View Full Version : ambi bolt release
tvfreakarms
06-21-10, 21:40
I have a spikes lower and I was wondering if anyone has a after market ambi bolt release set up yet? I know troy is working on one and I was curious of other companies has released one already and if anyone is using one right now. I'm curious how well it works.
DaBears_85
06-21-10, 22:54
I have a Norgon Ambi-Catch installed on my 6920. Works great, definately would recommend it. Check it out if you get the chance.
ETA: http://www.norgon.com/Home_files/AmbiCatch.htm
ROCKET20_GINSU
06-22-10, 04:41
Have you considered the Magpul BAD (Battery Assist Device)? or are you interested only in pure ambi bolt releases?
GU
Army Chief
06-22-10, 06:26
I consider the Norgon ambidextrous mag release standard kit for a left-handed firer, and there are some excellent ambidextrous selector options on the market as well. I'll doubtless have more to say about this later.
The ambidextrous bolt release issue is not nearly so clear cut in my view. I do have one on a Magpul lower, and I find it a convenient and worthwhile addition; that said, it isn't really yet a part of my manual of arms, since this is the only rifle I have that is so equipped, and I've already been working around the problem for some 30 years.
Some will tell you that the B.A.D. is another viable solution, though I personally don't find that very credible, since (a) it is still going to require the use of your right hand in order to actuate it, (b) it adds complexity, and (c) it remains a theory-based product which, while effective, isn't fielded in great enough numbers to really consider it a standard solution. More to the point, the B.A.D. is designed primarily for the trigger finger with the right hand on fire control, so any actuation by a left-hander is still going to be a work-around.
I think the jury is still out on the dedicated receivers that we're starting to see on the market, and this would include the Mapgul. I'm thrilled to see the incorporation of true ambidextrous controls, of course, but there is an attendant training requirement because of where and how they are placed. They do work well as designed, but this is yet another case where operator training (or lack thereof) is really going to make the difference.
AC
New equipment that requires altering the manual of arms always seems to raise discussion and even controversy. If maintaining the manual of arms is the most imprtant factor, then new parts that offer improved function might not be developed and available. "Improved function" is subjective and always seems to cause debate. If we get stuck in the past, we might still be stuck with tiny charging handles run with the right hand instead of the oversized latch models and the latest revisions, the highly regarded Gunfighter charging handles. I'm sure there are some who had to make a major adjustment to run the charging handle with the left hand instead of the right, while there are newer shooters who never even considered any other way. That's the way they learned.
Two "new" parts that I really like are the BAD lever and the Redi Mag. I have both and I'm OK with the changes required to use them. They both require major alterations to the manual of arms I use for my carbine.
To me, ambidextrous bolt catches make sense. Who knows if one standard type will evolve that is accepted as "standard". It may only happen if the US military adopts it, and even then it will take some time. At some point, I believe there will be shooters who never knew anything else, because ambi-bolt cathces will be the norm.
We seem to be going down two divergent paths here, and without further input from the OP it's going to be hard to tell which one is the right path.
The discussion of "ambi" controls is never really that simple, as evidenced above. Some are talking about left-handed controls (Norgon, POF, KAC) while others are talking about shifting controls from one side of the gun to the other (BAD). FWIW, I believe the former is the better definition of "ambi".
If the OP is a lefty looking for controls on the other side of the gun, IMHO the stock bolt release is perfectly designed and located for releasing with the left trigger finger, and no further modification is needed.
The BAD, and similar devices, is not really and ambi control in the strictest sense, at least to me. I find it to be an ergonomic improvement, and use them on just about all of my rifles at this point, but I don't view it as an "ambi" solution.
maybe if the OP can come back and tell us what he's trying to accomplish we can better guide him. "Ambi" seems to be one of the hot buzzwords in the AR market right now but like most things end use and needs still drives the train.
The BAD, and similar devices, is not really and ambi control in the strictest sense, at least to me.
............. but it can be oprerated with either hand.
ForTehNguyen
06-22-10, 07:47
............. but it can be oprerated with either hand.
kind of. Its designed for the right handed shooter, but a lefty can still utilize to a decent degree.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyrC5mdY8og
kind of. Its designed for the right handed shooter, but a lefty can still utilize to a decent degree.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyrC5mdY8og
My point was that a right handed shooter can still operate it with the left hand like the standard manual of arms, even though it is designed to move the function to the right hand trigger finger. The video confirms that it works with both hands.
Army Chief
06-22-10, 18:13
kind of. Its designed for the right handed shooter, but a lefty can still utilize to a decent degree.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyrC5mdY8og
I was familiar with this technique, though it was still helpful to see it demonstrated. My concerns, as identified in the video, are that the B.A.D. makes activation of the Norgon somewhat more complicated, and in this, it may be creating a more significant problem than it solves (again, from a left-handed firer's perspective). If you have long fingers, this is likely less of an impedent, but then again, if you have long fingers, you can probably reach the unmodified bolt release with your trigger finger in the first place.
Like anything else, this could be viewed as a training issue, but I just don't see what a southpaw stands to gain from a faster bolt release if the component involved actually slows and/or obstructs his access to the magazine release. Obviously, some have done it and gotten good results, but there are enough alternate methods of releasing the bolt that I can't quite follow the risk versus return payoff associated with this particular mod.
AC
spoonrobot
06-22-10, 19:18
If the OP is a lefty looking for controls on the other side of the gun, IMHO the stock bolt release is perfectly designed and located for releasing with the left trigger finger, and no further modification is needed.
How long is your trigger finger? I can't get that method to work without removing my hand from the grip.
tvfreakarms
06-23-10, 05:17
The magpul bad lever is the same as the ambi bolt release from troy (i'm a left handed shooter). Personally the magpul version looks better. Well i think i have to get the bad lever. I wonder where I could get a good deal on one.
After watching that youtube video, the bad lever, could have issues if you were to release the magazine and possibly hitting the bad lever and releasing the bolt. They I wonder if you could file some of that off so that it won't stick out so far. Maybe magpul could come out a with a shorter one.
Troy's ambi bolt release (http://store.troyind.com/Enhanced_Trigger_Guard_p/sbol-amb-00bt-00.htm)
Magpul bad lever (http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG980/100)
tvfreakarms
06-23-10, 05:28
It's a little pricey for a little piece of metal. Is there a cheaper version?
Although I think it's a pretty cool device I don't think i could install this because...well...I live in cali. There's this thing called a bullet button we need to install on our AR's that has the horrible, the very bad pistol grip feature, a bullet button needs to be installed. That's even considered a gray area with the laws in cali. I guess technically we could still get our rifles taken away. But anyways let's get back on the topic on hand.
I have a Norgon Ambi-Catch installed on my 6920. Works great, definately would recommend it. Check it out if you get the chance.
ETA: http://www.norgon.com/Home_files/AmbiCatch.htm
How long is your trigger finger? I can't get that method to work without removing my hand from the grip.
Just tried it again to be sure. Not going to measure my finger but I had no issue at all hitting the bottom to lock it open and only a very slight modification to get leverage to release the bolt. I can reach the pad with a firing grip but shifting just a hair gives me a little bit better leverage to ensure release.
the bottom of the bolt catch is almost exactly across from the mag catch, so if you can reach that with the right hand...
Sorry to but in here, but I had a quick question since I see that the BAD lever has been mentioned. Will the BAD lever work on a weapon that is using the 1st Gen. KNS anti rotational pins? The reason Im asking is because I have them installed on a Sundevil lower and the space between the pins and the part of the reciever that runs vertical from the bolt catch is very narrow. Thanks for any input...
Gutshot John
06-23-10, 06:56
The magpul bad lever is the same as the ambi bolt release from troy (i'm a left handed shooter). Personally the magpul version looks better. Well i think i have to get the bad lever.
As a left-handed shooter I would advise you to reconsider getting the BAD. I know many many right-handers that are ditching theirs as well. I love Magpul stuff but not everything is worth having.
It will NOT give you any enhanced capability on the left-side and you will find that you're often activating it (dropping the bolt) when you least want it to. If you're using a Norgon Ambi-Catch (which I highly recommend for lefty shooters) you're even more likely to drop the bolt when you don't want to if you're simultaneously using a BAD.
IMO the positioning of the device is an impediment to left-handed shooting. Putting it where you lay you're trigger finger while not shooting is a real flaw.
How long is your trigger finger? I can't get that method to work without removing my hand from the grip.
I have small hands and I have no problem at all activating it, especially with a standard A2 grip. Your catch may be tight but it will loosen with practice. Even still shifting your grip isn't the end of the world. You're not going to die on fire if you shift your hand from the firing grip briefly to drop the bolt as you're mounting it to your shoulder.
Tornado_Racing
06-23-10, 06:57
I'm a natural righty but my wife is a lefty. Here are a few mods I did which allow her to operate the gun from the left side.
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/8416/dscf2033.jpg
Lefthand Mag Release
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/2510/dscf2035.jpg
Lefthand Bolt Release
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/752/dscf2038p.jpg
I used a second BAD Lever for the mod by dremeling a channel on the primary lever and cutting the end off the second lever. Measured twice and cut once for a perfect fit. I did not like having to slide my hand up the mag to release the bolt from the right side.
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/9194/dscf2051w.jpg
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/4564/dscf2057.jpg
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/2025/dscf2060.jpg
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/8260/dscf2063f.jpg
Tornado_Racing
06-23-10, 07:03
Here is the mod I did to the ACLM.
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/9744/dscf2093.jpg
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/5240/dscf2090w.jpg
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/8615/dscf2084c.jpg
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/6407/dscf2081.jpg
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/7061/dscf2078x.jpg
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/9831/dscf2066z.jpg
tvfreakarms
06-24-10, 06:47
Is the bad lever that sensitive to activate?
As a left-handed shooter I would advise you to reconsider getting the BAD. I know many many right-handers that are ditching theirs as well. I love Magpul stuff but not everything is worth having.
It will NOT give you any enhanced capability on the left-side and you will find that you're often activating it (dropping the bolt) when you least want it to. If you're using a Norgon Ambi-Catch (which I highly recommend for lefty shooters) you're even more likely to drop the bolt when you don't want to if you're simultaneously using a BAD.
IMO the positioning of the device is an impediment to left-handed shooting. Putting it where you lay you're trigger finger while not shooting is a real flaw.
How long is your trigger finger? I can't get that method to work without removing my hand from the grip.
I have small hands and I have no problem at all activating it, especially with a standard A2 grip. Your catch may be tight but it will loosen with practice. Even still shifting your grip isn't the end of the world. You're not going to die on fire if you shift your hand from the firing grip briefly to drop the bolt as you're mounting it to your shoulder.
Tornado Racing, that is some nice creative work!
Gutshot John
06-24-10, 07:18
Is the bad lever that sensitive to activate?
It's no more sensitive than your standard bolt catch, the problem is that it's a bolt catch on a longer lever. If we apply Archimedes - the longer the lever the less force needed to activate it. On its own a lefty's trigger finger rests directly on it so any movement of the gun, rolling it to the side for instance, can activate the BAD; Coupled with its proximity to an ambi mag release (which is far more value to a lefty) and you've got a real problem.
If you're reloading under stress...in a fight or in a class or in a match and you've shot your gun dry and are trying to reload in a hurry it is ridiculously easy to activate which will slow your reload.
ForTehNguyen
06-24-10, 10:10
ive used the BAD in a quick 2 hour class. I like how it performed, the other shooters were interested in it as well. I didn't accidentally engage it, but then again I mall ninja practice in the living room sometimes. You have to slightly retrain yourself to use it.
Army Chief
06-24-10, 12:33
On its own a lefty's trigger finger rests directly on it so any movement of the gun, rolling it to the side for instance, can activate the BAD; Coupled with its proximity to an ambi mag release (which is far more value to a lefty) and you've got a real problem.
I cannot stress this strongly enough. The B.A.D. is an extremely innovative piece of kit that a dedicated right-handed firer may well be able to use to maximum effect, but in a left-handed context, it creates far more problems than it solves. Magazine release is compromised on the left side if you've got a Norgon installed, and if you're releasing the magazine from the right side, the odds that you will inadvertently sweep the B.A.D. while coming off of the mag release strike me as very high, the video notwithstanding.
GJ's other point is pure gold: you don't want anything in line with your trigger finger, and of you've got the left hand on fire control, that simply cannot be avoided with the B.A.D. It is hard enough dealing with the selector lever, which coincidentally is why I am beginning to see real merit in the BAD Ambi Selector concept ... but that is another post for another thread.
Love the B.A.D. concept because I admire the manner in which Magpul so consistently innovates; that said, it is a BAD idea (pun more or less tolerated) for a port-shouldered firer. Yes, it can be made to work -- but what is the benefit of that if it creates 2-3 new problems in the process that are even more serious than the bolt release issue?
AC
tvfreakarms
06-25-10, 05:31
What are your thoughts on the troy version? Although it's not out yet, but i would assume it would be the same cause they look exactly the same.
I cannot stress this strongly enough. The B.A.D. is an extremely innovative piece of kit that a dedicated right-handed firer may well be able to use to maximum effect, but in a left-handed context, it creates far more problems than it solves. Magazine release is compromised on the left side if you've got a Norgon installed, and if you're releasing the magazine from the right side, the odds that you will inadvertently sweep the B.A.D. while coming off of the mag release strike me as very high, the video notwithstanding.
GJ's other point is pure gold: you don't want anything in line with your trigger finger, and of you've got the left hand on fire control, that simply cannot be avoided with the B.A.D. It is hard enough dealing with the selector lever, which coincidentally is why I am beginning to see real merit in the BAD Ambi Selector concept ... but that is another post for another thread.
Love the B.A.D. concept because I admire the manner in which Magpul so consistently innovates; that said, it is a BAD idea (pun more or less tolerated) for a port-shouldered firer. Yes, it can be made to work -- but what is the benefit of that if it creates 2-3 new problems in the process that are even more serious than the bolt release issue?
AC
Army Chief
06-25-10, 10:22
I'm not sure that my thoughts are any more or less relevant than anyone else's, but to me, it comes to this: any bolt release mechanism that is mounted on the left side of the lower receiver is almost certainly going to impede progress to an ambidextrous magazine release, if one has been fitted. If one has not been fitted, then I might suggest that you've got your priorities all mixed up, so there is no need to continue reading.
Aftermarket bolt release levers are, by nature, external to the receiver, and they generally/usually/always rely on some manner of engagement with the existing release, hence, they will generally/usually/always place some kind of lever in the way of a left-handed firer, and will generally/usually/always place some kind of protrusion into the trigger area. That strikes me as bad business, and I continue to struggle to see how what you gain can in any way offset what you lose. I know there are those who will take exception to this opinion, and who feel that they (as left-handed firers) are using the B.A.D. to good effect. Well, if you try hard enough, you can probably figure out a way to use a right-handed 7 iron to drive a golf ball, too, but that doesn't automatically serve to make it a good business practice. We're not talking about working with right-handed scissors here; we're talking about configuring a weapon system.
If you are a left-handed firer looking for ways to optimize your weapon, I would start with a Norgon or comparable mag release. I would also recommend the BAD Ambi Selector Switch (which I will have more to say about elsewhere) or another well-designed ambi selector. You can get a very good ambidextrous charging handle from Badger or Armadynamics, should that be your desire. You can even opt for a VLTOR MUR upper receiver that places the forward assist in a position that gives a left-hander more clearance to get to the CH.
That said, when it comes to this business of the bolt release, if it is really that important to you, I would advise you to invest in a dedicated receiver (i.e. POF, KAC, MPLA, etc.) that features an internal bolt release on the right side of the weapon, or learn how to efficiently actuate the existing release without the addition of handles, levers, pulleys, shackles, clevises, cables, snaps, actuators, rods, hooks, bolts, wires, fittings, clips, swivels or other creative improvisations. You get the idea, and more to the point, the stock release just isn't that hard to get to.
Now, I am not suggesting that I am the unquestioned sage arbiter of truth and knowledge on this issue; however, I do think that there are far better alternatives than trying to become the world's most proficient left-handed B.A.D. operator. The B.A.D. is great kit, but only when used as designed, and if you are a southpaw (like me), then it just wasn't designed for you.
Is the Troy version going to be any better? Perhaps, but only if you are also fitting their proprietary ambidextrous mag release. I tend not to have too much overt interest in this myself (at least, not yet), but by all means, take a look (http://store.troyind.com/Enhanced_Trigger_Guard_p/sbol-amb-00bt-00.htm), study the geometry, consider the interface, and feel free to draw your own conclusions. Troy has obviously made a commitment to fielding ambi components, but it is hard to know how successfully any of these will deal with the problems that we are already seeing with retrofits like the B.A.D. Just keep in mind that, whatever you do, you will be taking your weapon farther and farther away from a baseline configuration, which may be an issue for those whose armament interests are professional, rather than personal.
AC
militarymoron
06-25-10, 11:02
as a lefty, i agree with everything AC said above.
I'm kind of navigating my way through shooting an AR Left handed, I'm right handed, left eye dominant, I decided I'd just come to terms with it so to speak and begin shooting rifles left handed.
I switched to an LMT Ambi Selector (I haven't handled a Scalloped KAC selector, but honestly, I like the Ambi selector with the full selector from LMT because it allows me to switch to Fire with my left thumb (and given how my thumb is angled without switching my grip) I use my left index finger to manipulate it back to safe, actually more along the lines of my left index first knuckle. I can manipulate it pretty well, and am satisfied.
Scalloped, I don't think I'd have as much control, at first it took some getting used to to the ambi-selector I thought I might bump it with my grip, this hasn't been my experience.
Second, I've posted questions about it on this forum, as far as you the Bolt release is concerned, I went down the path in theory with you guys, looking for a lever... as time progressed, I realized, you really can just place your index finger down on the bottom of the Bolt catch and get it to engaged. Disengaging it/releasing the bolt I haven't had enough time to do on the range, but I'm thinking I'm going to have to move my left hand and hit it with my middle finger.
You can manipulate the Bolt Release better than a right handed shooter in the gun's standard configuration.
I might figure out a way to do it all with my index which would be ideal, but... I really don't see anything that the BAD or any other lever would fix, in fact, as Army Chief stated, I think it complicates the situation. When looking back, a Bolt release (in the BAD configuration, what tornado racing has done is beautiful, and I'd love to buy one of those if he ever starts making them) lever is actually a solution for right handed shooters to control the bolt catch/release without having to use their left hand, it really is a three handed operation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G02WjXBmoss (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G02WjXBmoss)
What you can do to lock a bolt to the rear left handed is just grab the charging handle, press the bottom of the bolt release down, and pull the charging handle back, catching it. Releasing it... you might be able to use your index, you might have to use your middle, I dunno, I haven't quite got that one sorted out yet, but you can do it with your left hand.
Where as locking the bolt to the rear right handed without a BAD Lever, is you need to somehow hold the bolt release in a position to get it to catch the bolt release, and pull the charging handle to the rear. Which means neither hand will be in a position to fire the weapon or handle the weapon.
Where as running it left handed you can manipulate the bolt catch/release with your left hand.
I'm going to be completely straightforward with you from what I've observed of the BAD, and from what I understand, Magpul didn't design the BAD for speed reloads, they designed it because clearing a malfunction with a right handed shooter on an AR requires taking both hands off of the pistol grip and handguards when trying to lock the bolt to the rear, to clear stoppages.
I think the speedier reloads is a by-product of that BAD Lever as well, but, not necessary the intention. Again, I'm just "guessing".
I thought I needed a BAD Type Lever to help me be more efficient with an AR, honestly, for a right handed shooter it does make them faster, for a left handed shooter, I don't see the necessity.
I ordered the Knights Armament Mag release... I'll let you guys know what I think.
An Extension on the bolt release would be nice so that it could be manipulated with the index finger for a right handed shooter, but realistically the only thing it'd speed would be release the bolt, it wouldn't do anything to assist locking it to the rear, for a left handed shooter like Tornado Racing, IMHO, unless you tried to get your finger behind the lever and push up.
But your hand's strength is in clenching/closing, so I find that pushing down on the bottom of the bolt catch would be nice and works extremely well.
Let us know what you do.
theblackknight
06-27-10, 15:43
My point was that a right handed shooter can still operate it with the left hand like the standard manual of arms, even though it is designed to move the function to the right hand trigger finger. The video confirms that it works with both hands.
I can lock back and send bolt home with the BAD both right and left handed. Its Ambi .
I can lock back and send bolt home with the BAD both right and left handed. Its Ambi .
I'm pretty sure that's what I said.
Since we're talking about it, how do you guys manipulate the bad lever when you're shooting left handed?
Just out of curiousity.
Army Chief
06-28-10, 05:59
Left-handed B.A.D. adherents are using the trigger finger to actuate (not necessary during normal operation, but relevant to clearing drills), and right thumb to release (following reinsertion of a fresh magazine).
AC
ForTehNguyen
06-28-10, 07:39
Since we're talking about it, how do you guys manipulate the bad lever when you're shooting left handed?
Just out of curiousity.
post #8
Left-handed B.A.D. adherents are using the trigger finger to actuate (not necessary during normal operation, but relevant to clearing drills), and right thumb to release (following reinsertion of a fresh magazine).
AC
Gotcha.
post #8
I read through the thread, just didn't watch the youtube video.
My mistake.
ETA: linked something as a URL instead of quoting it.
gunnyscouts2
08-11-10, 15:09
I am a left hander and have little trouble operating the AR platform as is. I obtained a left handed Stag last year and decided to play and see if I could make it complete left handed.
The BAD lever is the easiest as it can be operated with left trigger finger and thumb of right hand to release.
The other option I found was, I believe it is the DPMS tac release. It has a larger round paddle on the top the a downward L bar with a paddle on the bottom. I took a torch and heated the lower paddle and bent it slightly outward allowing my trigger finger to go between the reciever and the back of the lower paddle. This enabled me to lift up the lower paddle to lock the bolt back and slap the lower paddle down to release the bolt. It cost me $8. I have now done about five of these for left handed friends and the rifle can still be operated right handed or left.:)
gunnyscouts2
08-11-10, 15:11
Just read BWT post about the Knights Arm ambi mag release. I put it on my Stag and love it. I also works very well with the Tac release I modified above.
For the leftys, I think this lever might be better than a B.A.D. (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=9900/Product/AR_15_EXTENDED_BOLT_RELEASE), and maybe more what you're looking for. :)
tvfreakarms
08-23-10, 07:10
It's almost like the bad. Do you have this one installed on your AR?
For the leftys, I think this lever might be better than a B.A.D. (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=9900/Product/AR_15_EXTENDED_BOLT_RELEASE), and maybe more what you're looking for. :)
ForTehNguyen
08-23-10, 07:47
i dont see how thats any better for a BAD, its almost the same thing just useless for righties but more expensive. The BAD is useful to both.
i dont see how thats any better for a BAD, its almost the same thing just useless for righties but more expensive. The BAD is useful to both.
I thought about using the device he listed, but I've put all gun related purchases on suspension until further notice, some family members became unemployed so...
But, I'll say this, some were using their thumbs to activate the BAD, I don't know about you but my thumb reaches right about to the socket of the Selector Switch, my thumb length would probably literally have to double in length to reach the bad lever, where as my left index finger will reach to right below the bolt release, so I could use that product.
I don't know if I could or couldn't get that to work in conjunction with the Mag release I have or not.
I haven't gotten the gun out and shot it much to be honest and with the way things are, I won't be until further notice.
So I haven't been releasing the bolt, but in just manually removing/loading magazines into the well, remedial actions at home, I love the KAC mag release, the spring was a little stiff/awkward at first, but, it softened and it's very easy to manipulate.
As a side note I also PM'd KevinB wondering about where the ambi-mag release makes contact with the receiver, wondering if it would wear the receiver finish since it puts the pressure on it, he said it wouldn't, and honestly, I haven't seen any wear on the finish, if you were going to go with an Ambi Bolt release, you'd probably have to use something like the Norgon, but, I like the KAC personally.
But then again I've never used the Norgon, so, take that with a grain of salt.
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