View Full Version : Best Class for Concealed Carry?
ColdDeadHands
07-03-10, 08:10
I'm planing on taking my first class in a couple of months so I'm looking to get some insight here on where to go. I know there is no 'best' but where do you guys recommend I go for a class geared towards concealed carry / defensive handgun? It would be nice if low light would be included as that is where most shootings happen apparently. In Texas would be nice but not a must. I also can't afford a class that costs $1000 or more.
Well if you can make it up this way (Virginia) Dave Pennington teaches a two-day CCW class that is outstanding!
ColdDeadHands
07-03-10, 08:54
Thanks for the tip but 1200 miles is a bit far. I've read the AAR and his class seems to be just what I'm looking for. Maybe we Texans can get him to come visit this great State!
Complication
07-03-10, 10:18
I can count on one hand the classes I've been to, so take this for what it's worth:
My only pistol training has been at an M4C regional shoot (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=44288) and Grant's Defensive Pistol 101 (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=52218). Besides nominal non-member range fees, they've been free, so they're not your typical $600, 2000-round count classes. But all the same, they've been invaluable to me. I'm willing to bet you'll learn more, faster in a class where you're shooting for 8-10 hours a day for 2 days straight and putting a few thousands rounds downrange than the 8 or so hours I've had and the 200-rounds I've shot during them. But don't pass up free-ish classes taught by decent instructors at a nearby gun club.
There's pro's and con's to shooting for a couple hours, going home and running drills by yourself for a few of weeks, and then coming back next month for the next 3-hour class. But it sure is a hell of a lot cheaper than a big single weekend class.
Also, I know The_Katar, who is up around my area somewhere, gets together with folks in the region for little 1-on-1 sessions. You might want to look for someone in your regional forum who has a lot of expertise and might be able to give you a lot of quality and inexpensive attention and then save your money up for a go-fast CCW class next year once you're 100% on the fundamentals and the small stuff (though I get the sense that it's ALL fundamentals and small stuff).
Those are just the contributions from a newbie to this all, though.
ColdDeadHands
07-03-10, 10:43
Mast Solutions holds classes here in Houston but I've kept track of the regional forum and there doesn't seem to go much on here regarding free-ish...a shame really.
Seek out Jeff Gonzales, he's in Texas.
http://tridentconcepts.com/default.aspx
Mike
I would highly recommend Tom Givens as well. IMO Jeff Gonzalez's class is not the first choice for concealed carry.
ColdDeadHands
07-07-10, 12:06
I would highly recommend Tom Givens as well. IMO Jeff Gonzalez's class is not the first choice for concealed carry.
I agree, reading the course description didn't reveal any concealed carry hints.
You may also look into the United States Shooting Academy in OK.
They apparently have a great facility and offer a 5 day comprehensive program.
I agree, reading the course description didn't reveal any concealed carry hints.
My mistake. I thought you wanted to learn how to fight with a pistol. Now that I know all you wanted was to learn how to conceal it, I can help.
Untuck your shirt.
Good luck in your quest!
Mike
I would highly recommend Tom Givens as well. IMO Jeff Gonzalez's class is not the first choice for concealed carry.
Please enlighten me as to why the skills learned in lets say Jeff's class (or any other tier one instructors class) would not translate to concealed carry? What mystical talent is needed in lifting my shirt? How many days do you spent on that special skill set?
Mike
dookie1481
07-07-10, 19:45
Please enlighten me as to why the skills learned in lets say Jeff's class (or any other tier one instructors class) would not translate to concealed carry? What mystical talent is needed in lifting my shirt? How many days do you spent on that special skill set?
Mike
Seriously? You think that's all there is? There's a bit of difference between transitioning to a secondary weapon in a high-intensity conflict and deciding whether the guy walking towards you as you leave ther grocery store need to be shot.
"If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." -Abraham Maslow
TacticalIntervention
07-07-10, 20:30
Louis Awerbuck would be who I would send first time pistol student to.
He travels so check with him as to when he will be in Texas.
Yavepai Firearms Academy is his outfit. Sorry if I messed up the spelling. He is out of Arizonia and as good as it gets.
Seriously? You think that's all there is? There's a bit of difference between transitioning to a secondary weapon in a high-intensity conflict and deciding whether the guy walking towards you as you leave ther grocery store need to be shot.
"If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." -Abraham Maslow
I'm sorry but I don't go to grocery stores. They are too dangerous from what I hear. But back to your main point, where did transitioning come from?
Mike
My mistake. I thought you wanted to learn how to fight with a pistol. Now that I know all you wanted was to learn how to conceal it, I can help.
Untuck your shirt.
Good luck in your quest!
Mike
Slow your roll. 3 of your 4 posts on this forum, and in this thread, have been antagonistic and/or condescending towards other forum members and that's really not necessary in this discussion where the OP is looking for something that's more applicable to day to day carry of a firearm rather than a more combat oriented class. Instead of starting a pissing match with other people why not explain yourself more clearly.
If someone is looking for their first class with a specific emphasis on concealed carry, I would want the class to cover things other than the mechanics of shooting. Mindset and legal consequences come to mind as well. Some classes do a better job of covering it than others. It also helps if your instructor practices the lifestyle he teaches. I would think a LEO or even a civilian that CCW's would have more insight into the daily routine and other issues than a former military operator - who would primarily - although I am sure there are exceptions - be concerned with military applications and open carry, etc...
It would be interesting to poll a large number of instructors to see how many actually CCW on a daily basis - you may be surprised at the results.
Taking any class is a step in the right direction. However, it helps to tailor the instructor and the material to the topics you want to learn first/best.
Please enlighten me as to why the skills learned in lets say Jeff's class (or any other tier one instructors class) would not translate to concealed carry? What mystical talent is needed in lifting my shirt? How many days do you spent on that special skill set?
Mike
If you want training in the practical and technical weaponcraft aspects (including draw, equipment choices, manipulation, etc.) then I agree from firsthand experience that David Pennington and Louis Awerbuck are at the top of the list. David has a great deal of real world experience in concealed carry, and Louis is virtually a walking encyclopedia of technique, equipment, and diagnostics of shooting.
If you want a broader "survey" course that addresses some of those things in less depth, but also covers ethical, legal, and aftermath aspects and practical applications of those areas, then LFI/Massad Ayoob is what you want.
Some people poopoo Ayoob for various reasons, but I took 3 classes at LFI as my first "real" gun classes back in the late 1990s, and while I have done a lot more training since (with guns and with the law) that has lead me to diverge in some respects from Ayoob's views, those classes and most of the basic principles he teaches are sound, and teach you to think in a manner that will allow you to better judge what applies to you and what doesn't.
Slow your roll. 3 of your 4 posts on this forum, and in this thread, have been antagonistic and/or condescending towards other forum members and that's really not necessary in this discussion where the OP is looking for something that's more applicable to day to day carry of a firearm rather than a more combat oriented class. Instead of starting a pissing match with other people why not explain yourself more clearly.
No prob, I'll pump my breaks. My point was simply this, learn how to fight with a pistol first. This includes all the things necessary from drawing from the holster (shirt not over gun makes no difference at this stage to someone taking their first class), all your different reloads & malfunctions drills, but most important...hitting what you aim at. Many good guys were mentioned here to learn from. Most all of them have a Pistol I class which is a perfect starting point.
Once you have the basics down and that's the most important part, then work on shooting from concealment. Which, by the way you can train on your own. As I said before, it's just lifting your shirt or fanning your jacket for Pete's sake. Why pay someone to show you how to do that or pay someone, makes no difference to me.
How is the instructor's pistol class that I mentioned a "combat" (your words not mine) oriented class? How does taking a class like I mentioned not prepare someone to carry day to day? Not trying to start a pissing match, just asking questions.
Mike
No prob, I'll pump my breaks. My point was simply this, learn how to fight with a pistol first. This includes all the things necessary from drawing from the holster (shirt not over gun makes no difference at this stage to someone taking their first class), all your different reloads & malfunctions drills, but most important...hitting what you aim at. Many good guys were mentioned here to learn from. Most all of them have a Pistol I class which is a perfect starting point.
Once you have the basics down and that's the most important part, then work on shooting from concealment. Which, by the way you can train on your own. As I said before, it's just lifting your shirt or fanning your jacket for Pete's sake. Why pay someone to show you how to do that or pay someone, makes no difference to me.
You have a great way of getting your thoughts across when you take the time and I agree with a lot of what you wrote. One of the larger differences is shooting scenarios where you're using more shoot/no shoot situations and discussing legalities and possible repercussions.
How is the instructor's pistol class that I mentioned a "combat" (your words not mine) oriented class? How does taking a class like I mentioned not prepare someone to carry day to day? Not trying to start a pissing match, just asking questions.
I was generalizing since most of the time on M4C people are discussing and showing photos of classes taught by LAV, Hack, Magpul, etc. and the typical gear is battle belts, chest rigs and definitely not geared towards concealed carry for the average Joe.
Yea I guess being short and to the point sometimes comes off as combative.
Andy T, since it is obvious you have not taken a pistol class from Jeff, I can say you did not give the person who started this thread good advise in this case.
I don't get my legal advise from a firearms instructor mil or leo. Conversely, I don't want my attorney teaching me how to shoot & he's former mil.
That's the same advise I would give my sister.
Mike
John_Wayne777
07-08-10, 06:28
Concealed carry entails more than just skill with a handgun. Having the weapon manipulation skill that enables you to prevail in a gunfight is certainly an important part of training for concealed carry....but there's a whole lot that happens before you're pulling the trigger on a two way range and a whole lot that happens after the shots have stopped that folks ought to prepare themselves for.
Concealed carry is its own specialty and generally speaking it's extremely beneficial for people to seek out training from those who have some expertise in that arena based on research and experience in addition to the excellent gunfighting/weapon skill courses taught by some of the recognizable names in the industry.
I was generalizing since most of the time on M4C people are discussing and showing photos of classes taught by LAV, Hack, Magpul, etc. and the typical gear is battle belts, chest rigs and definitely not geared towards concealed carry for the average Joe.
That's more a reflection of the students than anything else. Folks are perfectly welcome to shoot an LAV course entirely from concealment...I shot day 1 of the most recent AK course I attended with Larry from concealment with rifle mags stuck in my pants pockets...but shooting from concealment (especially in a carbine course) is a hassle. In carbine courses it's generally just a lot easier to have a war belt/chest rig (can't stand chest rigs, personally) to deal with the rifle mags, the pistol, the multi-tool, etc. It's also worth noting the weather. When it's cold out or say 108 degrees, it gets more complicated and uncomfortable to run concealment.
If everybody showed up running concealed, that would be a larger part of the instruction.
And how did you come to that conclusion? Actually I took classes from the three people mentioned in this thread: Tom Givens, Jeff Gonzalez - back then his class was called Combative Pistol, and Louis Awerbuck among others.
That is what I base my recommendation on.
Andy T, since it is obvious you have not taken a pistol class from Jeff,
Mike
ColdDeadHands
07-08-10, 07:26
Thanks for all the advice so far - I will check out the Instructors mentioned. Let's stay on topic please, people in the know understand the benefits of taking a CC class. If I was a leo I'd go a different route but CC is more important to me right now - sorry mikeyd501.
btw; being new and a smart ass doesn't work to well in this forum.
Thanks for all the advice so far - I will check out the Instructors mentioned. Let's stay on topic please, people in the know understand the benefits of taking a CC class. If I was a leo I'd go a different route but CC is more important to me right now - sorry mikeyd501.
btw; being new and a smart ass doesn't work to well in this forum.
No need to be sorry. Like I said before, good luck in your quest. New, not hardly, smart ass? What's with the personal attack? All I did was give you good advice. This is how you say thanks?
Mike
ColdDeadHands
07-08-10, 07:46
No need to be sorry. Like I said before, good luck in your quest. New, not hardly, smart ass? What's with the personal attack? All I did was give you good advice. This is how you say thanks?
Mike
I asked for advice on a good Class geared toward Concealed Carry and you tell me to go to a high speed low drag combat handgun class. If I wanted to do that I would have said so.
I asked for advice on a good Class geared toward Concealed Carry and you tell me to go to a high speed low drag combat handgun class. If I wanted to do that I would have said so.
Once again, good luck in your quest. May you live long and have many children and grandchildren. I don't know what else to tell you.
M
John_Wayne777
07-08-10, 08:55
I asked for advice on a good Class geared toward Concealed Carry and you tell me to go to a high speed low drag combat handgun class. If I wanted to do that I would have said so.
I want to be sure we aren't getting spun around the axle on this...
There are a number of different dimensions to using a handgun and to concealed carry. There is the weapon skills part which deals with making hits under stress, TTP's that work under stress (gunfights are pretty stressful), and key aspects of mindset and training that allow you to actually draw the gun and make the hit when the time comes for that. I will say without a second's hesitation that someone interested in concealed carry for personal defense should attend this type of course.
There are other dimensions to consider as well. Part of concealed carry is learning to pay attention to your surroundings, AKA situational awareness. Learning how bad guys prey on others and how to recognize a potential threat before it goes lethal on you so that you can avoid it or at least be ahead of the curve is crucial for concealed carry. There are instructors who dedicate entire courses or blocks of instructions to learning how bad guys think, how bad guys act, and how to avoid getting to the point where you have to use those pistol skills Larry Vickers taught you to shoot them in the face. SouthNarc, for example, has a block of instruction on managing unknown contacts that is good for this sort of stuff. Tom Givens gives a lecture that includes video of real life shooting incidents to communicate this kind of information. In Virginia there's an instructor named John Murphy (posts on this forum) that has a 4 hour block of instruction dealing with learning to recognize bad guys and how to spot an attack that is in progress before it gets to the point where a gun is being waved in your face.
I think that someone interested in concealed carry should also attend this type of course.
Then there's the concealed carry mindset...the kind of attitude about the world around you and how you should conduct yourself when you're packing a firearm. It's not really as simple as just untucking the shirt. Proper concealment and the importance of carry gear needs to be considered, as does mode of dress, realistic assessment of the type of firearm you want to carry, etc. This is one of the outstanding features of Dave's course, as he covers this kind of stuff pretty thoroughly as well as putting on a solid skills course. Someone interested in concealed carry should also attend this type of course.
Last but not least, there is dealing with the aftermath of using force. If you use force on someone...any level of force on anyone...on the streets of the USA, you can bet your sweet bippy that you are going to have to answer for it, and you may be surprised by what the laws and relevant jurisprudence on self defense and use of force in your area actually say. As an example of what I mean, look up "mutual combat" sometime and examine how courts have interpreted actions and statements before a gunfight/shooting and the impact that had on their determination of justification. It can be enlightening. Some courses teach this sort of thing, many do not. If there are useful courses on laws governing the use of force available, people should avail themselves of them without hesitation.
Some courses touch on multiple aspects mentioned here...some of them focus exclusively on one area. It's up to the student to have a good outline of what he/she needs and then to pursue the training that addresses the deficiencies/needs they have identified.
It's unfortunately not as simple as a "high speed" pistol course vs. a concealed carry course. Concealed carry is my primary thing and yet I've been through some of the "high speed" pistol courses and I've learned a TON of good information from them. I've also been through a number of other types of courses where I learned valuable lessons as well. If, for example, I attend a course that has fantastic lessons on mindset and dealing with bad guys, but the shooting instruction isn't as good as I got from Mr. Vickers, that's still a win for me. I can take the useful bits of the course and combine it with the superb instruction on gunfighting from Mr. Vickers. Etc.
Yea I guess being short and to the point sometimes comes off as combative.
Maybe you don't know the difference between a class geared towards concealed carry and a standard pistol or pistol/carbine class.
Sure, you can shoot a standard class from concealment and get a bunch of good practice in that way. Or you could just shoot a regular class with regular gear and learn about shooting.
A concealed carry class is different because the focus isn't just on shooting. Concealed carry means there should be discussions on legalities and liabilities. There has to be discussions on gear (holsters, BUGs, lights and lasers) that won't necessarily be covered in a regular class. I can't remember the last class I took where we talked gear, outside of a CCW class. It's a huge part of CCW though, so it must be addressed.
The type of shooting at a CCW class will likely be different. Of course, it'll all be from the draw and from concealment. You can do that part at a regular class, but as JW_777 pointed out, regular classes aren't necessarily conducive to this. The drill types and scenarios are more geared towards concealed carry, kinda like IDPA but without the gaming.
As JW_777 pointed out above, a good instructor will note if an individual or a group in a class is shooting from concealment and can change up some of the stuff he's doing to gear the class towards that, but if you're one guy in a class of 15 you can't count on that.
Maybe you didn't know that.
OP, I wish I could tell you more about who offers classes for this, but most of the stuff I see in this regard are local classes offered towards shooters who are at the very noobish end of the scale. It seems to me most guys would rather teach the sexy stuff involving long guns and wailing away on targets at 7 yards. CCW isn't sexy.
ETA: JW_777's post above mine is a far more thorough detailing of what is involved at a CCW oriented class outside of the simple mechanics of drawing and shooting. And if I keep pointing out his great posts, I'm going to get accused of being on his nuts or something.
John_Wayne777
07-08-10, 09:08
Folks, let's all take a nice deep breath and consider the consequences of what we're posting. If we keep this on track, this thread could be a very valuable discussion.
TacticalIntervention
07-08-10, 09:47
Most all training is good. All of the instructors listed have excellent reputations and obviously students often feel the need to defend what they have learned. Nothing wrong with that.
Also as usual most who carry weapons to live dont write as clearly as they wish they could. Me included, and often misunderstood. Bottm line is all gun owners want other owners to be trained and safe.
Concealed or Dynamic Entry Pistol is the same once its out for hitting but tactics, equipment, modes of carry and drawing between them are very different. Classes should be structured differently.
Texas is full of good instructors. Once you have taken a class please post your findings so others can use the source.
Last but not least, there is dealing with the aftermath of using force. If you use force on someone...any level of force on anyone...on the streets of the USA, you can bet your sweet bippy that you are going to have to answer for it, and you may be surprised by what the laws and relevant jurisprudence on self defense and use of force in your area actually say. As an example of what I mean, look up "mutual combat" sometime and examine how courts have interpreted actions and statements before a gunfight/shooting and the impact that had on their determination of justification. It can be enlightening. Some courses teach this sort of thing, many do not. If there are useful courses on laws governing the use of force available, people should avail themselves of them without hesitation.
As far as the legal aspects go you might want to look up ITTS. Check out their website and look through their handgun curriculum. I took the handgun I and the first day was 7 hours of classroom dedicated to what JW_777 had mentioned but their resume and knowledge of the legal aspects is extra impressive (22 year LAPD with time in Metro and SWAT. Also serves as an expert witness in deadly force cases).
I learned a lot and I hope everyone that is a civilian makes an effort to at least educate themselves on the legal aspects with a subject matter expert.
As far as the legal aspects go you might want to look up ITTS.
I have no experience with ITTS/Scott Reitz as an instructor but he has an excellent reputation as an expert witness (and I have a lot of experience in evaluating those), so it's a good bet that he knows his shit. Some very well-known and respected instructors speak highly of him in that regard as well.
He doesn't seem to come to the East coast much, which is too bad. I'd be interested in seeing his instruction on judicious use of force and related issues.
Folks, let's all take a nice deep breath and consider the consequences of what we're posting. If we keep this on track, this thread could be a very valuable discussion.
Gents, follow JW's advice please. This can be a very valuable discussion for a great many people, don't screw it up with internet egos.
John Hearne
07-10-10, 22:22
While I'm probably biased, it's hard to beat Tom Givens for the private citizen carrying a concealed pistol for self-defense. Rangemaster now has more than 55 students who have successfully engaged in self-defense shootings. With the exception of Scotty Reitz, whose involved students have mostly been police, there aren't many stateside schools with that kind of track record. There are other great instructors that teach more of a general combative pistol course, Tom's classes are very specifically oriented towards the armed private citizen. www.rangemaster.com
(Full Disclosure: I've worked for/with Tom since 2001)
I recently attended a course with my fiance, who is not HSLD by the way, and it was perfect for our needs as civilian CCWs.
The foundation of the course is mindset. There is discussion and lecture about everything from the why and the how to the aftermath and legal fight.
It is not ego driven. It is about making each of us better prepared and that necessarily includes all aspects including the techniques of fighting (not just shooting).
The course is here:
http://www.tacticalresponse.com/course.php?courseID=5
Interestingly, courses that teach from this perspective are apparently rare.
As far as whether to take the course using your every day CCW method. Saying you are going to, or quoting "Train as you fight(or carry)" is all well and good, but your true mindset is revealed when you are out there on the range.
Don Robison
07-11-10, 09:16
Take a look at Suarez International's Defensive Pistol Skills class. We are offering it in Orange TX a couple of more times this year(Sep and Nov). The class follows the crawl, walk, run method and starts with the fundamentals of marksmanship on day 1 and progresses through concealed carry on day two. Jon Payne the instructor is a good guy and recently quit law enforcement in TX to teach full time.
http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/defensivepistolskills.aspx
I'll throw in a vote for Randy Cain of Cumberland Tactics. He's a bit of a protege of Awerbuck so those that recommended Louis would probably recognize a lot of what they see if they took a Cain course.
I am of the opinion, having trained with all three, that a fantastic sequence for a new(er) handgun shooter in a non-military environment would be Cain for the fundamentals, Awerbuck for the application of the fundamentals, and Bill Jeans for the mindset. None of these courses will go over 800 rounds in three days, but you will learn something with each and every round fired. They all have a Gunsite pedigree or background, which will sour many on them, but all three have also done what Gunsite as an establishment has failed to do, and that's innovate and evolve.
In terms of CCW-specific, legal aspects, etc. I would suggest seeking out someone based in your own state as they are more likely to be familiar with local current law, and current case law, than a traveling trainer.
ETA:
Whenever you are considering attending instruction from ANY trainer or school, make use of Google beforehand and learn everything you can about the instructor and/or the person he works for. Some instructors are highly controversial and invite drama wherever they go (both in the real world and on the internut). Given the huge number of instructors out there I see no reason to involve oneself with these types of people.
1911sforever
07-13-10, 14:41
I've been teaching CCW courses in VA for six years with not quite 200students through my program. No student involved shootings, thank God, but more than a few have let me know that what I passed on to them helped them see and avoid things before things turn ugly.
I designed my course with a few assumptions:
1. Most of my students are NOT "gun people" and will only take ONE course. That means I have to lay a common foundation of safety and gun handling skills, and that what I teach them has to stick.
2. These people will arrive with a variety of notions about guns, gear and the law courtesy of Hollywood, the media and gun store commandos.
3. That giving students situational awareness, avoidance and verbal judo skills would be more useful than turning them into precision shooters.
4. That they're are serious about learning how to take care of themselves since they could get "trained" by taking an online course or sitting in a classroom for four hours and not even firing a shot. Between tuition, ammo travel, lodging, food, etc. I suspect my students drop about $700. That can easily double a person's expense for CCW.
5. CCW skills must be relevant and presented in the CONTEXT of a civilian citizen engaging in armed self defense. Close range shooting, movement, interaction with unknown people, verbalization, pre-incident tactics, post incident actions (including dealing with LE). The whole package has to be strung together in such a way that the student can gain understanding and maintain skills with minimum sustainment training.
The course begins with a "view ahead/read ahead" email I send upon registration. (Yes, I use the famous "Don't talk to the cops" video. I amplify and extend on that video later.) The course runs over two days. The first four hours are in the classroom, death by Powerpoint! After introductions and admin announcements, the students get:
The Four Rules
The Realities of Handgun Ballistics (No, people don't blow up when they're shot with pistols.)
Guns and Gear (How to Avoid the Box O' Holsters)
Living with the Beast in Your Holster (How do I use a public restroom? What do I do with the gun when I'm at home, etc.)
Criminal TTP (The Two Kinds of Violence)
Situational Awareness and Decision Making
Mindset
CCW Strategy and Tactics (Don't go where the lions are! Have a plan! Create a gap!)
Legal Considerations of the Use of Deadly Force
Each of these topics are reinforced with appropriate video clips or vignettes about regular citizens defending themselves or others. Some are funny, some aren't. All drive home the purpose of why citizens arm themselves and the CONTEXT of how these things happened. Students leave with Murphy's Four Assumptions and head to the range for the second half of TD 1.
The range starts with safety rules, gearing up, range commands, gun handling (load, unload, reload), malfunctions, dry firing, basic marksmanship, the draw stroke, more dry firing, and ends with live fire drills from the holster. The drills are very basic...five shot groups from 3, 5, 7. One shot draws, controlled pairs, double taps as a recoil control/trigger manipulation step to what I call the "Wilson Drill", in honor of Mr. Mark Wilson of Tyler, TX. (Others call it the non-standard response.) This can make the day long because some of these people are very new to guns. In order to challenge the more experienced shooters I press them to shoot faster/more accurately.
TD 2 starts with a review of TD-1, and then moves into drawing from concealment. (And an admonishment not to have dangly things hanging from your clothing.) We also discuss and practice "unholstering", methods of surrepitiously getting a gun in the hand without presentation to the threat. Dry fire from concealment, then essentially a repeat of the static firing drills from TD-1. Not surprisingly, people go too fast at the outset and accuracy suffers. Skill being the spawn of supervised repetition, people catch on soon enough. Then I incorporate scenarios requiring verbal interaction...most people feel silly talking to targets but I get them past that soon enough. Lateral movement, shooting while advancing/withdrawing, multiple targets, multiple targets advancing/withdrawing, post incident scanning, interaction with LE, negative targetry, the charging target. (I download students to one round for that drill. I have learned that when the going gets tough, the tough tend to go cyclic. The main goal is to get people to move off the line of attack and make the first shot count.) Last year I began incorporating an AK pickup drill in the class. I saw this as a good use of training time since when the Jihad or mass shooters come they tend to carry that type of rifle. Load, reload and shoot....and dump the thing the second it looks like law enforcement is arriving. The class concludes with every student getting run through at least two different live fire scenarios.
Students fire 600 rounds in the two days. They leave my class with an understanding of how the bad guys operate, what they can do with the weapons and gear they have purchased, and what the consequences of that circumstance can entail. Students that took my class as recently as last spring would see substantial changes in my program of instruction...somethings removed, others added, emphasis on other shifted.
It is far and away the most gratifying work I've ever done, and I am constantly looking for ways to improve. I never forget what it is that people are entrusting me with. Never.
ColdDeadHands
07-13-10, 14:52
Take a look at Suarez International's Defensive Pistol Skills class. We are offering it in Orange TX a couple of more times this year(Sep and Nov). The class follows the crawl, walk, run method and starts with the fundamentals of marksmanship on day 1 and progresses through concealed carry on day two. Jon Payne the instructor is a good guy and recently quit law enforcement in TX to teach full time.
http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/defensivepistolskills.aspx
Thanks, I might sign up for the Nov. or Dec. class.
ColdDeadHands
07-13-10, 14:56
I'll throw in a vote for Randy Cain of Cumberland Tactics. He's a bit of a protege of Awerbuck so those that recommended Louis would probably recognize a lot of what they see if they took a Cain course.
I am of the opinion, having trained with all three, that a fantastic sequence for a new(er) handgun shooter in a non-military environment would be Cain for the fundamentals, Awerbuck for the application of the fundamentals, and Bill Jeans for the mindset. None of these courses will go over 800 rounds in three days, but you will learn something with each and every round fired. They all have a Gunsite pedigree or background, which will sour many on them, but all three have also done what Gunsite as an establishment has failed to do, and that's innovate and evolve.
In terms of CCW-specific, legal aspects, etc. I would suggest seeking out someone based in your own state as they are more likely to be familiar with local current law, and current case law, than a traveling trainer.
ETA:
Whenever you are considering attending instruction from ANY trainer or school, make use of Google beforehand and learn everything you can about the instructor and/or the person he works for. Some instructors are highly controversial and invite drama wherever they go (both in the real world and on the internut). Given the huge number of instructors out there I see no reason to involve oneself with these types of people.
Thanks, that's some good advice!
Take a look at Suarez International's Defensive Pistol Skills class. We are offering it in Orange TX a couple of more times this year(Sep and Nov). The class follows the crawl, walk, run method and starts with the fundamentals of marksmanship on day 1 and progresses through concealed carry on day two. Jon Payne the instructor is a good guy and recently quit law enforcement in TX to teach full time.
http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/defensivepistolskills.aspx
I have heard some negative things about Gabe over the years. Mostly about his character. If even half the stuff is true, well lets just say if he was the best trainer on the planet, I could not give him one dollar of my money.
I don't know anything about Jon.
Mike
Don Robison
07-13-10, 23:16
I have heard some negative things about Gabe over the years. Mostly about his character. If even half the stuff is true, well lets just say if he was the best trainer on the planet, I could not give him one dollar of my money.
I don't know anything about Jon.
Mike
My suggestion is to ask Gabe about it; he's pretty open.
If half of what has been said about him were true he'd be exiled to Mars.
I don't want to further hijack the thread, so how about we keep it on topic or feel free to start another thread listing all the reasons you wouldn't train with SI..........................that should be fun.:D
Skipper1969
07-13-10, 23:43
Thanks, I might sign up for the Nov. or Dec. class.
ColdDeadHands, I am Jon Payne. Just let me know how I can assist you and I will do my best to help. Send me an email or a PM if you need any contact information.
Skipper1969
07-13-10, 23:49
I have heard some negative things about Gabe over the years. Mostly about his character. If even half the stuff is true, well lets just say if he was the best trainer on the planet, I could not give him one dollar of my money.
I don't know anything about Jon.
Mike
Mike, I'm an open book. I don't get involved in Gun School Drama, I have too much work to do. You're welcome to attend any training I put on.
Jon Payne
Suarez International Staff Instructor
Mike, I'm an open book. I don't get involved in Gun School Drama, I have too much work to do. You're welcome to attend any training I put on.
Jon Payne
Suarez International Staff Instructor
Thanks Jon, but I will pass on that offer.
Mike
My suggestion is to ask Gabe about it; he's pretty open.
If half of what has been said about him were true he'd be exiled to Mars.
I don't want to further hijack the thread, so how about we keep it on topic or feel free to start another thread listing all the reasons you wouldn't train with SI..........................that should be fun.:D
Just one reason. He plead guilty to fraud charges and did time. All true/public record. The people I choose to give my money to don't have that problem.
Mike
Skipper1969
07-14-10, 13:59
Just one reason. He plead guilty to fraud charges and did time. All true/public record. The people I choose to give my money to don't have that problem.
Mike
Seems most people disagree with you. We never have a problem filling Gabe's classes in Texas, in fact there is always a waiting list after the classes are sold out.
Jon Payne
Suarez International Staff Instructor
www.suarezinternational.com
www.warriortalk.com
Mike, I'm an open book. I don't get involved in Gun School Drama, I have too much work to do.
Your above statement would seem to contradict your last post.
I don't think Gabe needs your money... Seems most people disagree with you. We never have a problem filling Gabe's classes in Texas, in fact there is always a waiting list after the classes are sold out.
Let's get back on topic of a good thread and leave the Suarez drama out of it.
Skipper1969
07-14-10, 14:35
Your above statement would seem to contradict your last post.
Let's get back on topic of a good thread and leave the Suarez drama out of it.
There is no Suarez drama here. Just posting facts. Have I mentioned any of those other schools or bad mouthed them? I think not. The OP asked a question and one of the suggestions was to train with me. I work for Suarez International/Gabe Suarez. I disagree with what Mike posted and I posted a reply.
Skipper1969
07-14-10, 14:51
For someone new to concealed carry or someone who doesn't have a CHL yet I would recommend the four hour Introduction to Defensive Pistol course. This course would give the prospective student a firm grasp of marksmanship fundamentals and proper weapon manipulation. If student has already been through the Texas CHL class and has been shooting for a while I would recommend either Defensive Pistol Skills or Close Range Gunfighting depending on their comfort level and experience. There are also several DVD's that can be used for home study such as Combat Pistol Marksmanship, Close Range Gunfighting, and Advanced Close Range Gunfighting.
Jon Payne
Suarez International Staff Instructor
www.saurezinternational.com
www.warriortalk.com
NCPatrolAR
07-15-10, 15:12
Let's keep the talk about class specific details and leave the backstory (backstories) out of it. If someone wants to know the drama of a certain instructor; do so through a Google search or through PMs.
I am another guy who will highly suggest the Dave Pennington CCW class. It is truly an outstanding class. Dave is without question a true expert on CCW. He will teach you all of the various methods to discretely CCW, how to shoot from concealment, and all of the products available to help make this happen. I cannot recommend this class enough to do it justice.
The other class I highly suggest is the SouthNarc Extreme Close Quarter Concepts (ECQC). This is a combative handgun course focusing on dealing with situations/threats from zero to five feet. It instills situational awareness and aggressive problem solving in relation to threats a CCW holder might find themselves involved in.
In my opinion both of these classes are a “Must Attend” for anybody who carries a weapon concealed.
john farnam's defensive handgun is a good course.
The other class I highly suggest is the SouthNarc Extreme Close Quarter Concepts (ECQC). This is a combative handgun course focusing on dealing with situations/threats from zero to five feet. It instills situational awareness and aggressive problem solving in relation to threats a CCW holder might find themselves involved in.
Agreed that ECQC is one of the most eye opening training experiences available for CCW. Another reason to attend is that SouthNarc is introducing a new class for 2011 that has prior ECQC attendance as a mandatory prerequisite.
Vehicle Combatives and Shooting Tactics (VCAST)
The ShivWorks Vehicle Combatives and Shooting Tactics (VCAST) course is a twenty-four hour block of instruction focused on developing combative functionality with firearms and empty hand skills in and around vehicles. The coursework is contextually underscored for the problems an armed citizen might possibly face from criminal activity. VCAST is a high liability course due to the nature of the developmental drills and evolutions. Students will be using their own vehicles for several of the live fire drills. Prior attendance of Extreme Close Quarter Concepts (ECQC) is mandatory, NO EXCEPTIONS.
Topics covered include:
Day One (4 hours):
•Positional Dominance and parking tactics
•Surveillance Detection
•Managing encroachment and movement tactics
•Task Fixation problems on embuss
•Hostile debuss problems (parallel and perpendicular)
Day Two (12 hours)
•Engaging exterior targets front, sides, and rear live fire
•Engaging interior targets live fire
•Utilizing the vehicle as cover and positional shooting dynamics
•Debuss under fire
•Managing passengers and children
•In traffic positional tactics
•Minimizing target profile while driving through ambush
•Pushing through other vehicles
•Optimal in vehicle movement (modified Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu)
•Managing collisions and the Airbag Ambush
•Oncoming traffic concerns
•Live fire vehicle penetration demo
Day Three (8 hours)
•Student versus student developmental evolutions
Agreed that ECQC is one of the most eye opening training experiences available for CCW. Another reason to attend is that SouthNarc is introducing a new class for 2011 that has prior ECQC attendance as a mandatory prerequisite.
Vehicle Combatives and Shooting Tactics (VCAST)
The ShivWorks Vehicle Combatives and Shooting Tactics (VCAST) course is a twenty-four hour block of instruction focused on developing combative functionality with firearms and empty hand skills in and around vehicles. The coursework is contextually underscored for the problems an armed citizen might possibly face from criminal activity. VCAST is a high liability course due to the nature of the developmental drills and evolutions. Students will be using their own vehicles for several of the live fire drills. Prior attendance of Extreme Close Quarter Concepts (ECQC) is mandatory, NO EXCEPTIONS.
Topics covered include:
Day One (4 hours):
•Positional Dominance and parking tactics
•Surveillance Detection
•Managing encroachment and movement tactics
•Task Fixation problems on embuss
•Hostile debuss problems (parallel and perpendicular)
Day Two (12 hours)
•Engaging exterior targets front, sides, and rear live fire
•Engaging interior targets live fire
•Utilizing the vehicle as cover and positional shooting dynamics
•Debuss under fire
•Managing passengers and children
•In traffic positional tactics
•Minimizing target profile while driving through ambush
•Pushing through other vehicles
•Optimal in vehicle movement (modified Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu)
•Managing collisions and the Airbag Ambush
•Oncoming traffic concerns
•Live fire vehicle penetration demo
Day Three (8 hours)
•Student versus student developmental evolutions
All I can say is wow.
Rest assured Grey Group Training will be scheduling at least one for 2011, along with another Extreme Close Quarter Concepts (ECQC).
SouthNarc is the real deal.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.