View Full Version : your choice of 2 SHTF handguns plz!
hi to everyone,
this topic surely has been discussed quite a bit, nevertheless i'm interested in your choice of 2 SHTF handguns.
as i live in europe, i'm sadly not allowed to possess more than two handguns.
i thought of going with two different calibers, so i can switch to whatever the situation demands.
as a platform for the .45, i was going to get a HK45 (preferably in the tactical configuration, once that will be released, for use with cans), only heard good things about it, HK is a reputable manufacturer, ergonomics are good with my hands. only con is the low capacity.
for the second caliber i haven't quite decided between 9mm or .40SW, maybe .357SIG (though i guess there's no need really for that, as the .45 already covers the "big-hole-maker").
what do you guys think of the HK45 for a SHTF/zombie scenario?
and what second caliber/gun do you recommend?
reliability is of course a must, as well as handling. keep in mind that in a SHTF scenario, concealed carry doesn't really matter, so large frame guns are no problem. money isn't either, if your life depends on it.
happy posting!
Pumpkinheaver
06-20-10, 11:26
A good 9mm and a good .22 are my main 2. Both due to ammo availability. (mm for SD and the .22 for collection of game should the need arise.
Without a doubt, the G17 is a must for anyone.
For 45? I'm running the M&P right now and it's been flawless for the first 1000 rounds. I've got no experience with anything HK makes.
In Europe, it probably to stick with 9 mm-- getting a G19 and G17 makes a lot of sense; if you want to go with 2 calibers, a 9 mm P30 and HK45 would also be a good option.
good point, i haven't thought about the .22 at all, but for hunting it surely is suitable!
luckily i'm allowed to own as many long guns as i want, so i would probably go hunting with one of them.
willowofwisp
06-20-10, 11:47
If i were to choose two guns for SHTF i would choose a g18c..and a .45 revolver of some sort
If I could only own two handguns, it'd be two of the same. Probably 2 Glock 19s.
It's nice to have a duplicate backup gun for training classes.
You can share mags between the guns.
Since they are the same caliber, you can only worry about stocking one caliber of ammo.
Two G19s. One to use, and one as a backup in case your primary is damaged, stolen,....etc.
I'd have another HK45 (should've NEVER sold mine) and my Ruger Mark III.
what are your thoughts on caliber? given the .45, is there still a need for a .40? or would you go with the 9mm?
or do you think the ballistical advantages of the .40 do outweigh the difference in felt recoil?
Probably two Glock 17's for me. Especially in Europe.
Parts should be readily available, I would think more so than an American design.
9mm should be plenty available in Europe, and is a good performer.
Mags, gear and accessories should be readily available.
You would have commonality of mags, and gear in case of failure of one pistol allowing the remaining pistol to continue to run, as well as parts commonality with both so that in a worst case scenario you may be able to create one working pistol out of two dead ones, or in the case of friends or family you would be able to utilize/share mags, ammo, etc.
Other options I'd consider would be other popular European Full-Size Mil/LE 9mm offerings, like those from Beretta, H&K, SIG, and CZ. But I find these generally more expensive and of more complex (DA/SA) design requiring greater skill to detail strip or replace parts.
-RD62
I would have my 1911 and a ruger redhawk in 44 magnum to take care of beasties and the such
what are your thoughts on caliber? given the .45, is there still a need for a .40? or would you go with the 9mm?
or do you think the ballistical advantages of the .40 do outweigh the difference in felt recoil?
The caliber isn't really that important. In Europe, it is going to be MUCH easier and cheaper to get ahold of 9mm ammunition. The differences between the 9mm, .40, and .45 are very minor in the grand scheme of things. Pick a pistol that is reliable and durable, then pick one that you shoot well, and then shoot the crap out of it. Much easier to do that in 9mm.
The .40 beats up on guns. There are only a few pistols that handle the .40 well such as the S&W M&P, H&K USP/P2000/P30, or Sig P229. If you insist on shooting .40, pick the right pistol to shoot it out of.
what are your thoughts on caliber? given the .45, is there still a need for a .40? or would you go with the 9mm?
or do you think the ballistical advantages of the .40 do outweigh the difference in felt recoil?
I personally do not ever see the need for .40S&W. It was a solution to smaller framed FBI agents having difficulty with 10mm offerings. American LE then latched onto it and it's popularity grew.
I do not see it really does anything better than 9mm or .45ACP, and I would think in Europe .40S&W would be the hardest of the three to find ammo for.
For me .40S&W recoils a little sharper than 9mm. It's not a problem, but for new shooters, those that shoot rarely, etc. I've found it can be a little more intimidating and therefore harder to get good hits with.
.45ACP is a great round and I love it, but to get the same number of rounds in the mag you get a much larger grip and heavier package.
I feel you would be best served with two like pistols in the same caliber. Either two 9mm's or two .45ACP's. At most I might go with one full-size and one smaller model of the same pistol, but then you may begin to loose some parts commonality.
I do not think .40S&W really has any ballistic advantage over 9mm or .45ACP.
-RD62
Gutshot John
06-20-10, 12:46
Glock 17 and 1911...preferably two of each.
as i live in europe, i'm sadly not allowed to possess more than two handguns.
Do you feel comfortable stating what country you live in, what the gun laws are like, and what are the popular guns of other shooters you know there?
Me personally, I'd go with a Glock 19 and a 26 or 17.
pick'n just two pistols stinks...for a shtf / zombie, you gotta go w/ a glock 9.
My pick is 1911 & a colt python. I would then beg for a .22...threaded.
glock 19 or 17, and a .22 conversion :cool:
sure. i live in germany, and the gun laws are pretty restrictive. as a hunter i'm allowed to possess two handguns max, and long guns as many as i want.
carry is NEVER allowed, weaponlights are forbidden, silencers need a special permit.
so far, so bad.
HKs and glocks are very common, as are SIGs and 1911s. nearly no M&Ps.
do you generally think there is need for a caliber like .357SIG? would it ever make sense in a SHTF environment? i guess not, due to lack of ammo.
what are your thoughts on the glock 34/35? do you see any advantage of the longer slides?
do you generally think there is need for a caliber like .357SIG?
No.
what are your thoughts on the glock 34/35? do you see any advantage of the longer slides?
The longer slide gives you a longer sight radius. That allows you to make more precision shots, especially at longer ranges. However, it also takes longer to align your sights, and if you aren't very steady you can be thrown off target easier. In my experience, the 4" barrel is the ideal length as it offers the best combination of speed, shot precision, and forgiveness if you jerk the trigger.
Magic_Salad0892
06-20-10, 14:13
A Glock 7.
It's a ceramic pistol made in Germany, it'll go right through metal detectors.
lol. fyi, glocks are made in Austria. AND in which SHTF scenario do i have to go through metal detectors?
€: oops, awkward! i really was into the Die Hard movies, but i must have forgotten bout that glock somehow!
A Glock 7.
It's a ceramic pistol made in Germany, it'll go right through metal detectors.
How about ammo ;)?Oh, and Glocks are Austrian, not German
A Glock 7.
It's a ceramic pistol made in Germany, it'll go right through metal detectors.
I got your Die Hard 2 reference. I thought it was funny.
I still vote for 2 Glock 17's.
-RD62
1st HK P30L ( if I had a 45acp that would be my 1st choice )
2nd Ruger 22/45 , ( railed with a simple red dot ) that Id like to get threaded one day for a suppressor
Either two G17s or two G19s, and the appropriate Advantage Arms .22 kit.
I'd likely go with two G19s since they CCW easier than the 17s.
One gun for everything? A G21SF, then get a 10mm upper, and barrels for .40 and .357Sig, and an AA kit, this gives you a five caliber shootin pistol, even more if you get weird and buy a 9X25 or 9X23 barrel.
But you'd still want the G19 anyway.
A SHTF handgun? What separates that type of handgun from a handgun used in a civilized society that has not collapsed?
Either way, this forum will almost always tout the Glock and M&P, for many reasons.
what are your thoughts on caliber? given the .45, is there still a need for a .40?
I think it's the other way around. With the 40 in full swing, why is the 45 still here?
I do not think .40S&W really has any ballistic advantage over 9mm or .45ACP.
I do know that some 40sw ammo manufacturers (ie: Federal) have more energy than their 45acp loadings. But we are not going to resort to "moar power meens moar damij" arguments. Just an observation.
-------
If you need a pistol that you can get easy ammo for when your life turns upside down, it's hard to say no to 9mm, being that it's the Earth Standard.
Get a 9mm smg while you're at it.:D
arizonaranchman
06-20-10, 15:30
A good 9mm and a good .22 are my main 2. Both due to ammo availability. (mm for SD and the .22 for collection of game should the need arise.
Ditto...
It's hard to argue this statement. In hard times - which I think unfortunately lie ahead of us - the availability of ammo whether to purchase or even scrounge if necessary is paramount. No other ammo is more prevalent than the .22 rimfire. The 9mm is a close second I'd dare say. Neither is ideal for self defense, but the 9mm is plenty good in trained hands and with good ammo.
If you like the HK you'll hear no argument from me. Very well made. Sig Sauer ditto. Either 9mm or 45 acp.
Any way you slice it at least one of your handguns should be a 9mm. The .40 is not even on my list as availability is nothing near the 9 or 45 acp in difficult times.
Dependent on projected availability of ammo.
Those who recommend a 9 and a 22, or two 9s: what if all that's available is ball ammo? I think we all are familiar what an awesome show-stopper 9 mm FMJ is...
If one's SHTF scenario implies unlimited supply of proven quality JHP loads, then is this really a topic worth discussing? Glocks, M&Ps, HKs, well-set 1911s, Sigs etc.
If SHTF scenario is "whatever ammo you can get", then I'd make sure I had two different calibers and one of them - 45, just in case all I get is ball ammo.
gtmtnbiker98
06-20-10, 16:17
Easy, HK45 and HK45c, covers all potential scenarios - although only one caliber.
The .40 is not even on my list as availability is nothing near the 9 or 45 acp in difficult times.
Don't know where you're looking but 40 is every where. It's 45 that's hard to grab.
If SHTF scenario is "whatever ammo you can get", then I'd make sure I had two different calibers and one of them - a 5.56mm rifle, just in case all I get is ball ammo.
Fixed.
RogerinTPA
06-20-10, 16:45
For caliber, the 9mm gets the nod for it's universal worldwide availability.
For the US: M&P9 and 9c
Worldwide: G17 andG19 for it's universal availability in parts.
G20 & G21...
Interchangeable parts and both are show stoppers...
I personally know nothing about any of the Sig pistols but it seems to me if I was Legally limited to 2 pistols I would consider the Sig 250. (http://www.sigsauer.com/Products/ShowCatalogProduct.aspx?categoryid=54)
If I understand it correctly you only register the fire controls and could possibly (depending on local laws) have enough parts for multiple calibers/ configurations.
Just a thought,
Tom
my way would be - glock 17primary= 19 backup or 21sf primary=30sf backup, almost 20years running these guns and i still find them THE combat handgun to go to always. current count is 12, all 9's an 45's, i am financially able to own any handgun availabe, and it is always GLOCK by choice. thanks T
GermanSynergy
06-20-10, 19:05
Glock 17 and 19.
Where in Germany are you, bro?
If I could only own two handguns, it'd be two of the same. Probably 2 Glock 19s.
That is what I was thinking also.
:cool:
bushmasterar15
06-20-10, 19:54
Glock 17 & 21 for me.
Beat Trash
06-20-10, 20:20
sure. i live in germany, and the gun laws are pretty restrictive.
carry is NEVER allowed, weaponlights are forbidden, silencers need a special permit.
so far, so bad.
I find it interesting you can not have a weapon light, yet can have a silencer with a special permit.
I would get either a Glock or an HK P30, which ever you prefer. I'd get a spare of the first.
I own Glocks models 17, 19, 26. I owned a Glock 34, but sold it. It really didn't do anything for me that my Glock 17 wasn't already doing.
Of the Glock line, I favor the Glock 19. I like it so much that I bought Glock 19's and set them aside for my kids.
I have been carrying an issued M&P 9mm for over 4 years now. I like it alot. But I don't know how easy they are to obtain in Germany, or how parts and service is for them in Europe.
If I were in your position, I'd get a pair of Glock 19's. They would use the same ammunition, magazines, holsters, ect. Think of the second gun as a spare.
I would stay with 9mm due to the availability of 9mm ammunition in Europe vs. other calibers.
Get a good 22lr rifle for small game. Save your allotment of two handguns for defensive usage.
SW-Shooter
06-20-10, 22:05
No other than the Glock 21 SF & Glock 30SF.
sure. i live in germany, and the gun laws are pretty restrictive. as a hunter i'm allowed to possess two handguns max, and long guns as many as i want.
carry is NEVER allowed, weaponlights are forbidden, silencers need a special permit.
so far, so bad.
HKs and glocks are very common, as are SIGs and 1911s. nearly no M&Ps.
do you generally think there is need for a caliber like .357SIG? would it ever make sense in a SHTF environment? i guess not, due to lack of ammo.
what are your thoughts on the glock 34/35? do you see any advantage of the longer slides?
Ah Germany. Beautiful country, spent two years there from '92-'94 with the US Army. Back then you still couldn't own hollowpoints, at least you got those back.
If I was you, I'd still pick the G19 just because its my favorite Glock model whether your going to conceal it or not. The other would be a G17 or G34 because I like Glocks more than any other design. But an HK P30 or 45 would be a good choice too.
i live in baden-wurttemberg, that's down in the south.
as i said, silencers need a special permit, which is very unlikely to obtain ever. so one could just say they are forbidden as well.
any glock in 9mm really seems to be the answer to my second caliber question, as parts surely are widely available, as well as 9mm ammo. and if i'm in the mood, i could store a few thousand rounds, shouldn't be too expensive.
as for the HK45, what trigger option would you go for? the LEM, for KISS principle? oh, and does anybody know if there will ever be a tactical version of the HK45? i read something about it on wikipedia a while ago, though noone could confirm that? i even heard they stopped the production of the HK45, at least in some german forums.
Combat_Diver
06-21-10, 01:20
xamoel, Gruss Gott
I've also lived in Germay several times(9yrs total), Wiesbadten, Bad Tolz and Stuttgart. I would consider first a 9mm either a Glock, HK (P8) or a Walther P1/P38 as spare parts and mags would be more available. When I PCSd to Germany last in 2000 they had just changed the regulations not allow us to take pistols over. However, they had just shipped my M1911 in .45 with Colt .22LR conversion over.:D
In a true SHTF senerio law and order break down and I would use every technological advantage that I could. It would seem that you would have more of a problem with massed starvation then anything else.
Tschuess,
CD
A good 9mm and a good .22 are my main 2. Both due to ammo availability. (mm for SD and the .22 for collection of game should the need arise.
Good call!
I'll take my M&P-9mm and Browning BuckMark .22LR.
....can I still keep my S&W 4506?
Easy, HK45 and HK45c, covers all potential scenarios - although only one caliber.
Consolidating calibers makes sense. And those are two great choices for .45ACP.
CarbonCycles
06-21-10, 08:23
G19 & a well broken-in 1911
trappernana
06-21-10, 08:32
Glock 30 and Kimber 1911 both are 45 ACP,one caliber
jasonhgross
06-21-10, 08:37
Two glock 19's and a 22 LR kit.
I think two 19s would be a good choice. One Glock and one Smith & Wesson. Get a .22 conversion for the Glock and you have three guns for the price of two that should do anything a handgun should do.
why is everyone recommending the 19, not the 17? for CC i could understand that you need a smaller package, but what other advantages does the 19 have that the 17 lacks?
and doens't anybody know something about the HK 45 Tactical? or is it just a myth?
JeepDriver
06-21-10, 12:34
Glock 22 and Ruger 22/45
Common ammo, easier to pick up and or trade for.
P30 9 MM and HK45. I own both. Now the HK45C holds 8 rounds. Plus the 10 round mags work.
motorsporting
06-21-10, 14:42
Glock 17 and 1911...preferably two of each.
+1 Ammo, equipment, and spare parts abound for both of these. I might go for a Beretta 92 instead of the Glock, but either are all over the world.
GermanSynergy
06-21-10, 15:13
why is everyone recommending the 19, not the 17? for CC i could understand that you need a smaller package, but what other advantages does the 19 have that the 17 lacks?
and doens't anybody know something about the HK 45 Tactical? or is it just a myth?
If the 19 doesn't fit your hands, then the 17 or a 34 would be a good choice. The beauty of the Glock design is that you can, if necessary, replace parts on your own without much trouble. Also, being limited to two handguns (ekelhaft und blot :rolleyes: ), the 9mm Glock is pretty much a platform that will last for a long time, with a steady ammunition supply.
I'm from Rheinland-Pfalz here.... :cool:
I would go with the 9mm and .22LR combo that many have already indicated. Both ammo types would be widely available in Europe for years to come, the 9mm would certainly work in the SD role while the .22LR could be used for small game and training. If you needed more than the 9mm for hunting larger game, you would have your rifles anyhow.
As for what 9mm, I would go with one that is typically used by your local law enforcement or military units. I guess that would mean the USP, Sig 2022, etc as you would have a better chance of getting spare parts when the getting got bad. I would stick to the medium/compact frame pistols for your handgun as they would be easier to conceal on your person once rule of law fell.
As far as the .22 pistol, I would be looking for a nice simple .22LR revolver like the Smith 63 kit gun or a simple Ruger Mark II.
It is actually an interesting post, as despite all the posts of SHTF preparation I have seen, this is the first one coming from Europe.
The HK45 looks like a great gun and sounds like it is your personal favorite, but I would really wonder how easy it would be to find .45ACP ammo in Germany if a second dark ages were to awaken.
Glock 22 and Ruger 22/45
Common ammo, easier to pick up and or trade for.
How common is .40S&W in Europe?
+1 Ammo, equipment, and spare parts abound for both of these. I might go for a Beretta 92 instead of the Glock, but either are all over the world.
The Beretta is a very viable choice, but would be harder to work on if needed.
-RD62
1911 in .45, and a 22 kit
9mm glock flavor with a 22 kit.
3 calibers, "four" guns :cool:
Pick your favorite and buy two that are identical.
The problem with buying two different pistols (19/26, 19/17, 17/26) is that if the smaller one fails, the mags won't fit the larger one. I've yet to manage getting my G26 mags to work in my G19...
Redundancy would seem to be a good thing at times.
TannerBoyl
06-21-10, 17:14
My first choice would be a SIG P226R in .40S&W. I've done the majority of my training with it, so I feel the most confident with it in my hands. While I prefer shooting my P220s (.45ACP), I have more .40S&W self-defense ammo than any other caliber. With the price of .45ACP, I don't think that'll change anytime soon.
My second choice would be a Glock 17. I've owned one for years and I shoot it decently. Its so simple and effective.
Glock 17 and another Glock 17... if you hit what you're aiming at caliber doesn't matter IMO, and 9mm is the only one that's easy to get a hold of just about anywhere. Remember 124 + 124 > 230.
I say, one up your buddies with twin S&W Model 57 .41 Magnums. On a serious note: Twin 9mm Glocks 17 or 19.
Pumpkinheaver
06-21-10, 21:36
How common is .40S&W in Europe?
That's exactly why I picked 9mm and .22lr. Not sure how popular the .40 is over there.
It is actually an interesting post, as despite all the posts of SHTF preparation I have seen, this is the first one coming from Europe.
The HK45 looks like a great gun and sounds like it is your personal favorite, but I would really wonder how easy it would be to find .45ACP ammo in Germany if a second dark ages were to awaken.
that may be due to the confidence most people still seem to have in our governments and the police/LE etc. another factor is probably the difficulty of getting your hands on any gun suitable for SD, which for my part is vital in post-government time. many germans see guns as a threat to their life, not as something to protect it, behold the massacres at erfurt or winnenden. that's how one mentally challenged person can bring a whole group of (gun loving) people in disrepute. some politicians even want to ban all calibers larger than 9mm for private use, just like in GB.
your point on ammunition though is correct, i don't know any police unit that uses the .45, so i would need to get my own stash.
I would choose a revolver and a semi
Glock 17 9mm and The Judge. That is assuming that i get to stockpile ammo for the judge in case of a SHTF scenario
Magic_Salad0892
06-22-10, 02:52
Two Gen4 Glock 17s.
(BTW: I'm glad somebody got the reference.)
Magic_Salad0892
06-22-10, 02:52
I would choose a revolver and a semi
Glock 17 9mm and The Judge. That is assuming that i get to stockpile ammo for the judge in case of a SHTF scenario
Sorry for the double post....
but why would you want a Taurus Judge?
ROCKET20_GINSU
06-22-10, 04:32
I don't mean to jump on the Glock band wagon but a Glock 19 is a great place to start for a pistol that can reasonably do pretty much anything you ask it to. As I type this I have my G19 next to me that serves double duty as one of my CCW guns and my night stand gun. Currently its equipped with Heinie straight 8's, crimson trace LG417(stippled by myself) and Surefire X200B. Add an Advantage arms .22 LR training kit and you have a cheap way to practice, and take small game if necessary.
For the second pistol, Sig Sauer P250. I have no personal experience with this gun but I really admire the modularity of the design. This is the one gun that allows you to own many guns. With one trigger-hammer unit (technically 1 gun) you can configure it in multiple ways as a compact, sub compact and full size pistol chambered in 9mm, .40, .357 sig or .45 ACP. Just decide what frame sizes, and calibers you want to shoot and buy the appropriate frames, slide assemblies and magazines. Though, I would wait to purchase this pistol until the Federal Air Marshals run it for a while and give it their field tested seal of approval. If the FAMs are satisfied with this gun I would seriously consider it, especially if I had a 2 gun limit.
If you are not fond of the Sig P250, I would go with a J-frame in .357 mag w/ CT grips, or if you had no intention of hiding it a S&W 686. That way you could have a very light, reliable, discrete, carry anywhere pistol that could shoot .357 or .38's. I'm not sure how common this caliber is in Europe so if it is rare please disregard.
I know many argue from the 2 is 1, 1 is none perspective and I agree with that to an extent. But in my humble experience most Glock 9mm's are as close to bomb proof as pistols get, so you may not "need" a second. Additionally, an exceptionally modular pistol like the P250 gives you the ability to essentially own multiple guns in multiple calibers. In the unlikely event that you were scavenging/trading for pistol ammo, if you had multiple different caliber frame/slide/mag setups for the P250 you could be much more flexible in your ammo search. I don't know about everyone else but from time to time I just like to have a bit of fun and shoot something different than my Glocks, the P250 in multiple frame sizes / calibers would theoretically work great in this role as well.
GU
If I were you, I would find a platform you like and stick with that.
NC Buckeye
06-22-10, 07:11
For me if I think the S might HTF... Glock 19, If I know it will Glock 17
Moose-Knuckle
06-22-10, 07:57
My G19 and G17.
Surprised someone has not mentioned a revolver yet. I have a GP-100, during SHTF it's nice knowing I can shoot either .357mag or .38 spl.
since you guys have been quite convincing, i think i'll stick to the .45 and a 9mm.
now would you rather get a HK P30 in 9x19, or a Glock 17/19/... in 9x19, and why?
i see the standard frame glock has a larger mag, but what about the rest? any advice you can give me on this decision?
Surprised someone has not mentioned a revolver yet.
At least three people have. Someone mentioned a Smith 63, someone else mentioned a Judge and I mentioned a Smith 19.
hi to everyone,
this topic surely has been discussed quite a bit, nevertheless i'm interested in your choice of 2 SHTF handguns.
as i live in europe, i'm sadly not allowed to possess more than two handguns.
i thought of going with two different calibers, so i can switch to whatever the situation demands.
... keep in mind that in a SHTF scenario, concealed carry doesn't really matter, so large frame guns are no problem. money isn't either, if your life depends on it.
happy posting!
Going back to the original criteria, I'd say a 9mm Glock and then something more concealable - like a S&W 642 or Kahr PM9 - would be my choice. I would disagree that having an easily concealable handgun isn't necessary in a "SHTF" scenario. There are many easily envisioned scenarios where one might need to be more discreet even if surrounded by chaos. Guns draw unwanted attention, including and especially during crises. Authorities tend to be more attuned to, and less forgiving of, openly carried guns regardless of legalities during bad times.
Moose-Knuckle
06-22-10, 13:30
At least three people have. Someone mentioned a Smith 63, someone else mentioned a Judge and I mentioned a Smith 19.
Must have skimed over those...
Well read my "2,000" round challenge post and you'll know why this is my frist choice:
1) Ruger P95 9mm (Most reliable brick I have ever seen)
2) A single six in .22LR
The reasoning for #1 is I have tried to kill one of the three P95's I have and it won't die on me; I'm still trying to kill her since I started Christmas of '06. Also 9mm is a military cartridge and the ammo will be available long after .45 ACP, .357 magnum, and all other rounds other than .22 LR will (Maybe the old 7.62X25 tok too, they made a shit ton of that stuff and you can still get it cheap).
The second choice is simple; in the SHTF scenario .22 Lr is going to be the most available ammo world wide, and that is a big plus as time goes on. What good is your .40 (Worst cartridge ever designed in my opinion; not so much designed as it was compromised from several other cartridges, cut down for pussies and then packaged as "Stopping power of .45 ACP, but high capacity of 9mm" crap; with absolutely no fact to back up the audacious calims, and no real world kill/ballistic info to show any real reason to like the caretridge), .454, or .500 when the ammo is all gone (And it will go very fast in SHTF scenario!!!!!). .22 LR is the most versatile cartridge known to man; more people have been put down by her, and more people will be put down by her than any other cartridge. It is the most prevelant ammo on this planet, and a good flat shooter. Anyone can shoot .22 LR very accurately and the recoil is nothing, follow up shots are easy and quick. They don't make a loud report (Compared to toher cartridges) and they shoot pretty darn far out as far as handgun distances are concerned.
Thats my .02 cents.
Any gun that is silenced; as noise is detrimental to survival in SHTF scenarios. Good thing a silencer can be fashioned pretty easily and quickly if necessary!
Bulldog1967
06-22-10, 14:21
M&P-9mm (x2)
since you guys have been quite convincing, i think i'll stick to the .45 and a 9mm.
now would you rather get a HK P30 in 9x19, or a Glock 17/19/... in 9x19, and why?
i see the standard frame glock has a larger mag, but what about the rest? any advice you can give me on this decision?
Have you held a P30? When I was looking for a new 9MM. The P30 felt the best in my hand. Which I own. My next P30 will be P30L in 9MM or 40 S&W.
indeed i have, and it really feels good, though unfortunately i haven't had the chance yet to make a direct comparison of a gen4 glock vs the p30.
silencers are definitely something i want, it'll just take some time to figure out how to get the permit for them.
but the ergonomics aside, what other criteria tip the balance in favor of one of the two?
Lucky Strike
06-22-10, 14:43
My P30 9mm and.....I was going to say my GP100 but another poster made a convincing argument for a .22lr so I'll say my single six instead.
As others have mentioned ammo availability will be an issue if the SHTF. .22 probably makes sense as does a 9mm. Another thought would be a .357 Mag revolver as it also shoots .38 Special. I would bring my G19 and my S&W 686 Plus.
indeed i have, and it really feels good, though unfortunately i haven't had the chance yet to make a direct comparison of a gen4 glock vs the p30.
silencers are definitely something i want, it'll just take some time to figure out how to get the permit for them.
but the ergonomics aside, what other criteria tip the balance in favor of one of the two?
I went by how the P30 fit in my hand. While holding it. I thanked HK for making the pistol just for me. That's how it feels in my hand. I bought my P30 without firing it has 5000 rounds through.
i think before you make this decision we need more information
in particular:
1) what handgun do the local police in your area carry?
2) what is the standard issue sidearm for the German military?
i mention this for several reasons:
1) training: if for some reason, since you are not allowed to carry, something particularly bad were to happen and you were away from home and did not have access to your handguns, it is extremely conceivable that if weapons were recoverable it would be from the two sources I mentioned above...in that instance, being proficient in their use, familiar with their care, maintenance, and manual of arms could mean life or death
2) Compatibility of caliber: again, you may need more ammunition than you have...being able to use what is available on the local authorities should it become available is crucial
3) Compatibility of parts: spare magazines, trigger springs, what have you...the ability to scavenge parts and knowing how to replace them is extremely key....
for that reason my recommendation is this:
gun #1) whatever the police carry
gun #2) whatever the military carries
if they're the same, buy 2...
(for the same reason, in the U.S. I think it is extremely prudent for people to know what their local jurisdiction issues, and to be proficient in their use...in my case that means knowing how to use glocks...it's also not a bad idea to be proficient with the M9)
Since you are a hunter, you are entiteled to learn defense shooting even in Germany. Before you spend a fortune on guns, get a cheap used Glock 17
or Glock 19, spare parts and magazines, training ammo plus 200rds. premium defense ammo (test with at least 150rds!!) and invest in some defense
classes. I recommend Andy Stanford (http://www.opstraining.at/) who is coming to Austria in early August. The Magpul DVDs are a good
start to get first impressions how professional training works and which topics are covered.
And remember- no handgun is a real SHTF weapon. I'd rather have a double barrel shotgun than a puny handgun in a real SHTF situation.
Take a hard look at the Steyr AUG-Z, Sig 550, Arsenal AKs. Thats real SHTF weaponry. But its equally ineffective without professional
training.
But as far as the gun enthusiast answer is considered: Get a Glock 22* as its reliability is proofen, its way cheaper than Hk, and spare parts and
magazines are cheap to get everywhere. Most importantly get a G17 9mm upper, maybe a G31 .357 Sig (for hunting), an Uhl .22 upper and a
Hera carbine conversion kit. And voila- you have lost only one slot on your Waffenbesitzkarte but have an extremely versatile combination- from
.22 for plinking to 9mm for practice and defense, .40 for IPSC sport, .357 Sig for hunting and punching through things and the Hera stock for
fun at 100+ meters.
-------------------
*As for G17 vs. G22: in Germany its the law that you can own the bigger caliber and buy conversion uppers of less caliber- but not the
other way round.
well military uses the HK P7 or P8 i think, police probably the walther ppk or some other walthers. but i don't see walther as an option, really :p
as far as long guns go, i got a Benelli m4 s90, i haven't finally decided on rifles, i planned on going with the HK MR556 and 762, but i might just wait a bit till the bushmaster ACR (hopefully) will be for sale in germany.
or does everyone think the MR556 is superior to the ACR in every way (or not at all)?
HK45 and P30. Spare mags are already in my bug out bag.
i think before you make this decision we need more information
in particular:
1) what handgun do the local police in your area carry?
2) what is the standard issue sidearm for the German military?
Good point trio.
Police - HK P10 (I've also heard the P30 and Walther P99 are popular, as most of the SIG P6 (P225), HK P7, and Walther P5 models have been replaced) http://www.heckler-koch.de/HKWebText/detailProd/1925/120/4/21 I don't think the PP/PPK have been used for some time.
Military - HK P8 http://www.heckler-koch.de/HKWebText/detailProd/1925/121/4/21
If I went by what mine used? M9 Beretta of course (which I have one already) and the Glock 22 (as its "THE" cop gun in my area and .40 is the easiest round to find locally but I could get by with a Glock 17 or 19 just as easy).
LuckyGunner.com
06-23-10, 12:35
A lot of good points. I think I would go away from 2 of the same guns though. If you have say two Glock 17's. What if you can't find any 9mm ammo? If we are allowed a 22 conversion. I would lean towards a 9mm in a Polymer pistol of you choice, XDM 9 would be my personal choice - since I own one. Then I would go for a medium frame 357mag (S&W, Colt, Ruger)- I own a . It gives you a hunting pistol for medium sized game. Also you have a self defense weapon if 9mm ammo can't be found, etc.
concerning the .22lr: i have just read, that maybe i could be allowed to buy a THIRD gun, but only in tiny calibers like .22lr or 6.35mm. are there any dedicated .22lr or 6.35mm guns, that are worth considering for WTSHTF? i'm not talking about those sports guns, i don't expect them to withstand a lot of (ab)use.
Alaskapopo
06-25-10, 00:14
hi to everyone,
this topic surely has been discussed quite a bit, nevertheless i'm interested in your choice of 2 SHTF handguns.
as i live in europe, i'm sadly not allowed to possess more than two handguns.
i thought of going with two different calibers, so i can switch to whatever the situation demands.
as a platform for the .45, i was going to get a HK45 (preferably in the tactical configuration, once that will be released, for use with cans), only heard good things about it, HK is a reputable manufacturer, ergonomics are good with my hands. only con is the low capacity.
for the second caliber i haven't quite decided between 9mm or .40SW, maybe .357SIG (though i guess there's no need really for that, as the .45 already covers the "big-hole-maker").
what do you guys think of the HK45 for a SHTF/zombie scenario?
and what second caliber/gun do you recommend?
reliability is of course a must, as well as handling. keep in mind that in a SHTF scenario, concealed carry doesn't really matter, so large frame guns are no problem. money isn't either, if your life depends on it.
happy posting!
Two handguns.
1. My Wilson CQB in 45 acp
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Semi%20auto%20pistols/WilsonCQB.jpg
2. My Hamilton Bowen 5 shot 45. (bear gun)
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Revolvers/IM000872.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Revolvers/Bowen.jpg
The Wilson would be for zombies and the Bowen would be for boss fights with mutated mosters the size of a school bus.
lol nice thinking!
how many bullets do the wilson combat mags hold?
...dedicated .22lr or 6.35mm guns, that are worth considering for WTSHTF? i'm not talking about those sports guns, i don't expect them to withstand a lot of (ab)use.
S&W Model 18.
Ruger .22 semi-autos are generally pretty sturdy and accurate.
My father-in-law has a Beretta 87 that seems like a really nice gun.
After watching "The Book Of Eli", here I am wandering the wasteland, what would I carry for defense and hunting? Since I have a HK 45, I'd use that as a personal defense weapon and since that caliber can put a hurt on animals, this would a good choice.
The 2nd pick would either be a Glock 9/40, or HK P30 also in 9/40. A high capacity weapon for more then one adversary. These choices are based on minimal cleaning and utter reilability in crappy hostile environment. And since I live in the bay area, I'm heading towards Alcatraz now.;)
Alaskapopo
06-25-10, 12:50
lol nice thinking!
how many bullets do the wilson combat mags hold?
8 rounds in the standard mags and 10 in the extended mags.
Pat
Business_Casual
06-27-10, 11:49
Glock 17/19 and a .357 wheelgun. There are Glocks, parts and 9mm in abundance in my area. A wheelgun works without magazines and can take .38 or .357 and some come with a spare cylinder, IIRC, for 9mm. With full-power loads, six rounds of 357 can do a lot of work on animals, vehicles, etc.
B_C
Since carry is ruled out, I'd say stick with your HK 45 and get a Glock 17. You can't go wrong with either, but I think you'll find yourself shooting the 17 a lot more than the 45, I know I shoot my G-19 more (and better) than anything else.
mrwickwire
06-27-10, 23:05
HK45 is good, but the Glock 21 is better. You cannot beat the simplicity and reliability of a Glock. Although the HK 45 is good, it requires more maintenance than a Glock. The first thing that comes to mind is the o-ring on the barrel. Although the gun will fire w/o an o-ring, it is one more thing you need to have in your replacement parts kit and on your mind.
However, if an HK45 will be your first gun, then your second gun should be a Glock. I would recommend the Glock 17, but if you want to stick to the same caliber, then a Glock 21
The HK45 blows the G21 away, in my opinion.
My two? How bout two I have already?
Glock 19.
HK USP45F.
There ya go.
A 9mm Glock should be on everyones list IMO.
John_Wayne777
06-28-10, 07:00
what do you guys think of the HK45 for a SHTF/zombie scenario?
Zombies are not real, so discussing the selection of a handgun based on a scenario that involves zombies is, by default, ridiculous.
Further, a SHTF scenario is pretty much any scenario where you have to pull a handgun in an effort to stop the hostile actions of an attacker.
Zombie based discussions aren't really what we do here at M4C.
If your question is what weapon would most here select if they had to rely on a handgun and couldn't get a lot of spare parts, the answer will be a Glock 17. In the case of a complete breakdown of civil society the answer will be whatever they can get. If your question is what general purpose pistol should you buy since you can only have two handguns by law, the answer will probably still be Glock 17.
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