View Full Version : Larue vs DD FF rails
Alaskagrown
06-01-07, 22:51
I am looking at either the Larue 12" or the Daniel Def 12". Is there any reason to choose one over the other? The only differences I have seen were price and the knurled ring.
Razorhunter
06-01-07, 23:30
The DD Lite Rail does not have the ring like the Larue has, and this allows a continuous rail across the top of your rifle, flush with the flat top receiver.
I prefer the continuous rail, as it is just my cup of tea, however, it's not necessary much of the time.
IF you don't care either way, then the Larue might be for you.
I THINK the DD Lite Rail might be a bit lighter than the Larue, but I'm not 100% sure about that.
I do know the DD Lite rails are LIGHT as hell though!
BOTH companies have EXCELLENT freaking customer service. Can't say enough good about them both...
Marler5811
06-01-07, 23:37
The Daniel Defense M4 12.0s are tried, true, and currently in use with the Army Marksmanship Unit on their SDMRs. They are CNC Machined, Type III Hardcoat Anodized, and come with the customers choice of ladders or panels in whatever color you choose (Black, Coyote Brown, OD Green) if they order direct. Also, Daniel Defense has a 100% satisfaction guarentee. I say go with DD.
militarymoron
06-01-07, 23:57
i have some pics and info on both the DD 12.0 lite and LaRue 12.0 on this page (username and password are both 'mm' to view larger photos). maybe it'll help you with your decision:
http://www.militarymorons.com/weapons/ar.uppers.html
Alaskagrown
06-02-07, 00:30
thanks I was referring to the DD M4 rail more thoughts welcome:D
Larue rails are on some 1st and 5thSFG M4A1's - as well as other entities.
I prefer the Larue rail due to the lock ring.
DON'T get the Aluminum barrel nut if you chose DD. I've had a lot of problems with them deforming.
Besides being tank tough, the Larue has that cool "Live Free or Die" on the side.
Honestly, both are good outfits with a quality product. I just happen to prefer Larue.
The DD was a tad lighter. The widths of the side rails, and the height of the lower rail are different. This made the DD feel too skinny in my hands, especially when using ladder panels or if you're already used to the width of the M4 handguard . MM has good photos showing this cross section difference.
http://i12.tinypic.com/5xqhhro.jpg
Does one look like a little more time went into its design and manufacture? They're both excellent rails, but my choice now is LaRue. The DD in the photo has since been sold.
When I had both rails I measured both with a caliper. I have since lost the dimensions, but I do remember that the DD & LT were nearly identical in width, with the DD being taller due to the bottom rail being further away from the centerline of the barrel. Interestingly, this lower bottom rail is what allows the DD to mount over a shaved FSB where the LT will not.
My take on the two is this.
LT Pros:
sling swivel hole integral to rail
less expensive
higher bottom rail
LT Cons:
heavier
won't fit over shaved FSB
LT Subjective:
tube epoxied to collar
DD Pros:
lighter
fits over shaved FSB
DD Cons:
more expensive
lower bottom rail
DD Subjective:
tube welded to collar
I call the tube fastening method (epoxy vs. weld) subjective because everyone has their own opinions about which is better. Personally I don't give a damn. I've had both, run both hard, and never had a problem with either one. I prefer the DD because it's lighter and fits over a shaved FSB, that's all.
rob- it's not expoxied ;)
kisara- my first 9.0 looked like yours that you sold. I exchanged it later for a 12.0FSPM and it was much "sharper" around the edges and overall looked to be finished a little better. Then I sent it off to have my custom cut-job refinished and it came back with all of the Duracoat stripped and new laser engraved T-numbers and markings it didn't have before.
I just got a 10.0 M4 rail for my 11.5" BCM and It's even better!
It does feel skinny with ladder panels. But luckily I love the look of the KAC panels and altogether, the combo feels very similar to an M4 handguard.
I like DD a lot but it would be nice to have rear sling swivel QD points standard like the LaRue.
The one thing I don't understand is the talk about the extra pieces that lock the LT in place. I haven't tested both side by side but can't imagine it does any better of a job than the internal pins on the DD do.
With the DD, two pins are placed in the barrel nut once it's tigthened down. Those pins coincide with holes in the handguard tube and once the nut tightens down, the handguard can't twist either direction because of those pins.
I don't understand why having an exposed backing plate and two hex screws is any more secure or better in any way. Those screws screw through the backing plate into the barrel nut, right? Therefore everything is dependent upon the barrel nut and how tight it is, right?
All my rails are LaRue.
LT Cons:
heavier
won't fit over shaved FSB
I've gotten 2 LaRue rails (my 10.0 and USMC03's 11.0) to fit over shaved FSBs. If it won't fit the first time, then keep shaping the FSB until the LaRue fits over it. Not that hard if you've already started cutting a FSB down in the first place. That is unless you are talking about something completely different, in which case what I said doesn't really matter.:D
militarymoron
06-03-07, 11:12
I don't understand why having an exposed backing plate and two hex screws is any more secure or better in any way. Those screws screw through the backing plate into the barrel nut, right? Therefore everything is dependent upon the barrel nut and how tight it is, right?
the plate interfaces with the front face of the upper receiver and prevents rotation of the handguard relative to the upper receiver. it also prevents the locking ring/collar from loosening.
But for the DD to move, the barrel nut would have to loosen. Wouldn't a loosening barrel nut cause the same problem on a LaRue?
But for the DD to move, the barrel nut would have to loosen. Wouldn't a loosening barrel nut cause the same problem on a LaRue?
Nope.
that's the difference. In fact, with the DD, you can CAUSE the barrel nut to come loose with excessive torque on a vert grip. With the TL, because it's locked against the receiver itself, it's a non-issue.
I just was thinking of how much torque it takes with a 1/2 torque wrench- how much pressure in pounds and how long the handle is (a foot?) and there's no way my stubby TD VFG is going to allow me to loosen the barrel nut.
MY VFG is 1/3 the length and would require therefore 3x the amount of pressure at the end of it to loosen the barrel nut.
It sounds to me like Silvers and his hypothetical reasoning that if his suppressor can take 12 million rounds of FA in one burst (computer simulated) and another company's can't, then his is better.
I understand how that is better for the suppressor but not when you factor in what a real human can actually do to it.
I've got an unobtanium gas tube that prevents my barrel nut from turning! :p
Its not specifically the torque from one movement. The issue is for people who use their guns daily in an enviroment where the vert grip will jostle the tube. Vibrations and such sent up will eventually loosen the handguard retaining ring - the bbl nut will likley still be rock solid -- but the handguard has slipped and the zero on your PEQ-2 is done -- and potentially your PEQ/PAC too. Also its does not need a vert grip for the same vibrations and other movements to cause this.
I have had it happen to KAC FF Tubes which are virtually identical to the DD rails -- and its never happened to the Larue rails I have run.
(Keep in mind I still prefer the KAC URX :p )
IS this an issue for 99% of the users -- no in all likleyhood its not -- I'm just pointing out why Mark was asked to come up with the concept.
Kevin has it spot on.
I still prefer the DD though.:p
militarymoron
06-03-07, 15:33
like kev said, freefloat handguards CAN loosen the barrel nut. remember that the barrel nut's original design was to hold the barrel into the receiver - it didn't carry much load.
now, you're attaching a couple of pounds of weight to it (rail and accessories). all that weight is carried by the barrel nut. the added weight plus heat and vibration is more likely to loosen it up than if it were by itself. for example, imagine the lug nut on your wheels, torque to the specified amount. weld half a pound of steel to it. that lug nut with the weight attached to it is more likely to come loose than the others.
another thing is that if the barrel nut notch doesn't line up properly with the gas tube hole, you're going to under or over-torque it to get it centered. both of those can cause it to loosen more than a correctly-torqued nut, especially with a free float rail attached.
the LaRue system accounts for this - since the LaRue nut can also end up being over or under torqued to line up the gas tube hole. the plate prevents any loosening or rotation of the handguard as well as the barrel nut.
the DD lite, since it uses a different barrel nut that doesn't have to be indexed, can be torqued to the correct value.
Yep. I kinda was expecting those replies. I had thought about that but wanted someone to verify it before I gave larue "props" on that lock. That's just the way I am I guess.
LaRue I'm sure patented that part and it's pretty simple so it's got to be hard and I'm sure impossible for DD to come up with a similar design- that's probably what led to the lite rails coming out with the new locking parts...
OperationParts.com advertises URXIs for $500. Are those all that much outdated by the IIs and IIIs?
Not to get too far OT but I have a question- Will a KAC RAS mount up fine on a Colt RO635 upper with no gas tube? Which of the KAC rails like the RAS and RIS need a gas tube and which don't?
Voodoochild
06-03-07, 16:50
Larue and DD are both GTG IMHO. I have owned both and like them both. Now out of curiosity why is everyone so in love with everything KAC?
Now out of curiosity why is everyone so in love with everything KAC?
My opinion? Status and "rarity".
At the end of the day though the actual differences in any of the DD, LT, or KAC rails is nitpicking at best. Yes, everyone has their favorites and their reasons for their favorites, but they are all really far more similar to each other than they are different.
I like the looks (:rolleyes: ) of the KAC the best just because it's what I've seen on "the real deals" since getting into ARs 4 years ago.
I have always liked the looks of the larger holes in the handguards and how small and round they are and especially how the KAC rail panels give the firearm that the handguards are mounted on the classic M4 look.
Also, some people collect quite a bit and KAC stuff is usually hard to find.
KAC M4 and M5 RAS mount off the bbl nut, the RIS mounts of the handguard cap -- neither need a gas tube for alingment. I've used both on 9mm Colt SMG's
WRT the URX questions - the URX (I) has an aluminum barrel nut -- it was not compatible with the follow one requirements for RISII and the steel bbk nut was adopted. The URX (I) version that OP has is for the SR25 BattleRifle. KAC still has not civilian released the 5.56mm URX's -though some are out depending if you have friends in "low" places ;)
Pat_Rogers
06-04-07, 08:05
Kevin is as usual dead nuts on. He is also correct in that for most, whose guns are seldom subjected to harsh firing schedules, it is a non issue.
I have used most of the rails out there, to include issue RIS and RAS. I have (mostly) Larue on my guns. I have a few RIS/ RAS and M73's that will be replaced as time/$) permit.
I am looking at either the Larue 12" or the Daniel Def 12". Is there any reason to choose one over the other? The only differences I have seen were price and the knurled ring.
Both rails are quality so it is really win/win for you the consumer.
C4
Both rails are quality so it is really win/win for you the consumer.
C4
That's the most important part of all of this- that after KAC had such success other quality machine companies decided to get the ball rolling on their own products which can now be used by anyone who needs them.
like kev said, freefloat handguards CAN loosen the barrel nut. remember that the barrel nut's original design was to hold the barrel into the receiver - it didn't carry much load.
now, you're attaching a couple of pounds of weight to it (rail and accessories). all that weight is carried by the barrel nut. the added weight plus heat and vibration is more likely to loosen it up than if it were by itself. for example, imagine the lug nut on your wheels, torque to the specified amount. weld half a pound of steel to it. that lug nut with the weight attached to it is more likely to come loose than the others.
another thing is that if the barrel nut notch doesn't line up properly with the gas tube hole, you're going to under or over-torque it to get it centered. both of those can cause it to loosen more than a correctly-torqued nut, especially with a free float rail attached.
the LaRue system accounts for this - since the LaRue nut can also end up being over or under torqued to line up the gas tube hole. the plate prevents any loosening or rotation of the handguard as well as the barrel nut.
the DD lite, since it uses a different barrel nut that doesn't have to be indexed, can be torqued to the correct value.
Can a non-FF like the M5 RAS system also cause this problem, or not?
olds442tyguy
01-11-09, 13:43
Doesn't the RIS II have an anti-rotation device?
I prefer DD.
Doesn't the RIS II have an anti-rotation device?
I prefer DD.
Yes it does as do the DD Lite Rails.
C4
I recently Installed a DD Mk18 RIS II and was impressed with the quality, locking system. I also own Larue.
Both are top notch...can't wait for shot show.
Soo...is a Non-FF system like the RAS M5 also prone to twisting barrel nuts or not?
Also, is this an extreme/rare case of "A soldier can mess up/break anything but an anvil." or is it a case of a real issue that needs to be considered?
Soo...is a Non-FF system like the RAS M5 also prone to twisting barrel nuts or not?
A non FF RAS makes contact with the HG cap. This kept from spinning by the gas tube. In order for the barrel nut to come loose, the gas tube would have to give (or bend). This of course can and does happen on occasion.
C4
A non FF RAS makes contact with the HG cap. This kept from spinning by the gas tube. In order for the barrel nut to come loose, the gas tube would have to give (or bend). This of course can and does happen on occasion.
C4
So...what you are saying is for the barrel nut to twist (at the back). The HG cap at the front (and thus gas-tube) would have the shear/bend/whatever since the RAS M5 isn't going to be flexing in a twisting motion.
So I assume the 2005 EB was in reguards to the RIS and not the RAS systems?
How common is it that the RAS M5 loosens a barrel nut? Is this pretty rare, or something I should be wary of?
Steve_Morrison
01-11-09, 15:31
Larue did something very clever/annoying when he designed the inside of his rail- its sized so that only a Larue gas block fits inside, but virtually no one else's aftermarket gas block will fit.
A factory fitted gas block/front sight tower CAN be machined and contoured to fit inside a Larue rail- we do this regularly at my shop- but it is a lot of work, and not for the faint of heart or impatient.
Larue did something very clever/annoying when he designed the inside of his rail- its sized so that only a Larue gas block fits inside, but virtually no one else's aftermarket gas block will fit.
A factory fitted gas block/front sight tower CAN be machined and contoured to fit inside a Larue rail- we do this regularly at my shop- but it is a lot of work, and not for the faint of heart or impatient.
VLTOR's/Noveske's will fit under the LT rail as well.
C4
Epiphany*
The RAS is a 2-part setup and the back of the bottom (The part you would be torqing on with the VFG) has nothing the stabalise it rotationally. It is stabalized in the front (HG cap). Hence the gas-tube at the front would have to shear for the thing to rotate and twist the barrel-nut loose via the interface with the top half of the rail/barrel-nut.
Sounds bulletproof to me.
Anyone hear of the RAS system causing a loose/twisted barrel nut?
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