View Full Version : ? about SBR w/ suppressor
So I'm working up the balls to put in a proposal to allow officers to SBR their personally owned rifles and purchase suppressors. Before I start selling stuff to finance this (kid on the way so no new money), I wanted to make sure I have everything planned out and budgeted for.
I'm looking at the LMT 10.5 upper and full auto bolt carrier with some type of suppressor. What suppressors work well with this upper that are not completely out of my price range (like surefire)? I'd like to to be a quick detach so I was looking at either AAC or Gemtech.
Thanks
IMO, scrap the SBR idea and stick with 16" barrels.
If you really want a SBR, go for the 11.5" barrel. Better velocity, and generally more reliable.
The Gemtech G5 is an excellent can, as is the AAC SCAR-SD
You should also consider the Surefire 556K.
If you dont have your heart set on "quick" mount the OPS INC 15th model would be my choice.
Also, dont forget even though they are for duty use, you'll have to form 1 your receivers and pay the $200 tax.
I'm aware of the tax stamp even though it's for duty use. That's a big chunk of my budget right there. My main goal is to get a rifle I can use for close quarters without blowing out my eardrums. I figured with the short barrel and suppressor, that puts it right around the same length I'm already at. I'm not sure I really want anthing with an overal length longer than 16" with the suppressor.
I have a Colt right now and I am a little leary about mixing uppers and lowers. I figured the LMT it affordable and enough people are using it on Colts that it at least has a working track record. I'd like to have an 11.5 but the only Colt 11.5's I've seen put me past my budget and only come in the lightweight barrel. I've been looking at the Bravo Company 11.5 since it's in the barrel weight I want but I haven't met enough people who can say they've taken one to combat.
I guess my main concern is I've heard some of the suppressor manufacturers won't warrantee the rifles less than 11.5 so I was wondering what people were using on the LMT's.
A 5.56 SBR is a heck of a lot better than a MP5, but the better overall option is a 16". With the money you save on the stamp, put it towards a Surefire M4556 can.
Stick with the 16" and buy a suppressor. I'm not sure how much "CQB" you end up in, but I bet its not nearly as often a situation where a 16" would be a better choice.
BB493,
I have been thinking about doing a SBR for a dedicated SWAT carbine for over a year now, and just haven't gotten around to it yet.
I have owned both the Gem Tech M4-96D and the new Gem Tech G5 (both quick detach). For a SBR I personally would scrap the quick detach requirement from the equasion and go with something like the Gem Tech M4-02 supressor.
The reason I would consider the M4-02 over the M4-96D / G5 for a SBR Patrol Rifle is due to the following reasons:
-A quick detach generally means higher maintance and cleaning, and some quick detach systems and be tempermental. I like a quick detach for a 14.5" or 16" barrel when I'm going to shoot WITHOUT the suppressor the majority of the time, but prefer a dedicated suppressor on a SBR due to SBR's being loud and obnoxious.
-With a dedicated suppressor (liked the Gem Tech M4-02) you don't have to worry about point of impact shift (I expereinced up to 4" - 5" of point of impact shift with the M4-96D on a Colt 16" M4 barrel)
-A dedicated suppressor like the M4-02 is approximately $330 cheaper than a quick detach design. (The Gem Tech M4-02 is $495 + transfer and tax stamp)
-Weight and length. The M4-02 is 16 oz and is 6.25" (if I remember correctly it only adds just under 5" to the over all length of the barrel) vs. the G5 at 21 oz and 7" (adds around 6" to the over all length of the barrel). The M4-96D is 3/4" longer than the G5
-Mounts for a quick detach design are generally $75 - $100 per unit + install and shipping charges (my Gem Tech Bi Lock mount cost me $75 each + $30 shipping both ways + $25 install fee per gun.......If Gem Tech does the install and something goes wrong, they will make things right.....if a local smith does the work and he screws up your can (ie. baffel strikes, etc) you are S.O.L.......I figured having Gem Tech do the work was cheap insurance in the long run)
-SBR's are generally more reliable (or not as finikey) with a suppressor.
-A suppressor also offers the Patrol Officer many benifits (ie. communication with other officers, not damaging the Officer or other officer's hearing, blast is not as bad with a suppressor when the muzzle is close to cover, close to other Officers, etc, etc).
On a Patrol Rifle, I couldn't think of too many circumstances where you would want to remove the suppressor. Most situations the suppressor would be more of a benifit than a piece of gear that would hinder the officer.
If I were to do a SBR I would go with a SBR (10.5" or 11.5" of your choice) and something along the lines of a Gem Tech M4-02 for a dedicated suppressor.
Just my .02
Take care and stay safe,
Thus far you have received some good advice. A thorough balance sheet should be made up to determine if you require an SBR or if a 16" carbine will work better for you. I believe that the reason Steve and I bring this up is because it is very easy for some to get caught up in the "Cool Guy Factor" of the SBR in lieu of being totally honest about one's individual needs. For many AR shooters it isn't an issue because no matter the cost, they're gonna go for the soup of the day. We just like to be sure that those of us without a money tree in the backyard that have a real need for the right tool for the right job, get just that. Although Steve and I don't always agree, I do concur that an 11.5" barrel is a better choice than a 10.5". As was mentioned velocity, and even moreso, reliability are increased. The only perceivable negative is the exta inch of barrel. In my use and training, I have found that extra inch is virtually without punishment.
As to the suppressors, again, you have received good intel. I would only add the Gemtech HALO to your list of choices. I look at the HALO as one of the better general purpose suppressors. It isn't especially heavy or long. It can easily be mounted to any carbine with a "NATO 22mm flash hider". While this may not be a priority in your initial requirements, it is definitely a benefit. And as is always important for LEOs to consider, the price is right. ;)
Disclaimer: When I wrote my post above I had a few shots of J.D.....That being said my reading comprehension is not the best when I've been hanging out with Jack Daniels :D Thus there are a few things that I missed in BB493's post.
Just a few options you may want to consider:
My Department doesn't allow Patrol Officers (non-SWAT) to use SBR's or suppressors (SWAT members can use either or both).
That being said, if your Department is progressive enough to allow SBR's or supressors, that's awesome.
I see very little application for a SBR in patrol. And please don't take that statement the wrong way, I don't want to turn this into a SWAT vs. Patrol thread. A majority of my work in SWAT is CQB missions and for the last 7 1/2 years I've used either a 16" barrel or a 14.5" barrel with a perminately attached muzzle devise (16" overall length) for SWAT, and see no REAL need to go with a SBR. I'm 5'06" and have had no major issues in confined spaces with a 16" barreled carbine.
In patrol a majority of the time you will depoly the carbine will be for permiter work (barricaded gunman, bank robbery, etc), felony take downs, etc. A majority of the time you will be out in the open. There are times where you will get to clear a house, school, warehouse, etc (burglary in progress, alarm, open door, etc). In this application I feel that a 16" barrel (when I refer to a 16" barrel I'm refering to a barrel that is 16" or a 14.5" barrel with a muzzle devise that brings the barrel out to 16" overall length) is a better choice.
A few of the down sides to a suppressor:
-Weight: A suppressor can drastically effect the weight and balance of a gun. I have carbines that have balance very well and feel good in the hands, but once a suppressor is added the gun becomes very muzzle heavy, feels unbalanced and cumbersome.
-Heat: Under sustained fire (tactical carbine class, department qualification, etc) a suppressor becomes very hot, extreemly fast. I have read somewhere (either in a manual or on a supressor manufacturer's website) that for every shot you shoot through a supressor it raises the tempture of the suppressor. So just shooting a mag of 28 rounds raises the temp of the suppressor 210 degrees (and that's not counting the ambient tempture outside). If the temp outside is 90 degrees and you shoot a 28 round mag though the suppressor it will be approximately 300 degrees. The barrel, forend, upper, lower, and even the buffer tube can be effected by the heat to differing degrees.
-Carbon Build Up: Shooting a suppressor on an AR platform makes the gun extreemly dirty in a very short period of time.
-Noise: In enclosed areas (smaller rooms, hall ways, etc) a suppressor can be suprisingly loud. Not as loud as a non-suppressed gun, but it's still loud.
-Point of Impact Shift: With most suppressors you are going to experience some degree of point of impact shift. There are many factors involved (ie. suppressor make and model, length of barrel, countour of barrel, etc)
You stated that the main reason you wanted to go with a SBR and a suppressor was to: "My main goal is to get a rifle I can use for close quarters without blowing out my eardrums. I figured with the short barrel and suppressor, that puts it right around the same length I'm already at. I'm not sure I really want anthing with an overal length longer than 16" with the suppressor."
In a law enforcement setting chances are slim to none that the other Officers around you and the bad guy will be using suppressors. But chances are high that if an Officer Involved Shooting occurs that you won't be the only person shooting. Thus you still want to wear hearing protection.
This may not be the coolest answer, but it may be one of the most cost effective and practical answers:
Have you considered just getting a pair of Peltor Comm-Tacs and put them in your rifle bag?
You could don a pair of Com-Tacs faster than you could put a Q.D. suppressor on a barrel and they will provide hearing protection from your gun, fellow officer's guns, and the suspects gun. This is something that a suppressor can't do.
I have had officers fire their carbines with there muzzle 12" or so from the right or left side of my head (think of going down the hall way in your standard house, it's not practical or possible for 2 grown men to walk shoulder to shoulder down a hall way). There are several instances that I can think of when a team mate may have to be a step or two behind me, off to my left or right, when he brings his rifle up to fire. This puts his muzzle even with the side of my head. Situations like this is where a pair of Peltor's pay for themselves.
A good set of hearing protection and a pair of eye protection in your rifle bag can go a long way. But that's a thread in and of it's self that belongs in the gear section.
I have been wearing Com-Tacs under my helmet on SWAT calls for the last 3 years and have been next to other team members when they have dischared their guns (both pistol and rifles), use of distraction devises, etc. Another advantage of the Com-Tacs is that they amplify the noise around you (ie. people talking, breaking branches, ruffling of leaves, hearing people in the attic when no one else could, etc).
-A LMT upper is $485 and the LMT bolt carrier group is $130
-Tax Stamp for the SBR is $200
-Tax Stamp for the Suppressor is $200
-Suppressor $500 to $1200
Total = approximately $1,515 to $2,215
A few options that may make bugitary constraints a little easier:
-*Instead of getting a complete upper, why not just purchase a new barrel ($250 ro $350 range vs. almost $500 for a new upper)
-*Skip the SBR route and if you don't like your current barrel, rebarrel the gun with a 16" or 14.5" (with perm. muzzle devise) and purchase a suppressor. This would save you the price of a new upper and the price of the tax stamp on the SBR.
If you are going with a suppressor on a 16" or 14.5" barrel I would suggest something along the lines of a Colt 14.5" M4 SOCOM barrel (heavier profile than the standard M4 Govt countour. Like the ones pictured here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=22&t=284588
I recently put the Colt 14.5" M4 SOCOM barrels on all 3 of my Colt LE6920's. This made a big difference on the point of impact shift on my G5 suppressor. I copied this from another thread I wrote in reference to the M4 SOCOM barrel + suppressor:
There is only 4 oz of difference between the Govt profile barrel and the M4 SOCOM barrel (you can tell a *slight* difference in weight). A pic of the M4 SOCOM barrel can be seen here:
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=22&t=284588
The reason I went with the Colt M4 SOCOM barrel (heavier profile) is due to point of impact change when using a suppressor. The shorter and stiffer the barrel is, the less point of impact change you will experience once the suppressor is installed on the barrel.
When using a suppressor, you will experience a point of impact change. All of my guns are sighted in at point of aim / point of impact at 50 yards. Here is what I expereince using the M4-96D and the G5 suppressor using both 16" M4 profile barrel and the heavier Colt 14.5" SOCOM barrel:
When I was using the M4-96D in conjunction with the Colt 16" M4 profile barrel, my point of impact was low and to the right (between 4 and 5 o'clock) and approximately 4" low at 50 yards.
After the M4-96D was converted to the G5, the G5's point of impact shifted to approximately 3" low at 6 o'clock using the same barrel at the same distance (host guns were 2 Colt LE6920's).
After switching to the Colt 14.5" M4 SOCOM barrel with the Gem-Tech G5, the groups are only approximately 1/2" between 5 and 6 o'clock at 50 yards.
BTW, the Gem-Tech Bi-Loc flash suppressor when perminately attached to a 14.5" barrel makes the barrel's overall length just over 16".
-*Stick with your current 16" barrel and get a Surefire suppressor. www.impactguns.com has the Surefire suppressor for $1,045 + the $200 tax stamp. This would save you the cost of a SBR tax stamp and the cost of a new barrel or upper. The advantage of the Surefire is that it's a back over the barrel design, is fairly light, has very little point of impact shift, and only extends 3.75" past the end of the muzzle (because approximately half of the suppressor goes back over the barrel)
-*Scrap both the SBR and suppressor projects and set up your current carbine the way you want it and have enough money for a 2nd carbine.
Just my opinion: For a Patrol carbine I would invest in a pair of Peltor Com-Tacs that I would keep in my rifle bag and scrap the SBR and the suppressor idea and use the funds to set my current carbine up exactly the way I wanted and if I had enough money left over I would purchase a 2nd carbine to use as a back up (incase my primary went down during training, was at the gunsmith, etc).
If you look at the big picture, a good set of electronic hearing protection cost as much as a tax stamp and the benifits of good hearing protection for a Patrol or SWAT Officer FAR outweight the benifits of a suppressor or a SBR (and that's not to say that suppressors and SBR are not desireable tools in a LEO setting, it's just you get so much more "bang" for your buck with a good set of electronic hearing protection).
But there are so many options out there that you really can't go wrong. You just need to find out what works best for you and get the best gear you can afford.
That being said, my answer is not the only answer and opinions vary based on personal preference, mission statement, and personal experience.
Good luck
Take care and stay safe,
Sorry for the long post and all the rambling ;)
Jeff, as usual, that was a great post.
I think I've just about decided to scrap my suppressor/sbr plans.
Now a suppressor for that .22 pistol is a whole other story... :D
Thanks for the replies. I'm still kind of set on doing this though. I'm basing this on my neighbor with the R0933 and a friend with a Jet suppressor. I've seen SBR's and suppressors independent of each other but have no personal experience using the SBR and suppressor together. We had a few SBR's at a class we hosted last year and I really like the way they handled. The one officer who had a mount for a Gemtech didn't bring the suppressor with him (was in use by another officer) but he seemed to like it. I was hoping KevinB would chime in since he was using the basic set up I'm interested in (although I think I'll avoid the non-US made cans).
As for my department allowing this, right now there is no policy and no one has brought up the issue. I have a really good track record of getting the impossible approoved so the other officers who are interested are asking me to put this in motion.
I plan on buying a new upper instead of cutting the barrel because I still want to have my 16" upper. Especially if I take any classes in non-class 3 friendly states.
As for the recomendation of getting another rifle.........well.........I'd actually be funding this by selling my M1A that I don't shoot very much anymore and cashing in my change jar (I almost completely payed off an engagement ring and four new tires with saved up loose change). I know, never sell a gun. I'm doing some reorganization of my guns so I'm selling or trading the ones that either don't come out to play or don't serve as backups.
Oh yeah, I do have a set of Peltor Tac6's that my wife gave me for my birthday. I've had those and a set of earplugs in my rifle case but it never seems I have enough time to grab them with the rifle. I think I might stick some in my stock though. I also have a second AR and I can always grab a department rifle if I needed one.
Thanks again for the advise.
The only reason I like SBR's is for doorkicking roles or vehicle jobs - both of which my job entailed (a job that ends today).
I have no LE experience so I will default to Jeff's advice for the Patrol rifle (and it echo's buddies who are LE's experience as well).
The only reason I like SBR's is for doorkicking roles or vehicle jobs - both of which my job entailed (a job that ends today).
I have no LE experience so I will default to Jeff's advice for the Patrol rifle (and it echo's buddies who are LE's experience as well).
If I can convince them to actually make these, the 14th model OPS INC suppressor, IMO is the best choice for a SBR, for as Kevin stated - what an SBR is used for.
Not supre quiet, but quiet enough to serve its purpose and not destroy the shooters hearing.
These are both 11.5" barrels, mine with the 14th model, and Eric's set up for a AAC SCAR-SD.
http://www.adcofirearms.com/junkpics/sbrsizes.jpg
http://www.silencertests.com/albums/LMT/IMG_0802.sized.jpg
I really enjoy my 10.5 inch LMT right now. I would say go for it. I would buy it over right away if I was without one. 11.5 will have an extra margin of gentleness on the silencer, but I have not had any problems with my 10.5.
Short barrels do punish silencers with the hot gas but it makes for a compact package.
Some suppressors take the punishment better than others.
http://i7.tinypic.com/21bm05f.jpg
What about it? That looks like .308 was shot on an AR10 though a 5.56mm can.
What really seems to have happened though is ammo fragments exploded all over the blast baffle. They certainly did not go through the little hole in the center.
What about it? That looks like .308 was shot on an AR10 though a 5.56mm can.
Strange, I don't see any projectile fragments. Looks like the blast baffle melted.
I think the fragments fell out before the photo was taken.
Are you calling Shivan a liar?
I think the fragments fell out before the photo was taken.
quoted for posterity.
Strange, I don't see any projectile fragments. Looks like the blast baffle melted.
+1 I've seen several suppressors off 4" and 6" M16PDW's send up looking like that.
Are you calling Shivan a liar?
No, it is consistant with what he said. He stated he fired just 200-300 rounds on an 11.5 and 14.5 inch barrel, semi auto. None full auto. That would not melt a blast baffle (obviously). So since it could not have melted, and since there are clearly impacts off center, then it must have been bullet fragments. What else would it be?
+1 I've seen several suppressors off 4" and 6" M16PDW's send up looking like that.
It was shot on a 11.5 and 14.5 semi auto only -- and very few rounds. Yes, 4" and 6" barrels put out some serious pressures and have poor ballistics.
So explain how a .308 through a 5.56 can would not blow off the can.
Settle down guys
rsilver -- I had no idea of the origins of the picture -- I have seen similar damage on the cans I mentioned ealier.
Robert,
Quit editing your posts, you aren't fooling anyone.
Guys-
Let's quit now while we're ahead, please?
Robert has to defend that damaged silencer as best he can. Without knowing 100% without a doubt what happened, he has to take the position he's taken.
It doesn't look like impacts to me either, but I don't know much. To me, it looks melted- something is melted and I don't think molten lead and copper came from the barrel- I would assume heat from the barrel melted that baffle.
If it was bullet impact and all that other crap, it would not be AACs fault. They fixed it for nothing and that either shows they want this one to end or that they have great customer service. You decide which to believe. I'm hopeful and think it's to prove that they will stand behind their products and work with customers.
Enough said as far as I am concerned.
I think the question was answered on the first page. This page is worthless.
Some suppressors take the punishment better than others.
http://i7.tinypic.com/21bm05f.jpg
Regardless of what can that is, I wonder how an OPS INC w/muzzle brake mount would have looked after the use/abuse?
Regardless of what can that is, I wonder how an OPS INC w/muzzle brake mount would have looked after the use/abuse?
Don't know but if the Ops brake did look like that you simply replace it.
How did the AAC flash suppressor look?
Was it burned and melted by bad ammo and fragments?
I bet it wasn't. I bet it was fine.
The last piece of the puzzle that doesn't add up on my old can:
If they were bullet impacts out of line of the bore at just 0.75" from the muzzle, why were there no catastrophic strikes in the rest of the can?
According to AAC, the bullets apparently struck the blast baffle, then travelled through the can within mm's of the center of the bore, striking baffles all the way through the can, and at the very last moment they nearly corrected themselves and exited the bore of the suppressor, just barely nicking it on the way out.
They took care of it under warranty.
Why??
Good customer service.
If it happens again, I am on my own.
Lesson learned for me, don't use the can on my 11.5" carbine unless I want to up the risk of damage to the can again.
The last piece of the puzzle that doesn't add up on my old can:
If they were bullet impacts out of line of the bore at just 0.75" from the muzzle, why were there no catastrophic strikes in the rest of the can?
According to AAC, the bullets apparently struck the blast baffle, then travelled through the can within mm's of the center of the bore, striking baffles all the way through the can, and at the very last moment they nearly corrected themselves and exited the bore of the suppressor, just barely nicking it on the way out.
They took care of it under warranty.
Why??
Good customer service.
If it happens again, I am on my own.
Lesson learned for me, don't use the can on my 11.5" carbine unless I want to up the risk of damage to the can again.
So you didn't shoot .308 through it then?
Here is what Robert posted last night before he edited it out:
Originally Posted by rsilvers
What about it? That looks like .308 was shot on an AR10 though a 5.56mm can.
CapnCrunch
07-29-06, 12:52
If I can convince them to actually make these, the 14th model OPS INC suppressor, IMO is the best choice for a SBR, for as Kevin stated - what an SBR is used for.
Not supre quiet, but quiet enough to serve its purpose and not destroy the shooters hearing.
These are both 11.5" barrels, mine with the 14th model, and Eric's set up for a AAC SCAR-SD.
http://www.adcofirearms.com/junkpics/sbrsizes.jpg
Interesting... Can we get some more details on 14th? Weight, length, suppression, etc? Maybe a comparo to the 15th?
You've always got the coolest cans ;)
Why do you edit everything you post Robert? You need to use the "advanced edit" option when editing so that you can list your reasoning for edits.
Or, at the very least, put a darn "ETA:" in your posts.
Don't try and be sly and remove half of what you say.
Interesting... Can we get some more details on 14th? Weight, length, suppression, etc? Maybe a comparo to the 15th?
The 14th is 3oz lighter than the 15th and 3/4" shorter. You trade db for size, but I think its great for a SBR. As the 12th model is quieter than the 15th, the 14th seems just about the same difference. Shooting I couldnt really tell much difference. I asked the folks at the other end of the range to listen and they said the 14th was louder, but it wasnt much more than a noticable difference.
Was it still quiet enough as to not give away one's position if used in a situation other than CQB?
I'm sure that question would have come up eventually.:D
Are you calling Shivan a liar?
No one from AAC has or will ever call Shivan or any other customer a "liar."
He stated he fired a few hundreds rounds of ammo on an 11.5" and 14.5" uppers, no full-auto. If this is the case...then it was a failure with the ammo, no other possibilty. We know that Shivan is a man of great integrity, so it was obviously the ammo. We gave him a free can anyway.
In five years, and thousands of cans, we have never seen this before. It is a learning lesson that we welcomed.
No one from AAC has or will ever call Shivan or any other customer a "liar."
He stated he fired a few hundreds rounds of ammo on an 11.5" and 14.5" uppers, no full-auto. If this is the case...then it was a failure with the ammo, no other possibilty. We know that Shivan is a man of great integrity, so it was obviously the ammo. We gave him a free can anyway.
In five years, and thousands of cans, we have never seen this before. It is a learning lesson that we welcomed.
As I noted, AAC went above and beyond in my case.
That is called good customer service.
Again, my lesson learned was that I will be using the can primarily on an 18" bolt gun, but if I do use it on one of my SBR's I will use nothing but "Tier 1" ammo.
Likely Black Hills or Federal XM193 -- certainly not South African M193.
Thanks for the replies. I'm still kind of set on doing this though. I'm basing this on my neighbor with the R0933 and a friend with a Jet suppressor. I've seen SBR's and suppressors independent of each other but have no personal experience using the SBR and suppressor together. We had a few SBR's at a class we hosted last year and I really like the way they handled. The one officer who had a mount for a Gemtech didn't bring the suppressor with him (was in use by another officer) but he seemed to like it. I was hoping KevinB would chime in since he was using the basic set up I'm interested in (although I think I'll avoid the non-US made cans).
As for my department allowing this, right now there is no policy and no one has brought up the issue. I have a really good track record of getting the impossible approoved so the other officers who are interested are asking me to put this in motion.
I plan on buying a new upper instead of cutting the barrel because I still want to have my 16" upper. Especially if I take any classes in non-class 3 friendly states.
As for the recomendation of getting another rifle.........well.........I'd actually be funding this by selling my M1A that I don't shoot very much anymore and cashing in my change jar (I almost completely payed off an engagement ring and four new tires with saved up loose change). I know, never sell a gun. I'm doing some reorganization of my guns so I'm selling or trading the ones that either don't come out to play or don't serve as backups.
Oh yeah, I do have a set of Peltor Tac6's that my wife gave me for my birthday. I've had those and a set of earplugs in my rifle case but it never seems I have enough time to grab them with the rifle. I think I might stick some in my stock though. I also have a second AR and I can always grab a department rifle if I needed one.
Thanks again for the advise.
BB493,
Sorry to see that your thread got hijacked. :confused:
Sorry for my long response, sometimes I can be practical to a fault.
You mentioned a BCM upper, I have heard nothing but good things about the BCM uppers and they come highly recommended by Pat Rogers and several of the members over at 10-8. Paul at Bravo Company ran a 11.5" BCM upper through Pat's class recently. You may want to check out the AAR over at the Training section at 10-8.
After much research, I was going to use a BCM upper for my SBR project. BCM uses CMT uppers (Colt also uses CMT as one of the suppliers of their uppers). I put a couple different CMT uppers on my Colt 6920 lowers and fit was perfect and finish was very close (maybe a shade or two of difference between the CMT uppers and Colt lowers).
You had mentioned warentee being a concern (suppressor). I know that Gem-Tech won't warentee their products on anything shorter than a 11.5" barrel. And I have heard of other companies with the same policies. Hopefully Steve or Eric from ADCO will stop in and give us the scoop on other companies (AAC, YMH, Surefire, etc) warentee policies in reference to barrel length.
I don't think you could go wrong with either the 11.5" or 10.5" set up. A word of caution with Bushmaster, I know several guys who have purchased 11.5" Bushmaster barrels and had problems with them.
As for selling guns, if you don't use it, sell it and buy something you will use. You won't regret it.
Looking forward to the pics and the AAR of the new projects!
Take care and stay safe,
Not Steve or Eric (sorry to disappoint), but off the top of my head I can tell you that the suppressor manufacturers generally denounce the 10.5" barrel. If you have an issue with one of their products used on a barrel shorter than 11.5", you may very well be on your own. Bullet stabilization is obviously of the utmost importance when it comes to suppressed weapons.
Sorry about that Damian :o
Thanks for the info! ;)
Jeff,
I was kind of surprised to see the hijack since I thought that issue had already been discussed to death on several other forums. It happens though.:rolleyes:
As for CMT, I keep hearing they supply for Colt but I have not found absolute confirmation of what exact parts they supply if at all. When I asked about it at the Colt armorer class earlier this month, the instructor said he has never heard of CMT and Colt makes all of it's parts except the magazines. Of course had had only just found out about the LE1020 so I'm not sure how connected he is with anything other than teaching the basic class. I asked Stag about it at Shot and they just smiled and said they couldn't talk about it. When I hear issues with CMT bolts not being staked properly, I start to wonder.
I think Bushmaster's are OK for a fun gun, but after the problems we've had with out patrol rifles, I'm not planning on ever using one for work (I still have one as a spare). I've heard good things about the BCM but just haven't seen enough people who can say they've given it the ultimate test. I know there are people saying good things about it now, but look at how many people still think Bushmasters are better quality than Colt. At least with the LMT, I can talk to enough people that I trust to say that they are reliable with a Colt lower and they trust it to work with their lives.
Ultimately I would like to stick with all Colt but they don't currently make the barrel that I want and cost becomes a real issue.
As for the suppresors, I briefly spoke with Kel about the HALO and he said people are using the LMT's and having success but you need to be careful about what ammo you use. One intersting note he mentioned is to use a later model LMT barrel as the early ones were machined differently and the HALO wouldn't fit properly.
KevinB, thanks for replying. The last two shootings in my department were both in very close proximity to vehicles. I've have a few close calls and they've all been within 5 - 15 feet.
BB493,
You had mentioned warentee being a concern (suppressor). I know that Gem-Tech won't warentee their products on anything shorter than a 11.5" barrel. And I have heard of other companies with the same policies. Hopefully Steve or Eric from ADCO will stop in and give us the scoop on other companies (AAC, YMH, Surefire, etc) warentee policies in reference to barrel length.
Take care and stay safe,
AFAIK, Gemtech is the only company that puts in in writing to NOT install on anything shorther than 11.5" barrels. I know AAC and OPS INC work great on barrels as short as 7". (There is a large PD out west that dumped their MP5s for 7" ARs w/15th model OPS INC suppressors)
There is the possibility of stabilization issues, but most of them come from mag dumps. I know of no "professional" ever needing numerous mag dumps to stop a threat. The yahoos who like to spend ammo on full auto at places like Knob Creek, will destroy most any suppressor on a SBR.
The first baffle gets blasted will all that pressure and unburnt powder, its life span is cut way short. If you want a suppressor on a short SBR, I believe the OPS MBS is the ONLY way to go. The brunt of the blast/abuse is absorbed by the muzzle brake, and not a baffle inside the suppressor.
Maybe I missed it, but what barrel do you want that Colt doesn't make?
I was looking for an 11.5 in a heavier barrel. I've only seen the lightweight R0933/6933 barrels. I was thinking of having SAW cut a barrel from another upper but cost really starts to become an issue.
in case you dont check this forum often
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=819
I shot a class with a guy who ran an LE6921 with an 11 inch barrel he said that the M4 cut was in the way of making it an 11.5. Elmore did the work.
I am looking into a 12.5 inch barrel for a SF can right now.
I shot a class with a guy who ran an LE6921 with an 11 inch barrel he said that the M4 cut was in the way of making it an 11.5. Elmore did the work.
He should have had someone else do the work. Theres no problem with the cut if you want to cut a 14.5" down to 11.5".
Very interesting topic!
So its best to avoid anything shorter than a 11.5 bbl on SBR when using a suppressor.
Good to know.
I would go down to as short as 10 inches as a rule.
I run a Novekse 12" with the HALO on almost all the "time", and about 50% of the rounds fired. It is removed for high-intensity training due to the thermal issues USMC03 discussed. The gun does get dry and dirty a lot faster with the can, but there has not been a reliability impact yet. I attribute this to a good build by John.
For the overall size of the weapon, think of it as a "quiet" SPR-- since it's a similar length and weight to the 18" SPR (without the OPS can obviously).
Sorry for the long post and all the rambling ;)
For what you were referring to, it was a great post.
Im leaning towards a LMT 10.5 upper for my next build ( 1st SBR ) .
lower= STAG (like every other AR Ive built)
Upper = Im leaning towards a LMT 10.5
Stock = Looking to try out a Magpul CTR (only magpul product ive got are MIAD)
BUIS = Larue (gotta keep it simple)
Rail = at a later point :D
GRIP = MIAD
But the thing that has me scratching my head is would a Gem tech HALO work on such a short barrel? Reason being is I have 4 other's with A2 FH's and Id like to have a suppresor that can be whored from one to another.
But the thing that has me scratching my head is would a Gem tech HALO work on such a short barrel? Reason being is I have 4 other's with A2 FH's and Id like to have a suppresor that can be whored from one to another.
Gemtech is a fantastic company and I bet if you called them up they'd be more than happy to discuss it with you.
Wow, what a necro-post. Oh well, here's an update. I have an LMT 10.5 and my form 4 went pending last week on a G5. I'll let you know how it works out when I get everything set up.
Well looks like I got my answer about the HALO and SBR's from Gem-Tech .
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 3:50 PM
To: techstaff@ gem-tech.com
Subject: HALO suppressor ( mounting on sbr )
Whats the shortest recommended AR-15 barrel length that a HALO may be mounted to?
The LMT 10.5 should be fine. Make sure it has the M4 type step-down so the HALO collar will go over the barrel. The early LMTs had no reduced-diameter behind the muzzle, and that caused interference with the closer. Other than that, many government clients are running HALOs on LMT 10.5s successfully.
We hope this has been responsive to your inquiry.
Thanks,
Guess that answer's that question for me.
I also recommend not running a crush or peel washer if you can help it, with the HALO. I have seen two HALOs that got baffle strikes because the HALO collar was misaligned due to the waster. My Noveske SBR has the A2 timed directly to the barrel shoulder.
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