View Full Version : water shooting
Country DeVil
06-13-10, 00:38
Just wondering, how do ar's deal with water? is there something special that has to be done to make them water proof? or will they shoot the same wet or dry.
Failure2Stop
06-13-10, 00:46
The gas-tube and bore need to be free of water, and it is generally a good idea to drain the receiver extension and magazine as well.
Magic_Salad0892
06-13-10, 04:58
In my opinion this is extremely subjective.
There was a member here telling me that he'd seen DI guns pass over the beach tests or something like that.
Research a thread called ''Heat is bad, DI is bad'' or something to that effect.
I can't remember the specifics.
From my basic knowledge, piston guns are pretty resistant to water.
Just make sure you get the water out of it before you shoot. I dont think you can make the rifle water tight, without some rediculous amounts of tape and what not.
Belmont31R
06-13-10, 09:17
In my opinion this is extremely subjective.
There was a member here telling me that he'd seen DI guns pass over the beach tests or something like that.
Research a thread called ''Heat is bad, DI is bad'' or something to that effect.
I can't remember the specifics.
From my basic knowledge, piston guns are pretty resistant to water.
Piston guns are not immune from blowing up if there is a bore obstruction (like water). And with a DI system if you drain the bore you are going to drain the gas tube at the same time.
Piston guns are not immune from blowing up if there is a bore obstruction (like water). And with a DI system if you drain the bore you are going to drain the gas tube at the same time.
+1
piston guns will blow up just like DI guns if the bore is not clear
Country DeVil
06-13-10, 13:48
Interesting, what do navy seals use? I assume they spend some time popping out of water and shooting.
Interesting, what do navy seals use? I assume they spend some time popping out of water and shooting.
i guess way they hold the guns makes different.
Is this a purely "i want to know" question or do you plan on popping out of the water any time soon? If its purely academic, great , but if its a delusions of grandeur question...well its a bit silly being 99% of us will never have to worry about it.
Country DeVil
06-13-10, 14:22
I want to see if I can swim across my pool in one breath pop up in the shallow end and shoot a squirrel. joking. I am asking just to ask
DaBears_85
06-13-10, 16:26
Interesting, what do navy seals use? I assume they spend some time popping out of water and shooting.
They make "water-tight" bags to carry your weapon in. The ones I'm familiar with are just a transparent plastic bag roughly the dimensions of the box your weapon came in. You put it in the bag and then seal it. I think I remember seeing some on Ranger Joe's if you actually wanted to purchase some.
I've also heard of "SEAL-types" using condoms over the barrel of their rifles or SMG's or whatever. Not sure of the validity of that one. Just something I heard through the 'private news network'.
Interesting, what do navy seals use? I assume they spend some time popping out of water and shooting.
What they use is a technique or method, not a particular type of gear.
You come out of the water, pull the charging handle to the rear so that the bolt clears the chamber and tip the barrel downward so that you introduce a clear opening so that air can flow in and water flows out (down). Magazines with holes in the baseplates are helpful, but with or without them, cracking open the bolt a touch is the surest way to get the water out of the most important portion: the barrel, because water doesn't compress. Might as well have concrete in the bore.
Just think of a straw in your MacDonald's Happy Meal drink: you seal the top with the tip of your finger, pull the straw up out of the fluid, the fluid in the straw stays there. Remove that finger from the tip, it plummets out.
Anybody that thinks that folks practice just simply jumping out of the water and shooting has been watching too many Chuck Norris movies, unless the Director's Cut shows the barrel exploding in his face but he kills everybody anyway because he's Chuck f**kingNorris. Maybe, somewhere out there, some bubba-gun-owning half-wit can claim to have done it with no effect. I don't think so, but if that half-wit exists, you either want to hang close to him because he's the luckiest SOB in the world....or get the hell away from him because you're gonna catch shrapnel from whichever harebrained event the Magic 8 Ball randomly comes up with the You're Hosed message.
^^ Also realize that in many of the OTB testing videos you may see that don't use some version of what is described above; the weapon may successfully fire, and fire several times. What you don't see is that the the barrel is likely ringed/ruined...
Belmont31R
06-13-10, 20:52
^^^
I used to shoot competitive trap, and can't count the number of multi thousand dollar guns I saw get FUBAR'd just because of a stuck plastic wad in the barrel.
Unless you are shooting a piston gun, you better allow the weapon to drain before firing. Otherwise, you are asking for a KB.
Magic_Salad0892
06-14-10, 03:14
Piston guns are not immune from blowing up if there is a bore obstruction (like water). And with a DI system if you drain the bore you are going to drain the gas tube at the same time.
I'm not saying their immune but (in theory, to me, there are definitely others more experienced.) with a piston gun there isn't a gas tube to drain, so there is a little more room for error, also, when the gun comes to surface most of the water would be coming out of the barrel anyway wouldn't it?
To me:
It's not about specifically clearing the weapon, it's more about deploying it properly so that the water clears the bore, as you draw, or rise from the water.
It will drain, sure. Not particularly quickly, and simply presuming that the stuff will drain, while techincally correct, is still sort of presumption on the part of the operator.
Cracking the bolt a bit, you can see a greater volume come out of the barrel, which gives you a visual reference for when the water is more or less done draining as the flow slows down/stops.
It's no different than doing a press-check to ensure that you're Condition 1 or a visual/manual check of the empty chamber to ensure that you're Condition 4. You "inspect what you expect."
http://www.loksak.com/products
these work. i use them. the rifle saks aint listed on the website, i dont think, but user SafetyHit can assist with that.
Smuckatelli
06-14-10, 08:57
What they use is a technique or method, not a particular type of gear.
You come out of the water, pull the charging handle to the rear so that the bolt clears the chamber and tip the barrel downward so that you introduce a clear opening so that air can flow in and water flows out (down). Magazines with holes in the baseplates are helpful, but with or without them, cracking open the bolt a touch is the surest way to get the water out of the most important portion: the barrel, because water doesn't compress. Might as well have concrete in the bore.
+1, This is exactly how we cleared our weapons in the small boat company. Our crew serves where in waterproof plastic bags. I wouldn't recommend doing this unless you have some very deep pockets. The saltwater really shortens the life of the weapon. Yuo could easily tell who was in F Co 2/1 even in the middle of the desert....we had the rifles that looked like RRA match rifles from a distance.:D
Something else....if you need to engage as soon as you pop out of the water.....someone didn't do their job.
Heavy Metal
06-14-10, 09:19
Unless you are shooting a piston gun, you better allow the weapon to drain before firing. Otherwise, you are asking for a KB.
You better drain it even if it is a piston gun. Any .22 cal (5.56) bore will hold a column of water thru capilary attraction. Like J. Santoro said, think of a soda straw as it is about .22cal in diameter.
Piston hasn't got a damn thing to do with it. Bore obstruction is everything.
A .30 cal bore will self-drain if you just tip it down. The surface are vs volume is low enought for gravity to overcome the Van Der Waals attraction.
FWIW, early models like the 601, 602 and early 603 had non-drain hole screws - something guys doing retro builds actually look for. With input from SEAL teams and others, the M16A1 was standardized with a buffer tube screw with a drain hole, which doesn't do anything for clearing the barrel, but definitely helps drain any water in the receiver extension. Along with chrome chambers and better extractor springs, probably one of the more useful improvements made to the weapon.
As an aside, the Mk4 Mod 0 had a Kal-Guard finish on all surfaces to inhibit corrosion, and was rated to I believe, 70 meters unprotected. FWIW, Victor at US anodizing offers a 'Navy finish' that is likely as close as you can get - although any Moly finish is pretty mmuch the same thing, apparently he does EVERYTHING, including BCG and TG, which brings up interesting tolerance issues.
I doubt a SEAL would ever put a condom on weapon for such use, since as many have said, you want to charge the weapon slowly to let it drain - a condom would be a problem there. That is an old school way to keep out grit however. I can see them using bags, but always used to laugh when I saw those Ranger commercials back in the '80s where they rise slowly out of the swamp, weapons at the ready. Definitely drain the barrel. Not as glamorous as bagging the weapon though, LOL. ;)
Failure2Stop
06-14-10, 14:43
The ability to fire quickly upon breaking the surface was written into the requirements document for the SCAR. With three tubes to drain on the M4, it takes significantly more time to safely fire after surfacing than the SCAR does. This test is what virtually precluded DI as an operation system for the SCAR.
Whether or not surfacing and immediately firing is a necessary action for someone is up to them, but I can say that only one segment of the SCAR using community was insistent on this capability.
FWIW- the draining method as described by JSantoro above will enable an M4/M16 to fire in a few seconds.
RetreatHell
06-14-10, 15:12
......I doubt a SEAL would ever put a condom on weapon for such use, since as many have said, you want to charge the weapon slowly to let it drain - a condom would be a problem there......
Ummm... hello! The SEALs in the movie GI Jane did it, so me thinks it must be true.:D
I had this discussion with Ken Elmore a long time ago. He broke it down like JSantoro. Break the seal on the action to get the bulk of the water out, and then go to town.
^^ Also realize that in many of the OTB testing videos you may see that don't use some version of what is described above; the weapon may successfully fire, and fire several times. What you don't see is that the the barrel is likely ringed/ruined...
The saltwater really shortens the life of the weapon. Yuo could easily tell who was in F Co 2/1 even in the middle of the desert....we had the rifles that looked like RRA match rifles from a distance.
Could someone elaborate on these please? especially in regards to the SCAR.
Failure2Stop
06-14-10, 18:41
Could someone elaborate on these please? especially in regards to the SCAR.
Having a water obstruction in the bore will result in a huge pressure spike, in front of as well as behind the bullet, resulting in distortion of the barrel.
Salt water greatly accelerates corrosion, especially in military weapons that have to endure destructive cleaning processes that remove surface finishes that would normally protect the metal.
^^ Also realize that in many of the OTB testing videos you may see that don't use some version of what is described above; the weapon may successfully fire, and fire several times. What you don't see is that the the barrel is likely ringed/ruined...
Could someone elaborate on these please? especially in regards to the SCAR.
F2S Got there before me but yes that was what I was referring to.
If you search videos for Over The Beach Testing or OTB Testing, you will find several examples of rifles (mostly pistons) being fired immediately or almost immediately after surfacing. Some (HK) even while basically still submerged. You wont see them doing what JSantoro discussed. It's cool but, I wouldn't want those barrels (post testing) on my weapon...
When firing with a full/partial barrel obstruction the projectile will slow, the pressure will spike, and something has to give. If there is not a catastrophic failure, ringed, bulged, washboarded barrels are often the result.
While the weapon may still fire and function, that damage is often detrimental to accuracy and compromises the structural integrity of the barrel. That is what I was referring to when I said ruined.
As it relates to the SCAR I am not qualified to say. If the requirement was for the ability to fire quickly upon breaking the surface, that is slightly different than immediately. Though that difference is probably subjective if someone is shooting at you. ;) I can see the need for some small user groups... But, I would place it in the highest forms of abuse category. :) I would expect that barrels subjected to much of that to have a fairly short service life cycle.
Maybe someone can elaborate in regards to the SCAR.
I want to see if I can swim across my pool in one breath pop up in the shallow end and shoot a squirrel.
Awesome.
Riley~~~
I haven't heard of the Seals doing anything special to the M4 for water use. I did hear they use a Lube called "Marine Pal".
After a mission. The guns get flushed out with fresh water. Dried. Regular gun cleaning procedure and relubed with"Marine Pal".
I think they chose that lube as it doesn't wash off with water.
I had this discussion with Ken Elmore a long time ago. He broke it down like JSantoro. Break the seal on the action to get the bulk of the water out, and then go to town.
This procedure is also outlined in the -10 Operator's Manual, under "Operations Under Unusual Conditions-Fording".
I want to see if I can swim across my pool in one breath pop up in the shallow end and shoot a squirrel.
THAT was hilarious!
What a visual! Ha!
:D
If you search videos for Over The Beach Testing or OTB Testing, you will find several examples of rifles (mostly pistons) being fired immediately or almost immediately after surfacing.
Yeah, for testing purposes is one thing....I'm still happy to let somebody else do that! :p
Ther was one such incident, several years ago, involving a Marine with an element of 4th Recon Bn tooling around up in Alaska. He forgot to drain, and popped off a round. Not pretty.
Smuckatelli
06-15-10, 09:15
Salt water greatly accelerates corrosion, especially in military weapons that have to endure destructive cleaning processes that remove surface finishes that would normally protect the metal.
That's part of it but even with new weapons that didn't have time to have the surface finishes cleaned 'properly';)
We still had issues with areas that the user couldn't access legally:
Most of the issues centered around a white crusty oxidation (?) and some rust.
Slave pins in the lower receivers, the detents/springs holding the takedown pins in, the inner workings of the rear sights.......basically every piece of metal that wasn't aluminum (some of the aluminum got the white crusty crap also).
While these things are no brainers to most here, allowing an Infantry company to completely take apart the rifle is a no-go.
If you search videos for Over The Beach Testing or OTB Testing, you will find several examples of rifles (mostly pistons) being fired immediately or almost immediately after surfacing. Some (HK) even while basically still submerged. You wont see them doing what JSantoro discussed. It's cool but, I wouldn't want those barrels (post testing) on my weapon...
Yeah, for testing purposes is one thing....I'm still happy to let somebody else do that! :p
Ther was one such incident, several years ago, involving a Marine with an element of 4th Recon Bn tooling around up in Alaska. He forgot to drain, and popped off a round. Not pretty.
Yes, I certainly wasn't advocating. Just pointing out the discrepancy in what someone may see, and the likely reality.
AllAmerican
06-15-10, 09:27
What they use is a technique or method, not a particular type of gear.
You come out of the water, pull the charging handle to the rear so that the bolt clears the chamber and tip the barrel downward so that you introduce a clear opening so that air can flow in and water flows out (down). Magazines with holes in the baseplates are helpful, but with or without them, cracking open the bolt a touch is the surest way to get the water out of the most important portion: the barrel, because water doesn't compress. Might as well have concrete in the bore.
Just think of a straw in your MacDonald's Happy Meal drink: you seal the top with the tip of your finger, pull the straw up out of the fluid, the fluid in the straw stays there. Remove that finger from the tip, it plummets out.
Anybody that thinks that folks practice just simply jumping out of the water and shooting has been watching too many Chuck Norris movies, unless the Director's Cut shows the barrel exploding in his face but he kills everybody anyway because he's Chuck f**kingNorris. Maybe, somewhere out there, some bubba-gun-owning half-wit can claim to have done it with no effect. I don't think so, but if that half-wit exists, you either want to hang close to him because he's the luckiest SOB in the world....or get the hell away from him because you're gonna catch shrapnel from whichever harebrained event the Magic 8 Ball randomly comes up with the You're Hosed message.
This is the way to do it guys. Lower the muzzle and pull back on the charging handle slightly just to open and allow the water to run out, I would only add when you release the charging handle hit your forward assist to make sure the bolt is fully closed. I have run M16's in very heavey rain, streams, etc. As long as you get the water out it will keep on working. First chance you get, clean the weapon as soon as possible, feasable!
AllAmerican
06-15-10, 09:37
This may sound crazy, but when I was with 2nd Force Recon, Camp Gieger, after a while training we would take our NEW M16, (we had just switch over from the M3A1 .45 cal., which had hardly had any protective finish left....
Anyway we would take the 16 into the shower with us and with the hottest water possible, just hit everything. Then we would hang the rifle up and as the water was hot it evaporated pretty fast, then we would clean as maintenance required. The washing got rid of most sand, dust, dirt, etc.
Smuckatelli
06-15-10, 09:56
Anyway we would take the 16 into the shower with us and with the hottest water possible, just hit everything. Then we would hang the rifle up and as the water was hot it evaporated pretty fast, then we would clean as maintenance required. The washing got rid of most sand, dust, dirt, etc.
That works, we did that with the 16s in our sniper platoon but.....it won't fly in a Smallboat Company...while the Marines were authorized to wear UDT shorts and black running shorts while we were the walking dead.....running the rifles in saltwater was operationally required....for some reason, back a Horno...the unknowning would not allow hot water to be used because the weapons would rust.....we were able to 'accidently' get a fresh water rinse while we were fresh water rinsing the LRRCs but not to the level that the weapons needed.
On the Ogden we were able to use the Boatswain's high pressure air hoses...these worked very well.
Ummm... hello! The SEALs in the movie GI Jane did it, so me thinks it must be true.:D
I knew I saw that scene in a movie somewhere!
This may sound crazy, but when I was with 2nd Force Recon, Camp Gieger, after a while training we would take our NEW M16, (we had just switch over from the M3A1 .45 cal., which had hardly had any protective finish left....
Anyway we would take the 16 into the shower with us and with the hottest water possible, just hit everything. Then we would hang the rifle up and as the water was hot it evaporated pretty fast, then we would clean as maintenance required. The washing got rid of most sand, dust, dirt, etc.
Makes sense to me - hot, soapy water is one of the best things to clean a black powder firearm with, and BP is notoriously corrosive. Of course you want to dry and lube everything ASAP, but especially around salt water it makes sense to me. I recently bought an M16 upper that have the worst pitting I've ever seen on a barrel, and the FSB has the front sight post rusted into it - I'm not even going to try to turn it out - it's that bad. The rest of the upper is pretty sweet, so it's going to get cut down into a dedicated .22LR - I'll take pics though next chance I get. It looks like it was stored barrel down in the bilge of a Thai pirate ship for 20 years...
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