View Full Version : HK P30L versus SIG P226 E2
The decision to be made: SIG Sauer P226 E2, or HK P30L.
Intended use: (1) Carry, (2) home defense, (3) target recreation.
SIG Sauer PROS: (1) Shortened trigger reach, (2) crisp, short SRT reset, (3) stainless slide.
SIG Sauer CONS: (1) Heavy, (2) grip very rough.
HK PROS: (1) Perfectly textured grip, (2) custom grip options, (3) light weight, (4) highly accurate, (5) low felt recoil.
HK CON: (Only one) Loooooong reset and pull.
If the HK had the SIG trigger, it would win without question, because it better fills my needs in every way . . . except for the damned trigger. The trigger is so important to me that I’d go for the SIG if the grip weren’t so rough.
HELP!
There is a gsmith that does HK trigger jobs for about $65, its not perfect but it makes it feel like it should. Bill Springfield . Buy the HK, have this guy do his work. He has a website so check it out. You ship to him, he priority mail back to you. Reset fixed.
The decision to be made: SIG Sauer P226 E2, or HK P30L.
Intended use: (1) Carry, (2) home defense, (3) target recreation.
SIG Sauer PROS: (1) Shortened trigger reach, (2) crisp, short SRT reset, (3) stainless slide.
SIG Sauer CONS: (1) Heavy, (2) grip very rough.
HK PROS: (1) Perfectly textured grip, (2) custom grip options, (3) light weight, (4) highly accurate, (5) low felt recoil.
HK CON: (Only one) Loooooong reset and pull.
If the HK had the SIG trigger, it would win without question, because it better fills my needs in every way . . . except for the damned trigger. The trigger is so important to me that I’d go for the SIG if the grip weren’t so rough.
HELP!
I went through this same evaluation just 4 months ago. I ended up with the P30. On your pros list for the 226, I not so sure that they are pros over the P30. The trigger reach on the 2 guns should be the same especially with the small backstraps on the P30. The stainless slide on the 226 is only going to make it heavier, and I haven't ever heard of and HK slides rusting. So now we are down to the longer reset. I used to be really concerned about this until I watched and listened to some shooters who are alot more knowledgeable than I. Most of them agree that reset is overrated, and that most shooters can't perform to a level to see any difference. My p 30 trigger was good out of the box, but some like to have theirs cleaned up. Bill Springfield can do this for around $60, I have heard great things about his work. In the end I think you should get the one that suits you and your needs. These are 2 great platforms and will both serve you extremely well.
There is a gsmith that does HK trigger jobs for about $65, its not perfect but it makes it feel like it should. Bill Springfield . Buy the HK, have this guy do his work. He has a website so check it out. You ship to him, he priority mail back to you. Reset fixed.
I don't believe Bill can shorten the reset on the P30, only make it smoother and shave some weight off the DA and SA pull. I think Bruce Gray can but his prices are quite a bit higher. Here are links to Bill & Bruce's websites.
http://www.triggerwork.net/index.html
http://grayguns.com/
I don't believe Bill can shorten the reset on the P30, only make it smoother and shave some weight off the DA and SA pull. I think Bruce Gray can but his prices are quite a bit higher. Here are links to Bill & Bruce's websites.
http://www.triggerwork.net/index.html
http://grayguns.com/
+1 to this. Gray does other work as well, not just the trigger, as a package for around $300, Springfield does not work on reset. I'd take the HK.
In that size, I'd go with the P30L - simply due to the fact that it's lighter, and normally people will carry what's lighter. I find both of these pistols comparable and easy to shoot well - so weight would be the factor for me at least.
With that said, I'd go with the Sig 229 E2 if you were considering the P30 size. YMMV.
I thought the P30 proved itself quite well during Todd Green's endurance test. Go to www.pistol-training.com.
Magic_Salad0892
06-26-10, 06:19
I wouldn't go for the SIG just based on QC issues as of late.
I've heard of too many parts breaking.
If anybody has an interjection I'd love to have it in this topic. SIG used to make a great product. Pre 2004.
variablebinary
06-26-10, 06:35
The E2 is a no nonsense weapon that is a throwback to what we expect from SIG of old. To me the E2 changes are all logical, with little fluff
The redisgned grip and controls do feel better to the hand, and the SRT is a great DA/SA trigger. The DA is long, but smooth, while the reset is ridiculously short and light
I like the grip on the P30 more, but I dont think it shoots as nicely and the trigger isnt as good as the E2 IMHO. It's pretty awful actually.
HK is more consistent than SIG these days when it comes to making a G2G pistol, though
superr.stu
06-26-10, 06:36
i had the same debate a while back...ended up getting a M&P with some Apex parts and a x300 for around the same money.
That being said out of the 2 P30L all the way
I can't stand the reset on a P30 da/sa. If It were me I would get the Sig and hope that someday HK will import a P30L in lem.
gtmtnbiker98
06-26-10, 10:12
I can't stand the reset on a P30 da/sa. If It were me I would get the Sig and hope that someday HK will import a P30L in lem.
They already are importing P30Ls in LEM, Cross Creek Guns has them.
The Dumb Gun Collector
06-26-10, 10:17
Buy the HK. IMHO SIGs just aren't worth the gamble anymore.
ColdDeadHands
06-26-10, 10:23
HK P30L for sure!
They already are importing P30Ls in LEM, Cross Creek Guns has them.
If that is the case I change my vote to HK.
Thanks for the info.
gtmtnbiker98
06-26-10, 12:49
If that is the case I change my vote to HK.
Thanks for the info.It is I handled one last Wednesday, they are the light LEM, too.
HK win's easily. Sig is in the toilet these days.
I own a P226 E2. The quality on mine is 100% SIG of the old school.
Honestly, for your requirements however, I wouldn't pick either of the two pistols you've narrowed it down to. Both are, in my mind, slightly too large to make good EDC guns. The 226 is a bulky, full size pistol. The P30 is too long in the grip for my tastes.
I would look at the P229 E2 which is inbound any day now.
Though, honestly, a Glock 19 would suit you just fine and that is what I carry most of the time and shoot 95% of the time. All my other pistols are curiosities that I enjoy, but the Glock 19 is my go-to gun.
Guys, I really appreciate the input. I've corresponded with Bill and he does not do reset. Bruce does a package for about $300 USD.
I have done a lot of reading - and thinking - and as of now, I'm tending toward 9mm HK P30L V1.
I own a P226 E2. The quality on mine is 100% SIG of the old school.
Honestly, for your requirements however, I wouldn't pick either of the two pistols you've narrowed it hours drive time back and forth. down to. Both are, in my mind, slightly too large to make good EDC guns. The 226 is a bulky, full size pistol. The P30 is too long in the grip for my tastes.
I would look at the P229 E2 which is inbound any day now.
Though, honestly, a Glock 19 would suit you just fine and that is what I carry most of the time and shoot 95% of the time. All my other pistols are curiosities that I enjoy, but the Glock 19 is my go-to gun.
I don't know about you. I have no problem carrying my HK45. Heck I drove too Miami and back with it.
CougarBlue
06-29-10, 18:42
If it were me I would go with the HK for what you are looking for.
FWIW you can put some extra cash into working on the trigger, but you won't be able to change the Sig grip to get what you love in the HK. I have had work done on all of my HK triggers and have been very happy with the results.
Cougar, those are my thoughts as well.
One of the complaints I've read about the LEM trigger is that the pull weight feels progressively heavier until discharge. Again, I haven't had any time with any HK yet, but I actually like that feature. For one thing, it is a great way to avoid unintended discharge in a tense SD situation. For another thing, it just sounds like it would feel right. I believe I'd like that sensation better that having no change in sensation as the trigger is being squeezed.
The interchangeability - and the contours - of the grips is another factor, and the light weight and low perceived recoil are others pushing me toward the HK. By the time I actually have the bucks to buy one, it (I hope) will come in V1 LEM.
My 0.2 cents: I almost had the same decision to make a few months back. Replace my well worn Beretta 92, spend a lot of money on a HK P30L or go Glock. I decided on cost vs performance to go G17. It has turned out to be a good decision for me.
Oh, they are not rumors, PPGMD. I can personally attest to a few of my Sigs wearing through the anodizing on my recently produced P226s and P229s. I tend to shoot a lot and I used Enos SG Medium and my frames were simply not holding up to the use that I was subjecting them to. This same frame degradation can be observed with my department's issued P229R pistols. Those made circa 2004 and earlier have almost zero anodizing wear after hundreds if not, thousands of rounds. The P229s purchased after 2004 have severely worn frame rails and the overall fit/finish of the newer pistols are not up to par to the older pistols.
Although our newer pistols are reliable and accurate, I have to question their service life due to extreme frame wear. This isn't conjecture but personally witnessed observations. Sig is not what it used to be.
So a bit of frame wear is in the toilet? Have you actually worn out a Sig?
Flork, a poster here, and a former Gray Guns smith wrote up an inspection guide, and based on his guide, and my experience most Stainless Sigs will experience some sort of frame wear.
http://grayguns.com/guide-to-sig-sauer-pistol-inspection/
# Shiny Black – Slight wearing in of the pigment in the anodizing, this is normal after around 200 rounds.
# Dark Gold/Orange – The pigment in the anodizing is starting to wear, this is perfectly normal and not a problem, the metal is still protected and your frame is still perfectly viable. Most guns reach this phase between 2,000 and 4,000 rounds.
# Bright Gold – The pigment in the anodizing is wearing in. Your frame is still protected and your gun is still perfectly viable. Most guns reach this phase and remain static from here on out as long as proper lubrication is used.
It's just the nature of the beast.
gtmtnbiker98
06-30-10, 12:45
@PPGMD, no haven't per se worn one out. But one has to question the excessive wear in terms of longevity. With that said, I switched to polymer and no longer have to worry about excessive attention to lubrication on the Sig pistols.
I'd like to hear about Todd's experiences with that. I've never heard of it before, and there are a gazzilion polymer frames out there.
I'd like to hear about Todd's experiences with that. I've never heard of it before, and there are a gazzilion polymer frames out there.
http://pistol-training.com/archives/category/range-reports/mp-monday
http://pistol-training.com/archives/category/range-reports/p30-thursday
It's no implication that the pistols suck, simply that he reached the end of the service life of the parts involved. These are mechanical objects and the parts will not last forever.
Hmm... which is better, a pistol with a unnecessarily high bore-axis that has only one lever on the side in a poor place to inadvertently hit when using a proper thumbs-forward grip and that has a crappy trigger/reset, or, another unnecessarily high bore-axis pistol that has not just one but two levers in poor places to inadvertently hit when using a proper thumbs-forward grip but has a better trigger...
IMO I'd try a good old G17 if you haven't in a while, even get fancy and take a look at an RTF2 or Gen4 version if you want, you'll end up with a just as good if not better gun with half the parts to mess up or wear out that you can detail strip in seconds and that you can play with the trigger all you want without needing any gunsmith's help.
...that you can detail strip in seconds and that you can play with the trigger all you want without needing any gunsmith's help.
I take it you've never attempted to work on a Sig. IMO Sigs have less gotchas then Glocks when it comes to reassembly.
Also the reset of the Sig in question is shorter then a Glock reset IMO. The Sig SRT kit dramatically reduces the reset.
http://pistol-training.com/archives/category/range-reports/mp-monday
http://pistol-training.com/archives/category/range-reports/p30-thursday
It's no implication that the pistols suck, simply that he reached the end of the service life of the parts involved. These are mechanical objects and the parts will not last forever.
Do you feel that a metal frame would have performed better in the same circumstances than the polymer frame?
Do you feel that a metal frame would have performed better in the same circumstances than the polymer frame?
I have no idea, and I didn't mean it imply it was any failing with the polymer nature. Simply pointing out that polymer frame doesn't elevate the issue of reaching the end of the service life of the firearm.
I take it you've never attempted to work on a Sig. IMO Sigs have less gotchas then Glocks when it comes to reassembly.
Also the reset of the Sig in question is shorter then a Glock reset IMO. The Sig SRT kit dramatically reduces the reset.
You're kidding right? I said detail-strip, not field strip, and even then, I'm still missing you completely here. I've actually taken quite a few Sigs down soup to nuts and I've even installed a couple short-triggers.
A Glock has 3 pins total to push out and after that you're just about done.
A Sig's sear block has 2 pins in itself and that's after you've unscrewed and removed the grip panels, pushed out the take-down-lever, pushed out a few other pins to get the trigger and trigger block out, removed the side spring and removed the slide-stop and de-cocker, carefully tensioned the hammer-spring to lift that out, etc... and even then you haven't even started on the slide...
To each his own, I just find the levers on the sides of Sigs to be a liability, and that in general they have design features that are left overs from when the weaver-stance and cup-and-saucer hold was the cutting edge... JMHO.
I take it you've never attempted to work on a Sig. IMO Sigs have less gotchas then Glocks when it comes to reassembly.
I haven't done much with Sigs, but I did install a short trigger in my P229R. I've detail stripped a Glock (slide and frame) about a half a dozen times and the frame itself more times than I can count.
The Glock is about the easiest pistol I've come across to strip down and reassemble. That's not a knock on Sigs, it just is what it is. 3 pins and the frame is virtually done. Rear slide cover plate, striker assy, extractor assy, FPS. Slide is done.
To the OP, given the prioritizations you've made, I'd think that the P30 is a better fit. I'd personally go for the standard length P30 though.
To each his own, I just find the levers on the sides of Sigs to be a liability, and that in general they have design features that are left overs from when the weaver-stance and cup-and-saucer hold was the cutting edge... JMHO.
Huh? It's only a minor adjustment to prevent from holding down the slide lock lever. Beyond that the decocking lever shouldn't effect your grip at all.
And it's not like Glocks don't have it's design issues, it has it's own particular grip angle that few replicate, and it has a low bore axis without a beaver tail.
IMO people get too wrapped up with their favorite brand to see the other side of the coin. Every pistol has it's quarks, design issues, and problems. I only defend the Sig because no one else attempted to.
Right now, I shoot Sig, in a couple years I might be shooting Glock after the Gen 4 19 has time to prove itself, and the after market supply line catches up (in particularly NLTA kits, and 22LR kits). Or I might be another brand. But I don't let myself get so wrapped up in the brand that I can't see it's own little issues.
The Glock is about the easiest pistol I've come across to strip down and reassemble. That's not a knock on Sigs, it just is what it is. 3 pins and the frame is virtually done. Rear slide cover plate, striker assy, extractor assy, FPS. Slide is done.
I didn't say easier I said less gotchas. IMO gotchas are the difference between a pistol that has to go to a gun smith and one that just about anyone can do at home. The Glock has a couple including one that tends to only show itself at the range after assembly. Sigs has one, but it will show itself during post assembly testing.
Anyways they are both easy to take down pistols, but you have to know what you are doing. Particularly with the Glock.
I vote for the p30 standard length.
-I used to carry a p226, and it seemed noticeably heavier and bulkier than a p30.
-I prefer the LEM to conventional DA/SA
-Conventional wisdom here and elsewhere is that buying a Sig is a QC gamble, whereas H&K's QC is as good as you will find.
-Both will have very low recoil.
-In my hands, the H&K comes back on target faster (YMMV).
-Both will be more accurate than just about any of us.
-I prefer the ergonomics on the H&K, but my giant ape hands might factor into this.
-The H&K is more forgiving of being run dry.
That said, I carry an M&P ;)
Having had the opportunity at the gun show to fondle each, I have been smitten by the HK P30 group. That's the way I'm going.
I miss Todd. I wish that he would come back. Oh and I vote HK
What happened to Todd?
Robb Jensen
07-04-10, 23:57
If I could afford it I'd buy both the HK P30L in LEM and a SIG P226 E2. Both are really nice examples of what each company can make.
Mr. Goodtimes
07-05-10, 08:38
do you believe that sig has squared away their quality controll issues? If so, what would be a fair price to pay for an E2?
Robb Jensen
07-05-10, 08:52
do you believe that sig has squared away their quality controll issues? If so, what would be a fair price to pay for an E2?
There are still issues....
Mr. Goodtimes
07-05-10, 09:07
There are still issues....
what are some of the problems still being experienced?
what are some of the problems still being experienced?
My P226 E2 failed to reset in single action after less than 30 rounds. The gun had to be decocked in order to fire. Sig replaced the trigger bar. The gun now intermittently fails to reset at the short reset point, the trigger must be let all the way out to reset. The gun is now on its second trip to Sig and I have fired fewer than 200 rounds through it.
Mr. Goodtimes
07-05-10, 16:37
My P226 E2 failed to reset in single action after less than 30 rounds. The gun had to be decocked in order to fire. Sig replaced the trigger bar. The gun now intermittently fails to reset at the short reset point, the trigger must be let all the way out to reset. The gun is now on its second trip to Sig and I have fired fewer than 200 rounds through it.
This isnt very reassuring. It's too bad sig went to hell. The more I read the more I'm swayed towards HK.
I understand that some will recommend the SIG over the HK...but other than that, is there any reason NOT to get the P30?
I understand that some will recommend the SIG over the HK...but other than that, is there any reason NOT to get the P30?
Longer reset, sorely lacking part support, weird mag release placement, and cheaper mags (I pay $23 a mag).
Issues like Joshs posted are likely the exception rather then the rule, Sig sells 100k pistols a year, it's only likely that a few bad ones will get out. I think it's funny that Sig has a couple of issues and everyone is "Oh they are so bad, you might as well buy a Hipoint." When companies like S&W, Springfield, and even Glock have had major issues, some unresolved (like a pistol with a light rail, that won't cycle with a light attached) and they get a pass.
It took me exactly one range trip using my trigger finger on the mag release to get used to the P30 and now it seems so natural, I wonder why they all are not like that....
The "quality" argument has had nothing to do with my decision to go with the HK. The SIG P226 E2 is still a sweet piece. It's just that the feel of the HK P30 family is sweet beyond belief.
It's just that the feel of the HK P30 family is sweet beyond belief.
The Hk45, and the P30 were the first Hk pistols that are actually ergonomic, when Hk designed the grips they finally did it right. The Hk LEM system is also much better then the Sig DAK about on par with Sig DA/SA. But those aren't arguments that were really discussed here.
Both are excellent pistols, now go shoot the snot out of it.
crazymoose
07-05-10, 21:20
The Hk45, and the P30 were the first Hk pistols that are actually ergonomic, when Hk designed the grips they finally did it right. The Hk LEM system is also much better then the Sig DAK about on par with Sig DA/SA. But those aren't arguments that were really discussed here.
Both are excellent pistols, now go shoot the snot out of it.
I agree with this. I've long hated almost every pistol HK has made, but being 1) curious, and 2) a glutton for punishment, I recently bought a P30L with the DA mechanism. Very happy with it. Accuracy is fine, ergonomics are superb (the large backstrap and side panels make the grip fit my hand like a ball of clay I squeezed), gun has thus far been reliable, and seems well made. True to its HK roots, the P30L's trigger sucks, but if you're looking at the LEM, you might sidestep this issue.
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