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USMC03
06-06-07, 13:51
I have found that over the years I prefer M4's with a 14.5" barrel when using a Aimpoing or Short Dot for SWAT / Duty use and I prefer Mid-Length carbines with the TA11 ACOG for a general purose gun.

I run TA11's on my Mid-Lengths because I have found that the 16" barreled mid-length are perfect as a general purpose carbine at medium to longer distances (just my opinion and for my purposes).

The Mid-Length gas system provides a longer sight radius (not that it matters when using an ACOG) and longer handguard / rail system. The longer handguard is advantageous when not using a vertical foregrip as it gives you more real estate to hold onto, and the longer handguard / more real estate proves it's worth when resting the forearm on barricades (in centain situations I have found that the carbine length hand guard is not long enough to rest on the barricade).

I prefer the TA11 over the TA31 due to the more generous eye relief, I am much quicker with the TA11 than I am with the TA31.

I have also found that I prefer the LMT SOPMOD stocks on M4 carbines and the Magpul M93B on a Mid-Length. (After having tried the new Magpul UBR, once they are released, I'll be putting the URX on my mid-lengths.) There is something to be said for comfort, "feel", and balance.

On another board, someone asked me why I don't use a vertical foregrip on my mid-lengths (w/ ACOGs) any more:


Did you dump your Vertical Fore Grip for the shoot (match) or altogether now Jeff?



Xxxxx,


After much trial and error, I have come to the following conclusion: -Guns that I do a lot of CQB work with I prefer the vertical foregrip. The vertical foregrip helps me "drive" the gun on closer targets, is more ergonomical for accessing a weapon mounted light, gives more power on muzzle strikes and weapon retention, etc.

On guns that I do a lot of *long range shooting* with, I prefer NO vertical foregrip, because I can steady the gun much better on longer shots without the vertical foregrip. The lack of a vertical foregrip also helps me drive and stop the gun better when transitioning from one target to another at longer distances, and has an advantage on barricades, etc. The rifle match has 75%+ of the targets placed from 100 yards - 425 yards.

Something that I noticed when using a vertical foregrip and long range targets....when I would transition from one target to another, I would always pass the target I was transitioning to and have to come back to it (ie. I would "over shoot" or by pass the target).

I don't know why, but on close targets I can drive the gun and stop on a dime at close distances....but at long range targets, I would always pass the target and have to come back to it.

Without a vertical foregrip, I can stop on a dime when transitioning from one target to another at longer distances. Without a vertical foregrip, I wrap my hand round the forend and point my index finger in the same direction as the muzzle (index finger is pointing forward along the 9 o'clock rail) Example: demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/PRM-2006.11/?small=D100_5707_img.jpg

On my guns that have ACOG's, Leupold MR/T M2's, (guns set up for medium to long range shooting) I have removed the vertical foregrips and run just the LaRue handguard and Tango Down pannels.

On my guns with Aimpoints / Short Dots (work guns or guns set up for close to medium range shooting), I still run the vertical foregrips.


Distance = time. Time affords you the ability to get into more stable positions (ie. sitting, prone, braced kneeling, the use of barricades, etc, etc.) In these position a vertical foregrip has no advantage, and can often get in the way. When most of your shots are closer and you are in the standing position or on the move, this is the area where the vertical foregrip shines. I guess it's all about selecting the right tool for the job. Just my opinion based on my personal experiences, as with all things, your milage may vary. [;)]











Stag Arms Coyote Mid-Length:

-Complete Stag Arms (minus the barrel)

-Rock River Arms Chrome Lined Mid-Length barrel custom countoured to .690" under the handguards

-LaRue 9.0 rail system

-Tango Down rail pannels

-Trijicon TA11 ACOG

-LaRue ACOG Mount

-Troy Industries Dual Apeture BUIS

-Tango Down Battle Grip pistol grip

-KNS non-rotating hammer / trigger pin set

-Magpul M93B stock

-Magpul Enhanced Trigger Guard


http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20coyote/DSC02085.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20coyote/DSC02086.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20coyote/DSC02089.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20coyote/DSC02090.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20coyote/DSC02088.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20coyote/DSC02087.jpg



Some pics from a local match from the fall of 2006. Targets from contact distance to 425 yards (all steel).

For more info on the match I'm refering to, check out Zak Smith's article in "Book of the AR-15 (magazine by Guns & Ammo....on sale at news stands now) titled "Armalite's Infantry Rifle" (pg 128 - 135).

In this article Zak talks about the rifle match in this thread:

[from Zak's article] (posted with permission from Zak Smith):

"I am lucky to live in a part of the country with a dedicatedcommunity of practical shooters: USPSA/IPSC, three-gun, and action rifle. In paticular, the monthly Pueblo (West) Rifle Match is run by an experienced law enforcement officer who believes that rifles should be used to their full capability. In other words, it's a har match, with targets from contact distance to 425 yards.

The most common rifle set up for this match is a 16- to 18-inch AR, with a low-power optic such as the Trijicon ACOG, Aimpoint, or Schmidt & Bender Short Dot.

These optics aid target location, acquisition and sight picture, especially for small targets, distant targets and targets that have very low contrast with the background. I was curious to find out how this stock A2 rifle would fare and how much more difficulty I would have with the iron sights compared to a modern optic.................." [/from Zak's article][/b]


http://demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/PRM-2006.11/small/D100_5214_img.jpg

http://demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/PRM-2006.11/small/D100_5403_img.jpg

http://demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/PRM-2006.11/small/D100_5410_img.jpg

http://demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/PRM-2006.11/small/D100_5707_img.jpg

Robb Jensen
06-06-07, 14:11
On another board, someone asked me why I don't use a vertical foregrip on my mid-lengths (w/ ACOGs) any more:

Xxxxx,

After much trial and error, I have come to the following conclusion: -Guns that I do a lot of CQB work with I prefer the vertical foregrip. The vertical foregrip helps me "drive" the gun on closer targets, is more ergonomical for accessing a weapon mounted light, gives more power on muzzle strikes and weapon retention, etc.

On guns that I do a lot of *long range shooting* with, I prefer NO vertical foregrip, because I can steady the gun much better on longer shots without the vertical foregrip. The lack of a vertical foregrip also helps me drive and stop the gun better when transitioning from one target to another at longer distances, and has an advantage on barricades, etc. The rifle match has 75%+ of the targets placed from 100 yards - 425 yards.

Something that I noticed when using a vertical foregrip and long range targets....when I would transition from one target to another, I would always pass the target I was transitioning to and have to come back to it (ie. I would "over shoot" or by pass the target).

I don't know why, but on close targets I can drive the gun and stop on a dime at close distances....but at long range targets, I would always pass the target and have to come back to it.

Without a vertical foregrip, I can stop on a dime when transitioning from one target to another at longer distances. Without a vertical foregrip, I wrap my hand round the forend and point my index finger in the same direction as the muzzle (index finger is pointing forward along the 9 o'clock rail) Example: demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/PRM-2006.11/?small=D100_5707_img.jpg

On my guns that have ACOG's, Leupold MR/T M2's, (guns set up for medium to long range shooting) I have removed the vertical foregrips and run just the LaRue handguard and Tango Down pannels.

On my guns with Aimpoints / Short Dots (work guns or guns set up for close to medium range shooting), I still run the vertical foregrips.


Distance = time. Time affords you the ability to get into more stable positions (ie. sitting, prone, braced kneeling, the use of barricades, etc, etc.) In these position a vertical foregrip has no advantage, and can often get in the way. When most of your shots are closer and you are in the standing position or on the move, this is the area where the vertical foregrip shines. I guess it's all about selecting the right tool for the job. Just my opinion based on my personal experiences, as with all things, your milage may vary. [;)]



I totally agree with you here Jeff. I only run a verticle grip on my 10" LMT gun. This has an Aimpoint on it and I run a suppressor. This is an AR that I wouldn't use for more than 100yds or so. For shooting 50-300yds I prefer to get my left/support hand out as far on the tube/rail as possible and pull it snugly into my shoulder I find this to be very fast and stable. And for longer than 100yds I like a magnified optic like a 1.5-5x or 1-4x variable.

Rmplstlskn
06-11-07, 09:43
+1 on the TA-11-series ACOG for mid range + rifles...

I just moved my TA-11D to my FAL again (now that I have a DSA ACOG mount), but for awhile it was sweet on my 18" Ameetec/Sabre...

Nice mid-length rifles! The details make it a step above most...

Rmpl

Paulinski
06-11-07, 10:26
Very nice build. How do you like that RRA barrel? Is the barrel twist 1/9 or 1/7?

Do you shoot 75 or 77 grain bullets through it?

Paul

USMC03
06-11-07, 13:42
Very nice build. How do you like that RRA barrel? Is the barrel twist 1/9 or 1/7?

Do you shoot 75 or 77 grain bullets through it?

Paul


The barrel is good to go. Chrome lined RRA barrel with 1/9 twist. Everything I shoot through it is 55 grain FMJ (ie: XM193, Black Hills Blue Box, Federal American Eagle, Winchester Q3131, etc)




Semper Fi,
Jeff

Paulinski
06-11-07, 13:45
Thanks for the info.

Paul

USMC03
06-18-07, 00:00
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/group%20pics/coyoteStagmidlengthfoliageStag-Sabr.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/group%20pics/coyoteStagmidlengthfoliageStag-S-1.jpg




Semper Fi,
Jeff

USMC03
01-30-08, 07:42
New pics with the Magpul UBR and MIAD:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20coyote/DSC02365a.jpg?t=1201664126

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20coyote/DSC02366a.jpg?t=1201664146

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20coyote/DSC02368a.jpg?t=1201664171

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20coyote/DSC02367a.jpg?t=1201664193

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20coyote/DSC02369a.jpg?t=1201664219

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20coyote/DSC02370a.jpg?t=1201664240



-Jeff

USMC03
01-31-08, 06:15
Some indoor pics:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20coyote/IMG_0035a.jpg?t=1201781458

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20coyote/IMG_0070a.jpg?t=1201781560

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20coyote/IMG_0071a.jpg?t=1201781578

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20coyote/IMG_0072a.jpg?t=1201781598

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20coyote/IMG_0036a.jpg?t=1201781617

decodeddiesel
01-31-08, 10:23
Wow that is too damn sexy! I love how the UBR looks!

I am going to have to try to get down to Pueblo in the spring time and check out a match. I live in the Parker part of DTC so it's a couple hour drive but it looks to be worth it.

USMC03
02-04-08, 07:28
Wow that is too damn sexy! I love how the UBR looks!

I am going to have to try to get down to Pueblo in the spring time and check out a match. I live in the Parker part of DTC so it's a couple hour drive but it looks to be worth it.


The match is actually in Pueblo West off of exit 108 (north of Pueblo).

We have guys come from as far as Ft. Collins and New Mexico to shoot the match. And half or more of the guys who shoot the match are from the Denver area.

From the southside of Denver it's not quite 2 hours, not much traffic on Sunday mornings ;)



S/F,
Jeff

Devil_Dog
07-15-08, 21:46
Hey Jeff:

We are liked mined on this.

One thing I am trying to sort out, is that what are the pros & cons for installing a LaRue rail on a 16" middy?

I have no intention of adding a TangoDown FVG, but perhaps I might like to add a Surefire X300 with a XT07 switch. Don't need it for FVG, but would for the X300/XT07.

So the only for sure advantage would be that it is free floating. But that begs to ask just how much of a impact (no pun) does that really have on a service weapon.

Anyways if I never need a light, does spending the money really makes sense?

Eric

warpigM-4
07-15-08, 23:34
nice weapon!!!!!:D now I need a cold shower;)

citadelshooter
07-20-08, 19:38
Jeff,
First off, nice stick.

Second, the RRA barrel you are running is a 1:9 Twist if I remember your previous posts (either here or another board, I can't remember). I am currently running the same barrel, just not contoured down. I live in GA and there is not alot of ranges in the area that have 200+ yard ranges to gain accurate ballistic data (other than software). If you would be so kind, if you have any ballistic data for M193 or other ammo through this barrel for distances to 500 yds, could you share it with me? I would greatly appreciate it. You can email me at boan2fish@yahoo.com or PM me on the board either way.

Thanks.
Chad

ar-15 fanatic
07-22-08, 12:21
Very nice rifle! i love the tan furniture.:D

USMC03
09-11-08, 18:51
http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2008.05/smaller/D462_6236_img.jpg

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Stag%20Mid-Length%20Coyote/IMG_0736.jpg



S/F,
Jeff

USMC03
09-14-08, 21:05
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Stag%20Mid-Length%20Coyote/IMG_0738.jpg

SWATcop556
09-15-08, 15:53
Very nice looking rifle. I love the mid-length for an all-purpose rifle.

Two questions for you:

1.) Do you prefer the new Magpul rail covers to the TangoDown? I run the TD and have recently been thinking about switching to the Magpul but haven't had any "hands-on" with them. How do the compare in size, contour, and easy of removing and installing?

2.) Which aiming reticle are you running in the ACOG, which color, and why?

Thanks in advance.

USMC03
09-15-08, 18:29
Very nice looking rifle. I love the mid-length for an all-purpose rifle.

Two questions for you:

1.) Do you prefer the new Magpul rail covers to the TangoDown? I run the TD and have recently been thinking about switching to the Magpul but haven't had any "hands-on" with them. How do the compare in size, contour, and easy of removing and installing?

I prefer the new Magpul XTM covers over the Tango Down rail covers. I had been using the Tango Down rail covers since they first came out (2003?) and loved them.

After trying the new Magpul XTM pannels, I like them more for many reasons:

-Lower profile

-Easy to install and remove (doesn't require the removal of the front sight base when installing on the 12 o'clock rail)

-More modular

-Easier to fit around vertical fore grips, lights, etc.

-You can mix and match colors

-Feel better in the hand (to me)

-Tango Down pannels only come in one size (same length as 7.0 rail), so if you are putting them on a 9.0, 10.0, 11.0, 13.2, etc. rail system you have to cut and fit each rail pannel.

-XTM pannels are 1/2 - 1/3 the price of Tango Down pannel

I really like the Tango Down pannels and used them for years. But I really like the XMT pannels for reasons stated above.

2.) Which aiming reticle are you running in the ACOG, which color, and why?

I have always run the red donut reticle (bought my first TA11 from Botach Tactical in 1998 for $800).

I have used amber in the past, but have had it wash out on me or become difficult to pick up on some backgrounds (amber reticle + 400 yard card board target + dirt (close to cardboard color) berm background.......Red stands out much better to my eyes than amber and provides more contrast against everything I have come across with the exception of orange targets....but amber doesn't provide a very good contrast on orange either).

The reason I run the donut (round) reticle is because it's easier on my pea brain.

Every optic that I have that has some sort of illuminated reticle......the illuminated reticles all have 2 things in common......they are all red and they are all round.

With only a couple exceptions most of the reticles (Aimpoints, TA11s, etc) all have close to a 4 MOA dot. If I'm shooting at distance I don't have to think too much about hold overs. Around 50 yards, center of the dot - point of aim / point of impact.....Around 100 yards, top of the dot - point of aim / point of impact.....Around 200 yards, center of the dot - point of aim / point of impact.....Around 300 yards, bottom of the dot - point of aim / point of impact.....Around 400 yards, hold the dot just above what you want to hit - point of aim / point of impact.....

I have 13 AR's (10 Aimpoints, 2 ACOG TA11s, and a Leupold MR/T). I can pull anyone of them out and everything is very close to being the same. My Leupold MR/T 1.5-5x is the only optic that deviates from the rest, but it's so simple it's hard to screw up.


Hope this helps.


S/F,
Jeff



Thanks in advance.


An older pic:
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Group%20Gun%20Pics/IMG_0345.jpg

PRGGodfather
09-15-08, 18:47
Beautiful stick, brother.

theJanitor
09-15-08, 19:15
13 AR's? i'm bookmarking this page, just so i can refer back to it and tell myself that it's OK to build another rifle.

SWATcop556
09-17-08, 18:40
Thank you for the run down on the setup. I've been looking at taking the plunge on an ACOG for one of my rifles and I like the way you have it set up for the 50 yard BZO. Makes the setup pretty fool-proof (read: "cop-proof).

I'll have to order some of the Magpul rail cover and give them a shot. My only complaint with the TD covers was they were always a little thick for my hands and they were only one length.