View Full Version : Sand drives Army to ditch Velcro on pants
variablebinary
06-18-10, 15:57
Apparently there are additional changes above and beyond modifications to the pants in the near future. My Velcro has never come loose, but I always use the draw string to help secure items as well.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/military/2010-06-14-army-uniforms-velcro_N.htm?csp=34news
Sand drives Army to ditch Velcro on pants
By Tom Vanden Brook, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — The Army is ripping space-age Velcro from its uniforms and replacing it with the humble button, which turns out to be tailor-made for the rigors of Afghanistan.
Hook-and-pile tape — the generic term for Velcro— strains to keep jam-packed cargo pants pockets closed. And when the Taliban attacks, the last thing soldiers need to worry about is spilling their gear.
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Soldiers told superiors that Velcro didn't suit their needs, and the Army began testing alternatives last year, said Debi Dawson, an Army spokeswoman. In August, the Army will begin issuing new pants to soldiers heading to Afghanistan.
"When concerns surfaced in surveys that the hook-and-pile tape was not holding under the weight of full pocket loads, the Army evaluated several solutions," Dawson said. Velcro has been part of the latest Army combat uniform since it was introduced in 2004.
Dirt and rocks also clog the pile portion of the fastener. That requires soldiers to clean it regularly. An Army website offersthis helpful hint: a soldier's small weapons cleaning brush has been "working very well" in removing dirt and sand.
"This is the latest proof that dust and debris are the biggest enemy for the U.S. military," said Loren Thompson, a military analyst at the Lexington Institute and a consultant to defense contractors. "Taliban attacks come and go, but dust is constant in Afghanistan. Dust will impede the function of anything."
Sgt. Kenny Hatten cut to the heart of the matter in this posting on an Army website, urging the military to go back to the future:
"Get rid of the pocket flap Velcro and give us back our buttons," Hatten wrote. "Buttons are silent, easy to replace in the field, work just fine in the mud, do not clog up with dirt and do not fray and disintegrate with repeated laundering."
Somebody, apparently, was listening.
Snaps and buttons were identified as possible fixes for failing Velcro. The Army surveyed 2,700 soldiers who tested prototypes, and 60% said they preferred buttons and 29% liked snaps. Just 11% wanted to keep Velcro, according to the Army. In the end, the Army decided to substitute three buttons for Velcro on the cargo pockets of its pants.
It's cheaper, too. The Army will save 96 cents per uniform when it swaps buttons for Velcro, Dawson said.
The new-and-improved uniforms will still have plenty of Velcro, the sticky fabric popularized during spaceflights. (Astronauts used it to keep pens and other items from floating in the weightless environment.) Velcro remains on the cuffs of sleeves. It's also used for nameplates and patches.
Hatten's ideal uniform might save the Army a few more pennies.
"I don't mind the insignia Velcro on the sleeve pockets, but why would I need Velcro for my name tape and U.S. Army tapes?" he asked. "Am I going to change my name and join a different army? Why not let us sew these items on the uniform, along with the patrol cap? That's cheaper, more durable and reduces the possibility of having your uniform items stolen or tampered with."
The Army, Dawson said, hears soldiers like Hatten. It's aware of continuing complaints about Velcro and will take them into account when redesigning uniforms in the future.
It's a long known issue with velcro. Understanding the limitations of a component is part of product development, this shouldnt have been a surprise to them and probably wasnt thus the reason for the draw string.
variablebinary
06-18-10, 16:36
Pic of change
http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/acu_buttons.jpg
Personally I am looking forward to the pen pocket change. I've had pens fly out my pocket and snag on stuff. Very annoying
http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/acu_pen_pcoket.jpg
Aaaaannnnnnnnnd the old becomes new again.
Fairly obvious that whoever designed the new uni was never in the field much. Mud, sand, noise etc.
Fairly obvious that whoever designed the new uni was never in the field much. Mud, sand, noise etc.
I had always wondered about this
Aside from the camouflage fiasco, velcro was the absolutely worst part of the ACU. Every bit of velcro needs to be removed from the uniform. Sew everything back on, including the buttons. Conventional forces do not need the ability to quickly sterilize uniforms. Velcro has done nothing but make Soldiers look like slobs.
Oh come F'in on already, really?
I had so very little use for cargo pockets, it wasn't funny. Anything more then a map in there would be a royal pain in the ass.
How about making the pocket more substantial, and sewn on to stay. How about a clam shell type affair, with an oversize flap that is just sewn on at the corners? Other wise you can just take them off.
I would think the shock cord does a better job of holding items in, and the Velcro is simply to hold the flap down.
I don't see how its any harder to sew on a square of Velcro, then a button, either, keep a small piece with you, or cannibalize another piece, and use the same needle and thread, and get to it.
I blew out many of buttons, trying to close them on a stuffed cargo pocket, usually when I was told to "just put it in your cargo pocket". And it takes for ever to button, where as the shock cord, would hold it in fine, and if anything a bigger piece of Velcro, can just be slapped down to shut it.
Noise? Really, if the enemy is that close to hear it, is there really anything in your pocket that you need that bad?
I generally kept as little in my BDU pockets as possible, so it wouldn't rub me raw underneath my LBE, or what not.
The ACU's sure do have a few shortcoming, what uniform has been perfect when first issued? But, they are not nearly as bad as everyone says.
If I understood it correctly, all the Velcro patches, name tapes, and branch tapes, were specifically implemented to address Soldiers complaints of the cost of sewing all that on, every uniform they own. This way, one, could just transfer it all from one uniform to the other.
I would just assume sew it all on, maybe making it an authorized option.
And, yea, I wear them every day.
Bob
Oh come F'in on already, really?
I had so very little use for cargo pockets, it wasn't funny. Anything more then a map in there would be a royal pain in the ass.
How about making the pocket more substantial, and sewn on to stay. How about a clam shell type affair, with an oversize flap that is just sewn on at the corners? Other wise you can just take them off.
I would think the shock cord does a better job of holding items in, and the Velcro is simply to hold the flap down.
I don't see how its any harder to sew on a square of Velcro, then a button, either, keep a small piece with you, or cannibalize another piece, and use the same needle and thread, and get to it.
I blew out many of buttons, trying to close them on a stuffed cargo pocket, usually when I was told to "just put it in your cargo pocket". And it takes for ever to button, where as the shock cord, would hold it in fine, and if anything a bigger piece of Velcro, can just be slapped down to shut it.
Noise? Really, if the enemy is that close to hear it, is there really anything in your pocket that you need that bad?
I generally kept as little in my BDU pockets as possible, so it wouldn't rub me raw underneath my LBE, or what not.
The ACU's sure do have a few shortcoming, what uniform has been perfect when first issued? But, they are not nearly as bad as everyone says.
If I understood it correctly, all the Velcro patches, name tapes, and branch tapes, were specifically implemented to address Soldiers complaints of the cost of sewing all that on, every uniform they own. This way, one, could just transfer it all from one uniform to the other.
I would just assume sew it all on, maybe making it an authorized option.
And, yea, I wear them every day.
Bob
There's some loud ass velcro out there. I got out right when these were being fielded so I personally have no experience. When dropped off to set up an LP/OP with less than a squad you observe all light and noise discipline.
Same deal as caeser,I got out in February 05 and my unit hadn't received them yet. But one of my concerns about the leg pocket has always been if you do have to carry something of substantial size and/or weight that Velcro would not hold up to the task.
I always figured, that's what the shock cord was for, the flap was more cosmetic then anything.
As far as noise and light discipline, well, that's sounds all good, but many guys who preach that, make more noise on an LP/OP then a plumber. Squirming around, BSing, hell just your kit rubbing against itself, makes plenty of noise.
How many pouches on your kit close with Velcro? Or zippers, that are all but impossible to repair in the field?
How about just building them, so the pockets and crotches don't blow out.
Now pin on badges and awards? That's just gay.
Bob
Admittedly, I've usually always had a better place to put things other than my cargo pockets. I might stuff a map in there, but anything else causes chafing.
If you have the time, you can open a velcro pocket fairly quietly.
Regarding cost: well first of all, my BDUs lasted, on average, about three times longer than ACUs do. Money saved. When my BDUs did wear out, I took the patches off and sewed them onto the new uniform. Money saved. Also, for any Soldier, there were only six mandatory patches that were required to be sewn on: 2 on the collar, name and Army tapes, SSI and U.S. Flag. At about $1/patch, that's about $6 per uniform. Everything else was voluntary. Money saved.
Is it possible to blow out a button? Of course, but it's much more likely that your velcro will wear out long before a button would let loose.
But what really gets me is fuzzy and frayed patches, and name tapes so kinked up you can't even read the Soldier's name properly. Sleeves and front chest pockets that won't stay closed on a two month old uniform. We look like a bunch of unprofessional clowns now.
Velcro has its uses, but for the most part, it is an abomination on a military uniform.
high tech isn't always the best tech :D
the buttons look cooler too.
KRY,
On the cost issue, didn't say I agree with it, only that, supposedly that was one of the complaints the Army recieved about teh BDU's.
I would much rather have my stuff sewn on.
Everything else you mention, I haven't seen. I've been wearing the same uniforms for over 2 years now.
Bob
variablebinary
06-19-10, 20:52
I like velcro.
No sewing
No starch
No shoe polish
I like velcro.
No sewing
No starch
No shoe polish
Yes, but when our lot have only sewing to do, I can see some folly in that. I don't see why having to keep US Army tapes in velcro form makes sense, for the three occupations with a tangible need for sanitization, the nametapes don't make much real sense.
I really like the velcro on the sleeves, and they did well to introduce a uniform with a mandarin collar, so the uniform itself wasn't a complete flop, and if made in a better pattern from the start a large number of these complaints wouldn't have surfaced as abruptly, but the uniform as a whole was so deficient, the relatively minor errors made in choice of contsruction were just part of an overall very disliked uniform.
The only thing that's been horribly not-durable on our side of the house has been FROG uniforms, but the only reason this is tolerated is because they're organizational not personal items, but when soldiers are being asked to constantly replace a fragile work uniform, I can see how that adds to the discontent.
Even now seeing soldiers on the streets (in a civilian setting) the uniform either looks like the individual soldier poured a decent amount of time into the appearance, or it looks like absolute crap, I feel for you guys.
Gee, I thought they capitalized Soldier these days...
I'm with variable, same as his last one about the pattern. I don't think the pattern or the uniform is as bad as anyone says it is. Certainly, its not perfect, but what uniform is?
As noted, the Velcro tapes and patches, was an effort to reduce costs to the Soldier, not sanitizing. One or two sets of patches can be moved from uniform to uniform, now no one seems to like that.
I spent years starching uniforms and spit shining boots, most real Soldiers, Infantry types, hated it, and only did it, because, right or wrong, it was viewed as a measure of professionalism.
The Army, finally now, is getting away from that BS, attempting to emphasize warrior skills, and not parade ground looks. Now everyone is complaining about that:rolleyes:
Originally, BDU's, were not supposed to be starched, either. Everyone did it anyway. They also started out with issues, that took time to correct. I'm sure everyone hated them, when they were first issued.
I'll tell you what, I sure as hell would not want to go back to 2 separate field uniforms.
Bob
variablebinary
06-21-10, 02:09
I'm with variable, same as his last one about the pattern. I don't think the pattern or the uniform is as bad as anyone says it is. Certainly, its not perfect, but what uniform is?
I dont dislike the pattern or uniform type. As a child of the 80's, I certainly have fond memories of woodland BDU's, but I do not think we should go backwards to BDU's (And thats a big hell no to starch and polish.
If you have to wear woodland, then do it with ACU's, not BDU's
http://home.comcast.net/~firearmspics/sfacuwooland1.JPG
I dont dislike the pattern or uniform type. As a child of the 80's, I certainly have fond memories of woodland BDU's, but I do not think we should go backwards to BDU's (And thats a big hell no to starch and polish.
If you have to wear woodland, then do it with ACU's, not BDU's
I want to be clear. In no way am I advocating a return to BDUs. After wearing ACUs since 2005, I occasionally put on BDUs to turkey hunt or something and I am instantly reminded of the improvements of the uniform design and fit over BDUs.
The point I was trying to make is that the whole ACU reasoning, testing, and fielding was a screw-up of Biblical proportions. Someone wanted that uniform and it didn't matter what the results were, we were going to get that uniform. The whole situation is shrouded with impropriety.
In the last five or six years, the Army has been fielding solutions to problems that didn't really exist, most particularly with uniforms. But it sure has made a bunch of people and companies a lot of money, and at the risk of Soldiers' lives, no less.
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