View Full Version : A (mostly) Useless Experiment. The G19 underwater.
QuietShootr
06-21-10, 09:54
I fired one of my G19s in a lake this weekend using WWB FMJ ammunition, and got some interesting data points - one useful, one 'who cares'.
Depth of the pistol was about 15", water depth about 4.5' - target was a 2"x8" stuck in the bottom silt and held at the top end by someone standing on the dock which was 1.5' over my head. Range was about 4 feet.
Data point 1 (the useless one): no bullets even came close to penetrating the board. They rotated and struck the board sideways, leaving bullet-shaped dents in the wood, and bounced out and were lost in the silt.
Data point 2: the first three rounds fired fine, after that the firing pin channel filled with water and began light-striking and misfiring. This continued even after I lifted the pistol out of the water and attempted to fire a new round. It took two recycles to get enough water out of the FP channel to make the pistol fire again.
Results: I never saw much need for the maritime spring cups. I am putting them in all my Glocks now. Not because I plan on doing over-the-beach insertions, but to address the problem that submerging the pistol could prevent it from firing immediately. This is not acceptable.
I was a little surprised that we couldn't get the bullets to penetrate the board even when we closed the range to about 2 feet. Same result, the bullets struck sideways and bounced out. The only perceptible difference was a slightly heavier blow transmitted to the hands of the person holding the far end of the board.
I Results: I never saw much need for the maritime spring cups. I am putting them in all my Glocks now. Not because I plan on doing over-the-beach insertions, but to address the problem that submerging the pistol could prevent it from firing immediately. This is not acceptable.
The only perceptible difference was a slightly heavier blow transmitted to the hands of the person holding the far end of the board.
Thats the exact reason I ued maritime cups in my Glock.
:eek: Just how was this other guy holding the board?!
QuietShootr
06-21-10, 10:14
Thats the exact reason I ued maritime cups in my Glock.
:eek: Just how was this other guy holding the board?!
We took turns.
Picture a dock with its surface about 2.5' over water level. The board was about 8' long, and the water was about 5'ish deep. We put the board down in the water and stuck the end into the silt, and held it down by hand at the top end. It wasn't dangerous. I was firing at the board about 1.5' below the surface of the water, about 3.5'-4.0' below where he was holding it.
Im sure you guys were safe. I just had a vision in my head with some redneck with a cig in his mouth (underwater) holding plywood with both hands in front of his chest yellin "Get R done! Ill let you know if you hit me!"....:D
gtmtnbiker98
06-21-10, 13:44
Im sure you guys were safe. I just had a vision in my head with some redneck with a cig in his mouth (underwater) holding plywood with both hands in front of his chest yellin "Get R done! Ill let you know if you hit me!"....:DSo, watcha tryin' to say?:D
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-21-10, 13:50
My next patent: Underwater plywood body armor.
QuietShootr
06-21-10, 13:58
My next patent: Underwater plywood body armor.
There appears to be no need for it if you can stay outside of about 10' or so :D
Thomas M-4
06-21-10, 14:00
Any pressure signs on the cases?
QuietShootr
06-21-10, 14:04
Any pressure signs on the cases?
No cases recovered, as the gun cycled underwater and the silt is quite deep.
QuietShootr
06-21-10, 14:10
I might add:
The concussion is unpleasant, even with only being submersed up to mid-chest. Moving closer to the board resulted in more concussion being reflected back toward the shooter. It isn't painful, exactly, but it is not pleasant. I cannot imagine having your head underwater and trying it. Supposedly there was a group of divers on the West Coast who were trying to do some hunting underwater with G17s - I can't see that being plausible unless you had a full dry helmet. I would think that any water-to-skull contact in proximity to the shot would be VERY unpleasant indeed.
ETA: Not to mention that any range at which you could kill something, you could simply stab your intended victim with a lot less drama and aural trauma.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-21-10, 14:31
ETA: Not to mention that any range at which you could kill something, you could simply stab your intended victim with a lot less drama and aural trauma.
Aural Trauma- that's the name for my next band.
How loud was it on deck if you didn't have an appendage in the water?
Data point 1 (the useless one): no bullets even came close to penetrating the board. They rotated and struck the board sideways, leaving bullet-shaped dents in the wood, and bounced out and were lost in the silt.
I was a little surprised that we couldn't get the bullets to penetrate the board even when we closed the range to about 2 feet. Same result, the bullets struck sideways and bounced out. The only perceptible difference was a slightly heavier blow transmitted to the hands of the person holding the far end of the board.
That's why the Russians developed these:
http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/sgalbra76/a_underwater.jpg
Regular bullets tumble or expand in water an slow down really quickly.
AmericanGunWorks
06-21-10, 15:29
Cool experiment.. if the water is clear enough videotaping it would be cool.
Maritime cups aren't a bad idea..
A situation I could think using them would be if my car got trapped in water somehow and I needed to break a window to get out and all I had was my G19. Do you think it'd break glass with barrel on glass contact?
Complication
06-21-10, 15:46
Can someone enlighten me as to exactly how maritime cups function?
Interesting experiment. would have thought you would at least have gotten through the plywood.
I don't know if there is any difference between the two, but I have
used a powerhead underwater once. The concussion didn't seem so bad in my body, only my ears. Felt like somebody had slapped my ear with a flat palm.
I see nothing "retarded" about having maritime spring cups in your pistol. You may never get into a situation where they are needed or would be beneficial, but if they time came, I wouldn't want to possibly end up 6 feet under because of not having the spring cups. I would see them being very useful in a flood type situation (flood, hurricanes, tornadoes, other natural disasters) where you most likely will end up in pretty deep water.
indeed.. having survived a flood and subsequent minor, brief social breakdown of my own, wearing a soaking wet pistol, concerned about looters and vandals and other opportunists, it makes perfect sense to me.
QuietShootr
06-21-10, 16:19
Cool experiment.. if the water is clear enough videotaping it would be cool.
Maritime cups aren't a bad idea..
A situation I could think using them would be if my car got trapped in water somehow and I needed to break a window to get out and all I had was my G19. Do you think it'd break glass with barrel on glass contact?
I'll do it again and record it next time I get a chance. If you've ever thrown a grenade simulator or a large firework into a pond, it kind of sounded like that.
Yes, I think it would break side windows, I don't know about the windshield. However, you would probably be pretty discombobulated from the blast.
QuietShootr
06-21-10, 16:25
Can someone enlighten me as to exactly how maritime cups function?
The cups are a flanged retainer that holds the striker spring on the striker. The maritime version have longitudinal flutes that allow water that gets trapped in front of the striker and BEHIND the breech face to flow back around the striker when the gun is fired. this keeps a hydraulic lock from forming that brakes the pin enough that you get light strikes if the channel is full of water.
Do you know if the maritime cups in a G19 will operate safely and reliably? What I had read was they were only designed to be used in the G17, even if they will fit other 9mm Glocks.
QuietShootr
06-21-10, 16:37
Do you know if the maritime cups in a G19 will operate safely and reliably? What I had read was they were only designed to be used in the G17, even if they will fit other 9mm Glocks.
Yes, they will work fine. I've used them for years in other guns, this particular one just doesn't have them.
Do you know if the maritime cups in a G19 will operate safely and reliably? What I had read was they were only designed to be used in the G17, even if they will fit other 9mm Glocks.
the firing pin channel/striker mechanism on all glocks is the same, so i can't imagine a problem....
where can you buy the maritime cups? you've got me interested.
Thanks for the info.......... I know a New Orleans cop who got this result after there ordeal...... luckily it wasn't a life endangering thing but more so putting down an aimal. Its these types of experiments that bring things worth knowing to light!
Flooding concerns can be valid even in areas that aren't near bodies of water. For instance, last fall here in GA we had widespread flooding just from a rainstorm that kept dumping water on the same area for ~18hrs straight.
Eliminating sources of uncertainty or unreliability is rarely a bad practice. The OP's concerns seem perfectly valid to me.
i live 100 feet uphill from the river- our basin still flooded again in '07, just from inadequate drainage. we didn't even get it that bad- my house was a wash, but all my neighbors narrowly escaped gutting. most of the other river towns in this county were washed out, and looting and fighting occurred. to think disasters don't happen, and that guns never get submerged, is unrealistic.
I was curious what the results would be.
I have considered taking the g17 down while spearfishing.
Hogfish will swim very close, very unsporting to consider a glock...but would make quick work. As far as people asking about the report. I've shot my .223 powerhead and never really noticed any unusually load report or concusion wave. I used to use (years ago) the powerhead but sometimes with a multiple bands the .223 would go off as soon as I pulled the trigger. (so 4 feet away from my head)
or the casing would flood and it would bounce off the grouper head with no bang....so I stopped.
Ran in to (swam head into like I was playing chicken, within 5 feet as I was looking down) a larger sand tiger this Friday...he seemed every bit of ten feet long.
If I had any bleedy fish maritime cups would be nice to have....if nothing else but point blank range....
Now that was funny. Or were you being serious???
Hostile? not at all. I'm simply stating that there's a better chance of being attacked by a great white inside your home.
Never know though here in my mom's basement.
Sure I suppose if you spend alot of time on boats, BRO.
I can see the scenario. Your on a boat and are about to get hijacked, but you drop your glock over the side and have to dive in after it. When you get to the surface you have to shoot it out with the bad guys.
It sounds like it will be of no good to even attempt to reason with you, but seriously, for those of us who live in areas that are stricken by natural disasters every year, something like this video isn't so far off. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE_2fgH0Es4&feature=channel
Here is a youtube clip of someone firing a Glock 19 underwater.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6WUSnALoRc
Probably not if you never leave your mom's basement, though.
Basements can also flood :D
Re: maritime spring cups, if you do find yourself swimming in a natural disaster scenario, better to have those $15 spring cups in your gun rather than not...next time I'm shopping for my Glocks I'm gonna pick up a set or two.
I was curious what the results would be.
I have considered taking the g17 down while spearfishing.
Hogfish will swim very close, very unsporting to consider a glock...but would make quick work. As far as people asking about the report. I've shot my .223 powerhead and never really noticed any unusually load report or concusion wave. I used to use (years ago) the powerhead but sometimes with a multiple bands the .223 would go off as soon as I pulled the trigger. (so 4 feet away from my head)
or the casing would flood and it would bounce off the grouper head with no bang....so I stopped.
Ran in to (swam head into like I was playing chicken, within 5 feet as I was looking down) a larger sand tiger this Friday...he seemed every bit of ten feet long.
If I had any bleedy fish maritime cups would be nice to have....if nothing else but point blank range....
I had always heard that some divers use G-17s for shark defense/finishing big game fish. I assumed they would actually do damage at a few yards, but I guess it is more or less a 17 round autoloading bang-stick?
where can you buy the maritime cups? you've got me interested.
also interested
NMBigfoot02
06-21-10, 20:05
This thread got me thinking...has anyone tried anything similar with an M&P or any other striker fired pistol? I ask only out of curiosity with no desire to start a shit storm.
I should really shoot my P30 underwater and see what happens.....:confused:
For those asking where to purchase the maritime spring cups, you can find them here at GlockParts (http://glockparts.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=6820). You can also see in that picture how they differ from the standard spring cups (http://glockparts.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=7278) as per QuietShootr's explanation.
is there any downside to the maritime cups? :confused:
is there any downside to the maritime cups? :confused:
No. ;)
para13cord
06-22-10, 00:41
Cool experiment at least I know im not the only guy who wanted to try this.
I should really shoot my P30 underwater and see what happens.....:confused:
I'm patiently waiting your results. :p
ROCKET20_GINSU
06-22-10, 03:30
Quietshootr,
Thanks for bringing this up and posting your results. While certainly not likely, I do think that your experiment touches on some important considerations. You just never know what murphy might bring, and replacing a part with another OEM part to add to the Glock's already significant reliability record is cheap insurance IMO. I'll be picking up some maritime spring cups for my carry guns.
Thanks for the post,
GU
i'm actually sort of surprised these aren't standard equipment in factory glocks. DOES anyone know of any drawbacks to using them?
"Depth of the pistol was about 15", water depth about 4.5' - target was a 2"x8" stuck in the bottom silt and held at the top end by someone standing on the dock which was 1.5' over my head. Range was about 4 feet."
Doesn't sound "SAFE" to me....
Not knowing what your results would be, having a human stand in-front of you holding the target sounds like an accident waiting to happen regardless is he was elevate above your position or not. Too many opportunities for something to go terribly wrong.
I know, I know, nothing bad happened after-all, but with your report of the irregular bullet path who knows what could have happened???
Not trying to be a buzz-kill, but man this isn't something we should be promoting on this forum that other shooters may try at home. Just glad no one was injured or worse.
QuietShootr
06-22-10, 06:32
"Depth of the pistol was about 15", water depth about 4.5' - target was a 2"x8" stuck in the bottom silt and held at the top end by someone standing on the dock which was 1.5' over my head. Range was about 4 feet."
Doesn't sound "SAFE" to me....
Not knowing what your results would be, having a human stand in-front of you holding the target sounds like an accident waiting to happen regardless is he was elevate above your position or not. Too many opportunities for something to go terribly wrong.
I know, I know, nothing bad happened after-all, but with your report of the irregular bullet path who knows what could have happened???
Not trying to be a buzz-kill, but man this isn't something we should be promoting on this forum that other shooters may try at home. Just glad no one was injured or worse.
FFS. This isn't TOS. I did not stand there shouting 'YEEEEHAW, Cletus, Holt my target an watch 'is!" The person holding the board was about 4' or more from the part I was shooting at, and at the FARTHEST, I was 4' away. Plus, he was effectively covered from the impact point by an enormous concrete and treated wood dock. The only possible way he could have sustained an injury would be for the bullet to have taken a near 90 degree turn as it left the muzzle, headed almost straight up out of the water (under 1.5 feet of water, remember) and struck him in the hand at the top of the board. We judged the likelihood of this happening to be so low that it was in the range of acceptable risk. Besides, there was a ruck with a full medical kit including CATs and everything else we would have needed in case someone got injured, and the other guy standing on the dock is an M.D. who works in an ER.
This is big boy rules. Don't do anything ignorant, know the risks of what you are doing, and have an appropriate mitigation plan if things turn to shit. And, don't bitch and whine if something bad does happen.
I had all that covered. Please consider this Standard Conditions(TM) for anything I post about doing. Thank you.
Combat_Diver
06-22-10, 07:05
Thanks for the report. Always like my 1911 for firing underwater. And yes some of us do work with guns in water.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/5th_Divers.jpg
CD
QuietShootr
06-22-10, 07:13
Thanks for the report. Always like my 1911 for firing underwater. And yes some of us do work with guns in water.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/5th_Divers.jpg
CD
CD,
Is your range IN the water similar to what I experienced?
30 cal slut
06-22-10, 07:49
here's a source for maritime spring cups (scroll down).
i have been looking for these myself (i carry a glock when i wetsuit).
there are more vendors now (than say, 18 months ago) selling spring cups, which is encouraging.
http://www.cpwsa.com/Glock%20Parts.htm
Moose-Knuckle
06-22-10, 08:10
Intersting, thanks for posting your findings.
One of our officers dropped his GLOCK in a mud puddle during a foot pursuit, totally submersed.
"What can go wrong will go wrong" - Murphy
QuietShootr
06-22-10, 08:23
Intersting, thanks for posting your findings.
One of our officers dropped his GLOCK in a mud puddle during a foot pursuit, totally submersed.
Does he wannabe a SEAL? :rolleyes:
30 cal slut
06-22-10, 08:58
You haven't lived until you've been chased out of the surf by an angry 400 lb. bull seal.
A shark humping your leg at 2 in the morning isn't the most pleasant feeling either.
And there is the occassional raccoon that might give you some attitude (or rabies) as you are walking back to the parking lot after spending all night fishing.
:)
trunkmonkey
06-22-10, 09:14
Sure a handgun or any firearm could becom submerged if you live in a disaster stricken, flood prone area. However that is not what is in question.
What is in question is the need for these "cups" in a glock. And the need to immediately take a firearm from the water and shoot it right away.
How long does it take for the water to drain from just about any firearm? Never timed it but not too damn long.
So unless your like combat diver up there no one here is needing the weapon to go bang bang and doesn't have the time to rack the slide a couple times and drain it out. Taking all of what? 20 seconds?? Lets say 20 seconds for arguements sake. If that is time you don't feel you can spare rock on.
QuietShooter states that he had to cycle the slide twice to clear the firing pin area and drain the barrel.
How long did that take???
You can expand this to M4's also. Say your rifle is "underwater" for whatever reason. How damn long does it take to drain it and start firing??
Not long enough to spend cash for some part or plug or whatever unless you actually feel the need to immediately fire your weapon upon taking it out of whatever pond, river or pool it was in. Something tells me again that unless your Combat diver up there you'll have the 20 seconds to drain it and fire away.
I'm not quite sure what it is inside me, perhaps common sense. That tells me when the zombie hordes attack after my mom's basement floods (where my guns are) I'm going to have a couple seconds to let them drain before having to put rounds downrange.
bwahahahhaa this is truly only a discussion that would come up on the internet. or a local gun show.
CarbonCycles
06-22-10, 09:16
Informative post w/ sound justification to covert all my glocks over to the maritime cups
QuietShootr
06-22-10, 09:19
Sure a handgun or any firearm could becom submerged if you live in a disaster stricken, flood prone area. However that is not what is in question.
What is in question is the need for these "cups" in a glock. And the need to immediately take a firearm from the water and shoot it right away.
How long does it take for the water to drain from just about any firearm? Never timed it but not too damn long.
So unless you like combat diver up there no one here is needing the weapon to go bang bang and doesn't have the time to rack the slide a couple times and drain it out. Taking all of what? 20 seconds??
QuietShooter states that he had to cycle the slide twice to clear the firing pin area and drain the barrel.
How long did that take???
Ridiculous. And I wasn't talking about draining the barrel, I was referring to the hydraulic lock that forms when water gets in front of the striker and behind the breech face. There's no guarantee that cycling the gun twice (and by the way, I had to dry fire it twice) would clear that. So.. I had to remove the magazine, clear the weapon, and dry fire it twice then reload it before I could shoot. That's stupid as hell to think that that is in any way acceptable for a defensive weapon, whether you're on an ODA or are a civilian carrying a weapon for defensive use.
QuietShootr
06-22-10, 09:20
How long did that take???
You can expand this to M4's also. Say your rifle is "underwater" for whatever reason. How damn long does it take to drain it and start firing??
Not long enough to spend cash for some part or plug or whatever unless you actually feel the need to immediately fire your weapon upon taking it out of whatever pond, river or pool it was in. Something tells me again that unless your Combat diver up there you'll have the 20 seconds to drain it and fire away.
20 seconds? You've never been in a fight, obviously.
So unless your like combat diver up there no one here is needing the weapon to go bang bang and doesn't have the time to rack the slide a couple times and drain it out. Taking all of what? 20 seconds??
I really don't understand why you think it is so out of the realm of possibility to need to immediately fire a weapon that has just been submerged.
Here's an example, first hand, of a situation that could have led to that. I work outside of town, on the other end of town from where I live. One day last week I got off work at 3:30am and drove into town, only to find out that less than an hour of rain had left it flooded because of our shitty 100 year old sewer system. Everything was under 2-4 feet of water. The road I came in on was the only way out, but it's one-way so I was stuck downtown for over an hour waiting on it to recede. I decided to make myself useful and help some people push their car out of it. Naturally all of this happened at 3:30, which meant the bars had all just emptied a bunch of drunks into this mess. A bunch of drunk guys finding their cars flooded and having to wade through brown water to get home turned a bad situation worse. There was screaming and fighting going on everywhere. Luckily they all stayed the hell away from me.
Now, in a situation like that, is it such an impossibility that some of these assholes could have decided that I looked like a good target for their aggression? And that I could have ended up off my feet, meaning a submerged gun that might not have worked if I needed it to?
20 seconds? You've never been in a fight, obviously. Now go away and find an airsoft thread to crap in. And welcome to my ignore list :-)
Well said.
That's why the Russians developed these:
http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/sgalbra76/a_underwater.jpg
Regular bullets tumble or expand in water an slow down really quickly.
This link shows these being fired out of what appears to be a multi barreled handgun as well as an Assault weapon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-P578pnctU&feature=related
Complication
06-22-10, 10:01
Now, in a situation like that, is it such an impossibility that some of these assholes could have decided that I looked like a good target for their aggression? And that I could have ended up off my feet, meaning a submerged gun that might not have worked if I needed it to?
Agreed. And unless you're in the habit of storing your gun underwater, it's unlikely that it will get submerged except for unexpected circumstances (a scuffle, dropping it accidentally, falling into a pool of water, etc.). Unless of course you're in water so deep that you're swimming (in which case defending yourself with a gun is probably the least of your worries). So the only practical ways of your gun getting soaked match up neatly with "Oh shit!" scenarios (i.e. those in which 20 seconds is a lifetime and a half).
The phrase "time is life situation" comes to mind. After all, drawing a gun from concealment and firing takes all of 2-3 seconds for someone with only moderate practice. Probably 5-6 seconds for someone who has never done it before. That additional 2-4 seconds isn't much so what's the point of practicing... right?
Your 20 seconds argument pretty much dismisses any an all firearms training. So you're on the wrong site, buddy. If all you wanna do is play with guns then QuietShootr's right, pick up a few airsoft guns.
Complication
06-22-10, 10:06
This link shows these being fired out of what appears to be a multi barreled handgun as well as an Assault weapon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-P578pnctU&feature=related
PS:
When does Magpul release their 5.66x39mm mps PMAGs?
Thanks Quietshootr for the info gleaned from this.
I will be purchasing maritime cups for all 3 of my glocks. I've
lived in S. Florida since 1988 and seen a lion's share of flooding
from hurricanes and rainstorms that simply won't move. There
are canals EVERYWHERE down here and cars going into them
every week for one reason or another (reckless drivers), since
I carry daily this can only be a plus if I can't reach the spring loaded
punch in my vehicle,at least the G19 is on my side.
If I ever take up some aquauintances on their offers
to go hunting out in the glades on their airboat or swamp-buggy with the gators, bobcats, rabid racoons that abound , at least I will
know I've done what I can to make my secondary more reliable
when wet/submerged.
Lastly, one of the many things I've learned on M4C and training
classes is if you have 20secs to get your weapon back up, you're
probably not in a real gunfight.
THICK IS as THICK DOES.
i have a creek and an river that is closer to my house than a fire hydrant.
i'm actually sort of surprised these aren't standard equipment in factory glocks. DOES anyone know of any drawbacks to using them?
I have had the marine spring cups in my 19 for about ten or so years and have not had any problems.
If anyone ever decides to shoot under water make sure you wear ear plugs. The concussion is quite surprising. The one time I did it felt like someone was slapping my mask every time I pulled the trigger.
John_Wayne777
06-22-10, 15:17
I've tried to remove as much of the thread derailment as possible.
Now let's keep the discussion technical in nature so I don't have to start busting heads.
bwahahahhaa this is truly only a discussion that would come up on the internet. or a local gun show.
what's the downside of installing the cups? if there is a downside, i'd consider your points legitimate.
if you fell in a creek just right i'd think it would be possible for the firing pin channel to stay full of water for awhile with the normal cups. personally i'm not buying them at the moment because i live in a near-desert and am a cheapskate, but anyone who spends time near the water should consider them.
Hardchrome
06-22-10, 19:59
Is there any down side to installing these cups in a Glock? What is the worst case scenario if you installed these cups on your Glock? Would it cause it to be not as reliable?
From my fairly weak Google search, I found various links were people stated that the maritime spring cups were weaker than the standard. What difference that makes I'm not sure, I don't know what sort of maintenance/replacement schedule the standard ones are on. I found an interesting read on Glockworld about firing underwater.
http://www.glockworld.com/content.aspx?Ckey=glockfaqs
Can I shoot my Glock underwater?
Just about any handgun will fire underwater -- at least once. :-) However, firing underwater is NOT recommended because it can have devastating effects on the pistol and the shooter -- a potentially dangerous activity that should only be utilized by trained personnel wearing proper equipment for protection against potential pressure wave effects of underwater detonation. The shock/pressure waves in water can really damage internal organs (ever heard of lithotripsy?). Shooting a pistol underwater can lead to property damage, serious bodily injury or even death.
NOTE: Glock, Inc., specifically disclaims any and all liability from anyone performing or attempting to perform underwater firing with a Glock pistol -- you do so at your own risk.
The Glock 17 may be equipped with an optional set of maritime spring cups for use in water environments. Maritime spring cups are not intended for submerged firing, but for surface use by special ops teams who operate in and around water. The maritime spring cups are two small parts within the firing pin assembly and are not included on any Model 17 sold by Glock (civilians can only get them through 3rd parties). They insure that water can pass by the firing pin within the firing pin channel, thus preventing the creation of hydraulic force within the firing pin channel -- which would slow the firing pin down, causing light primer strikes. With the special cups, the action will cycle reliably while submersed, if a little bit slower. NATO specification ammunition (such as Winchester's Ranger RA9124N) with waterproof sealed primers and case mouths is recommended.
Although you may install the maritime spring cups on any Glock model, *only* the Glock 17 was designed and intended to use the modified spring cups for aquatic firing -- and only then using 9mm ball ammunition to remain within acceptable pressure limits. The foolhardy who insist on living dangerously must keep several things in mind: The Glock 17 must be fully submersed underwater. There must not be any air left within the pistol as the muzzle is pointed towards the surface of the water after submersion to allow the air in the barrel to escape. Use only full metal jacket, ball-type ammunition because the water within the barrel can spread a hollow point out within the barrel upon firing. This increases the bearing surface of the bullet to the barrel and could catastrophically increase pressures. Even if the barrel doesn't burst, the expanded bullet would get even bigger upon exiting into the water and would slow down very quickly while tumbling. Accuracy would be terrible.
The marinized Glock 17 is primarily for use by various Special Warfare units operating in aquatic environments. At least one specialized Scuba diving group regularly uses G17's to dispatch sharks where they dive. The Glock 17 using NATO specification ball ammunition will completely penetrate a minimum of one 1/2" pine board at a distance of ten feet from the muzzle when fired underwater.
Trained personnel who use Glocks underwater know they must obey several rules:
1) use only a Glock Model 17 with amphibious spring cups (reliability issue);
2) use only 9mm FMJ subsonic, sealed primer ammo;
3) completely immerse the pistol and get *all* the air out of the barrel;
4) wear protective ear plugs, gloves, wet suit, face mask, etc.;
5) do not fire near solid objects or in enclosed spaces to prevent return
concussion.
However, any Glock -- even those not equipped with maritime spring cups -- will normally fire while submersed underwater. But doing so may generate excessive internal pressure and may cause the pistol to literally blow up. This is especially true with the use of high-pressure rounds (such as the .40 S&W/357 SIG) or hollow-point bullets.
I recall a reported incident where a Glockster on a boating holiday decided to show some friends how his Glock would fire underwater (because Tommy Lee Jones said so in the movies). He stuck his hand overboard, pulled the trigger and came back with a bunch of shredded plastic and a badly injured hand.
Another reported case was the Glockster who decided to try out his Glock 23 .40 S&W in the swimming pool after seeing pictures of Glocks being fired underwater on the web. He was totally submerged, with the gun, as he fired at a piece of wood on the bottom of his pool. The Glock did fire, the .40 S&W FMJ round left the barrel and went into the wood. The chamber also exploded and implanted shrapnel into his leg. Thinking that the water would muffle the blast, he did not wear hearing protection (the blast is actually about 4 times louder underwater). He is now mostly deaf in one ear and hears high-pitched tones most of his waking life.
As you can see, firing a pistol underwater is a *very* dangerous endeavor.
Several things could happen:
1) the firing pin may be slowed enough to not detonate the primer
(without the maritime spring cups)
2) the pistol could blow up in your hand;
3) the concussion could damage ears, eyes or internal organs;
4) the bullet may not go where you intend it to.
Even if you have the right equipment, know what you're doing and follow the rules -- the risks for underwater firing are minimized -- but not eliminated. Your pistol's barrel could be affected by water obstruction and your body by damaging concussion. By using hollow point bullets (water may cause the bullet to expand in the barrel), high pressure ammo, etc. -- you're asking for an underwater kaBoom! It you fire near solid or hard objects, the bouncing concussion can cause extensive, perhaps even fatal external/internal tissue injury. Why risk it?
Rev 2/2000 by JT ©2000 Blue Ridge Bullseye.
I had played with the idea of trying it. But, I think I'll leave this one to the shark shooters and Mr. Jones.
trunkmonkey
06-23-10, 16:25
Ridiculous. And I wasn't talking about draining the barrel, I was referring to the hydraulic lock that forms when water gets in front of the striker and behind the breech face. There's no guarantee that cycling the gun twice (and by the way, I had to dry fire it twice) would clear that. So.. I had to remove the magazine, clear the weapon, and dry fire it twice then reload it before I could shoot. That's stupid as hell to think that that is in any way acceptable for a defensive weapon, whether you're on an ODA or are a civilian carrying a weapon for defensive use.
I'd think draining the barrel was equally as important as clearing the channel the firing pin sits in.
How long did it take you to clear the weapon, dry fire it twice, reload and fire??
So pretty much every pistol on the market is not in any way acceptable for a defensive weapon unless modified like this???
glocks, sigs, H&K, etc all unacceptable for a defensive weapon apparently because they can't be fired immediately after being submerged. Now THAT is ridiculous.
Just another tool looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist for 99.9% of the known world.
I'm back to reading soldier of fortune in my mom's basement.
So pretty much every pistol on the market is not in any way acceptable for a defensive weapon unless modified like this???
i think most glock guys would tend to think no other weapon is suitable for defense to begin with, regardless of maritime cups.
maybe i've missed it.... have you actually made an argument against maritime cups yet?
Complication
06-23-10, 16:54
So pretty much every pistol on the market is not in any way acceptable for a defensive weapon unless modified like this???
Well, as the title of the tread indicates, this experiment (and its results) relate to the G19 and, due to Glocks of all shapes and sizes sharing the same action (correct me if I'm wrong), Glocks in general.
Any other gun with a different action will perform differently underwater (I believe Combat_Diver indicated his 1911 works just dandy submerged). Maybe some better, maybe some worse.
So, to say "pretty much every pistol on the market is not in any way acceptable for a defensive weapon unless modified like this???" is pulling words out of your ass, not from any discussion above--and we all know it. A more accurate conclusion would be, "Any pistol which cannot reliably fire after being submerged has somewhat less usefulness as a defensive weapon than a pistol whose action is water-immune." or "For QuietShootr's purposes, he has little interest in a defensive weapon that cannot reliably fire after being submerged when a $10 piece of equipment can remedy that incapability."
I know, those are way less dramatic and have no hope of convincing everyone that you're right. But sometimes you just gotta buck up and move on knowing that you're right and everyone else is just out to get you.
Since '05 when Rita came through here, I have made it standard practice to switch the spring cups as part of normal hurricane preparation. I don't want to test their reliability all year long when it takes 3 minutes or less to swap them out. I've decided that at other times of the year I might somehow submerge the gun, but chances are about nil that I will have to shoot it immediately. If some data surfaces on the marine cups being just as durable as the standard cups, I'll switch to them permanently.
Good thread. I've been meaning to share my little procedure, but keep getting sidetracked. I feel like swapping the cups is one of the few good ideas I've ever actually had. :D
For the people who think it's a silly idea, you should come down south for a Cat. 4 and hang out with the "Superdome folks" in the aftermath. :rolleyes:
NMBigfoot02
06-24-10, 13:31
Now that I think about it, I recall Patrick Sweeney running some underwater tests for an article on the 1911. One of the stated advantages of the .45 ACP was the lower pressure, which would make a catastrophic failure less likely. I'll see if I can track down the article.
I fired one of my G19s in a lake this weekend using WWB FMJ ammunition, and got some interesting data points - one useful, one 'who cares'.
Depth of the pistol was about 15", water depth about 4.5' - target was a 2"x8" stuck in the bottom silt and held at the top end by someone standing on the dock which was 1.5' over my head. Range was about 4 feet.
During this experiment, did the idea of using a rope, hammer, and nail to hang the target cross your mind?
Complication
07-01-10, 16:01
During this experiment, did the idea of using a rope, hammer, and nail to hang the target cross your mind?
While you may disagree about the safety of this experiment, QuietShootr HAS addressed this (pg 2)
FFS. This isn't TOS. I did not stand there shouting 'YEEEEHAW, Cletus, Holt my target an watch 'is!" The person holding the board was about 4' or more from the part I was shooting at, and at the FARTHEST, I was 4' away. Plus, he was effectively covered from the impact point by an enormous concrete and treated wood dock. The only possible way he could have sustained an injury would be for the bullet to have taken a near 90 degree turn as it left the muzzle, headed almost straight up out of the water (under 1.5 feet of water, remember) and struck him in the hand at the top of the board. We judged the likelihood of this happening to be so low that it was in the range of acceptable risk. Besides, there was a ruck with a full medical kit including CATs and everything else we would have needed in case someone got injured, and the other guy standing on the dock is an M.D. who works in an ER.
This is big boy rules. Don't do anything ignorant, know the risks of what you are doing, and have an appropriate mitigation plan if things turn to shit. And, don't bitch and whine if something bad does happen.
I had all that covered. Please consider this Standard Conditions(TM) for anything I post about doing. Thank you.
Personally, I think it should be SOP to shout 'YEEEEHAW, Cletus' before any experiment.
NMBigfoot02
07-10-10, 06:49
Finally found the article by Sweeney. For those interested, the relevant bit is on pages 69-73.
http://books.google.com/books?id=8bKqoPNWpt0C&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=patrick+sweeney+1911+underwater&source=bl&ots=aFPbkZ4tyV&sig=PlJjy07qpUULtW_YpjxPV1XgLck&hl=en&ei=Ul04TLKNEsOB8gbVo8CmBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
Pumpkinheaver
07-10-10, 07:40
Anybody see the episode of guns and ammo where they fired the 1911 in a pool. It eventually buldged the bbl. Has anybody fubared their glock shooting it underwater?
Interesting. So, ok to shoot a glock underwater, but not ok to shoot a rifle underwater? Not trying to start a fight; just genuinely interested. :confused:
QuietShootr
07-10-10, 09:08
Interesting. So, ok to shoot a glock underwater, but not ok to shoot a rifle underwater? Not trying to start a fight; just genuinely interested. :confused:
Correct, generally. Pressures are too high. 9mm SAAMI standard pressure is 35,000psi, while 5.56 is almost 63,000psi. Add the bore obstruction of water, and you will exceed the rupture strength of your barrel pretty quickly.
As I recall, some hillbilly asswipe on Arfcom DID shoot a Bushmaster carbine underwater in a creek and blew it to the proverbial smithereens. He posted pictures.
...has anyone tried anything similar with an M&P or any other striker fired pistol?
I'm interested in this question as well. Can water stop the M&P design from firing, and are there any special parts like the Glock Maritime spring cups for maritime use?
I don't live anywhere near water and we don't see any flooding here, but I can imagine that even something like a torrential downpour could get into the gun if you had to keep it exposed for any length of time. And there's always pools and puddles even 10 miles from the nearest lake or river.
A couple of thoughts;
I have been in waist-to-chest deep water several times while at work, like when I had to cross a creek chasing a robbery suspect.
I have also been so wet during thunder storms that I felt like I had fallen into a pond (like last Wednesday during the local flash flooding events we had).
It's total BS that the regualr spring cups are like $2, and the uber special maritime cups are $15-$18 depending on where you buy them.
Scalpers need to die.
Correct, generally. Pressures are too high. 9mm SAAMI standard pressure is 35,000psi, while 5.56 is almost 63,000psi. Add the bore obstruction of water, and you will exceed the rupture strength of your barrel pretty quickly.
As I recall, some hillbilly asswipe on Arfcom DID shoot a Bushmaster carbine underwater in a creek and blew it to the proverbial smithereens. He posted pictures.
Wow. Thank you.
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