View Full Version : Daniel Defense barrels without barrel nuts?
OK, maybe I am just not knowledgeable enough, but why does Daniel Defense make barrels with pinned FSBs and no barrel nut? I can not figure a way that such a barrel may be installed without removing the FSB to install a nut (be it a “standard” nut or some proprietary nut for a rail). Why did they not, as a matter of course, just put a nut on that could be removed if you wanted to replace it with another, as you were going to have to remove the FSB anyway to put a proprietary nut on?
I don’t see an advantage for DD as the Omega rail requires both a standard delta ring and nut, and the Omega X requires a proprietary nut to be in place.
An example of what I am referring to is at Bravo’s website:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Daniel-Defense-16-Lightweight-Carbine-Gas-Barre-p/dd%2010190.htm
Since a barrel nut costs no more than $10, why did they leave it off?
spamsammich
07-03-10, 18:02
Is this a complaint? This is probably really myopic of me but I don't see a problem with a manufacturer putting out a product that offers the most flexibility without waste for a decent price.
I get what the OP is saying, but I think that most manufacturers assume that someone purchasing a stripped/partially stripped barrel is building a custom rifle and has the tools and knowledge to do so.
I have neither, so I just spend the extra $100 to have a push pin upper.
Spam: I do not disagree with you. I guess I am stating that installation of the barrel would have a greater degree of flexibility if the nut were attached.
This is just a function of my trying to put together my Massachusetts-legal "demonstration" carbine and costing everything out, including time spent. By omitting this part, DD has made the construction project more expensive due to the cost of the barrel nut (and delta ring/spring) and the time taken to remove and reinstall the FSB.
My only other options in this price range are to install a Doublestar barrel, which will require a front sight post, detent, and spring, or, when you take the cost of the BCG and charging handle into account, just buy a Bravo Company upper with BCG and handle for $520.
What's a hobbyist to do? Bravo, you have undercut me again. :D
Why can't you remove the FSB, install the barrel nut, then install the FSB again...?
DD does sell complete barrels. Some searching might turn up what you're looking for.
http://www.pkfirearms.com/content/1/20/121/162
Why can't you remove the FSB, install the barrel nut, then install the FSB again...?
I understand -- I can do that. My question is: Why create a bbl setup where removal of the FSB is necessary in every case?
It's just idle speculation at this point. When you factor in the cost savings on the BCG and handle, the shipping costs, etc., the BCM is the way to go. If you add in the labor, there's just no comparison.
If you look at the prices at PK (thanks Dunder), the situation is even worse; depending on how you cost it, the out of pocket cost exceeds the BCM cost by about $100.
I've done the "I want it that way and I'll pay for it" course before. What I am working on is a recipe for "AW ban" victims to follow to get a pretty cool rifle for a predictable price, even if some assembly is required. My biggest problem is going to be the "flash suppressor" headache; this could easily add $100 to $150 to the cost if done right. (No muzzle device is not acceptable.)
Im confused about what you are complaining about. Like someone said you can buy the complete assembly, (FSB, gas tube, barrel nut and delta ring) and not have to remove the FSB. Going by bravo company prices the barrel you posted is $286, and the complete one is $322 which when you figure in the parts and labor is a better deal.
ZuluDeltaBravo
07-03-10, 22:42
OK, maybe I am just not knowledgeable enough, but why does Daniel Defense make barrels with pinned FSBs and no barrel nut? I can not figure a way that such a barrel may be installed without removing the FSB to install a nut (be it a “standard” nut or some proprietary nut for a rail). Why did they not, as a matter of course, just put a nut on that could be removed if you wanted to replace it with another, as you were going to have to remove the FSB anyway to put a proprietary nut on?
I don’t see an advantage for DD as the Omega rail requires both a standard delta ring and nut, and the Omega X requires a proprietary nut to be in place.
An example of what I am referring to is at Bravo’s website:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Daniel-Defense-16-Lightweight-Carbine-Gas-Barre-p/dd%2010190.htm
Since a barrel nut costs no more than $10, why did they leave it off?
I figure it's so you can put whatever rail/handguard/widget/doodad you want on it. The pins on mine that I ordered from Grant came tapped half way in; I was able to push them out with a nail.
we need a smiley with an eyebrow raised in skepticism.
how are you going to install the gas tube with the FSB pinned? not gonna happen on a carbine. you might get away with it on a middy, but it's still not the proper way, and you're likely to bend it.
ETA- furthermore, i've never seen a barrel assembly come with the FSB fully pinned
Thanks for the responses. What started out as a small gripe about DD barrels is really not the problem I am trying to solve. I have tried to explain this in other posts, and have always gotten the feeling that people do not understand what I am trying to do. The problem is not technical; it is legal and economic. Let me start again.
I live in a ban state. I teach various safety classes in my “off time” every week. Out of the 20-30 persons in the classes, about four to six want to buy an AR. When I explain what it takes to get a “preban” AR, most balk due to the cost, which is upwards on $2000 due to the purchase of a preban lower (often a complete Colt H-Bar) and the purchase of an upper, rear sight, and BCG to go with it. Even so, post-ban compliant ARs cost about $950 + with BS pinned stocks and no muzzle device, or, a really cheap permanently attached one.
What I want to do is put together a product that will be superior to the “post-ban” offerings at a cheaper price.
Anyone in a free state can put together a carbine for about $700-750 without breaking a sweat. My problem is that post-ban barrels cost more, and, barrels with threads must have a muzzle device permanently attached. Until I can figure out a better way, such device and attachment will cost about $75-$150, depending on the device. Just now I am looking at some of the better brakes, including the Troy and some PWS models.
Licensing and other issues are in the future. I am trying to create a prototype. Even in prototype stage, I will consider this project a failure if I can not do it for $850.
Then you must realize that griping about it hear won't solve your problem.
What will solve your problem is to put together a plan and present it to DD or other manufacturer to convince them there is a niche market not being exploited. You may even get them to sponsor your project.
Tell them you feel if they would offer parts that would allow those in the Occupied Territories East to build a Hearth & Home carbine for under $900 that they would sell.
Have you called DD to see if they can offer the barrel in the configuration you want? If they do and don't catalog it, it might be something you could take advantage of.
As for myself, it's no big deal to drift the pins on the FSB. Annoying, but no biggie. Maybe what you want is to see if you can get the barrel with the FSB and pins not installed
Amicus,
The flip side of the coin is this. Why should I have to pay for a barrel nut when I'm going to remove it and use a FF rail? Why not let me have the cheaper option?
Omaha-BeenGlockin
07-04-10, 13:14
I don't think the FSB is actually "installed"--just loosely put together with the pin holes already drilled.
Thanks for the responses. What started out as a small gripe about DD barrels is really not the problem I am trying to solve. I have tried to explain this in other posts, and have always gotten the feeling that people do not understand what I am trying to do. The problem is not technical; it is legal and economic. Let me start again.
What I want to do is put together a product that will be superior to the “post-ban” offerings at a cheaper price.
Anyone in a free state can put together a carbine for about $700-750 without breaking a sweat. My problem is that post-ban barrels cost more, and, barrels with threads must have a muzzle device permanently attached.
Licensing and other issues are in the future. I am trying to create a prototype. Even in prototype stage, I will consider this project a failure if I can not do it for $850.
Amicus,
I understand what you are saying but tend to disagree with your statement about cost. I regularly put together complete carbines for friends. Without going the untra el cheapo route I generally spend between $900.00-$1000.00 on them. I do not have an FFL and order lowers for about $110.00-$130.00. They do the transfer ($15.00 here).
I have a few internet sites that give me a discount, either .mil or LEO. After buying or building a complete upper, bolt and carrier, charging handle, MBUIS rear sight, and complete MOE package for $99.00 that's as low as I can get. LMT seems to be the cheapest route for uppers as I can only save about $20.00 building it. What I tell them is they are getting a much better quality rifle than the same dollars spent on a RRA, Bushmaster, or Armalite, to say nothing of the Model 1, Olympic, or DPMS carbine. The last one was $955.00 and included a Noveske lower, LMT complete upper, DD bolt and carrier, MBUIS, MOE kit, G&R LPK, BCM charging handle, 2 PMAGS, and a Specter sling. Sometimes I can shave a few dollars. That price included the transfer, shipping, any taxes, and a 6 pack of Amberbock!
MadcapMagician
07-04-10, 21:58
Daniel Defense sells each barrel as three separate options:
Stripped
With FSB but no delta ring, barrel nut or gas tube
With FSB, Gas tube and barrel nut/delta ring assembly
Example from DD Price Sheet: 16" 5.56mm Carbine Hammer Forged
DD-9067 BARREL ASSY, CMV, CHF, 5.56, 1:7, 16, M4, CAR, CHROME, PHOS
DD-10114 BARREL ASSY, CMV, CHF, 5.56, 1:7, 16, M4, CAR, CHROME, PHOS W/FSP
DD-10104 BARREL ASSY, CMV, CHF, 5.56, 1:7, 16, M4, CAR, CHROME, PHOS W/FSP, GAS TUBE, DELTA RING ASSY
we need a smiley with an eyebrow raised in skepticism.
how are you going to install the gas tube with the FSB pinned? not gonna happen on a carbine. you might get away with it on a middy, but it's still not the proper way, and you're likely to bend it.
ETA- furthermore, i've never seen a barrel assembly come with the FSB fully pinned
I have installed a gas tube on a carbine length barrel without removing the FSB. I see no reason why you couldn't.
Dustin
I don't think the FSB is actually "installed"--just loosely put together with the pin holes already drilled.
This is true. You can remove them with your hand.
Dustin
Folks:
I just wanted to say "thanks" for all the responses. I'll try to address a few personally.
ZuluDeltaBravo & bkb0000 & Omaha-BeenGlockin: Your explanation about how DD FSBs were closer to "partially assembled" helped me to understand about why DD would do this. Now I get it. (I stated at the beginning that I was not all that knowledgeable.)
seb5: Thanks for giving me some info on the cost of your builds. I will have to remember to charge for beer. Also, anything I will put together must be "bare bones for the time being. BTW, since the People's Republik of Massachusetts has decreed that they may be no "kitchen table dealers" or "cellar dwellers"s, transfer rates are considered low at $30.
perna & Madcap: That was just an example, the cost of which is too high for my build anyway. Basically, the bbl could cost no more than about $230 to make it work.
Stickman & MistWolf: Good points (and I was just griping), but, if I can't complain here, where could I? :D
Anyway, my thanks for taking the time to inform me. I've got a lot of work to do to put this thing together and meet my challenge ($750 to $850 with fairly good, if not diamond-studded parts). The scary thing is, with BCM's price drops on some uppers, I could get just about exactly what I wanted for $629 + shipping and only have the lower to worry about. It's close, but not quite there.
..Stickman & MistWolf: Good points (and I was just griping), but, if I can't complain here, where could I? :D...Heheheh! Point well taken. Let us know how the carbine turns out. Remember, http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/thumb_thisthreadisworthlesswithoutp.gif and a range report
To build the upper using BCM prices and a DD M4 bbl (closeout price) would be:
BCM Build
210 DD M4 16" bbl
13 Carbine gas tube
9 Bbl nut
3 Handguard cap
11 Delta assembly
99 FSC556
23 BCM CH
130 LMT BCG
94 BCM M4-cut Upper
$592 TOTAL
In addition, there would be about $30 to have the FSC556 permanently attached. So true total (without rear sight or handguards) would be about: $622
Price of assembled BCM 14.5" standard bbl midlength or carbine upper with permanently attached FSC556 (and substituting a BCM BCG for a LMT): $629
The only way I can shave money off this thing is to substitute a really cheap bbl (non-chrome lined Model 1, Doublestar, or DPMS). So, it looks like BCM has taken away all my fun by making something just as good or better for $7 more. :eek:
I'm going to start another thread on the lower hassles once I get over the fact that my build will not really be a build at all.
I’ve only been fooling around with ARs for a couple of years now, and my first barrel swap was earlier this year. But, I’ve really got the bug. Also, my screw ups and misunderstandings have been pretty well documented on this site in my various cries for help.
As I was trying to decide whether to put together a BCM midlength or a DD M4 carbine, I suddenly realized that I had already built a similar BCM midlength, complete with FSC556, only it is currently in “pre-ban” condition and sitting on a shelf. Converting it to post-ban status would take about a day and $30, and that’s no fun.
(NOTE: “AW ban” states sorta force you to keep pre-ban with pre-ban, and a post-ban upper on a pre-ban lower is just a waste, so I never thought of this upper as one I would use for the demonstration project.)
I’ve now ordered a DD M4 bbl (BCM closeout for $210) and upper for the next project. Due to my less-than-great financial circumstances, it will take me a couple of months to get all this together. When I do, I’ll post pics in a separate thread and leave a note here.
we need a smiley with an eyebrow raised in skepticism.
how are you going to install the gas tube with the FSB pinned? not gonna happen on a carbine. you might get away with it on a middy, but it's still not the proper way, and you're likely to bend it.
ETA- furthermore, i've never seen a barrel assembly come with the FSB fully pinned
Um, I have installed MANY carbine gas tubes with the FSB's in place!? No damage to any component ever occurred, nor were any tubes bent. Done properly, its very simple, and safe.
Um, I have installed MANY carbine gas tubes with the FSB's in place!? No damage to any component ever occurred, nor were any tubes bent. Done properly, its very simple, and safe.
Agreed. This is the first time I have ever heard someone say there is an issue with this.
I have installed a gas tube on a carbine length barrel without removing the FSB. I see no reason why you couldn't.
Dustin
Um, I have installed MANY carbine gas tubes with the FSB's in place!? No damage to any component ever occurred, nor were any tubes bent. Done properly, its very simple, and safe.
Agreed. This is the first time I have ever heard someone say there is an issue with this.
i guess my memory has failed me
i guess my memory has failed meThat's all right. They tell me the memory is the second thing to go when you grow old
That's all right. They tell me the memory is the second thing to go when you grow old
It’s the second, or is it third, thing to go but I can’t remember what the first or second is. :D
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