God I miss the military.

[SW-Shooter]

After watching Spike's "U.S. Navy Pirate hunters", I miss it even more. The little things like drawing your weapons from the arms room, knowing your going to do what you've spent countless months training on.

But on the other hand, I also like seeing my family every day.

I guess I'm just being a little nostalgic. Anyone else?

[ThirdWatcher]

I guess I'm just being a little nostalgic.

After I visit one of the Warrior Princesses I start missing the Army too (especially when I see how good they have it compared to how we had it 'back in the day').

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

Your mind is not letting you remeber the bad stuff. Like sleeping in a ditch filled with human shit for 2 weeks and MOP gear in 140+ heat.

I think of that when I start missing it.

[QuietShootr]

Your mind is not letting you remeber the bad stuff. Like sleeping in a ditch filled with human shit for 2 weeks and MOP gear in 140+ heat.

I think of that when I start missing it.

This, plus working for a retard who outranks you only by virtue of social programs instead of competency.

[ThirdWatcher]

This, plus working for a retard who outranks you only by virtue of social programs instead of competency.

You just described a Second Lieutenant.

[QuietShootr]

You just described a Second Lieutenant.

Mm. Not what I meant, but okay.

[variablebinary]

This, plus working for a retard who outranks you only by virtue of social programs instead of competency.

Care to elaborate...in detail?

And it's easy to miss military life. Between the long periods of doing nothing you get to do awesome stuff even Bill Gates cant do.

It's hard to let it go and return to civilian life.

[SW-Shooter]

You just described a Second Lieutenant.


Yep, I remember butter bars trying to tell seasoned NCO's how to set up a perimeter defense and how to run the QRF.

[GermanSynergy]

Yep, I remember butter bars trying to tell seasoned NCO's how to set up a perimeter defense and how to run the QRF.

Sounds like Army MP 2nd Louies LOL.... (J/K)

I miss alot of the great folks that I served with. Many of my good friends I stay in touch with and many of them even live in the Northern Virginia area- so seeing them a few times a year is easy.

[Buck]

After watching Spike's "U.S. Navy Pirate hunters", I miss it even more. The little things like drawing your weapons from the arms room, knowing your going to do what you've spent countless months training on.

But on the other hand, I also like seeing my family every day.

I guess I'm just being a little nostalgic. Anyone else?

On Thursday, get a mop, bucket, green monster, sponge, roll of paper towels, and some pine oil and go field day your head, just for old times sake... That will help those feelings pass...

B

[thopkins22]

:cool::cool::cool:

[Caeser25]

Don't forget to do pmcs every morning on your motor vehicle and at the end of the day, give the misses a checklist, you can't go anywhere until she signs off on it. Althought really it would be more like everybody on your block and some days you're waiting on your neighbors from 19:00 until 23:00 to leave the motorpool :mad:

[500grains]

:eek::eek::eek:

[Belmont31R]

I miss the camaraderie and certain aspects of it.



The rest Im perfectly fine living without.

[Gutshot John]

:cool::cool::cool:

Actually I'd bet he's talking about any number of inept "leaders" that end up in the military.

You can't serve in the mil and not be subjected to chickenshit. The Peter Principle applies, except that the mil will often promote someone well beyond their highest level of competence.

[Smuckatelli]

The chickenshit is out here in the civilian world also.

The thing that I miss is the look in the younger Marines eyes when they 'get' what you are teaching them. Watching them execute a plan without micro-managing. Hearing it through the grapevine that your problem child got drunk and beat the shit out of someone because they didn't show enough respect towards you.

There is always going to be someone higher in the food chain that doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.....military or civilian. It's all about how you lead your subordinates and how they run with the ball that makes it all worth it.

You can have two PFCs in a room, one of them is senior to the other....there is always an opportunity to lead/teach/mentor.

That doesn't happen to much in the 1st Civ Div.

[variablebinary]

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Buck]

Lets stay on topic...

B

PS: ;););)

[ThirdWatcher]

Sounds like Army MP 2nd Louies LOL.... (J/K)

Damn, you're good!!!:D

My Army experience IS limited to the MPC. One of the Warrior Princesses is in the JAG Corps and the other is in the Medical Corps (admittedly neither outfit is truly representative of the Army, but at least they both qualified Expert last time. ;)) All those days at the range when they were growing up really paid off.

[Gutshot John]

The chickenshit is out here in the civilian world also.

Indeed and there are certainly excellent leaders in the military (usually NCOs) but in the civilian world you don't end up standing tall when you tell your boss off because of chickenshit. In the civilian world you might get passed over for a promotion, but you can always get a new job. In the mil if your leadership is inept (and heaven forbid threatened by subordinates that are smarter) your career can certainly suffer.


You can have two PFCs in a room, one of them is senior to the other....there is always an opportunity to lead/teach/mentor.

That doesn't happen to much in the 1st Civ Div.

Not true at all.

There are certainly parts of the mil that I loved and enjoyed but let's not pretend that it was idyllic. If it were most people would stay in...most people get out. Of those that stay in there is a sizable percentage that stay because they couldn't do any better in the civilian world. That's not to say that's everyone, or even most, only that it is a significant percentage.

[QuietShootr]

Care to elaborate...in detail?



Nope.:)

[Smuckatelli]

Not true at all.



I'm not sure what you mean by that; are you referencing that there is always an opportunity to lead or that it doesn't happen too often in the civilian world?




There are certainly parts of the mil that I loved and enjoyed but let's not pretend that it was idyllic. If it were most people would stay in...most people get out.



The tread is about missing the military, I wasn't pretending it to be idyllic.....just giving a subjective assessment of what I miss, no facts where being presented nor was I trying to recruit someone.




Of those that stay in there is a sizable percentage that stay because they couldn't do any better in the civilian world. That's not to say that's everyone, or even most, only that it is a significant percentage.



:rolleyes:

You may have had a different experience than I did, either way that is one hell of a subjective statement. I saw a few that fit the thought of "couldn't do any better in the civilian world." I wouldn't go as far as saying a sizable percentage.

It all is subjective, opinionated, and speculation to an extent. Each person's experience was different. I had some good experiences in the military, I do miss many aspects of it, the good and the bad.

[dookie1481]

I've gotta agree with GSJ on this one. I usually get a laugh when I add old buddies on facebook and see which ones are wearing rockers.

Jay

[Gutshot John]

I'm not sure what you mean by that; are you referencing that there is always an opportunity to lead or that it doesn't happen too often in the civilian world?

You kind of missed the point.

Leadership opportunities abound in the civilian world if you choose to look for them...unless you only think real leadership is about combat.

Am I a better leader for having served? Yes but I've gotten far more opportunities to take real responsibility in my civilian life.



The tread is about missing the military, I wasn't pretending it to be idyllic.....just giving a subjective assessment of what I miss, no facts where being presented nor was I trying to recruit someone.

Fair enough.



You may have had a different experience than I did, either way that is one hell of a subjective statement. I saw a few that fit the thought of "couldn't do any better in the civilian world." I wouldn't go as far as saying a sizable percentage.

A sizable percentage is different than saying a majority. Statistically 10% would be a sizable percentage. I think that's probably a conservative estimate. In my experience it was probably higher.


It all is subjective, opinionated, and speculation to an extent. Each person's experience was different. I had some good experiences in the military, I do miss many aspects of it, the good and the bad.

Fair enough.

[SW-Shooter]

I guess I'm some sort of locked thread magnet, it seems that my topics get derailed by off topic attacks or discussion and then "bam" they get locked.

Please keep this in the spirit of either missing the military or not, it'll keep the mods and staff from terminating this one.

Thank you.

[Caeser25]

The chickenshit is out here in the civilian world also.





Actually I'd bet he's talking about any number of inept "leaders" that end up in the military.

You can't serve in the mil and not be subjected to chickenshit. The Peter Principle applies, except that the mil will often promote someone well beyond their highest level of competence.


It's actually worse at the company I work for than I ever seen it in the military.

[Abraxas]

On Thursday, get a mop, bucket, green monster, sponge, roll of paper towels, and some pine oil and go field day your head, just for old times sake... That will help those feelings pass...

B

Bet I can guess what branch you were in;)

[Smuckatelli]

Bet I can guess what branch you were in;)

He can't post right now.......Its Thursday, he's conducting a field day.:D

[variablebinary]

It's actually worse at the company I work for than I ever seen it in the military.

Same. Some of the rotten, unethical shit I have seen in civilian companies just would not fly in the military.

I've got 15 years professional experience with high profile companies, and was a VP for 4 years; they were all filled with pansy ass, scummy, passive aggressive, effeminate yuppie shit bags that deserved to be punched in the face and have their balls stomped

[Abraxas]

He can't post right now.......Its Thursday, he's conducting a field day.:D

Well, don't forget, sometimes it can take a while to get inspected:D

[SeriousStudent]

I miss sitting out on the deck of an LHA at night on a WestPac, playing poker on a poncho liner and smoking Cuban cigars.

I miss eluding the police on Magsaysay Blvd, and trying to make it back across the bridge without getting busted.

I miss sharing a last canteen of water with a fellow Lance Coolie at the Stumps.

I miss the honesty of my fellow grunts.

I miss some of the most insightful, skilled and profane leadership I have ever had the priviledge to serve with.

I miss my friends. I don't miss much else.

[Gutshot John]

Same. Some of the rotten, unethical shit I have seen in civilian companies just would not fly in the military.

I've seen military officers and NCOs steal from their subordinates. I've seen officers and NCOs sleep with spouses of their subordinates. More significantly I've seen senior officers cover for them when the behavior was brought to their attention. I've never seen either behavior in the civilian world though I'm sure it happens.

The military is a subset of the human race. No more nor less ethical than anyone else. Does the military tend to produce people who view "duty" as more significant than civilians? Probably, but I've seen a lot of military guys talk about "duty" and then fallen short. I loved the guys I served with and am still friends (talk to them regularly) with the overwhelming majority of them almost 15 years later.

There are as many unethical (not to mention immoral) assholes in the military as there are in the civilian world.

[Army Chief]

There are as many unethical (not to mention immoral) assholes in the military as there are in the civilian world.

I think the difference lies with the level of accountability and the consequences involved. I can't speak for the other services, but having just come out of a capacity where I dealt with separations, eliminations and misconduct cases on a daily basis, I can tell you that Army officers are not routinely being given a "pass" for such behavior. Field commanders have very little tolerance for ethical/moral transgressions, even in time of war. Get caught, and you will be shunned, shamed and separated so fast it will make your head spin.

AC

[Gutshot John]

I can tell you that Army officers are not routinely being given a "pass" for such behavior.

I would hope getting a pass is not routine. The effect on unit morale was devastating. However I have seen it happen more frequently for officers.

Yes the consequences are probably far more severe but even if not given a pass you would seem to be agreeing that such behavior occurs, albeit rarely?

Please understand I'm not trashing the military as I'm proud of my experience but I'm not a pollyanna either.

[Buck]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRPo-OH2lcQ&feature=related

Ah the good old days... :cool:

B

[Belmont31R]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRPo-OH2lcQ&feature=related

Ah the good old days... :cool:

B



Ha..


One of my buddies made this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvqby7uTqQI

[kry226]

I miss sitting out on the deck of an LHA at night on a WestPac, playing poker on a poncho liner and smoking Cuban cigars.

I miss eluding the police on Magsaysay Blvd, and trying to make it back across the bridge without getting busted.

I miss sharing a last canteen of water with a fellow Lance Coolie at the Stumps.

I miss the honesty of my fellow grunts.

I miss some of the most insightful, skilled and profane leadership I have ever had the privilege to serve with.

I miss my friends. I don't miss much else.

This has been my experience as well. While I have had poor leaders before (that I still learned a great deal from), by-and-large, the leadership I have experienced has been nothing short of stellar. I have seen the absolute best this country has to offer. Without question.


I would hope getting a pass is not routine. The effect on unit morale was devastating. However I have seen it happen more frequently for officers.
Yes the consequences are probably far more severe but even if not given a pass you would seem to be agreeing that such behavior occurs, albeit rarely?

Please understand I'm not trashing the military as I'm proud of my experience but I'm not a pollyanna either.

Officers do misbehave, but it is probably a rarer case, but there are also fewer officers to begin with. When they do, the visual repercussions are not the same as for enlisted. Officers eat their own young and annihilate junior officers for not cutting the mustard. The difference is that it is done relatively quietly versus the SPC or SSG who is hung out to dry and made an example of. Most enlisted don't understand this and complain that "nothing happened to LT Snuffy," when in all actuality, LT Snuffy is a dead man walking and is just biding his time until his contract is up.

Enlisted can usually survive hits like DUI, or even a hot urinalysis. While I know there has been certain exceptions over the years, this level of infraction for an officer is an immediate career killer.

This is as it should be.

[Army Chief]

I would hope getting a pass is not routine. The effect on unit morale was devastating. However I have seen it happen more frequently for officers.

Yes the consequences are probably far more severe but even if not given a pass you would seem to be agreeing that such behavior occurs, albeit rarely?

Please understand I'm not trashing the military as I'm proud of my experience but I'm not a pollyanna either.

Gutshot John, you and I see eye-to-eye on just about every issue of consequence that has ever seen the light of day in this place, so I certainly understand where you're coming from. Misconduct is by no means unique to any one demographic, and it affects the officer corps just as surely as any other uniformed cohort. Perhaps the difference is that we rightly expect more from our leaders, so we tend hold them to a higher standard. This is, I think, as it should be.

In cases where a charge is based largely upon innuendo or suspicion, the effect is terminal, but usually not immediate. It is dealt with quietly, and usually well-away from the sight line of the troops. Lieutenant So-and-so is shuffled away from his platoon and sent (without fanfare or explanation) to be the Assistant to the Sub-Vice Alternate Deputy S-2 up in the Brigade HQ, and invariably, the troops interpret this as getting over. In reality, such an officer is, as kry226 so capably put it, a "dead man walking." Officers take stock of each other according to the gold standards of credibility and reputation, and even an unfounded accusation can prove devastating to both. It is, in many ways, an astonishingly merciless environment.

Of course, when the "reasonable doubt" standard can be met, the consequences are generally much more severe and usually immediate. In these cases, an involuntary discharge is the best outcome for which the transgressor can hope, and often, he is dealt a much harsher blow. Again, though, since justice tends to be dispensed from behind a closed door, it is common for the rank-and-file to presume that the offender has gotten over lightly.

Has any of this gotten better or worse over time? Good question, but my sense is that field commanders have actually grown far less tolerant of misconduct and/or carrying dead weight in the modern era, given the fact that they have more serious matters to attend to, not the least of which are conducting combat operations and dealing with casualties. Seven years of war have served to put many things into perspective, and carrying the weak or deficient isn't something that we have a lot of time -- or stomach -- for these days.

AC

[RogerinTPA]

Gutshot John, you and I see eye-to-eye on just about every issue of consequence that has ever seen the light of day in this place, so I certainly understand where you're coming from. Misconduct is by no means unique to any one demographic, and it affects the officer corps just as surely as any other uniformed cohort. Perhaps the difference is that we rightly expect more from our leaders, so we tend hold them to a higher standard. This is, I think, as it should be.

In cases where a charge is based largely upon innuendo or suspicion, the effect is terminal, but usually not immediate. It is dealt with quietly, and usually well-away from the sight line of the troops. Lieutenant So-and-so is shuffled away from his platoon and sent (without fanfare or explanation) to be the Assistant to the Sub-Vice Alternate Deputy S-2 up in the Brigade HQ, and invariably, the troops interpret this as getting over. In reality, such an officer is, as kry226 so capably put it, a "dead man walking." Officers take stock of each other according to the gold standards of credibility and reputation, and even an unfounded accusation can prove devastating to both. It is, in many ways, an astonishingly merciless environment.

Of course, when the "reasonable doubt" standard can be met, the consequences are generally much more severe and usually immediate. In these cases, an involuntary discharge is the best outcome for which the transgressor can hope, and often, he is dealt a much harsher blow. Again, though, since justice tends to be dispensed from behind a closed door, it is common for the rank-and-file to presume that the offender has gotten over lightly.

Has any of this gotten better or worse over time? Good question, but my sense is that field commanders have actually grown far less tolerant of misconduct and/or carrying dead weight in the modern era, given the fact that they have more serious matters to attend to, not the least of which are conducting combat operations and dealing with casualties. Seven years of war have served to put many things into perspective, and carrying the weak or deficient isn't something that we have a lot of time -- or stomach -- for these days.

AC

AC, I agree. When I was in, even the hint of impropriety was enough to end your career as an officer. I have personally sent morally bankrupt LTs, Captains and Senior NCOs, to staff positions or other nonessential billets to get rid of them, while processing the paper work to end there careers. I had plenty of opportunity to be inappropriate with my junior officers, warrants, enlisted's and flight students wives, when they came on to me at a social gathering, the gym or at the mall, including a couple of my commanders wives, but I didn't dare go there. For some, leading by example and providing competent leadership, is still a much sought after commodity. They should be relieved and shown the door, whenever they're failings are discovered.

[GermanSynergy]

I think the difference lies with the level of accountability and the consequences involved. I can't speak for the other services, but having just come out of a capacity where I dealt with separations, eliminations and misconduct cases on a daily basis, I can tell you that Army officers are not routinely being given a "pass" for such behavior. Field commanders have very little tolerance for ethical/moral transgressions, even in time of war. Get caught, and you will be shunned, shamed and separated so fast it will make your head spin.

AC

I agree, Sir. While in the Army, I witnessed a case where a Lieutenant lied about having attended Airborne school, and wear unauthorized awards. The 1SG and CO became aware and he was gone in a flash.

While at Hood, we had a BN CSM tell us in no uncertain terms that if we (MP's) did not hold ourselves to the highest standards that he would "cut sling load" on us. He was true to his word, separating NCO's and soldiers on the overweight program, troublemakers and malcontents.

Officers in line units were expected to lead by example, and generally speaking we had outstanding officers and NCO's in the 720th.

[variablebinary]

Enlisted can usually survive hits like DUI, or even a hot urinalysis. While I know there has been certain exceptions over the years, this level of infraction for an officer is an immediate career killer.



Indeed. It may not always be for enlisted or public consumption, but when officers get a spanking for being naughty, it tends to be harsh as hell.

They are held to a higher standard.

[Gutshot John]

AC thanks for understanding, coming from you that is high praise. Genuinely there are leaders that hold themselves to a higher standard and indeed inspire their men to meet that standard as well. That is true leadership.

First I don't think "hints" of impropriety should be grounds for anything. There is either evidence or not. If there is no evidence than there is no evidence. Officers that fall under a cloud may be transferred or sent to Timbuctu but that isn't punishment. It's simply killing time. In terms of the officers I witnessed I know at least one (ring-knocker) is still serving.

Second it was pointed out to me that military justice differs from civilian justice in that it isn't about fairness for the individual but "justice" for the chain of command. In other words the chain of command must see that justice has been meted out lest discipline suffer. If officers are held to a higher standard than that justice should indeed be public to everyone just as it would be for an enlisted. If it's not for "public or enlisted consumption" than it isn't "justice."

Enlisted absolutely need to see that their leadership is held to a far higher standard when there is a genuine transgression.

To be fair the problems I observed were in a single, stateside (arty) battalion and perhaps that colored my perspective but was only an anomaly. In talking to friends and colleagues it seems that it did happen elsewhere as well.

Even without those extreme cases the absolute power that a senior leader had over someone they didn't like or were threatened by and could be capricious and indeed "chickenshit." There was a reason even good sailors and marines called it "the suck." I'm pretty sure that hasn't changed.

I'm genuinely glad that most of you served in units that subscribed to higher standards than I witnessed what I did but I don't think it's unfair to acknowledge that it wasn't always band of brothers.

[SeriousStudent]

If I may be so bold as to extend Army Chief's and Roger's remarks?

Something I experienced first hand, was the fact that higher officers and very senior enlisted must often, well, conceal exactly what may happen. I can explain.

Many moons ago, I spent three months assigned as the assistant driver/protective detail for a three-star officer. At first, I considered it a sentence. The individual I replaced had been removed for "not keeping his piehole shut."

But the LtGen in question treated my assignment as a training opportunity. He understood one of his roles was to groom young Marines, be they Lt's or LCpl's.

I frequently heard him and his staff discussing highly delicate matters, regarding officers and senior enlisted Marines. If I ran to the E-club, and spread the latest gossip, I would have been lucky to be shipped to Adak.

Part of my job was to protect the man's privacy and reputation, as well as his life. So whenever anyone asked: "The general is fine." Or when they questioned "Boy, I bet he tore the hide off Captain so and so", the answer was "I'm sure the general handled it."

The man had to have the ability to operate, without everything being second-guessed or kibbitz'd. That does not always make for transparency.

Gutshot John, it sounds like you were unfortunate enough to have a chain of command that did not understand loyalty works both up and down the food chain. For that, I am genuinely sorry. And if you were an FMF Doc in a arty battery, it makes me very damn pissed off. Marines owe their Corpsmen so very, very much. Woe be unto the man that ever raised a hand against the Doc in my platoon. :mad:

So I do really hope there was better discipline in your unit, even if you did not get to witness it. I meant what I said about the profane leadership. The SgtMaj that we had could blister paint at 50 feet, and the LtGen could peel hide off a mule at further distances than that. :eek:

Thank you very much for your service, sir. I would be so very happy to buy you a tasty beverage someday, and raise a glass with you.

[Gutshot John]

Gutshot John, it sounds like you were unfortunate enough to have a chain of command that did not understand loyalty works both up and down the food chain. For that, I am genuinely sorry. And if you were an FMF Doc in a arty battery, it makes me very damn pissed off. Marines owe their Corpsmen so very, very much. Woe be unto the man that ever raised a hand against the Doc in my platoon. :mad:

Don't feel too bad for me...it wasn't all bad and it was another time before the current wars (Clintoon era) so that probably changes things a bit. Chickenshit existed everywhere, it's simply part of the landscape and it helps teach you how to keep your mouth shut.

That Arty battalion may have had issues. The other FMF (infantry) overseas unit I served with didn't really have those systemic morale problems but then again it was Camp Schwab so not much to do.

Like I said, I'm glad and proud I served, made some great friends and got to do some fun stuff but after 4 I was done and I don't really look back on it as the best time of my life.

[SeriousStudent]

Ah, Camp Schwab.... And just how many times did you swim out to that little island out in Orawan for PT? And party like a rock star at Club Chivas in Kinville? :D

I spent some time at Schwab, Hansen, NTA and a brief stint at Henoko. Many, many moons ago.

Good times. The further away from the flag pole, the happier I got. :D

[cop1211]

I sure miss it. If I had to do all over again knowing what I know now, I would have stayed in.

I tried to get back in, in 2002 just after 9-11. HQ Marine Corps, said no, they didnt think I could afford to take care of a wife and 3 kids having to go back in as a Lcpl. (got out as a Cpl.)

Guess they dont know how much a cop gets paid:D.

[Gutshot John]

Ah, Camp Schwab.... And just how many times did you swim out to that little island out in Orawan for PT? And party like a rock star at Club Chivas in Kinville? :D

Heh...I remember it well. Used to run up by Recon Point.


I spent some time at Schwab, Hansen, NTA and a brief stint at Henoko. Many, many moons ago.Good times. The further away from the flag pole, the happier I got. :D

I spent some time at NTA as an instructor before going back down to Schwab. That endurance course was an ass-kicker, especially that hill at the end.

All things considered I would have extended for another year rather than going to that arty battalion.

[Smuckatelli]

Gunshot John....there has to be something that you miss :)

I spent 21 years in the gunclub, working with multiple services, multiple countries; I got screwed over many a time, in the long run it all equaled out. Some may think that my original post was to cover up the bad side of the military, that wasn't my intent. I could fill a thread with bad things that happened. Overall I wouldn't trade a minute...even getting passed over for promotion, there was a certain freedom in that that is hard to understand.

Many Officers & Senior Enlisted get shitcanned, I wasn't aware of this until I became a senior enlisted bubba. The senior enlisted get shitcanned for things like failing a course...yes, I've seen that happen. The worst example of it was when I went to the mountain leaders course, there was a SSgt that couldn't construct an A frame in under 12 minutes; he could scale a cliff in record time but he couldn't construct an A frame to get the crew served weapons up the cliff. At that time you had a service limit for SSgts at 16 years. The guy was forced out.

As was mentioned here, there are many instances of officers and senior enlisted being forced out, this isn't something that is usually advertised.....except of course if it involves integrity. Here's a good example:

Thirteen junior officers were kicked out of the Marine Corps last week after officials uncovered widespread cheating on a land navigation exam.

All 13 were students at The Basic School aboard Marine Corps Base Quantico, Va., a six-month training course for newly commissioned officers. Eight men — including two former football players from the Naval Academy — and five women were administratively discharged May 20 for allegedly using cheat sheets last fall to help them locate boxes stashed in the woods aboard the base, Marine officials said. Two of the 13 officers were prior enlisted Marines.
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2010/05/marine_cheating_052510w/

[SeriousStudent]

...................
I spent some time at NTA as an instructor before going back down to Schwab. That endurance course was an ass-kicker, especially that hill at the end.

................

But it was fun! And at the end, you got to take a cold shower from a firehose to blast off all the mud!

I was up there one year when it snowed. Pretty neat, seeing snow on the Rock.

I would be willing to bet we got kicked out of the same bars on Gate 2 Street as well. :D

[Smuckatelli]

Heh...I remember it well. Used to run up by Recon Point.



I spent some time at NTA as an instructor before going back down to Schwab. That endurance course was an ass-kicker, especially that hill at the end.

All things considered I would have extended for another year rather than going to that arty battalion.

If you were there (Schwab & NTA) between Jan 86 and Jun 90, there is a good chance that you know me by sight. I was the Plt Sgt to 4th Mar Reg Snipers.

I was also there with 1/6 in 83 and 85.

Any of you guys know Capt G.H. Bristol?

[Gutshot John]

If you were there (Schwab & NTA) between Jan 86 and Jun 90, there is a good chance that you know me by sight. I was the Plt Sgt to 4th Mar Reg Snipers.

I was also there with 1/6 in 83 and 85.

Any of you guys know Capt G.H. Bristol?

I was on the Rock late 94 to early 96 assigned to the RAS in April. There is a 4th Marines group on Facebook if you care to join.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=52166761405

Sure I had some fun...first and foremost were the friends I made there. In terms of getting to do the fun stuff...NTA was where I got to do most of my high speed like SPIE rigging, repelling, doing OPFOR. With the 4th there was TOWEX at Camp Fuji for instance was a blast (literally), MOUT training.

Saw some funny shit pulling SP duty in Kinville or SAR duty during typhoon season.

I'll see if I can dig up some pics.

[Belmont31R]

We had a female NCO who was abusing her authority against lower enlisted, and she was barred from every being in charge of anyone again. She was not kicked out but wasn't promoted, and wasn't going to make it to retirement as an E5 not allowed to be in charge of anything.


Another case (I was actually under this guy for a bit) that was a real douche to us but incompetent. When it came time to deploy he was transferred to HHC, and got to be rear-d. Another case where no one is going to recommend him for promotion, and he'll wither on the vine not going anywhere.


Generally I thought it too easy to make E5 but I now realize they'll allow you to give yourself enough rope to hang yourself with. If you can't hack it as a sgt you aren't going up the ladder. Of course people slip through but they generally end up on the vine, too.

In the unit I deployed with I thought pretty highly of everyone in my COC from E6 on up. We had some douches like every other unit but I didn't really have to deal with them much. Our PLT LDR was a mustang 1LT who was an E6 11B before getting out to get a degree, worked for the FBI for a couple years, and came back in as an officer. He was really the epitome of what a good leader is, and looking back he sticks out in my mind more than any other O. I think thats generally how it works. You remember the best and the worst but not the average ones too much. Ive had other LT's who couldn't read a map, and we drove around Baghdad for hours lost. One who didn't know radio protocol or even how to turn it on much less install crypto.

My last unit before I got out was horrible, and I had zero respect for the COC. Lazy NCO's, asshole 1SG who never deployed and spent the last 3 years or so as a DS for AIT students, spineless CO, etc. I didn't jive with that place at all, and got out as quickly as I could.

[Army Chief]

As a complete aside, I've just got to say that, in reading how this thread has progressed, the maturity and character of the men who have contributed to it, and the obvious cameraderie and respect that we all share with, and for, each other, I can't help but come away impressed.

Agreement is not essential; understanding is.


It is a pleasure to spend a few minutes of my day with you, gentlemen ... even if it happens to be in General Discussion. ;)

AC

[RogerinTPA]

We had a female NCO who was abusing her authority against lower enlisted, and she was barred from every being in charge of anyone again. She was not kicked out but wasn't promoted, and wasn't going to make it to retirement as an E5 not allowed to be in charge of anything.


Another case (I was actually under this guy for a bit) that was a real douche to us but incompetent. When it came time to deploy he was transferred to HHC, and got to be rear-d. Another case where no one is going to recommend him for promotion, and he'll wither on the vine not going anywhere.


Generally I thought it too easy to make E5 but I now realize they'll allow you to give yourself enough rope to hang yourself with. If you can't hack it as a sgt you aren't going up the ladder. Of course people slip through but they generally end up on the vine, too.

In the unit I deployed with I thought pretty highly of everyone in my COC from E6 on up. We had some douches like every other unit but I didn't really have to deal with them much. Our PLT LDR was a mustang 1LT who was an E6 11B before getting out to get a degree, worked for the FBI for a couple years, and came back in as an officer. He was really the epitome of what a good leader is, and looking back he sticks out in my mind more than any other O. I think thats generally how it works. You remember the best and the worst but not the average ones too much. Ive had other LT's who couldn't read a map, and we drove around Baghdad for hours lost. One who didn't know radio protocol or even how to turn it on much less install crypto.

My last unit before I got out was horrible, and I had zero respect for the COC. Lazy NCO's, asshole 1SG who never deployed and spent the last 3 years or so as a DS for AIT students, spineless CO, etc. I didn't jive with that place at all, and got out as quickly as I could.

Excellent point. I was company commander in an intelligence unit operating independently in a foreign country. The NCO leadership was so piss poor, "clicks" had developed. I had to call an NCO meeting and threatened to fire every one of them if I caught myself doing NCO duties again. Thank God I got a combat arms (Armor) 1SG in a month later. He and I had to really pull that unit together. When a soldier f'd up big time, I would call a formation, have the company clerk read the offense with a bullhorn, then proceeded to cut the rank of the soldier's collar. That really got there attention and served as a wake up call.

It has always been the fault of piss poor leadership which frustrates and drive hard charging people out. I used to call guys like that "110 percenters". You had to hold them by their leash at times to prevent them from taking too much initiative, and mentor them into future hard charging leaders.

[SeriousStudent]

If you were there (Schwab & NTA) between Jan 86 and Jun 90, there is a good chance that you know me by sight. I was the Plt Sgt to 4th Mar Reg Snipers.

I was also there with 1/6 in 83 and 85.

Any of you guys know Capt G.H. Bristol?

I'll bet we've met. I remember having a chat with some of the STA guys when they were doing a demo package at CTA. And I think I remember watching them shooting some LAW's once. You guys used to come up north and practice stalks and land nav a lot, IIRC.

You worked for regiment, under SgtMaj. Epperson, right?

Bristol...... I don't know if that name sounds familiar, or if it's just a familiar sounding name.

[SeriousStudent]

I was on the Rock late 94 to early 96 assigned to the RAS in April. There is a 4th Marines group on Facebook if you care to join.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=52166761405

Sure I had some fun...first and foremost were the friends I made there. In terms of getting to do the fun stuff...NTA was where I got to do most of my high speed like SPIE rigging, repelling, doing OPFOR. With the 4th there was TOWEX at Camp Fuji for instance was a blast (literally), MOUT training.

Saw some funny shit pulling SP duty in Kinville or SAR duty during typhoon season.

I'll see if I can dig up some pics.

Rappel Master class was a blast, one of my faves.

And you were part of the dreaded Ville Patrol? :eek:

[Gutshot John]

Rappel Master class was a blast, one of my faves.

And you were part of the dreaded Ville Patrol? :eek:

I don't know how much they dreaded us (at least not the corpsman) but I never had a problem. They always brought a corpsman (since that seemed to calm the most unruly of drunken marine) along so we rotated with the FSSG docs. The only time it was unpleasant was when everyone was confined to base when that young girl was raped by two marines and a corpsman and they weren't even on Schwab. We still caught a few out on the town much to the locals' displeasure.

The two upsides: Streetfood (yakisoba with cheese which the Okinawans must have thought was crazy); Learning that no matter how macho you might want to be Habu Sake was something to avoid at all costs.

[Smuckatelli]

I'll bet we've met. I remember having a chat with some of the STA guys when they were doing a demo package at CTA. And I think I remember watching them shooting some LAW's once. You guys used to come up north and practice stalks and land nav a lot, IIRC.

That was the bad/good thing about being a Plt Sgt as a Sgt. We had to get the Combat Engineers to babysit us for our demo packages...TOW (Temporary Overseas Workingparty) Plt didn't have vehicles yet so we used up all of their demo for 3 years straight. NTA gave me full run of the area; we used to supply updated Japanese Topo maps to basecamp because the DMA ones were so out of date. We did most of our stalking at DZ NTA.

The worst stalk that I ran was on IE Shima....I had this bright idea to teach them how to set trip flares...the big ones....after I gave the class I told them to set up 5 each in the open area just south of the airstrip. When they finished I gave them a surprise stalk through the area that they had just set up the flares.

After the first guille suit caught on fire, I had to stop the stalk and run them through the course as regular infantry without guille suits....yeah, that wasn't one of my brightest ideas but it sure was effective.

I also used to pre-stage gear; AKs, uniforms, and radios in the duty shack at NTA. I'd fly the Marines up in helos, I'd drive my JCI car and give them opportunities to report on what they 'saw.' The light duty bubbas would be the radio watches back at Schwab. We used HF comms to talk back to Reg, we would set up a diapole antennae using the lights to the tennis court next to the PX. VHF to talk to NTA Basecamp. Once we had 28 Marines in the Platoon we moved out of the Dickey Barracks and took over the flat top right next to the Reg CP across from RAS.



You worked for regiment, under SgtMaj. Epperson, right?


Yes, he ended up retiring out of Oki and lived in Hooterville. GySgt John Wayne Cornell (no shit that is his name) ended up doing the same.



Bristol...... I don't know if that name sounds familiar, or if it's just a familiar sounding name.

He checked in as the S-2 AZ.......once he picked up Capt he went down to 3rd Recon. He's a Mustang, 32 years in so far. He made a deal with the Commandant to create the MCMAP (Jarhead Kung-Fu) program, his payback was 3rd Recon Battalion, as a intell bubba he became the Bn CMDR.

[SeriousStudent]

......

The two upsides: Streetfood (yakisoba with cheese which the Okinawans must have thought was crazy);......

Taco rice and cheese!!!! Hellz yeah! :D

A buddy of mine that did a pump over there from 3rd Marines still raves about the stuff. :)

[SeriousStudent]

Smuckatelli - Chortle. Were you the guy that rigged the artillery simulator to a bench, just as he was teaching a booby traps class? Couple young PFC's soiled their armor over that one. :p

I remember somebody doing that as "the teachable moment." I'm pretty sure the statute of limitations is up on that.

And I hear you on the poor TOW guys. They always got "volun-told" for every detail that came along. "You guys can't fire a missile, so you might as well make yourselves useful."

So that's where the name Bristol comes to mind. I remember him talking to a Gunny I knew, who was a serious Shotokan Karate guy. He was a good guy. :)

[Smuckatelli]

So that's where the name Bristol comes to mind. I remember him talking to a Gunny I knew, who was a serious Shotokan Karate guy. He was a good guy. :)

He's still good to go, every once in a while I run into him at TBS throwing the young Lts around. He was a sniper when he was enlisted...he mentored the hell out of me....

The arty sim....not me.

The biggest oh shit 'what the hell were you thinking' that I had was as a DetCmdr in Bangui...I did a react bombdrill that backfired on me and turned into a major international incident with the French.

It involved a loaf of bread, an EOD team from Stuttgard, and Main State.

Did you guys ever get the tacos located by the Cosmos Bar in Hooterville? Didn't matter if it was 04 in the morning...ole mamasan was always there to give out tacos....I'm still convinced that the special sauce was her spitting in the taco.

The yak at the first stop when entering Hooterville was outstanding. The Jap in a Box just inside the main gate had awesome pepperoni dogs......

[Smuckatelli]

There is a 4th Marines group on Facebook if you care to join.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=52166761405



I joined, I'm going to have to scan some pictures.

[DragonDoc]

Can't say that I miss the military since I am still in. I get asked atleast once a week "when are you going to retire"? I feel like Brett Favre when I hear that question. Who wants to quit something they love and I L O V E being a Combat Medic. Last weekend my Grandfather came to visit for my daughters high school graduation and we ended up talking about life in the Army. He told me how he used to have a special pair of boots that looked like glass that he only wore for guard mount and parades. We talked about guard duty, three day passes, leave and KP. To this day he says he hates to do dishes. I believe that all service members hold a special place in their hearts for their time in the military. If my Grandpa speaks fondly of his two years in the Army, then we all have fond memories of our time experiencing the big suck.

[Gutshot John]

Some memories from NTA. For guys that have never been there it is a JWTC in the middle of a triple canopy jungle. At 5 pm it was quite dark, in the middle of the night you couldn't see six inches in front of your face. Lots of snakes (which didn't bother me) and banana spiders (which did).

The first hour I arrived...SAR mission in the middle of the night after a Marine walked off a cliff in the middle of a night land nav exercise. He was pretty messed up and had to be helo'd down to the hospital. The only funny part of that night was busting my ass and sliding down a 100 foot muddy slope with an O2 bottle in one hand and a jump kit in the other..."Welcome to NTA Doc!."

Two of the cooks decided to go for a rafting trip during some downtime between training packages. Unfortunately their choice of "paddles" were the big flat metal stirrers used in giant soup pots which promptly sank leaving them adrift and lost for about 24 hours until a helo spotted them. From then on they were known as "Huck" and "Tom."

[Smuckatelli]

The first hour I arrived...SAR mission in the middle of the night after a Marine walked off a cliff in the middle of a night land nav exercise.



He must have had the LBV on, when we had the 'Y' harness there was a tendancy especially at NTA for night land nav to hold onto the Marines harness. In 85 we had a fireteam (+) in need of medivac because all six of them went down with the compassman.

[SeriousStudent]

.......

The biggest oh shit 'what the hell were you thinking' that I had was as a DetCmdr in Bangui...I did a react bombdrill that backfired on me and turned into a major international incident with the French.

It involved a loaf of bread, an EOD team from Stuttgard, and Main State.



:eek: Owwie..... sometimes people have no sense of humor......



Did you guys ever get the tacos located by the Cosmos Bar in Hooterville? Didn't matter if it was 04 in the morning...ole mamasan was always there to give out tacos....I'm still convinced that the special sauce was her spitting in the taco.

The yak at the first stop when entering Hooterville was outstanding. The Jap in a Box just inside the main gate had awesome pepperoni dogs......

Yep, and I used to love the chicken nuggets just outside the main gate at Hansen. Something like 250 yen for six of them? I was convinced they were made from human thigh meat at that price, but man, they were good... It was right next to the camera store, I scored some great Nikon gear there.

[SeriousStudent]

Some memories from NTA. For guys that have never been there it is a JWTC in the middle of a triple canopy jungle. At 5 pm it was quite dark, in the middle of the night you couldn't see six inches in front of your face. Lots of snakes (which didn't bother me) and banana spiders (which did).

The first hour I arrived...SAR mission in the middle of the night after a Marine walked off a cliff in the middle of a night land nav exercise. He was pretty messed up and had to be helo'd down to the hospital. The only funny part of that night was busting my ass and sliding down a 100 foot muddy slope with an O2 bottle in one hand and a jump kit in the other..."Welcome to NTA Doc!."

Two of the cooks decided to go for a rafting trip during some downtime between training packages. Unfortunately their choice of "paddles" were the big flat metal stirrers used in giant soup pots which promptly sank leaving them adrift and lost for about 24 hours until a helo spotted them. From then on they were known as "Huck" and "Tom."

Hehehehe, then there was the young Lt that had mightily irritated his squadron XO, and was assigned to us as the "downed aviator" during a TRAP for a SOCEX. They hung him from his harness on that landing skid where they trained the rappel classes. He hung there for about 2 hours, until the search party found him.

He was "unconscious", and could not alert the fireteam looking for him. Finally somebody looked up the cliff. ;)

And since he had a "broken leg from the ejection", it was uber-fun getting him down.

Good times. :D

And that was a real issue with the land nav - troops getting hurt. I had talked to some guys that had done Super Squad competition, and even they hated the night-time strolls through those gentle hills.

If the three of us ever meet up, the first bottle of soju is on me. :cool:

[Smuckatelli]

If the three of us ever meet up, the first bottle of soju is on me. :cool:

Individual, fireteam, or squad size bottles?

I was just talking to my barber about soju last week.......made it difficult to get back to MuChuk (Team Spirit.MWTC) or Uncheon (Bear Hunt) if you took on a squad bottle by yourself.

[Gutshot John]

Ahhh the Soju Experience...

[SeriousStudent]

Individual, fireteam, or squad size bottles?

I was just talking to my barber about soju last week.......made it difficult to get back to MuChuk (Team Spirit.MWTC) or Uncheon (Bear Hunt) if you took on a squad bottle by yourself.

And now available in the handy platoon-sized keg...... :D

I had some BBQ at a buddy's house tonight, who was in 3rd Marines. He was the one that loved the taco cheese and rice, that I talked about earlier. I told him about this thread, and mentioned some of it's more poignant, heart-touching moments..... ;)

His wife just shook her head. I know what she was thinking:

"Jeez, they aren't kidding about the Misguided Children part..."

Ah, Korea. Doc, how many cases of the "Pohang Crud" did you have to treat?

[SeriousStudent]

Ahhh the Soju Experience...

LOL - I still have that t-shirt someplace.

Along with one from Rock Lobster, the bar/cafe/dating establishment/hot tub club south of Olongapo.

[Buck]

LOL - I still have that t-shirt someplace.

Along with one from Rock Lobster, the bar/cafe/dating establishment/hot tub club south of Olongapo.

The Golden Triangle was, T's, Terries, and Top Gun... Heres a shot of my platoon at T's knocking back a few redhorses on liberty in 89...

B

5267

[Smuckatelli]

We attended the Naval Gunfire Course in the upper MEU Camp.....when we weren't adjusting guns we would secure at 14:30. We had a routine (yeah, I know...bad) that as soon as you got across peso bridge you hook a right and hit the UN Club for happy hour. Every 40 minutes we would OM to another happy hour.

I think the most layed back place was the barrio between Olongapo & Subic. Grass hut bars, ice in the San Magoo.......