View Full Version : Some interesting stuff from Chuck Hawkes
Littlelebowski
07-08-10, 19:20
I'll follow DocGKR's advice but posted here for discussion.
The linked article (http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm) also talks about how good the Glaser rounds are....
Now it is time to impart some crucial information: NEVER use 147 grain ammo in a 9mm pistol! There was a stupid fad for 147 grain hollowpoints a few years ago, and many were suckered into buying these weak, worthless and malfunction-prone rounds. I don't care what you've heard: never use any 9mm hollowpoint heavier than 125 grains. 147 grain hollowpoints often jam in many popular 9mm guns like the Browning Hi-Power, SIG, Beretta 92, S&W and Glock. Ignore the gun magazine hype and stick to what works. If you want to gamble, go to Reno. Don't gamble with your life. 147 grain ammo sucks
NMBigfoot02
07-08-10, 19:33
Someone who makes recommendations based on their own personal biases/limited experiences for all to see on the internet.
What's new?
Bullshit, with a grain of truth.
Way back when I know some of the Winchester and Federal stuff that was 147gr and being pushed as THE answer was running over a friend's crono in the high 600s/low700s fps wise.
Piss poor choice for ammo, both from a reliability standpoint and from a wound ballistics standpoint.
Modern 147gr ammo is as reliable as anything, and bullets such as the HST and Ranger-T work very well in this weight.
A typical Marshal and Sinow follower that bases his stuff on total unfounded info.
I really liked this definatly likes his high velocity stuff..
"All .223 hollowpoints are good stoppers. I really like the Federal 40 grain P223V high-velocity hollowpoint (formerly called the "Blitz" round). Marshall says this is the #1 urban defense load. It is lighter than other .223 bullets, however, so you'll need to adjust your sights if you carry the P223V (it shoots lower than all other .223 loads)."
and this...
"Now it is time to impart some crucial information: NEVER use 147 grain ammo in a 9mm pistol! There was a stupid fad for 147 grain hollowpoints a few years ago, and many were suckered into buying these weak, worthless and malfunction-prone rounds. I don't care what you've heard: never use any 9mm hollowpoint heavier than 125 grains. 147 grain hollowpoints often jam in many popular 9mm guns like the Browning Hi-Power, SIG, Beretta 92, S&W and Glock. Ignore the gun magazine hype and stick to what works. If you want to gamble, go to Reno. Don't gamble with your life. 147 grain ammo sucks.
how many of you guys have had bad malfunctions with good quality carry ammo in 147 grn in your glocks?
"Some other authorities rely entirely on the latter (e.g. Dr. Martin Fackler, the FBI Wound Ballistics Lab, the National Institute of Justice Ballistic Research Laboratory)"
and to suggest that this man does not know what he is talking about wow.
I guess it is to be expected if he likes Marshall and Sinow I should not be suprised.:rolleyes:
"Bullshit, with a grain of truth."
Good point, small amounts of truth mixed in with a whole bunch of B.S.
Littlelebowski
07-08-10, 21:18
What's weird is that his info is so clearly years out of date yet he updated it in 2006.
I guess no one told LAPD or SDPD about this since both have had great success with 147gr loads.
I guess no one told LAPD or SDPD about this since both have had great success with 147gr loads.
Along with lots of other agencies that didn't base their ammunition purchases on articles by gun magazine writers with financial interests in whiz bang ammo companies or fictional books.....
A couple of them were so vociferous in their BS articles, that many still believe that horseshit.....
Bullshit, with a grain of truth.
Way back when I know some of the Winchester and Federal stuff that was 147gr and being pushed as THE answer was running over a friend's crono in the high 600s/low700s fps wise.
Piss poor choice for ammo, both from a reliability standpoint and from a wound ballistics standpoint.
Modern 147gr ammo is as reliable as anything, and bullets such as the HST and Ranger-T work very well in this weight.
Quality control among the major ammo companies could sometimes be spotty back in the 80's, and I remember seeing ammo that was as much under spec as you mention. I was also there when our rangemaster chronographed some .38 special ammo that was 250 fps faster than it was supposed to be.....:eek:
A famous gunwriter and training "guru" came to my city for a national training seminar, and during his talk, he spoke of how poorly the 147 9mm performed in actual shootings, repeating what he had been writing in the magazines. When someone in the audience mentioned that our department had over 40 shootings with it at that point, all of them satisfactory, he turned to the crowd and said "well, most of those were submachine gun shootings, and we can't base anything on them". When the same member of the audience tried to point out that we hadn't had a sub gun shooting with the 147 grain load, he ignored him and changed the subject.
Rampant Colt
07-10-10, 16:43
There's another Hawks article where he mentions in the same sentence how birdshot is poor for self-defense except when fired from a 10 gauge..:rolleyes:
He's so FOS his eyes are brown
RogerinTPA
07-10-10, 19:54
I heard and read that back in the 80's. Clearly this individual is not keeping up with current ammo designs and developments.
Aurispector
07-16-10, 18:09
It's amazing how BS about ammo/ballistics takes on a life of it's own and never quite dies. Zombie BS!
Of course, what Chuck is hawking is no worse than what you hear at the gun shop counter, but since he managed to set himself up as something of an "authority", what he says is sort of like herpes - you never get rid of it.
I'll follow DocGKR's advice but posted here for discussion.
The linked article (http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm) also talks about how good the Glaser rounds are....
I had a customer at a gun show bring me that article after I had sold him a box (yes ONE whole box) of 147gr Gold dot loaded HSM ammo on my reccomendation.
he was pretty perturbed that I had misled him into this "crap" and wanted to swap for some 124.
After an lengthy explanation again of the benefits of the heavier 9mm load I left him with the best advice i could give him...
"bro, ANY ammo you choose for self defense should be well tested in the gun you wish to use it in. If it wont work in your gun, then you need to find something else that will. now here, buy a box of the 124's as well, then come back tell me which one worked best in your gun"
I never heard back from him, he probably STILL hasn't tried either box, but I'll bet he's carrying the 124's.
GECO "Blitz Action Trauma" or BAT 9mm rounds from Germany are a proven design. Called the "GECO Action Safety" in Europe, this is a high velocity (1400 feet per second) lightweight (86 grain) hollow bullet that has proven itself to be very reliable and successful on the street..
Remington 88 grain 9mm JHP (R9MM5) This bullet is far too light
So 88 grain is far to light but 86 grain is proven reliable.
147gr has consistently been the "most" accurate and reliable in ALL my Hi-Powers for over a decade. I guess I'd better throw all my RA9T out:eek:
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