View Full Version : With or without thumb safety?
RancidSumo
06-08-10, 20:52
I'm going to be getting a M&P pretty soon but noticed that there is the option to have a safety or not. I'm fairly new to this game so I'm not sure what the benefits of each are. Could someone here point me towards what would be the better choice?
Thanks.
If it is just for personal use, then it will be a preference thing. But if it is a Duty weapon then you might check to see if your dept has any requirements. Me personally, I prefer them without.YMMV
The decision will be yours. I'll give you an example with one of my pistols. My USPC SS 40 has safety. When I carry I keep the safety off. Plus I have a round in the chamber.
Without. I hate the TS on the M&P.
C4
RancidSumo
06-08-10, 21:34
Well that seems to answer that.
I've had 3 M&P's so far, the first one had it, the next two didn't. I would never go back to the TS. YMMV.
I strongly prefer the M&P with a thumb safety--I view it as one of the advantages of the M&P over the Glock.
The M&P thumb safeties appeal to folks accustomed to the 1911 platform (or BHP). Disengaging the safety will come naturally.
They are added insurance in a gun-grab scenario.
Personally, I do not care for them on my M&P's.
SWATcop556
06-08-10, 23:29
All of the TS on the M&Ps that I have tried have been mushy as hell and were a pain in the ass. If they could get the TS to feel like a 1911 and have more of a snap and stay engaged more securely then I would go for one with it. Until then I opt for one without.
SpeedRacer
06-08-10, 23:49
If you're unsure, I'd consider buying the thumb safety model. You can always remove it if you decide to, S&W sells the little pieces to fill the holes in the frame. My daily carry M&P is/was a thumb safety model.
Before...
http://thecurt.com/mp_2.jpg
After...
http://thecurt.com/mpn_c1.jpg
I have three without the TS and an friend has one with the TS.
Personally, I prefer not to have a TS, but my friends gun feels pretty good too. I'd suggest trying both out at the store and get whichever one you are comfortable with.
I'd train to use the TS even when target shooting so it become instinctual.
I strongly prefer the M&P with a thumb safety--I view it as one of the advantages of the M&P over the Glock.
Gotta agree.
If you're unsure, I'd consider buying the thumb safety model. You can always remove it if you decide to, S&W sells the little pieces to fill the holes in the frame. My daily carry M&P is/was a thumb safety model.
Good advice in my opinion. I have the full size 9mm with the thumb safety. I've only shot a few hundred rounds through it thus far and it hasn't been a hindrance, but I am used to shooting my 1911. On the flip side I do like my Glock 19 without a TS as well and am considering removing the TS on the M&P as I think it might help in a oh shit situation. Buy it with and remove it if you don't like it, best of both worlds. ;)
SWATcop1911--It takes just a couple of minutes to make the M&P ambi thumb safety more positive in function, like a 1911. This thread explains how to do the mod: http://mp-pistol.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=26004&st=0&p=260473&#entry260473.
Entirely a personal preference thing. I've primarily trained without a thumb safety so I opted for no thumb safety.
For the past several years I have carried weapons with thumb safeties (USP .45, 1911, and USPc 9mm), but when I got my M&P I decided to go without. It's one less thing to worry about in a high stress situation. Keep that damn finger off the trigger and all is well :), though that shouldn't make a difference if you use a thumb safety or not. If you have excellent muscle memory that compels you to automatically disengage the safety as you draw/shoot, then a thumb safety model may be more at home to you, but most agree it is completely unnecessary.
If you like to introduce people to shooting, new shooters are probably more comfortable learning on a platform with a manual safety.
What Doc said.
I also prefer a safety if I can have one due to the weapon retention advange it gives me.
If you're used to the 1911 then get the TS model. If you're used to a Glock then get the non-TS model.
I prefer a manual safety, and it was one of the main reasons I chose a 9c over a G26. I could live without a safety most of the time, but I'm too squeemish to appendix carry without one.
SWATcop1911--It takes just a couple of minutes to make the M&P ambi thumb safety more positive in function, like a 1911. This thread explains how to do the mod: http://mp-pistol.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=26004&st=0&p=260473&#entry260473.
DocGKR is right..I had a TS on my mid size.45.I did this modifcation, it took about 30 minutes, (I took my time) and the results were indeed much more positive function, like a 1911.. The damning thing is.. As easy as this mod is,Why dosen't S&W do this at the factory?? It could'nt be THAT difficult. Anyway, I ended up removing mine and installing the frame plugs to close up the notches in the frame, like it better without the TS..
You probably just want to pick up both and just see how they fit your hand. Initially I wanted a TS because of the added security. However, after handling both I chose to get my 9c without it. For my hand size/grip the safety was just in the wrong place. I think moving it 1/4-1/2 either forwards or backwards would have made it ok, but in its current location it just didn't work for me. YMMV
Of course if as guys are saying you can remove the TS and plug the hole then maybe you just get it with. You can try both configurations and then adjust accordingly
I ran across this article written by Paul Howe a while back. IMO it is worth reading when considering this decision.
http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/published/the_weapon_safety.PDF
Mr. Howe's website has a "published articles" section full of good articles.
http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/published.htm
RancidSumo
06-09-10, 12:16
If you're used to the 1911 then get the TS model. If you're used to a Glock then get the non-TS model.
I'm used to neither. Up to this point I've been almost exclusively a rifle man.
Beat Trash
06-09-10, 13:11
I work for Department that issues the 9mm M&P without the thumb safety, but mandates a magazine safety.
When we issued 3rd generation 5906's the guns had safeties, but officers were trained to use it as a decocker. The concern was that officers might fail to take the safety off under stress.
With the DAO 5946's, there was no safety, so when we transitioned to the M&P, it was not much of an issue. Also at the time of the transition, the thumb safety models had not been invented. (To give an idea of the time frame, the first three 9mm M&P's to ever leave the factory were sent to us as T&E guns).
We have had two confirmed officer saves during weapon retention struggles, by officers dropping the magazine.
My personally owned M&P's do not have the thumb safety. But I bought them before the safety was an option. At times I wouldn't mind a safety though. Would be nice to have if the gun was going to be left in a night stand, in the tent while sleeping on a camping trip, carried W/O holster in you belt line (I still would use a holster though...) secured in a car when entering a non-gun environment for CCW, ect.
To the OP, I think that it all comes to a training issue and to individual preference. I would try to handle the same model, with and without.
The nice thing about the M&P line is that you do have a choice.
RancidSumo
06-09-10, 13:19
I know that handling them both is probably best but there are a total of two gun stores around here and neither stock M&P. Because of this I almost walked out with a Gen4 G17 the other day but was able to resist the impulse buy (just barely though).
I personally strongly prefer a TS. Just a small bit of added insurance. Train with it and it will become second nature to hit it off when the finger goes to the trigger. If you find you don't like it on when initially carrying it, leave it in the off position. If it is a duty weapon I would also opt for the mag disconnect safety. There are countless documented cases of officers being saved by that device.
Doesn't much matter to me except for use specific function. I often carry off body in a maxpedition briefcase that has a holster built in. For off body applications, I think thumb safety is a good extra measure (not definitive by any means). For on body, I'd be indifferent. It does seem nice to be able to buy the safety model and remove the safety.
RogerinTPA
06-09-10, 15:15
Without, unless department mandated. The only M&P I have with it is the 45. It seems too flimsy and is easily engaged accidentally if you don't ride it like 1911. I much prefer the other 3 without it.
OhioFinance
06-09-10, 21:05
My 45c came with a thumb safety, only because it was a super deal. Easy to remove, it really is just a bar and nothing else. And I believe the frame plugs can be had from Grant as well.
The decision will be yours. I'll give you an example with one of my pistols. My USPC SS 40 has safety. When I carry I keep the safety off. Plus I have a round in the chamber.
:D
Nothing wrong with that, brother. I think I'd do likewise.
I don't want or need a TS but understand why some people would, especially LEO. But I find it gets in the way of my ultra high grip.
ROCKET20_GINSU
06-10-10, 13:24
I would get a thumb safety if any of these conditions apply:
Open carry
Usually shoot a 1911 or condition 1 gun
kids in the vicinity (YMMV here)
AIWB carry
Everything else...no TS
GU
John_Wayne777
06-10-10, 13:33
My seven drachmas:
Thumb safeties on striker-fired weapons with ~ 5 pound triggers are a good thing.
I owned an M&P .45 with the thumb safety. My beef was that it wasn't placed as well as a 1911's thumb safety and tended to sometimes interfere slightly with my ability to hit the slide release. I could have easily adapted with some training...but all my holsters were for non-safetied versions of the M&P. Rather than spend all that money I just stuck with the safety-less versions of the M&P.
Now that I'm carrying in an appendix holster, I would really REALLY like a safety on my M&P. Eventually I'll probably get one.
Mr. Howe's thoughts quoted above are worth careful consideration. People often speak about safety from a perspective of ideal conditions. The real world does not present ideal conditions terribly often. I carry my M&P's with the ~ 5 pound trigger and no manual safety daily without fear, but I have gone out of my way to develop handling habits that minimize the danger of handling them, especially when reholstering. I wouldn't mind a good ergonomically sound safety to go along with the handling practices.
RogerinTPA--As noted on the first page of this thread, it takes just a couple of minutes to make the M&P ambi thumb safety more positive in function, like a 1911. This thread explains how to do the mod: http://mp-pistol.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=26004&st=0&p=260473&#entry260473.
RogerinTPA
06-10-10, 14:45
RogerinTPA--As noted on the first page of this thread, it takes just a couple of minutes to make the M&P ambi thumb safety more positive in function, like a 1911. This thread explains how to do the mod: http://mp-pistol.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=26004&st=0&p=260473&#entry260473.
Thanks Doc.
RancidSumo
06-10-10, 15:55
I would get a thumb safety if any of these conditions apply:
Open carry
Usually shoot a 1911 or condition 1 gun
kids in the vicinity (YMMV here)
AIWB carry
Everything else...no TS
GU
This is something to consider. I will most likely be open carrying all summer. Could you please explain why it is the safety is needed for that?
Because you are at greater risk for someone trying to take away your exposed pistol; a manual safety gives you a touch more time to react and mitigate such an attack...
As I have stated before, I strongly prefer having a manual safety on a pistol that is used for uniformed LE use and other open carry; I have twice seen officers' lives potentially saved when another person gained control of an officer's pistol, but the engaged manual safety prevented the weapon from firing--I don't like to think about the outcome if the pistols involved had been a Glock, Sig, XD, revolver, etc...
RancidSumo
06-10-10, 17:42
To be honest, I hadn't even considered that aspect of it. I think that may have just settled it. I'll get the TS and the plugs in case I don't like it. Thanks for the help everyone.
SWATcop1911--It takes just a couple of minutes to make the M&P ambi thumb safety more positive in function, like a 1911. This thread explains how to do the mod: http://mp-pistol.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=26004&st=0&p=260473&#entry260473.
That's my thread at the M&P forum. The mod is pretty simple. The change in feel is pretty dramatic. The beauty of it is that you can adjust the tension to fit your wants or needs. I have mine set pretty stiff. I was at the range last night and the pistol got passed around the shop by the staff and they were all blown away.
Initially I chose the M&P 45 with the thumb safety because I thought the trigger would require a little work after dry firing it in the funshop. I found that after some dry firing with snap caps and putting some ammo down range that the trigger broke in very nicely. I would hasten to guess that just shooting it a few hundred rounds lightened the pull by 15-20%. Even more noticeable was how much smoother the trigger pull became. I have never owned any firearm that had such a dramatic break in period.
I did eventually send it off to Dan Burwell for his standard trigger job after hearing about so many favorable reviews of his work. I have to say that I agree with all of those positive comments. The trigger feels amazing and breaks as just under 5lbs measured from the middle of the trigger with a Lyman gauge. The reset is also much shorter and more positive as well. It is the closest thing to a good 1911 trigger I have felt on a striker fired pistol. It's silky smooth and breaks like glass.
I have shot it in USPSA limited 10 as well as in local steel matches. I actually seem to shoot better with the 45 than my 9Pro which also has the Burwell standard trigger job.
Another thought....I have seen many who carry Glocks and ARs either fail to operate the safety on the AR (what I consider to be)properly because they shoot Glocks more and subconsciously have it in their minds no need to operate any safety at all. They forget to disengage it on the AR which obviously could be bad when a shot is needed.
Or they do not use the safety on the AR except when they are about to take both hands off of it and "let it hang" (if they engage it at all).
I know many here shoot and train a lot, others not as much. To me, for the average guy (and average cop) both weapons with the same manual of arms will ensure proper use on both systems.
I guess I should explain what my opinion of proper safety use should be. In the "hunt" (moving,searching) stationary and searching for a target or covering an opening or area - Safety on till target located, IDed and decision to fire. Done shooting, off target, completed your scan for secondary threats and/or moving again - Safety back on.
This was a good arguement made for finally getting other sidearms approved for us than just a Glock. Average cop does not practice enough on his time and his dime to get consistent with two operating systems.
I found that after some dry firing with snap caps and putting some ammo down range that the trigger broke in very nicely. I would hasten to guess that just shooting it a few hundred rounds lightened the pull by 15-20%. Even more noticeable was how much smoother the trigger pull became. I have never owned any firearm that had such a dramatic break in period.
And a few hundred more, even better.
My thoughts exactly. After I hit 1,000 rounds, I could not longer see any need to modify my trigger. I'm really digging my M&P45 now.
Sorry, this has obsolutely nothing to do with thumb safeties.
;)
Synistar13
06-10-10, 22:13
I personally liked my TS'less 9L for the longest tiime, until I tried a buddy's 45 w/ TS. It wasn't about having another safety on the gun, but more about using the TS as a shelf to keep my grip as high as possible. As already posted, if you are more accustomed to the 1911-style battery of arms, the TS will feel more natural, and maybe you will use the TS as a shelf for your thumbs to ride on as I commonly do. It may be a crutch methodology, but it is effective.
I am no expert on this matter but this article, specifically the phrase below, by Paul Howe is something I have thought about numerous times when considering my next M&P purchase. (my current daily carry M&P does not have a thumb safety)
"It is my belief that the safety requires you to do one more critical thought out act before taking a human life. It is one final thought process or “buffer” if you will, to ensure you have discriminated thoroughly and effectively and the target you are going to destroy [is] absolutely bad and not an innocent civilian or your buddy coming in from a different angle."
http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/published/the_weapon_safety.PDF
crazymoose
01-25-11, 20:27
All of the TS on the M&Ps that I have tried have been mushy as hell and were a pain in the ass. If they could get the TS to feel like a 1911 and have more of a snap and stay engaged more securely then I would go for one with it. Until then I opt for one without.
Agree 100%. Every gun maker putting thumb safties on their guns should use the 1911 safety as a model. This is where H&K really hit a home run with their HK45, and where S&W really ****ed up on the M&P.
The thumb safeties I have on my M&P's are all crisp and nice. Just like my 1911's. I couldn't be happier and was stoked when they finally got around to putting them on the 9mm's. Got rid of the models that didn't have them.
RancidSumo
01-25-11, 21:59
Hey this is my thread from way back when. Well in case anyone was wondering, I went with the thumb safety model but I took the safety out after ~1000rds. I like it better without one but I wish I had started with that because since I've taken it out, I haven't been able to get my grip sorted out and I always end up keeping the slide from locking back :mad: I need some quality training to sort that shit out.
From my experience, unless you are used to 1911's I'd go without the TS, you won't miss it, at least I don't now that it is gone.
Just to give you more options, here are after-market levers, including without the ambi (pick your side).
http://www.caneandderby.com/weapon-modification-texturing/weapon-accessories/smith-and-wesson-m-p-series/smith-wesson-m-p-profiled-safety-levers.html
I'm sure this could easily be done at home, but if you want someone else to do the work, or you like their lever, go for it. I don't have one, so cannot comment on quality.
Hey this is my thread from way back when. Well in case anyone was wondering, I went with the thumb safety model but I took the safety out after ~1000rds. I like it better without one but I wish I had started with that because since I've taken it out, I haven't been able to get my grip sorted out and I always end up keeping the slide from locking back :mad: I need some quality training to sort that shit out.
From my experience, unless you are used to 1911's I'd go without the TS, you won't miss it, at least I don't now that it is gone.
Yessir. I meant to post Mr. Howe's article back when you first started this thread just for a little food for thought but I forgot about it until I was cleaning out some of my subscribed threads. What was it about the TS that you didn't like? I am about to order another M&P and am looking hard at the TS model even though my current model doesn't have one. The way I look at it is, if I can get some quality trigger time with both guns side by side and decide which one I like better, I will just switch out the one I don't like to match the other one.
RancidSumo
01-25-11, 23:02
Yessir. I meant to post Mr. Howe's article back when you first started this thread just for a little food for thought but I forgot about it until I was cleaning out some of my subscribed threads. What was it about the TS that you didn't like? I am about to order another M&P and am looking hard at the TS model even though my current model doesn't have one. The way I look at it is, if I can get some quality trigger time with both guns side by side and decide which one I like better, I will just switch out the one I don't like to match the other one.
Well it wasn't that I didn't like it so much as I just didn't have any need for it. I never used it so i found that during the irregular times when it somehow got switched on, it threw me for a loop. Since I didn't need it I just saw it as an extra complication that could cause problems for me so I ditched it.
Also, the Atomic Dog holster I have for it didn't work too well with the thumb safety because it pushed the rear of the gun away from the holster (I forgot to tell him I had the TS when I ordered) and I like the holster a lot so I didn't want to get a different one or modify that one. Once again it just came down to being more convenient to replace the safety with the frame plugs.
...I never used it so i found that during the irregular times when it somehow got switched on, it threw me for a loop...
I've never thought about having the safety and not using it. At the risk of sounding like a complete moron I'm going to go ahead and ask these questions. If the TS is not engaged does the gun otherwise function the the same as a non TS model? Do they have all the same internal safeties?
RancidSumo
01-25-11, 23:35
I've never thought about having the safety and not using it. At the risk of sounding like a complete moron I'm going to go ahead and ask these questions. If the TS is not engaged does the gun otherwise function the the same as a non TS model? Do they have all the same internal safeties?
If it isn't engaged then there is no difference between it and a gun without a thumb safety at all.
Metallicus
01-26-11, 13:36
Does anyone have an idea if one were to buy a Non Thumb Safety Model, can one install one later with little headache?
The question boils down to, are the internals essentially the same minus the actual safety and plugs?
You can easily take the thumb safety off of an M&P that came from the factory with one, but it is VERY difficult to add a thumb safety to non-TS model M&P.
I personally STRONGLY prefer the TS model M&P's as noted in several of my posts above...
I am no expert on this matter but this article, specifically the phrase below, by Paul Howe is something I have thought about numerous times when considering my next M&P purchase. (my current daily carry M&P does not have a thumb safety)
"It is my belief that the safety requires you to do one more critical thought out act before taking a human life. It is one final thought process or “buffer” if you will, to ensure you have discriminated thoroughly and effectively and the target you are going to destroy [is] absolutely bad and not an innocent civilian or your buddy coming in from a different angle."
Yet Paul Howe carries a Glock 30...
Alpha Sierra
01-26-11, 17:06
Manual safety = tits on a boar hog
Metallicus
01-26-11, 17:33
I prefer the TS model also, but was curious if I were to buy the model without could I easily switch like I could if I bought the model with.
That answers that.
You can easily take the thumb safety off of an M&P that came from the factory with one, but it is VERY difficult to add a thumb safety to non-TS model M&P.
I personally STRONGLY prefer the TS model M&P's as noted in several of my posts above...
Yet Paul Howe carries a Glock 30...
It seems like I did see that somewhere a while back. All of the test performed in that article were done with long guns so maybe that is what he was referring to and I just generalized it to all firearms in my own head.
It seems like I did see that somewhere a while back. All of the test performed in that article were done with long guns so maybe that is what he was referring to and I just generalized it to all firearms in my own head.
"Friend or foe" determinations should be made before you clear a cover garment for CCW which pretty much negates any "advantage" the safety might give you in ID time.
Myself, I want the fewest possible number of physical manipulations or extraneous thought processes required to make the gun go bang.
The only advantage a 1911 style safety (which locks the slide) gives you is in muzzle strikes. If the safety lever doesn't lock the slide in battery it's useless IMO.
As far as AIWB safety, I prefer hammer fired pistols to striker fired, I cover the hammer with my thumb as I re-holster my H&K P2000 (LEM trigger).
Yet Paul Howe carries a Glock 30...
yeah but the context is different. I'll take the liberty to guess that the Glock is seen by Mr. Howe as a secondary weapon that lives in a holster. from primary experience I can tell you that he most definitely teaches proper safety employment on carbines/rifles.
on the primary, that usually has a trigger that has an even shorter travel than a glock trigger, and hanging out on a sling, and often being pointed at many potential targets, a safety could be seen as absolutely mandatory. so I think that Mr. Howe's point in that article is that if your primary weapon has a safety on it, then use it for all of the reasons he described. if your primary goes down while already engaging a target, you want to transition to your secondary and start shooting back as quickly as possible. in that type of scenario you just need to lay rounds on target and a safety on your secondary could be seen as superfluous.
If you are a LEO and your handgun is the primary, and you are often called to present your gun and cover potential targets, again a safety on the gun can be extremely useful, again for the reasons that Paul Howe described in his article. Not to mention the great advantage it gives you in a weapon retention type of scenario, as Doc Roberts already described.
my CCW is a G19, but I'm not a cop so I'll probably not have to cover suspects on a regular basis, if at all, and I don't open carry so I'm not likely to find myself in a weapons retention situation, although, God forbid I may, and I fully admit that my safetyless G19 would become a liability in a weapon retention scenario. but the G19 is a perfect carry gun for me from all other points of consideration, so the positives trump any negatives, for me. but I'd be wanton to tell someone that wanted a good sweep down safety on their gun that they made a bad choice, provided that they commit to and drill with that system and it becomes second nature to them.
and just for the record before going back to the Glock platform, I used to carry a USPc cocked and locked and felt very comfortable with that arrangement.
I have the thumb safety on both my M&P9 and M&P45. But I have the Bowie LX trigger job on both, which brings the trigger down to a bit over 4lbs, and it has almost no pretravel, so I prefer the extra margin of safety for freak situations like if clothing or gear or something were to somehow find its way into the trigger guard.
willowofwisp
01-26-11, 21:23
You can easily take the thumb safety off of an M&P that came from the factory with one, but it is VERY difficult to add a thumb safety to non-TS model M&P.
I personally STRONGLY prefer the TS model M&P's as noted in several of my posts above...
+1 its easy to have it and remove it, so why not spend the extra 15$
"Friend or foe" determinations should be made before you clear a cover garment for CCW which pretty much negates any "advantage" the safety might give you in ID time.
Myself, I want the fewest possible number of physical manipulations or extraneous thought processes required to make the gun go bang...
yeah but the context is different. I'll take the liberty to guess that the Glock is seen by Mr. Howe as a secondary weapon that lives in a holster. from primary experience I can tell you that he most definitely teaches proper safety employment on carbines/rifles.
on the primary, that usually has a trigger that has an even shorter travel than a glock trigger, and hanging out on a sling, and often being pointed at many potential targets, a safety could be seen as absolutely mandatory. so I think that Mr. Howe's point in that article is that if your primary weapon has a safety on it, then use it for all of the reasons he described. if your primary goes down while already engaging a target, you want to transition to your secondary and start shooting back as quickly as possible. in that type of scenario you just need to lay rounds on target and a safety on your secondary could be seen as superfluous.
If you are a LEO and your handgun is the primary, and you are often called to present your gun and cover potential targets, again a safety on the gun can be extremely useful, again for the reasons that Paul Howe described in his article. Not to mention the great advantage it gives you in a weapon retention type of scenario, as Doc Roberts already described.
my CCW is a G19, but I'm not a cop so I'll probably not have to cover suspects on a regular basis, if at all, and I don't open carry so I'm not likely to find myself in a weapons retention situation, although, God forbid I may, and I fully admit that my safetyless G19 would become a liability in a weapon retention scenario. but the G19 is a perfect carry gun for me from all other points of consideration, so the positives trump any negatives, for me. but I'd be wanton to tell someone that wanted a good sweep down safety on their gun that they made a bad choice, provided that they commit to and drill with that system and it becomes second nature to them.
and just for the record before going back to the Glock platform, I used to carry a USPc cocked and locked and felt very comfortable with that arrangement.
All good points to me gentlemen.
JodyH,
I agree the determination of friend or foe should be made, if at all possible, before the weapon is presented for CCW use. I can think of situations however, where that determination may not be possible before the gun NEEDS to be out. Such as a suspected home invasion scenario or in a situation where a threat seems inevitable but dissolves once a BG or multiple BG's learn that their intended victim has a weapon. It seems to me that in these situations a safety could act as that beneficial "buffer" Mr. Howe referenced.
Son of Vlad Tepes,
I would say you are right about this article being directed at a primary weapon instead of a secondary. Although I certainly may be wrong, I can see (as mentioned above) some scenarios where the philosophy could be crossed over to handguns as well. In the end, like with most things, I think the part of your post in bold above is what makes a system great, or makes it fail miserably.
One of the reasons why I am considering a TS model of M&P is because I am thinking about giving AIWB a try. I cannot however, bring myself to put a gun in my pants with the muzzle pointed at my baby maker (and/or femoral artery) without having some kind of external safety. If I decide I want to carry that way, I would like for all of my carry guns to be set up the same way.
One of the reasons why I am considering a TS model of M&P is because I am thinking about giving AIWB a try. I cannot however, bring myself to put a gun in my pants with the muzzle pointed at my baby maker (and/or femoral artery) without having some kind of external safety. If I decide I want to carry that way, I would like for all of my carry guns to be set up the same way.
For AIWB I like a hammer fired pistol, either DA or LEM.
I ride the hammer with my thumb as I re-holster.
A safety isn't everything it's cracked up to be. If you neglect to engage it before holstering you can still have a ND into the femoral.
It's hard to have a ND when your thumb is keeping the hammer from moving back. If the hammer can't cock, it can't drop.
That's the big reason I went H&K over Glock once I started carrying AIWB.
I started out using AIWB carry nearly 25 years ago when faced with the need to carry a service pistol (at various times in my military career a 1911, M9, or Sig P226/228) while wearing the Navy Service Dress Blue uniform--since the jacket is a double breasted type that could not be left unbuttoned, AIWB was the only option to allow easy access to the pistol. It also worked well with BDU/DCU uniforms when not wanting to appear armed, for example on MEDCAP's.
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7355&filename=GKR%20AIWB%201911%20DCU.jpg
Lou Alessi made us some holsters (APX-IWB), as shown in the enclosed photo, with a slight reverse FBI cant that worked very well for this option--the only potential downside of the Alessi holster was the plastic "Talon" clip that secured it to the belt--although to be honest none ever broke or caused any problems for us.
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7353&filename=Alessi%20APX-IWB.jpg
Likewise I have used AIWB for over a decade in the LE and civilian world, to carry 1911's, G19's, and most recently M&P45's w/ambi-safeties. During the last Independence Day celebration, a couple of friends from the PD were teasing me about my uncharacteristically running around unarmed in just a hippie-cam T-shirt and shorts, as shown in the attached photo--not realizing I was carrying a 5" 1911 AIWB in an Alessi holster, along with a couple of extra mags...
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7354&filename=GKR%20AIWB%201911.JPG
Note that most of the pistols I have carried AIWB--1911's, G19's, and M&P's are either striker fired or cocked and locked. There will be NO problems if appropriate care and prudence is exercised while slowly re-holstering along with simultaneously tilting the holster AWAY from all critical anatomic areas that could be perforated or damage if the pistol inadvertently discharges. Much like other endeavors requiring error free performance such as flying, deep scuba diving, rock climbing, and performing surgery--DON'T MAKE A MISTAKE doing this!
The M&P thumb safeties appeal to folks accustomed to the 1911 platform (or BHP). Disengaging the safety will come naturally.
They are added insurance in a gun-grab scenario.
Personally, I do not care for them on my M&P's.
Interesting - I'm accustomed to the BHP and it *does* come naturally to disengage the safety... but I think I much prefer the M&Ps without safeties. I carried a 9c without a safety for a bit, then switched to a 9c with TS (seemed like a good idea, considering my background with the BHP), but hated it. I just installed one of the Cane and Derby profiled safeties to see if reducing those huge flat paddles might improve the feel, and so far it's been an interesting modification. It doesnt help too much with the mush factor of the safety but it does feel better overall than the factory safety - I believe they do some minor reprofiling on the safety notch as well as the reprofiling of the levers themselves. Mine looked a bit different than my original safety unit... I'd email the company for specifics though, as I'm speculating on this one.
Anyway, time will tell, and (of course) YMMV.
Ultimately though (to address the OP), I think it really is a personal decision. If you can, try both and see what feels better. Your background, training, etc, will inevitably dictate what'll feel right to you.
My understanding, based on a conversation with a sales rep, is that Cane & Derby generally does not modify the notch without the gun that the safety will be installed on in hand. They will do some very minor work if you request it, but that's it and it's most likely not going to make much of a difference. The concern is that it's too easy to screw it up without having the gun to test fit the safety to as they go.
I ordered one of their safety levers. The service was fantastic and the lever looks nice, but I haven't installed it yet so I can't comment on how it feels. I will be reworking the notch before I do install the safety lever, because the stock safety's engagement does leave a lot to be desired, in my opinion.
Erik,
Before you go changing the profile of the safety notches test fit the lever itself.
I have a newer production 9c with a thumb safety (mid 2009 production) and the safety in stock format was pretty darned positive.
Ive also had a bunch of M&P's come through my hands with safeties and its pretty easy to spot early production guns via the absolutely horrid feel of the safety. The later models are much improved over the originals so modification may not be necessary.
Thanks for the heads up. I'll check it out first.
RancidSumo
01-28-11, 00:10
Erik,
Before you go changing the profile of the safety notches test fit the lever itself.
I have a newer production 9c with a thumb safety (mid 2009 production) and the safety in stock format was pretty darned positive.
Ive also had a bunch of M&P's come through my hands with safeties and its pretty easy to spot early production guns via the absolutely horrid feel of the safety. The later models are much improved over the originals so modification may not be necessary.
For the record, my safety was pretty positive before I removed it. I purchased the gun this last June.
John_Wayne777
01-28-11, 06:48
Hey this is my thread from way back when. Well in case anyone was wondering, I went with the thumb safety model but I took the safety out after ~1000rds. I like it better without one but I wish I had started with that because since I've taken it out, I haven't been able to get my grip sorted out and I always end up keeping the slide from locking back :mad: I need some quality training to sort that shit out.
From my experience, unless you are used to 1911's I'd go without the TS, you won't miss it, at least I don't now that it is gone.
Take the time to work with the grip panels and see which one places the slide release in the natural gap between your strong thumb and the heel of your weak thumb. On weapons that come with interchangeable backstraps it's crucial to spend time working with the gun dry and on the range to find the grip option that works best for you...not necessarily the one that "feels" best.
Once you think you have that figured out at home, go to the range (bringing the other grip panels just in case) and shoot a few hundred rounds with only 2 or 3 rounds in the magazine. See if you still have failures to lock on empty.
Hey this is my thread from way back when. Well in case anyone was wondering, I went with the thumb safety model but I took the safety out after ~1000rds. I like it better without one but I wish I had started with that because since I've taken it out, I haven't been able to get my grip sorted out and I always end up keeping the slide from locking back :mad: I need some quality training to sort that shit out.
From my experience, unless you are used to 1911's I'd go without the TS, you won't miss it, at least I don't now that it is gone.
I'm having a similar issue right now with my M&P 45 not locking back on an empty mag sometimes, due to my support hand making contact with the slide lock/release. Prior to removing the TS I didn't really have this problem. I find though, that I can achieve a much better grip on the gun with the TS removed. I do have some pretty large hands, which I think is contributing to the problem. And I do have the Largest back strap installed. Were you able to find a solution?
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