nothing worse than carrying a gun you don't feel confident shooting.
So, I'm looking for a top-notch reliable and accurate .380. Preferably one that has natural pointability, but I'm not sure if that's applicable in such a small gun. I don't know if .380s are mostly striker-fired or not, but would prefer a DA/SA with exposed hammer. Any recommendations?
arbninftry
06-05-10, 11:59
There is no magic gun with a magic bullet to fit everyone, but a Sig 232 will meet your requirements. But there are other guns out there, have you tried a browning hi-power it is thin and does shoot 9mm, The M&P 9C is smaller too. dont get roped around one platform, if it works for you and you are confident in your shooting abilities with the platform, use it. One more tool to put in your self defense tool box.
Littlelebowski
06-05-10, 12:03
I'd forego the .380 requirement and get a 9mm Walther PPS.
Still love the old Colt Mustang for .380... Decent trigger, decent sights and runs if you keep it wet.
a glock 26 and a good belt and holster can be concealed by anybody... try appendix carry...
that said, i think the seecamp 380's have a pretty good rep. they're not cheap, but quality never is.
The Dumb Gun Collector
06-05-10, 12:10
Seriously, check out the Kahr PM9. It is smaller than almost all .380s. The Walther PPS is right up there too. I have seriously considered ditching all my other guns and just carrying a PM9.
Seriously, check out the Kahr PM9. It is smaller than almost all .380s. The Walther PPS is right up there too. I have seriously considered ditching all my other guns and just carrying a PM9.
I appreciate the recommendations on the Kahr and Walther, but don't want a striker-fired pistol. Perhaps I'm being dangerously naive/ignorant, but I'd like a gun that I can pocket carry without a holster, if desired. DA/SA pistols, w/exposed hammers, don't strike me as being dangerous to carry (in condition 2) without a holster. That's definately a no go with a striker-fired gun. Please correct me if this is flawed thinking.
Littlelebowski
06-05-10, 12:52
I think it is flawed thinking. A weapon with external safety and NO holster in your pocket? The pocket holsters are fast and safe.
Not to be an ass, but this is flawed thinking...
You are essentially forgoing a more capable, powerful handgun, that is just as small, because you want to carry it in a pocket without a holster. Some guy in Lynnwood Wa just shot himself in the balls at the local walmart doing that. If you are going to carry a semi auto, you need to put it in a pocket holster. It disrupts the outline of the gun, it protects the trigger from inadvertant pulling, and its not like you are going to be firing it from within the pocket anyway.
I have found that most 380s kick as hard as 9mms. I have a student that is 5'2'' and weighs just over a hundred pounds. She conceals a 9mm. I carry a Kahr 9 in road cycling kit. It is doable.
Get a small 9mm pistol, get a pocket holster and a good inside the waist band holster and proceed.
Don't rely on the weight of the trigger to protect you from a ND. If you're going to carry your gun, put it in an adequate holster. Not doing so makes you a liability to yourself and anyone around you.
I know you're set on something tiny, but I know small petite women who can conceal some of the 9mm's on the market.
Forget about the .380's and look into something like a Kahr PM9.
And don't completely rule out IWB holsters.
Thanks for all the solid advise. I didn't want to have to chase .380 ammo and add another platform when I already have a 9mm. Guess I'm hesitant to change and never felt comfortable with striker-fired guns. I'll get a good holster and go with the little Kahr or Walther.
Beat Trash
06-05-10, 13:24
A pocket holster is a must. Even one of the cheap Uncle Mikes or Desantes can be very efficient.
If you must go with a 380, then the Sig 232 is good, and I'd look at the new S&W coming out.
With that said, I'd really give some of the striker fired guns a second look. The Kahr PM9 is smaller than a lot of the 380's. I'v use mine as a summer pocket gun for about 5 years. I own a J-frame 642, but can shoot circles around it with the PM9.
The Walther PPS is another one to look at.
If you can go with the idea of an IWB holster then you have a lot of options. The S&W 3913 is an excellent gun. Almost anything you are able to get a proper grip on could be concealed with a good IWB holster.
Littlelebowski
06-05-10, 13:25
The Walther is a great little gun. I'd prefer it over the Kahr. I've owned both the Kahr PM9 and the Walther PPS.
I have not kept up with the new 380s. But if you can find and older Walther PPKS 380 made in West Germany buy it. If you still want a good 380.
Personally I would go with a compact 9mm such as the Walther PPS. But if you don’t want a 9mm then a Makarov might be a good choice. 9X18 Makarov is cheap and readily available.
(At least it is around here)
William B.
06-05-10, 15:02
...would prefer a DA/SA with exposed hammer. Any recommendations?
Browning BDA and Beretta 84 both fit that bill.
John_Wayne777
06-05-10, 15:47
I know I shouldn't post a question re: .380s in this forum, but you guys are as knowledgeable as you are opinionated. My problem is I'm a little guy and can't conceal a 9mm.
I've seen a guy under 5'8" weighing maybe 150 soaking wet pack a 1911 invisibly.
Concealed carry is about gear and manner of dress. With the right carry gear and the right mode of dress you can carry more than you think.
I am 150 pounds and about 5' 9" or less. No problem concealing my fullsize 1911 or M&P 9 even on the waste band. You have to dress with some common sense about you, but it is not that difficult. I do carry a Kahr PM9 in a pants pocket or IWB sometimes. If you want small go Kahr.
when i was a younger man at 5'8" and 145lbs, i had no trouble carrying a 1911 or full size USP45. i think it really comes down to how self-conscious you are about it. i didnt give a rip, and it mattered not, if i printed a bit when bending over to pick up a dropped binky/keys/etc. i've also learned, over the years, how to crouch instead of "bend over" and not look like a curtsying little girl. my wife says i just look like a tired old man with a stiff back (which isn't that far from the truth).
i'm a bit thicker nowadays, averaging 175lbs (all tempered steel ;)), so it's even easier to pack full frame pistols.. my EDC is a glock 17, but i have a baby glock for deep concealment- when wearing that thing, i can actually bend straight over at the waist with nothing but an un-tucked shirt over it, and still only print a little lump that could be anything- phone, knife, pager, etc... but NOT a gun.
if you haven't tried the glock 26 in a forward-cant IWB holster, you really owe it to yourself to. there's no excuse for 380s.
if you go 380 I have a Sig p230 the newer p232 is Both great weapons and the Walther is a plus to
The Walther is a great little gun. I'd prefer it over the Kahr. I've owned both the Kahr PM9 and the Walther PPS.
How long did it take you to get used to the mag release? Seems like a weak link to me, but one that could easily be remedied....
Very handy pistol and with the extended mag in was actually easy to handle for a small pistol.
Did you ever get to shoot one of these much?
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/DSCN0383.jpg
lethal dose
06-05-10, 17:45
Kahr pm 9. Good gun. Love the triggers on kahrs right outta the box... very da revolver like... long and smooth.
Thomas M-4
06-05-10, 17:54
Recommend the Walther the Sig should be GTG also.
Short story on my Walther pps 32 acp . AC date code sometime in 1944. Most likely it was assembled after the war by GI's to take back home ;). Picked it up 5 years ago and it would fail to ignite the primer half the time [ my guess it still had the orginal springs in it :eek:] Picked up a wolf hammer spring and recoil spring ran great :D put about 800 rounds through it before I sold it :( kinda miss it now.
I would also take a look at a 9mm compact auto before the .380 unless you just have to have a .380 :confused:.
Two thoughts
1. Don't over look the Kahr PM 9 that has been mentioned here several times. Great power to size ratio.
2. Don't ever, no never pocket carry w/o a pocket holster. There is never a reason to do so, and as already mentioned, many reasons why you shouldn't.
Skip
+1 on the Kahr PM9, if you must carry a subcompact. I own one for backup/deep concealment carry, and it has been perfect.
However, I'm with John Wayne 777 on this one: I think maybe you (the op) would do well to reconsider your idea about how large a gun you can conceal. Guys smaller than you have concealed good-sized guns. I have a friend who's a little shorter than you, also a bit heavier, but he conceals a full-sized 5" 1911. I think there's no absolute fixed limits that dictate what you can carry based on your height and weight. Instead, I think it's more about your mindset, which involves being determined and committing yourself to the discipline of carrying. I mean, it just plain takes work, it's never going to be easy or convenient IMO to carry a gun. But once you've committed to it, you'll make it work and it will work.
After you decide to carry, IMO the next decision is not about how can I find a comfortable gun to carry based on my size, but instead, it would be good to ask: What is the most reliable carry gun I can find that is (1) Something I can shoot well, and (2) Available in an adequate defensive caliber? Most folks agree around here that the "minimally adequate" caliber is going to be 9mm in a primary carry gun. So bottom line: it comes down to finding something reliable that you can shoot well in 9mm or greater caliber. The 3 most recommended service pistols here in 9mm, as you know if you read many posts here, are the Glock (17 or 19), the S&W M&P (full-size or compact), or an HK P30. These are all great 9mm pistols, you'd do well with any of them. At your size, you can definitely conceal any of these if you decide to, and if you get a good holster and belt and learn good concealment methods. And since you wanted something DA/SA with an exposed hammer, the P30 (if you get v3) fits that exactly.
Anyway, sorry for the soapbox, not to try and push you into a different pistol than you want, just trying to save you a bit of grief and maybe reframe the original question a bit. But it seems helpful at this stage to focus on getting something reliable and that will do the job for you as a defensive weapon, rather than having the size/convenience issues force you into selecting a less than ideal gun as your main CCW. For me, the Kahr PM9 is a wonderful backup gun or deep concealment gun, but there are better guns (more reliable, more accurate, higher capacity) that are more ideal choices for your primary carry option, and you want to carry one of those if you can.
Good luck, whatever you decide to get!
I know I shouldn't post a question re: .380s in this forum, but you guys are as knowledgeable as you are opinionated. My problem is I'm a little guy and can't conceal a 9mm. I've checked the compact Sigs and CZ Rami, but no dice.
I have a J-frame airweight, but can't shoot it worth shit. Perhaps with tons of practice I could improve, but at the cost of a lot of money, range time and a sore hand/wrist. Besides, there's nothing worse than carrying a gun you don't feel confident shooting.
So, I'm looking for a top-notch reliable and accurate .380. Preferably one that has natural pointability, but I'm not sure if that's applicable in such a small gun. I don't know if .380s are mostly striker-fired or not, but would prefer a DA/SA with exposed hammer. Any recommendations?
I recommend looking at the Sig P232. It's about as reliable as a .380acp can get, very accurate, and it has enough of a grip size for comfortable shooting. I've carried one on duty for several years now and it has been a great back up gun. I'm not a big fan of the .380 caliber, but sometimes sacrifices must be made based on what you are authorized to carry and meets your weight and size requirements.
Get a G26 , its a .380 Magnum , that runs .
A compact 9mm would be a better bet , theres plenty that will fit your needs .
gtmtnbiker98
06-05-10, 20:47
Get a G26 , its a .380 Magnum , that runs .
.
I like that description.
I carry a Kahr 9 in road cycling kit. It is doable.
what's your setup for that? i'm assuming by road cycling kit you're talking lycra and a jersey with a rear pocket..
you pocket the gun?
i use a ka-bar tactical fanny pack for my G19 for road and mountain riding. positioned at 6 o clock. works well, but i'm always curious to hear how other armed cyclists do it.
arizonaranchman
06-05-10, 23:11
I agree with the above comments about carrying a real gun if you are going to pack a sidearm. I carry a 1911 .45 in just jeans and a t-shirt with no problem. It's all about how you dress and carry yourself when out in public.
Serious handgun rounds start with the 9mm and go up from there. A 380 is just a little better than nothing.
Now if you do decide you just want a 380 then the Sig would be my choice. Accuracy I wouldn't worry too much about cuz these guns are for 20' or less encounters, so point shooting is what you'll be doing in that kind of situation. You can point shoot and easily nail a man-sized target all day long if you train seriously - combat accuracy is what you strive for - not tack-driving accuracy. I never use sights on my defensive handguns when training - just point shooting. RELIABILITY is what you want above all else - it's gotta feed/fire/eject 100% of the time.
Accuracy I wouldn't worry too much about cuz these guns are for 20' or less encounters, so point shooting is what you'll be doing in that kind of situation.
if you aren't training for DCOM, you won't even hit flesh when the shit hits the fan.
i suggest doing some more reading in the T&T section.
lethal dose
06-05-10, 23:42
Accuracy IS vital. Try "point shooting" with a timer involved. What bkb said is quite a valid point. When it comes down to it and you're under stress...
arizonaranchman
06-06-10, 00:25
if you aren't training for DCOM, you won't even hit flesh when the shit hits the fan.
i suggest doing some more reading in the T&T section.
DCOM? Elaborate on that one - not familiar with that acronym so can't respond!
arizonaranchman
06-06-10, 00:28
Didn't mean accuracy isn't important - I meant to convey that tack-driving accuracy in a gunfight at 10' away is not something you're going to be able to use your sights for. It's all point shooting at 7 yds or less. Beyond that yes the sights and more deliberate shots are in order, but at arms length you blaze 4 or 5 rounds per second into the BG til he goes down. Nobody in a gunfight at 10' remembers using his sights and deliberately aiming the gun. It's all about point shooting at those distances was my point. I should have elaborated a bit more in my message.
This all comes down to TRAINING. It's got to be utterly instinctive to the point where you don't even have to think consciously about what you're doing. It just happens. The bullet goes where your eyes are looking. Untold thousands of rounds in training is how this happens.
Get a trigger job on your J frame. Take it down to a smooth 10lb trigger. And a good pocket holster, Mikas holster or such. I couldnt hit shit with my 16lb Jframe trigger, 10lbs is safe and good enough to hit QBC.
Kahr PM9.
As small as almost all of the .380s on the market, yet fires a service caliber round.
... and buy a pocket holster, if for no other reason it saves your pockets from wear and keeps dust bunnies from crawling into your gun, although not shooting your dick off should be a strong motivator as well.
.... and ditch the condition 2 carry idea. Seriously.
I too recently got rid of my J-frame that I never quite felt confident in. The gun wasn't the issue. I just couldn't shoot it well or at least not shoot it well consistently. It was also rather large in my pocket.
I'm a small guy too at 5'6". I have no issues concealing "real" guns IWB when wearing in the 3-5 o'clock positions but sometimes the situation dictates pocket or more discreet carry and I do switch to a .380acp ... which I swore I would never do.
The only two I've any experience with are the Ruger LCP and the Sig P238. I love the LCP and for what it is it's a great little pocket gun. Although I can shoot it well up close (much better than the J-frame I used to have) it still leaves something to desire ... namely a good trigger and real sights. I recently purchased a Sig P238 and now that I've got a few hundred rounds downrange have committed to it completely over the LCP. In fact, I've sold one of my LCPs and am currently selling the other one. The P238 is all that and more.
I haven't pocket carried it yet as I am waiting for a holster from TT right now but have been AIWB'ing it and LOVE it. I love the Appendix position but due to my short stature can't really carry my G19 or a 1911 Commander comfortably that way. This little gun is PERFECT for that though. Check out this thread I posted recently in another section ....
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=54386
I too agree a larger caliber is ideal for SD but I don't feel under gunned with the P238. Mine has been flawless so far and I can tear up the center of the target with it. I still can't figure out how SIG (or should I say Colt) managed to get this little gun to "feel" like a full sized pistol but they sure enough did.
Get a G26 , its a .380 Magnum , that runs .
A compact 9mm would be a better bet , theres plenty that will fit your needs .
380 mag nice...
i always called it a miniature service pistol. :D
.... and ditch the condition 2 carry idea. Seriously.
Mind elaborating on this point? I know condition one is preferred by serious guys, but I don't practice enough to feel comfortable in Con1. Under stress, it'd be easy to forget to release the safety. I don't see an issue with Con2, if you're comfortable with a DA first pull.
John_Wayne777
06-06-10, 21:46
The best carry condition will depend on the weapon. All weapons cannot be carried cocked and locked. Most cannot, in fact.
First, the .380 round blows. Second, you can hide any size gun if you use quality holsters (like the MS VM2). Third, your carry gun needs to be one that you are willing to take to a pistol class.
So look at the G19, G26, M&P FS and Compact, PPS, HK P7/M8, Kahr, S&W 39 series, Sig 225/P6, etc.
C4
Mind elaborating on this point? I know condition one is preferred by serious guys, but I don't practice enough to feel comfortable in Con1. Under stress, it'd be easy to forget to release the safety. I don't see an issue with Con2, if you're comfortable with a DA first pull.
Brain fart on my part, I was thinking condition 3.
Disregard last transmission, well, except for the Kahr 9mm part.
DCOM? Elaborate on that one - not familiar with that acronym so can't respond!
Dead Center Of Mass
LMT42,
Great advice all around here. I only have a little to add concerning the Kahr line. I purchased my primary Kahr in 1999 after looking hard for a pistol I could carry in a non-permissive enviroment, AKA, I wouldn't get busted with it at work. At the time I had a SIG 228 for my primary. I looked at Walther .380's, SIG 239's & 230's, Glocks and the then fairly new Kahrs. In the end I choose the Kahr P-9.
The P-9 was functionaly the same size as a Walther or SIG .380 and smaller then the 239 or the any of the Glocks. I choose the P-9 over the K-9 due to weight, 15 oz vs. 23.1 oz. With the P-9 you can also carry 8 rnd mags for your backup mags if you use the PN# 045PM9BS base.
http://pro-patria.us/Pistol/PM9p9.gif
Stippled part shown on a PM mag
I have since owned and passed on a custom PM-9(how's it working Trio?) For me I found the PM-9 didn't give me anything I couldn't get out of the P-9. The grip being shorter meant that it was slower on split times then the P-9 and slower to draw. I could use the 6 or 7 round mags, but never felt comfortable with the 8 rounds.
http://pro-patria.us/kahr4.jpg
PM-9 on top of a P-9
Most improtant to me was I found that pocket carry of the PM was not efficent for me. The rear of the slide would always snag on the draw so I dropped that ideal(retaining a much larger Colt Agent for that role). Next came holster selection. IWB's I soon found I didn't like either. I could not secure a good grip easily like I could with the slightly longer P-9 from IWB. As a result I actual found since I carried the PM-9 on the belt to get a good draw, the P-9 was more concealable.
http://pro-patria.us/Pistol/PM9p7.gif
Either will ankle carry with no issue. I have used all three of the pistols below for ankle carry:
http://pro-patria.us/kahr6.jpg
Bottom line for me after using both was that the P-9 presents a better balance of features then any .380 pistol on the market, most compact 9mm's and hands down over the PM-9. Your experiance may differ and there are plenty of more knowledgable shooters on the board then me, just my thoughts on the topic as a Kahr fan.
I am also quite found of my T-9, although if it had been availible as a 8+1 TP-9 at the time I would have purchased the TP-9.
http://pro-patria.us/Pistol/kahrT9.gif
Of my hand gun line up from 1999 only the P-9 and Kimber 1911 remain. If you go the PM-9 route my holsters are in the EE section.
Hi, like you, for a time I tried to shoehorn myself into a .380, reasoning that they are very comfortable to carry, and can be reasonably effective. But in my own personal experience, I haven't found a .380 that is reliable enough for my own peace of mind. I read somewhere that "carrying has to be comforting, not comfortable (?)", and when I took this to heart, I found out I could carry concealed the smallest pistols I can shoot well (a H&K P2000SK and/or S&W 642-2), with a little adjustment in attitude, knowledge of my own anatomy and the best holsters I can find/afford. Now carrying those two pistols feels natural and comfy. So IMHO in parting, my 0.02 cents are: find the smallest pistol in the most effective caliber you can shoot well, and go from there..... Good Luck, Jess
Tomahawk_Ghost
06-07-10, 13:11
Seriously, check out the Kahr PM9. It is smaller than almost all .380s. The Walther PPS is right up there too. I have seriously considered ditching all my other guns and just carrying a PM9.
When I can't carry my Glock 22 comfortably my PM9 goes with me everywhere. I carried it with dress pants this weekend to a wedding.
I prefer the G19 to the G26 for the same reason that DMR preferred the P9 to the PM9. I want to be able to draw and shoot faster and more accurately, rather than feel more comfortable with carrying the smaller gun.
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