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View Full Version : AAR EAG Carbine Durango CO 23-25May2007



Pat_Rogers
05-27-07, 15:48
EAG conducted a Carbine Operators Course hosted by the Durango, CO PD May 23-25 May 2007. We piggybacked this course onto the previous Pueblo West class, and the trip westward was made memorable by the WX in Wolf Creek pass, when temps dropped from mid 40’s to below freezing, and sun gave rapidly away to clouds, rain, sleet and finally snow.. Fortunately Colorado understands how to deal with WX issues and the roads were functional. Aside from the requisite white knuckle moments the remainder of the trip was a non issue.
TD1 was a steady rain with temps in the high 30’s. It slowed things down just a bit, but the remainder of the course was sunny and cool.
The class was conducted on a commercial range, and the resultant noise of freedom being maintained apparently gave local Wal-Mart shoppers (and others) something to consider as they conducted their daily chores.
This class had cops from Durango, La Plata County, Vail, Ft Lewis College, Farmington NM, Yavapai County AZ, Casa Grande AZ, and Salt Lake City UT as well as local gunsmith and 1911 pistol wizard Stan Chen. The diversity of the class was also reflected in how regional US policing really is, and how each department visualizes what weapons, equipment and training are viable. It also reflects how each department balances budgetary issues relative during the GWOT.
Overall quality of the class was high. Some issues were perplexing. Most attending strongly believed that the AR required minimal lube, causing multiple weapon issues, especially on TD1. Some were perplexed when we administered heavy lube on the poorly running guns, but all saw the light when these guns ran as advertised.
Much of this is possibly due to prior training issues. Myths abound in this business, and sometimes when something gets rolling, it is hard to stop.
The AR runs better wet than dry. That is a fact of life.
Bad magazines continue to plague us. One department used their “training magazines” (painted bright blue) rather then their duty mags. While this is understandable on one level, we observed that the magazines with problems had the words “No Good” scratched on the body, indicating that they had caused problems in the past.
They felt it would be better not to damage duty mags during training (I agree) but having deficient magazines results in degraded training.
I’ll say this again- don’t fall in love with your magazines. If you identify one as a problem, get rid of it. Like a toothache, it won’t miraculously get better on its own. Mags are inexpensive now, a situation likely to change when the socialists come into power. Stocking up on mags is not a bad idea.
Half of this class had iron sighted guns. Of those with optics, two had C-Mores. The C-less is last on my list of optics for a wide variety of reasons. One shooter ditched his during TD1- the other kept his on for the class. Aimpoints and one EOTech were on the remainder of the guns.
One tac team ran the course with Gem Tech M4C suppressors attached. Gem Tech makes a sweet product, and while running a can during a training course ensures a very dirty gun, their guns ran well (OK, ran well except for the magazine issues…).
We had two high end guns go down. We believe it was gas problems associated with the gas block, but don’t have a lock on it yet.
Durango is a beautiful place, as is a fair amount of CO. Lots of yuppie/ hippie scum and granola munchers, but with enough real deal humans to make it livable.
We stayed with Jeff and Micki, and waking up to the sight of snow covered mountains was a great way to start off the day.
I like all of the classes that I teach, and I haven’t had a bozo in a long while (at least since Quantico a few years ago).
I don’t like most people, and while this business (like all businesses) is full of duplicitous back stabbers, charlatans and clowns, those attending the classes have a commonality of interest and a desire to improve skill sets that make the rest of it worthwhile.
Thanks to Mike Hueser and JK for their hard work. Both spent more time then necessary tweaking guns and changing parts, but the result was worth it.
Special thanks to Capt Micki Browning of the Durango PD for hosting the class.
Thanks as well to Kyle Lamb at Viking Tactics, TangoDown, CamelBak, Larue Tactics, Slip 2000, Tactical Springs and Eagle Industries for their continued support.
We’ll be back in Durango in May of 2008. FWIW, we are CO POST cert for our Carbine Operators class.

Stan Chen
05-29-07, 09:31
As you would expect, this class was fantastic. Most of the attendees are not internet forum browsing types, so it's likely you won't hear from them. So allow me to sum up my sentiments, and those that I spoke with.

As is common knowledge here, Pat’s carbine program is super solid, effective, and efficient in imparting practical fighting carbine skills to students. This was a LE class. The LEO’s in our immediate area are generally great, hard working, down to earth folks who care about the community and doing a good job. Without a doubt, this class was an enormous contribution to our local fighting skillset. A few were immersed in a long gun mindset they had never been exposed to before, and all seemed to show marked improvement throughout the class. As mentioned we had great shooters from NM, AZ, UT, and other parts of CO. Cpt. Micki Browning deserves a huge high five for putting this class together. It was real pleasure to meet and shoot with everyone.

Weather on TD1 was a challenge to say the least. But, to a man, everyone kept a great attitude and motored on with the program. I never thought I’d be busting out my elk hunting gear at the end of May. The mud all over our carbines certainly gave them a bit of flavor that made most of us grin.

I shot next to the C-less shooter, and witnessed up close the frustration involved in getting the thing to work and zeroed. Adjustments were very unpredictable, and he ditched it in short order. On the other side of me were the Gemtech shooting fellas, and I must say it was a rather pleasant experience…the cans were very effective in suppressing the 5.56 blast. The rest of the class ran Aimpoints, EO’s and irons. I don’t recall any other optic problems occurring. The iron shooters I saw did really quite well, considering.

The bleak ammo situation is real in terms of quality, cost, and availability. My buds at the SO probably pulled out a half dozen types of ammo that was scrounged from various sources just to get through the class. My solution has been to roll my own 5.56 on one of my Dillon 1050’s. This gives me total control of my training loads, and the ammo performed superbly. At an easy 1000+ rds/hr. it is not a major inconvenience.


I left with the distinct feeling that even though one may have taken Pat’s class before (I attended his Gunsite 223 a few years ago), it is still a great idea to jump into one on a regular basis to stay fresh and get slapped around where needed. In my own shooting, I found that I now prefer a vertical grip mounted about ½ way down the hand guard, as opposed to the mag well hold I had been previously using. Seems more solid and I’m able to drive the gun better to the target. Pat tweaked my hold, suggesting a thumb forward grip on the VFG, which corrected a tendency I was developing to cant the carbine. The many drills in the class pushed us, taught us good fighting skills, and were just plain fun.

One other gear note new to me, though probably known to many of you. Some BM lowers have a dimensional problem, wherein the bolt catch fails to engage/lock back on the magazine follower of some mil-spec magazines. The follower continues to slide upward in front of the bolt catch, missing it completely; as such the bolt does not lock back on an empty mag. Not good. Insert the same mag in my Colt 6920, and it works perfectly.

A million thanks Jeff and Micki for your generous hospitality. Also thanks to Josh and Mike for all their help and support during the class. And to the Durango Gun Club for use of the range….“Primitive“, yes, but hey, it’s my home away from home.

Of course my greatest contribution to the class was allowing Pat the extremely rare opportunity to crack short jokes……

One and all, the students in the class felt it was training time extremely well spent, and were looking forward to next year. If you get the chance to take an EAG carbine course, do NOT hesitate!

Pat_Rogers
05-30-07, 06:19
Hi Stan!
Thanks for the kind words, and welcome aboard!
You are correct that most of those attending this class are foreign to gun forums. While many who attend my open classes do spend time cruising down the disinformation cowpath, most who attend my restricted classes have probably seldom (if ever) seen the inside of such a forum.
Your comments re: the BM dimensions will make you an enemy of many who have no clue as to what a measurement is, but then again, so what?

It was great seeing you again, short jokes and all!