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View Full Version : AAR - Grey Group/Vickers Tactical 1-day Basic Pistol Class - June 12th, 2010



SHIVAN
06-13-10, 17:44
Grey Group/Vickers Tactical 1-day Basic Pistol Class - June 12th, 2010


http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee192/SHIVAN308/Grey%20Group%20Vickers%20Basic%20Pistol%202010/IMG_3693.jpg

This class was held at Drake's Landing, Fuquay-Varina, NC on June 12th, 2010. Temperature was ~94º in the shade, and exceeded 98º in the sun, according to my Casio G-Shock temp sensors.

Instruction was provided by Larry Vickers, obviously from Vickers Tactical. NCpatrolAR and Josh from Grey Group made sure everything ran smoothly, and kept everyone in their lanes.

There were 19 shooters, including NC and Josh. Some M&P's, a couple 1911's, some Sig239's, a Springfield XD, and several Glocks. All three main calibers were represented: 9mm, 40S&W and 45acp. Holsters and mag pouches ran the entire gamut from Raven Concealment, Comptac, Safariland 6004's, Serpas, Bladetech, and some ones I didn't specifically identify.

Larry started the day with a brief overview of the safety rules he expected everyone to follow, and they very closely mirror the NRA's basic four. In concert with his version of the safety rules, he explained to us why accuracy was so important in shooting, and self-defense shooting in general.

1) Every bullet has a lawyer attached to it in the real world of civilian and LE shooting.
2) We only want the bad guys to get hurt, and in many cases the only real backstop we have to stop the travel of the bullet is the torso or body of a bad guy. Accuracy matters.
3) For the purposes of this class, anything off the paper bullseye target, even if on the IPSC target backer, would be considered a "miss".
4) If we found ourselves repeatedly off the paper target, or even out of the black, to slow down, make adjustments, and get the shots back in the black.

Next Larry covered the most important aspect of shooting: Trigger control. His opinion is that next to trigger control, all the other elements of shooting are easy to learn, and easier still to teach. Sight alignment can be covered with a nice graphical representation, of how the sights should look in relation to the target, and on what you should focus. Grip can be taught and corrected with physical input from the instructor, and demonstrated correctly ad nausem.

It's with trigger control that we enter a gray area of our brain, and the physical nature of our trigger fingers, that make trigger control something that can change from shot to shot if proper attention is not paid to squeezing straight to the rear with the sights aligned on your target. Which lead us right in to our first drills:

Dryfire Ball & Dummy
Livefire Ball & Dummy
Command fire Ball & Dummy

Dryfire Ball & Dummy starts out with a partner placing an empty case on the front sight of your pistol, the shooter squeezes the trigger smoothly to the rear and if done properly the case should remain atop the front sight.

Livefire Ball & Dummy requires your partner to load your pistol, but he may choose to load an empty chamber, or a live round, you don't know until you pull the trigger. Again, El Snatcho manifests itself, even on seasoned shooters, in this drill. It's meant to reinforce that the most successful route to good shooting is good trigger control.

Command fire Ball & Dummy has your partner setting your gun up as in the live fire portion, but this time, the shooter comes from the low ready on the timer, and squeezes the trigger when the sights are properly aligned on the target. The timer, as always, introduces an eliminate of stress that the shooter must overcome to maintain their shot to shot consistency.

It can't be said enough: Trigger control, Trigger control, Trigger control.

Each of these drills is meant to diagnose imperfections in your manipulation of the trigger. From experience, the shooter knows, or anticipates, that when he pulls the trigger there is going to be a loud bang, a flash, and recoil. In order to eradicate this virus, and focus on the correct trigger pull from shot to shot, Larry really sets the foundation in these first drills.

We practiced some dry runs drawing the gun from the holster, and incorporating a good draw, good trigger control, good follow through, and scanning/assessing.

Next we incorporated the draw on basic multiples from 2, 5, 7 and 10yds. Larry had us start at 2yds from the holster, and draw on the timer and shoot two shots in the X. Then draw and fire three shots. Then draw and fire four shots. Take two steps back...rinse & repeat. Again, these drills provided immediate feedback to most shooters that their technique for trigger control and sight alignment was on, or needed some minor adjustments. It also helps to build confidence in what you'd learned during Ball & Dummy.

Larry then had us draft semi-pro dodgeball teams, not really, but we did get to answer some trivia, for team captains, followed by playground recruitment for our teams of six.

First team relay put us on the line with six rounds in the gun, gun in holster about 7yds away from the target. First man draws and fires six rounds in to his target, taps the man to the left of him, repeat x5. Total time + any dropped shots adding to the total time. Anything off the bullseye target was considered a miss or +5 seconds, anything else out of the black was +1 second.

These drills emphasize that even little things like the timer, or pressing not to let down your team, can cause your brain to go mushy, and snatching the trigger is a typical result. As Larry points out, good trigger control practice isn't an instantaneous fix for poor habits. It must be practiced over time, and will eventually make you a far better shooter than if you focused purely on sight alignment issues, grip issues, etc.


...continued below...

VA_Dinger
06-13-10, 19:27
We should have some great AAR's & photos from this class. I am eager to see them.

SHIVAN
06-13-10, 19:42
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VA_Dinger
06-14-10, 00:21
Wow, the awesome photos have already started to arrive.

Klear Above
06-14-10, 10:20
Just started ripping through the video...:cool:

SHIVAN
06-14-10, 14:12
Reloads:

Larry demonstrated tac reloads where you choose the time and place to top of your gun, while retaining the partially expended magazine.

He described speed reloads, where you dropped a partially expended mag to the deck, inserted a new mag and continued shooting. Indicating that this was less than ideal, and that a mag dropping to the floor in a gunfight should be considered lost for a variety of reasons, and could lead to you ending up short on ammo in the near future.

He then covered emergency reloads. Reloads where you are shooting and the gun stops making loud noises because the mag is empty. He demoed the emergency reloads, and described the method he would like to see us use.

As always, he emphasized the workspace, dropping the mag while the using gravity to assist, and aligning the empty magwell with your mag pouch for the shortest and quickest distance from pouch to gun.

Two excellent representations of a reload:

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee192/SHIVAN308/Grey%20Group%20Vickers%20Basic%20Pistol%202010/IMG_3720.jpg
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SHIVAN
06-14-10, 20:14
This is a 6.0 sec video of a reload in a basic pistol class, the rest of y'all better get to practicin' -- :D:D:D:D:D:D

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee192/SHIVAN308/Grey%20Group%20Vickers%20Basic%20Pistol%202010/th_201006121237121.jpg (http://s235.photobucket.com/albums/ee192/SHIVAN308/Grey%20Group%20Vickers%20Basic%20Pistol%202010/?action=view&current=201006121237121.mp4)

M4arc
06-14-10, 20:22
Who is the guy in the Nationals hat shooting a Glock???

I looks a lot like Shivan but that couldn't be...:D

Looks like a great class and I'm sorry I missed it.

JSantoro
06-14-10, 21:01
Yeah, that dude and I were partnered in the earlier portions of the class. He's pretty slick. Very smooth, nary any visible wasted motion.



No. I'm sure of it. I hate him.

I need to, however, at this point take what may become an unpopular or controversial position: I am a handsome, handsome man. I mean, it's a mavel that I don't have chicks hanging offa me like pine cones.

Forserious.

SHIVAN
06-14-10, 22:00
From a personal standpoint, this was my first time shooting a Glock in a class scenario. I setup an Eagle belt with an Eagle 3x FB shingle on my belt, a Maxpedition Rolly Polly dump pouch, a Bladetech M4 kydex tek-lok pouch, and a Safariland 6004-10.

My Glock is a Gen3, drop-in KKM precision barrel, Surefire X300 and a Tango Down Vickers extended mag release.

I used three mags with the Arrendondo +3 extensions, and six stock 17rd G17 mags. All worked perfectly. I really like the 19rds in the Arrendondo equipped mags, a lot. I have to thank Ken Hackathorn for that pro-tip.

I am a 1911 shooter, and quite honestly I thought I was going to be hurting shooting the G17 for the first time. Fact is, the 9mm recoil is a pussycat, the KKM precision barrel is a laser, and working up through the ball & dummy drills to the confidence walk backs, to the repeatable trigger pull of the Glock system, all make for a sweet shooting pistol.

There's a huge upside to being able to carry 142rds on me while on the line.

SeriousStudent
06-14-10, 23:07
Shivan, thank you for the detailed photo sets and the video. It really does help relay the concepts.

Jay Cunningham
06-14-10, 23:27
Looks like another outstanding training opportunity from LAV and Grey Group.

zushwa
06-15-10, 05:19
That must be a Damn nice camera because I can't take pics for shit and some of those photos look pretty good. :)

It was nice meeting everyone. There were some good shooters and novices alike in this class and I think EVERYONE came away better.

@ business casual, sorry about the walk back drill. Sometimes I get a bit competitive.

@ klear above, more pics!

Business_Casual
06-15-10, 06:05
It's on!


B_C





:D

Klear Above
06-15-10, 06:38
Ask and you shall receive! Course video below enjoy: :D

Grey Group Training/Vickers Tactical Intro Pistol 12 June 2010 (http://community.greygrouptraining.com/2010/06/15/grey-group-trainingvickers-tactical-intro-pistol.aspx)

SHIVAN
06-15-10, 09:14
Shivan, thank you for the detailed photo sets and the video. It really does help relay the concepts.

While I'd love to take credit, Josh was rolling the still camera for me while I shot a couple short vids of reloads. All pics posted by me are Courtesy Josh and Grey Group. :cool:

zushwa
06-15-10, 19:46
Apparently, it's all about the SD cards. :confused: I was just mashing the button as fast as I could. Thank god my trigger control is just slightly better than my camera button mashing control. :)

SeriousStudent
06-15-10, 20:11
While I'd love to take credit, Josh was rolling the still camera for me while I shot a couple short vids of reloads. All pics posted by me are Courtesy Josh and Grey Group. :cool:

Then many thanks to Josh and those nice folks at Grey Group. :)

NCPatrolAR
06-16-10, 22:38
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/Brachialstun/Grey%20Group%20courses/DSC00780.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/Brachialstun/Grey%20Group%20courses/DSC00774.jpg

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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/Brachialstun/Grey%20Group%20courses/DSC00750.jpg

MGD
06-23-10, 20:11
thanks for posting the great pictures. this was my first (of many, hopefully) training course and i thoroughly enjoyed the training with LAV. it's good to finally get some teaching so that i know what i'm doing.

and it was good to put some faces with names. good to meet you Shivan and JSantoro.

NCPatrolAR
06-24-10, 00:04
and it was good to put some faces with names. good to meet you Shivan and JSantoro.

Oh what am I; chopped liver? ;)

SHIVAN
06-24-10, 08:56
Who is the guy in the Nationals hat shooting a Glock???

I looks a lot like Shivan but that couldn't be...:D

What's this world coming to? I'll tell you, the limited reloading was nice. I love the Arrendondo + extensions on the 17rd mags.

It also helped that at all distances we shot in the class, I was pretty much right on and dialed in. The only drill I muffed was the damn walk back on steel.

Now, we didn't use a timer for most stuff that day, but for my first time shooting a Glock in that setting, I loved it.

Still love the 1911, but the G17 is pretty damn suitable.

John_Wayne777
06-24-10, 09:02
Looks like a great class. Larry is, in my opinion, one of the best pistol instructors walking the planet. He's been one of the largest influences on my shooting.

...although looking at that sentence perhaps that's not something he would want to take credit for. :D

MGD
06-24-10, 10:25
Oh what am I; chopped liver? ;)

sorry. didn't officially KNOW you were who you were at the course since formal introductions were few. but good to meet you too.

NCPatrolAR
06-24-10, 12:18
sorry. didn't officially KNOW you were who you were at the course since formal introductions were few. but good to meet you too.

No sweat. Most people know me as Milfmaster anyways :cool:

Joe R.
06-24-10, 18:12
Hell, it wasn't until the Vickers CQB class that three of us even knew he had a name besides Milf Master! I think even Larry was a bit shocked.

zushwa
06-25-10, 10:10
The only drill I muffed was the damn walk back on steel.


Oh sure, blame the gun. :)

SHIVAN
06-25-10, 10:59
No, I just missed, twice, at what should have been an easy distance for 12"x12" steel. D'oh!

zushwa
06-25-10, 17:40
No, I just missed, twice, at what should have been an easy distance for 12"x12" steel. D'oh!

I'm just busting your balls dude. Good shooting with you.

SHIVAN
06-26-10, 08:27
I was tracking you, just not that damn steel. :D

You've got a kickass job man, all this shooting with all these top guys.

To top it off you're driving a mean car like the M6. Did I mention I "dislike" you...:D