View Full Version : M4C/VICKERS Carbine AAR
This was the very first M4Carbine training class with Larry Vickers www.vickerstactical.com as the instructor. The facility used was GTA http://www.gta.dynalias.org/ and we would like to thank Bill B. for letting hold the class there!
Since this was a basic carbine class, we saw a lot of first time shooters. One of the shooters commented to me that about the first couple hours on the first day were “basic carbine” and then LAV immediately went to intermediate level. This was an eye opener for many to say the least. Larry has a very good ability at judging the speed at which the class could move. This is an important skill to have when dealing with new shooters.
The importance of accuracy was stressed and all of the drills used were done so to help the shooter bring their skills up to speed quickly. Because of this, the shooters abilities grew rapidly and there was a noticeable improvement from one day to the next. It is fantastic to watch people take LAV’s knowledge, apply it and then receive the reward for doing so.
Proper gear selection is always a big thing and LAV offered solicited and unsolicited advice on what kit is good and what is bad. This alone is worth the price of admission for many. Some shooters found out that what works great off a bench rest, doesn’t work so well during transition drills, moving and shooting or prone.
For the most part, everyone’s carbines ran well. We had some trigger/hammer pins walk on a student, but no weapons went down. The majority of the students were running custom built G&R or Superior Firearms uppers. The rest were mostly Colt’s and CMMG.
On the second day of training, a special guest appeared on the range. Mr. Ken Hackathorn made a surprise visit and taught a good portion of the day. To say this was a treat for the students is an understatement. Everyone in the class was very excited to get the chance to train with Ken and he didn’t disappoint! As an added bonus, Ken brought an M1 Carbine and an AK for the students to shoot! At the end of the day, we went out to dinner as a class and Ken came along. This was probably the highlight of the day for most of the guys.
To get the opportunity to train with Ken or Larry is a great thing, but to get both of them together on the same range at the same time is simply fantastic! Thanks again Ken for taking the time to train with us.
Thanks you to all that participated in the first M4C training class and a special thanks to VLTOR, Midwest Industries, Noveske Rifleworks, and Tango Down for their support.
C4
Thanks for your hard work Grant in setting up this class and continued support during the 3-days of training.
I learned more in this class than I could possibly have expected, and the opportunity to train under both Mr. Vickers and Mr. Hackathorn was a special treat indeed. No matter how well you shoot on the bench, shooting on the move is truly a humbling experience.
Nathan_Bell
06-04-07, 16:50
I was one of the first time carbine class folks Grant was speaking of, and it was an eye opener. A few impressions I got from the class.
Don't ever ask Larry Vickers a question you don't want to know the answer to. He will think about what you asked and then answer you, but he will pull no punches about the subject at hand if it needs to be beaten.
Larry is possbily one of the best instructors, of any discipline, I have ever worked with. He took very complicated skills and had the lion's share of the class understadning and executing them. He would take the time to walk the line and critique each shooter and their execution of the drill, then would have us move onto another skill building on the one we just learned. Very linear and logical procession of the shooting and moving skills.
GTA has a great facility for this type of class, we worked in a 50 yard pit for the first two days. Which was all we needed for almost all of the drills. THe last day we went to the 150 yardish range, which gave us room for the 180 yard walk back drill (good job Matt, and Grant.) Bill B. had done little things that make it nice to visit a facility.
Grant served several jobs for this, and did a good job of them. He was the target scoring and stapling master, which allowed we attendees to reload, rehydrate, and listen to anything that Larry might be saying, instead of playing with targets or trying to do math:eek: He also had a lunch truck come in with food for us, which was very cool since it was a long haul to the nearest food place. Oh yeah, the lunch was part of the fee. He brought water, ice and of course his huge gear knowledge.
My personal thanks go out to Joe, Barry, Bob, John, and Grant for babysitting a tall guy who was flirting with heat stroke.
Here are some pics of the class. We got some real classics with an authentic window out of a real "short bus!" :eek:
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C%20Carbine13.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C%20Carbine12.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C%20Carbine11.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C%20Carbine1.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C%20Carbine9.jpg
Rare Sight
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C%20Carbine7.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C%20Carbine8.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C%20Carbine6.jpg
LAV showing the students how to "Tuck the bad guys in for a dirt nap!" (Super Dave quote)
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C%20Carbine5.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C%20Carbine4.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C%20Carbine.jpg
Spending some quality time on the "short bus" and "testing LAV's skills."
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C%20Carbine3.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C%20Carbine2.jpg
Kentucky Crew with Ken & Larry
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C%20Carbine10.jpg
We had some trigger/hammer pins walk on a student, but no weapons went down.
I'm told that this never occurs and there is no need for KNS pins.
I'm told that this never occurs and there is no need for KNS pins.
LOL, who ever told you that? I have had pins walk on several of my own guns.
C4
I had a fantastic time while I was there and learned much more than I thought I was capable of. Having Larry's expert opinion on subtle changes you can make to your sling, gear setup, ect was great. The thing I learned the most was how much more pistol practice I need, and how night sights are a must. Unfortunately, I had to leave early on the third day but I look forward to more tutelage from Mr. Vickers.
Thanks for your hard work Grant in setting up this class and continued support during the 3-days of training.
I learned more in this class than I could possibly have expected, and the opportunity to train under both Mr. Vickers and Mr. Hackathorn was a special treat indeed. No matter how well you shoot on the bench, shooting on the move is truly a humbling experience.
You are welcome and thank you for coming!
C4
Jay Cunningham
06-04-07, 17:51
Congrats on the class - I hope it's the first of many M4C sponsored training opportunities.
John_Wayne777
06-04-07, 18:14
Oh dear god....
Somebody actually brought a window to lick.
I believe in comedy, but THAT is real commitment right there....
Looks like a good class. Darn shame I just couldn't go.
I'm really looking forward to the low light class in September with Ken and Larry. It should be a real blast.
Nathan_Bell
06-04-07, 19:01
We also got the treat of a basic low light course out of this deal. It was (excuse the pun) enlightening, I discovered that Grant was not kidding about how difficult easy shit will get when it is dark out.
Truly glad to have had to the chance to get night fighting training from Larry, but almost wish we would have skipped it and gotten Larry and Ken a few beers and just listened to the stories.
Oh dear god....
Somebody actually brought a window to lick.
I believe in comedy, but THAT is real commitment right there....
Looks like a good class. Darn shame I just couldn't go.
I'm really looking forward to the low light class in September with Ken and Larry. It should be a real blast.
Not only was it a real school bus window, but it actually came off a "short bus." ;)
There is a good chance it will show up at the low light class and you can become reacquainted with it. :D
C4
John_Wayne777
06-04-07, 19:36
Truly glad to have had to the chance to get night fighting training from Larry, but almost wish we would have skipped it and gotten Larry and Ken a few beers and just listened to the stories.
That's why we have to start talking them into 5 day courses.
Nathan_Bell
06-04-07, 19:38
Not only was it a real school bus window, but it actually came off a "short bus." ;)
There is a good chance it will show up at the low light class and you can become reacquainted with it. :D
C4
Don't worry, if Bill B. loses that one I have a spare:p
almost wish we would have skipped it and gotten Larry and Ken a few beers and just listened to the stories.
Larry doesn't drink alcohol.
Those are two excellent instructors and the class were lucky to have that surprise appearance by the Tactical Dalai Lama (I notice he has a new blaster).
Nathan_Bell
06-04-07, 20:51
Larry doesn't drink alcohol.
Those are two excellent instructors and the class were lucky to have that surprise appearance by the Tactical Dalai Lama (I notice he has a new blaster).
Neither do I, but the stories we did get were hilarious.
Twas very cool to have them working together, very cool.
Kentucky Crew with Ken & Larry
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Training_Pics/M4C%20Carbine10.jpg[/QUOTE]
Man those are some ugly mugs right there!! Especially the guy on the right :D Man it looked like a fun time. Hope to get in on one of those soon.
On another note....... How did Larry and Ken's 416's run? Did they give any insight into the fact that there is any hope for civvy's? I took a pistol course from Larry back in April and had a great time. I also noticed he was running an EoTech after being a self proclaimed Aimpoint guy. I would be interested to hearing what he had to say about his kit.
I've have to get out and take one of his carbine courses. I hope he comes out west sometime when my schedule is not too balls to the wall.
Great report Grant. It was good to see a picture of a M-1 Carbine at the carbine class. :cool:
I also noticed he was running an EoTech after being a self proclaimed Aimpoint guy. I would be interested to hearing what he had to say about his kit.
He told us in our March carbine class that he's working with the EOT because many of the students were using them.
On another note....... How did Larry and Ken's 416's run? Did they give any insight into the fact that there is any hope for civvy's? I took a pistol course from Larry back in April and had a great time. I also noticed he was running an EoTech after being a self proclaimed Aimpoint guy. I would be interested to hearing what he had to say about his kit.
I've have to get out and take one of his carbine courses. I hope he comes out west sometime when my schedule is not too balls to the wall.
The 416 ran very well (as always). There is no hope for the civy market to get them it appears. :mad:
LAV is running an EOTech 553. While he is an Aimpoint and a 1911 guy, he runs what is most commonly found in his classes (Glock's and EOTech's).
I believe that Aimpoint is his very first choice and EOTech is a second.
C4
tiger seven
06-05-07, 11:36
Looks like a great time.
M1 Carbine AND a revolver! Rare sights indeed.
Congrats to all involved. Hopefully there will be another such class in the future. I would certainly like to be a part of it.
Derek
Nathan_Bell
06-05-07, 15:43
Looks like a great time.
M1 Carbine AND a revolver! Rare sights indeed.
Congrats to all involved. Hopefully there will be another such class in the future. I would certainly like to be a part of it.
Derek
The dude ;) ,Joe, with the revolver was putting more than a few of us pistol shooters to shame. It had to be because that was an 8 shooter, yeah that was why he was kicking my butt:D
He is a master with it for sure!! If I stands close enough I'm hoping some of his skill rubs off............... :D He's a great shooter and very generous enough to share his knowledge. All around awesome guy.
John
LOL, who ever told you that? I have had pins walk on several of my own guns.
C4
Might be a civilian market manufacturer issue with tolerances, Ive been a unit armorer for a few years with over 300 M16A2's to take care of, never had a issue with pins walking. Only time Ive had to mess with those pins is when someone takes apart their lower (obviously not a 10 level task) to clean under the parts and doesnt put it back together right.
LOL, who ever told you that? I have had pins walk on several of my own guns.
C4
Why the experts at TOS, of course. ;)
John_Wayne777
06-05-07, 20:30
Why the experts at TOS, of course. ;)
I just KNEW that was going to be the punchline....
I just KNEW that was going to be the punchline....
I debated calling out the specific individual, but decided against it. But I'm sure you are all knowledgable of what transpires in the technical forums there.
Nathan_Bell
06-05-07, 21:42
I debated calling out the specific individual, but decided against it. But I'm sure you are all knowledgable of what transpires in the technical forums there.
Nicely done
Does Mr. Vickers shoot his rifle primarily left handed and handgun right handed?
It appears that he is running the VCAS sling on the end of the rail near the delta ring and threaded through the stock, is this observation from the picture correct?
Which night sight set up did he recommend/use three dot, 8 style, or front dot only?
You guys look like you had fun. I enjoy picking the brain of Instructors. I wanted to abduct Scott Reitz and take him to work and tell the "experts" see I told you so.
We are truly lucky to be able to learn inder these men.
Thanks.
Stay safe,
Jack
LAV was using H8 on his Glock.
Might be a civilian market manufacturer issue with tolerances, Ive been a unit armorer for a few years with over 300 M16A2's to take care of, never had a issue with pins walking. Only time Ive had to mess with those pins is when someone takes apart their lower (obviously not a 10 level task) to clean under the parts and doesnt put it back together right.
Sometimes it is. It also happens on older weapons where the pin holes open up with time and use.
C4
Why the experts at TOS, of course. ;)
Why of course. Normally, pins shouldn't walk, but I have an old LMT lower that has seen a lot of training and the pins just started to walk on me.
I like KNS pins because I don't have to wait for the dreaded "click" to figure out that my pins have walked on me.
C4
I debated calling out the specific individual, but decided against it. But I'm sure you are all knowledgable of what transpires in the technical forums there.
That guy knows EVERYTHING, but yet know one has ever seen him in a training class. Guess he was born with his knowledge (or got it off the errornet).
C4
Does Mr. Vickers shoot his rifle primarily left handed and handgun right handed?
It appears that he is running the VCAS sling on the end of the rail near the delta ring and threaded through the stock, is this observation from the picture correct?
Which night sight set up did he recommend/use three dot, 8 style, or front dot only?
You guys look like you had fun. I enjoy picking the brain of Instructors. I wanted to abduct Scott Reitz and take him to work and tell the "experts" see I told you so.
We are truly lucky to be able to learn inder these men.
Thanks.
Stay safe,
Jack
LAV shoots long gun left handed and pistol right handed. I have also seen him shoot his long gun right handed at over 80yds and hit a small steel target. So it is safe to say that he can shoot with either just equally well.
LAV likes 8's or just a front tritium post.
C4
:D
I cannot believe LAV actually brought the bus window. I have the funny idea that will be a permanent fixture at the every class from now on.
Damn funny.
:D
I cannot believe LAV actually brought the bus window. I have the funny idea that will be a permanent fixture at the every class from now on.
Damn funny.
He didn't. One of the students did. :D
C4
He didn't. One of the students did. :D
C4
Now that guy gets a A+ in my book.
I would bet nobody has come that prepared for an LAV class before.
- Hell, I'm happy if somebody just brings a rake with them to South Hill.
:D
It would be hilarious if the whole class showed up in a real short bus. :)
Nathan_Bell
06-06-07, 08:52
I think I need to find a stuffed shark for the next class :cool:
John_Wayne777
06-06-07, 09:05
It would be hilarious if the whole class showed up in a real short bus. :)
http://www.k12.hi.us/~mililawa/children_riding_bus.gif
The bolt on my rifle goes back and forth, back and forth, back and forth....the bolt on my rifle goes back and forth, all the livelong day!
Yaaaay!!
http://www.onetimearoundagain.com/halloweenparty/images/costumeideas/special_ed_a3.jpg
Now that guy gets a A+ in my book.
I would bet nobody has come that prepared for an LAV class before.
- Hell, I'm happy if somebody just brings a rake with them to South Hill.
:D
Its almost like the person that brought it just kind of assumed that they would be licking it. :D
C4
Nathan_Bell
06-06-07, 10:21
Its almost like the person that brought it just kind of assumed that they would be licking it. :D
C4
I was glad that I was not the first to have to lick it, and that when I really earned the need to lick it, the window was on a different range:D
For those of us outside the loop or otherwise ignorant, could someone please explain the window thing?
John_Wayne777
06-06-07, 12:26
For those of us outside the loop or otherwise ignorant, could someone please explain the window thing?
Every now and then if LAV catches you doing something really wrong or really badly he might ask you "how's that window taste?"
More info in this thread:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=5371
For those of us outside the loop or otherwise ignorant, could someone please explain the window thing?
A window licker is basically a guy that is mentally disabled or someone that keeps screwing up drill after drill. :D
C4
And before anybody get upset, these terms were used in joking manners, lighthearted teasing kind of way. LAV is a very patient instructor and would not purposely belittle a student.
Larry Vickers
06-07-07, 10:39
Overall we had a great time and the class was very attentative and applied themselves on every drill - I think everyone got areas identified that they need to work on and also the tools to help them fix whatever problems they may have
I don't believe in herding a bunch of guys through drills without giving individual instruction - that is why I troop the line watching for technique and providing constructive criticism - this technique has been met with very enthusiastic positive feedback from students (as is evidenced by the number of threads about my classes on this board) which tells me I must be doing something right
Looking forward to seeing some of you in the 1911 operators class early July
Be safe
Larry Vickers
www.vickerstactical.com
Wayne Dobbs
06-07-07, 10:54
And Larry, we want you to come to Texas sometime instead of hiding out there on the right coast!
WD
And Larry, we want you to come to Texas sometime instead of hiding out there on the right coast!
WD
Brady maybe?
Found my areas of weakness and was given tools to correct them, can't ask for more than that.
Well, story time was pretty damn cool too.
"My eyes are THIS far apart" :D
Nathan_Bell
06-07-07, 21:22
Found my areas of weakness and was given tools to correct them, can't ask for more than that.
Well, story time was pretty damn cool too.
"My eyes are THIS far apart" :D
NOw, the biggest thing that Ken and Larry stressed. Practice, otherwise it was a really expensive and hot weekend wasted.
I've run an M-16 for 10 years and an AR-15 for probably 20, but I've never learned so much about the two rifles. It was 3 of the most enlightening days I've ever had using a firearm. Larry's not only a talented shooter, he's quite possibly an even more talented teacher. That is something very few people can achieve. I believe Larry wants what is best for his students. I took more away from his class than any class I have ever taken.
Having Ken there was one of the best surprises. It was very refreshing to see the respect Larry and Ken showed one another.
The entire weekend was an unbelievable experience. I would go back tomorrow if I could.
One of the things that sticks out in my mind the most is when Larry saw that I was wearing a revolver and asked me, "Are you wearing a revolver? I don't know if I've ever had anyone in class with a revolver." He asked to see my gun and inquired about the work I had done to it. Larry was very generous with his compliments about my work. I appreciate him taking the time to not only look at my revolver but also walk over to the side and sincerely examine it. He didn't have to spend that much time being personable and polite, but he did it anyway and was very genuine. This speaks volumes to his character. I would like others to know how much dedication Larry showed as a teacher. I would also like to thank him for his personal investment to make his students the best shooters they can be.
A window licker is basically a guy that is mentally disabled or someone that keeps screwing up drill after drill. :D
C4
WL Free Zones are awesome.
What kind of 1911 pistol did Ken used for this class?
John_Wayne777
06-08-07, 07:03
"Are you wearing a revolver? I don't know if I've ever had anyone in class with a revolver."
I had the exact same thought when I saw the pictures. I was looking through them and went...."Dude....is that guy using a wheelgun? Really? In a carbine class? Wow....that's old school.....REALLY old school....I've never seen that before..."
:D
I guess the lesson is: "Beware the man who shows up to a high-speed class packing a wheelgun, for he probably knows how to use it...."
That class looks like it was a lot of fun (not ha-ha fun, "shooting" fun)...
Larry Vickers
06-08-07, 08:14
Thanx for all the kind words - Mr. Wheelgun in the class shot very well and won at least one competition I can think of with said revolver; proving it is the shooter NOT the gun (we already knew that though)
Ken has been my mentor, friend, defacto uncle, teacher, etc. for 20 years - I have literally learned more from Ken Hackathorn than every other instructor I have ever had combined - he calls me the 'kid brother he never had' - I link up and shoot with him whenever I can - the relationship we have transends words
He used a Nighthawk Talon with CTC lasergrips textured by David Bowie - Ken is liable to have one of about 75 different custom 1911's in his holster at any one time - he literally has more custom 1911 pistols that anyone I have ever known or heard of; he has far more than I do and I have alot
Cheers
Larry Vickers
www.vickerstactical.com
Rmplstlskn
06-08-07, 09:34
Larry,
What was that waist rig you were wearing... It looks wide and effective for the purpose, and I assume comfortable since you probably wear it on most of your classes, all day long...
I look forward to my first LAV experience this Sept. in VA for the Battle Rifle class...
Rmpl
Larry:
Thanks for the scoop on Ken's gun, I'd seen him teach before with that NH Talon. Last time he was here, he had a NH Vickers 1911.
I also admired the revolver guy. I thought about taking a class or part of a class with a wheel gun, but never had the balls to do it because it's a lot of work. You have to reload twice or three times more than the double stack 9mm shooters, then you have to refill the speedloaders. For the moonclip shooter, he had to demoon the little stars, that's 3 process to get your gear up and running.
For the folks who want to train with LAV, get a plan, get your group together and someone take charge and put together a class at your location. Larry is a pleasure to work with and like you see here, you won't be disappointed.
Nathan_Bell
06-08-07, 14:30
Larry:
Thanks for the scoop on Ken's gun, I'd seen him teach before with that NH Talon. Last time he was here, he had a NH Vickers 1911.
I also admired the revolver guy. I thought about taking a class or part of a class with a wheel gun, but never had the balls to do it because it's a lot of work. You have to reload twice or three times more than the double stack 9mm shooters, then you have to refill the speedloaders. For the moonclip shooter, he had to demoon the little stars, that's 3 process to get your gear up and running.
For the folks who want to train with LAV, get a plan, get your group together and someone take charge and put together a class at your location. Larry is a pleasure to work with and like you see here, you won't be disappointed.
Wheelgun man had 3? fullmoon reloads on his belt and would not hold anyone up with his reloading skill. 8 round Smith meant he was not reloading anymore than 1911 guys.
Mr. Vickers,
I noted in a class photo that you are running the VCAS at the rear of the rail near the delta ring and attatched through the rear of the sling. Am I seeing this correctly?
Are you using a fixed side sling adapter or one that has movement. Additionally what advice can you offer as far as set up of the VCAS. Ashley is good people I trained in a class with him prior to the VCAS coming out.
I am running the VCAS now. What are some of the frequent issues you see with the sling in classes? Too long, too short. that sort of thing..
Thank you for the time. Come to Sothern Exposure in Lakeland so we can get some LAV training down this way.
Stay Safe.
Gunsight11
06-11-07, 10:10
Optimum situation. Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathron, strongly motivated class, organization by Grant, some night/light work, good range layout and real stories. The only glitch was everyone wanted more. The improvement curve went way up universally.
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