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USMC03
06-07-07, 07:49
I have found that over the years I prefer M4's with a 14.5" barrel when using a Aimpoing or Short Dot for SWAT / Duty use and I prefer Mid-Length carbines with the TA11 ACOG for a general purose gun.

I run TA11's on my Mid-Lengths because I have found that the 16" barreled mid-length are perfect as a general purpose carbine at medium to longer distances (just my opinion and for my purposes).

The Mid-Length gas system provides a longer sight radius (not that it matters when using an ACOG) and longer handguard / rail system. The longer handguard is advantageous when not using a vertical foregrip as it gives you more real estate to hold onto, and the longer handguard / more real estate proves it's worth when resting the forearm on barricades (in centain situations I have found that the carbine length hand guard is not long enough to rest on the barricade).

I prefer the TA11 over the TA31 due to the more generous eye relief, I am much quicker with the TA11 than I am with the TA31.

Once they are released I'll put a Magpul UBR or possibly one of the new Vltor E-MOD stock to this gun (review of the Vltor E-MOD stock can be seen at Military Morons site: http://www.militarymorons.com/weapons/ar.furniture.html#emod )

On another board, someone asked me why I don't use a vertical foregrip on my mid-lengths (w/ ACOGs) any more:


Did you dump your Vertical Fore Grip for the shoot (match) or altogether now Jeff?



Xxxxx,


After much trial and error, I have come to the following conclusion: -Guns that I do a lot of CQB work with I prefer the vertical foregrip. The vertical foregrip helps me "drive" the gun on closer targets, is more ergonomical for accessing a weapon mounted light, gives more power on muzzle strikes and weapon retention, etc.

On guns that I do a lot of *long range shooting* with, I prefer NO vertical foregrip, because I can steady the gun much better on longer shots without the vertical foregrip. The lack of a vertical foregrip also helps me drive and stop the gun better when transitioning from one target to another at longer distances, and has an advantage on barricades, etc. The rifle match has 75%+ of the targets placed from 100 yards - 425 yards.

Something that I noticed when using a vertical foregrip and long range targets....when I would transition from one target to another, I would always pass the target I was transitioning to and have to come back to it (ie. I would "over shoot" or by pass the target).

I don't know why, but on close targets I can drive the gun and stop on a dime at close distances....but at long range targets, I would always pass the target and have to come back to it.

Without a vertical foregrip, I can stop on a dime when transitioning from one target to another at longer distances. Without a vertical foregrip, I wrap my hand round the forend and point my index finger in the same direction as the muzzle (index finger is pointing forward along the 9 o'clock rail) Example: demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/PRM-2006.11/?small=D100_5707_img.jpg

On my guns that have ACOG's, Leupold MR/T 1.5-5x M2's, (guns set up for medium to long range shooting) I have removed the vertical foregrips and run just the LaRue handguard and Tango Down pannels.

On my guns with Aimpoints / Short Dots (work guns or guns set up for close to medium range shooting), I still run the vertical foregrips.


Distance = time. Time affords you the ability to get into more stable positions (ie. sitting, prone, braced kneeling, the use of barricades, etc, etc.) In these position a vertical foregrip has no advantage, and can often get in the way. When most of your shots are closer and you are in the standing position or on the move, this is the area where the vertical foregrip shines. I guess it's all about selecting the right tool for the job. Just my opinion based on my personal experiences, as with all things, your milage may vary. [;)]



Stag Arms Coyote Mid-Length:

-Complete Stag Arms lower

-Sabre Defence upper, 1/7" Mid-Length Barrel, Gov't Profile, M4 feedramps in a Sabre Defence upper

-LaRue Tactical 9.0 rail system

-Tango Down rail pannels

-Trijicon TA11 ACOG

-LaRue Tactical ACOG Mount

-Troy Industries Dual Apeture BUIS

-Tango Down Battle Grip pistol grip

-KNS non-rotating hammer / trigger pin set

-Vltor Carbine Modstock w/ butterfly latch

-Magpul Enhanced Trigger Guard

-Blue Force Gear VCAS sling



http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20foliage/DSC02093.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20foliage/DSC02094.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20foliage/DSC02097.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20foliage/DSC02098.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20foliage/DSC02096.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20foliage/DSC02095.jpg

Both mid-lengths:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/group%20pics/coyoteStagmidlengthfoliageStag-Sabr.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/group%20pics/coyoteStagmidlengthfoliageStag-S-1.jpg




Semper Fi,
Jeff

HAMMERDROP
06-10-07, 23:54
I really like the contrast between the black and furniture color, on each weapon. Really nice ... the ACOGs'. What is the weight on each loaded?

USMC03
06-11-07, 17:24
I really like the contrast between the black and furniture color, on each weapon. Really nice ... the ACOGs'. What is the weight on each loaded?



Only thing I have avalible to me that will weigh anything under 10- 15 lbs is a non-digital bathroom scale.

Both guns weigh between 7 and 8 lbs *unloaded* ........... The needle looked to be perfectly centered between the 7 and 8, so I would say very close to 7.5 lbs each (unloaded)




-Jeff

USMC03
07-10-07, 15:52
Updated pics with Vltor's new EMod Stock:


http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20foliage/EMOD1.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20foliage/EMOD2.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20foliage/EMOD5.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20foliage/EMOD6.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20foliage/EMOD4.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20foliage/EMOD3.jpg


Semper Fi,
Jeff

Inspector-Callahan
07-17-07, 17:55
Does Magpul offer their products in Foliage green? I see on their website OD green listed but no foliage green.

Is this flavor possibly in the works for future products?

Anybody have any intel one way or the other?

IC

RHR
07-17-07, 18:59
Jeff, How do you like the EMod stock?

IC, Magpul has foliage green.

Honulea
07-18-07, 00:11
Jeff,

I really like your gun pics and am building one along the lines of the green gun except with a SB Zenith LE. What is the barrel length on a mid-length gun? I thought that the Larue 9.0 would cover the original front sight position. Did you move the FSB forward and re-pin?

Creighton

USMC03
07-18-07, 13:51
Jeff, How do you like the EMod stock?

IC, Magpul has foliage green.


I'm really digging it. Perfect fit on a mid-length. I still prefer the SOPMOD on a M4, but the EMod is a perfect fit on a mid length. Feels right, balances well, comfort and ergonomics are outstanding.



Jeff,

I really like your gun pics and am building one along the lines of the green gun except with a SB Zenith LE. What is the barrel length on a mid-length gun? I thought that the Larue 9.0 would cover the original front sight position. Did you move the FSB forward and re-pin?

Creighton

The mid-length is a 16" barrel.

The 3 most common type of gas systems are the Carbine (same length as the M4 carbine) and takes a 7.0 rail. The mid-length gas system is 2" longer (thus the front sight housing and gas port are 2" forward of where they are on a carbine length gas system) and takes a 9.0" rail. The rifle lenght (same gas system on the AR15 or M16 with 20" barrel) and takes a 12.0" rail.

Here is a mid-length gas system and a carbine length gas system side by side:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/group%20pics/coyoteColtcoyoteStagmidlength.jpg?t=1184783715



16" barrel with MID-LENGTH gas system:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/v/vspfiles/photos/BCM-URG-MID-16-2.jpg

16" barrel with CARBINE gas system:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/v/vspfiles/photos/BCM-URG-M4-16-2.jpg

(pay close attention to the distance between the front of the receiver and the front sight tower).



Semper Fi,
Jeff

Paulinski
07-18-07, 14:03
Great pictures and information as usual.

I also found that Daniel Defense 9.5 FSP rail will give a little extra real estate to support the barrel on a barricade on a carabine length upper. Of course the 12.0 mid length DD FSP rail will do the same to middy upper :)

USMC03
07-18-07, 14:51
Personally, I've never found the 9.0 to be lacking in real estate when resting on a barricade (and don't think 0.5" would make much of a difference):

http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2006.11/small/D100_5214_img.jpg

http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2006.11/small/D100_5227_img.jpg

http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2006.11/small/D100_5410_img.jpg

http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2006.11/small/D100_5425_img.jpg

http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2006.11/small/D100_5449_img.jpg

http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2006.11/small/D100_5734_img.jpg



I have found numerous positions where the 7.0 is too short. I have never found a barricade / obsticle that has presented a problem with the 9.0. I have never "needed" anything longer than a 9.0. Perfect length in my opinion.

If the handguard is long enough to rest on a 55 gallon barrel with a 30 round mag inserted, there isn't another barricade that I can think of that will present a problem.

In my opinion putting a 12.0 on a 16" barrel isn't really doing much. You are paying more for the longer rail, adding extra weight, and getting not an ounce of gain in performance / balance / stabilizaion on a barricade for the extra cost / weight.

Just my personal experiences, your milage may vary.




Semper Fi,
Jeff

Paulinski
07-18-07, 15:27
Jeff

I was mainly referring to 9.5 hand guard on car length upper. It will still let you rest the weapon on a drum with 30 round mag. :)

USMC03
07-18-07, 19:23
Jeff

I was mainly referring to 9.5 hand guard on car length upper. It will still let you rest the weapon on a drum with 30 round mag. :)


Gotcha.....Sorry about the mis-comm.......Thought we were talking about mid-lengths ;)

Roger that on the 9.5 FSP. Had one on a 6920 a few years ago.



Stay safe,
Jeff

Inspector-Callahan
07-18-07, 20:53
Jeff, How do you like the EMod stock?

IC, Magpul has foliage green.

Where is it listed? Their website only shows MIAD's in FDE, OD and Black. I would think the Miad would be offerred in every conceivable flavor?

Is it available via some other source?



IC

Honulea
07-22-07, 04:58
Jeff,

Thanks for the lesson and for always being patient and informative with your posts.

Creighton

USMC03
07-23-07, 22:26
From this weekend's match. Really like the new Vltor EMod:

http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007.07/smaller/D461_8945_img.jpg
Larger version of above photo. (http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007.07/medium/D461_8945_img.jpg)

http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007.07/smaller/D461_8960_img.jpg
Larger version of above photo. (http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007.07/medium/D461_8960_img.jpg)

http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007.07/small/D461_9039_img.jpg
Larger version of above photo. (http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007.07/medium/D461_9039_img.jpg)

http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007.07/smaller/D461_9051_img.jpg
Larger version of above photo. (http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007.07/medium/D461_9051_img.jpg)

http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007.07/smaller/D461_9146_img.jpg
Larger version of above photo. (http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007.07/medium/D461_9146_img.jpg)

http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007.07/smaller/D461_9150_img.jpg
Larger version of above photo. (http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007.07/medium/D461_9150_img.jpg)





Semper Fi,
Jeff

ISAIAH53
07-24-07, 06:17
Where is it listed? Their website only shows MIAD's in FDE, OD and Black. I would think the Miad would be offerred in every conceivable flavor?

Is it available via some other source?



IC

I got mine from a guy named Grant at G&R Tactical.

Spooky130
07-28-07, 10:12
Where is it listed? Their website only shows MIAD's in FDE, OD and Black. I would think the Miad would be offerred in every conceivable flavor?

Is it available via some other source?



IC

I found that they are not listed on their site but are available from vendors. As someone said below, Grant has foliage MagPul gear (I got a CTR, MIAD, and some panels from him a couple weeks ago). I also got some stuff from Bravo Company as well. You just have to look a little bit.

Spooky

USMC03
08-20-07, 17:36
http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007.07/smaller/D461_9050_img.jpg

http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007.07/smaller/D461_9056_img.jpg

http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007.07/smaller/D461_9057_img.jpg

http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007.07/smaller/D461_9071_img.jpg




Semper Fi,
Jeff

USMC03
02-04-08, 21:35
Some indoor pics (still working on my camera-fu):

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20foliage/IMG_0037a.jpg?t=1202182356

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20foliage/IMG_0068a.jpg?t=1202182376

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20foliage/IMG_0069a.jpg?t=1202182403

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s206/molsen2295/USMC03/Stag%20midlength%20foliage/IMG_0038a.jpg?t=1202182425





S/F,
Jeff

Bad_Karma
02-06-08, 04:51
Awesome pics and review USMC03! I love the two tone green and black. I've been thinking about a foliage green CTR stock, Tango Down battelgrip and rail covers for my new Noveske 6.8mm upper (Colt lower).

I'm not high speed or anything but I agree about the lack of a vertical foregrip. I've had a GG&G and now a Tango Down Stubby vertical grip. Of all the vertical grips I've tried I like the stubby Tango Down the best, but I still keep coming back to no grip. I guess I've just gotten used to the typical ergonomics for so long that vertical grips just don't feel right to me.

USMC03
04-20-08, 22:10
Last week I received a Sabre lower receiver with LMT lower parts kit, that I ordered back in December of '07. Added the Magpul UBR stock (quickly becoming my favorite stock for mid-length carbines and carbines with longer rail systems), Magpul MIAD pistol grip, and Magpul Foliage Green P-Mag.

I'm really diggin' this carbine:

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Sabre%20Defense%20Foliage/IMG_0188.jpg?t=1208746417

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Sabre%20Defense%20Foliage/IMG_0189.jpg?t=1208746688

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Sabre%20Defense%20Foliage/IMG_0190.jpg?t=1208746717

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Sabre%20Defense%20Foliage/IMG_0182.jpg?t=1208747106

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Sabre%20Defense%20Foliage/IMG_0183.jpg?t=1208746763

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Sabre%20Defense%20Foliage/IMG_0184.jpg?t=1208746783

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Sabre%20Defense%20Foliage/IMG_0185.jpg?t=1208746808

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Sabre%20Defense%20Foliage/IMG_0186.jpg?t=1208746829

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Sabre%20Defense%20Foliage/IMG_0187.jpg?t=1208746859





S/F,
Jeff

johnson
04-22-08, 14:38
Is that the same rifle as the first one or a different build?

USMC03
04-26-08, 09:56
Is that the same rifle as the first one or a different build?

Same gun through out the entire thread.



S/F,
Jeff

YukonGlocker
05-02-08, 01:18
Which color of PMAG is that pictured above?

YukonGlocker
05-02-08, 22:25
Foliage green or OD green?

USMC03
05-03-08, 17:34
Yukon,


The mag and all the furniture are Foliage Green.





S/F,
Jeff

NickB
05-03-08, 18:32
Thanks for the info, Jeff. You've convinced me to order a new 16" upper for the build I started today.

Lancelot
05-03-08, 19:06
But its green.......



:D

chadbag
05-04-08, 02:48
I like the Foliage Green color too. I have a build that will get finished up one of these years (whenever Randall gets the barrel finished [hint hint]) and it is being dressed mostly in Foliage Green. It is using the older MGI upper and will be primarily a 6.8 SPC SPR type gun but will have some 556 capability as well.

The Carbine shown in this thread is good looking in Foliage Green. While it is the least popular of the colors for Magpul and other brands of parts (at least with my sales), it is one of my more favorites ones!

Chad

keller
05-04-08, 14:19
Very nice.

USMC03
05-07-08, 18:10
Thanks for the info, Jeff. You've convinced me to order a new 16" upper for the build I started today.



No problem Brother. Hope you found some of the info useful.



I was having some issues with the last set of pics, and they got nuked. Here are some new indoor pics of the Foliage Mid-Length. The color in these pics are a much better representation of foliage green:

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Sabre%20Defense%20Foliage/IMG_0312.jpg

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Sabre%20Defense%20Foliage/IMG_0313.jpg

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Sabre%20Defense%20Foliage/IMG_0314.jpg

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Sabre%20Defense%20Foliage/IMG_0315.jpg

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Sabre%20Defense%20Foliage/IMG_0316.jpg

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Sabre%20Defense%20Foliage/IMG_0317.jpg



S/F,
Jeff

USMC03
05-11-08, 10:07
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Sabre%20Defense%20Foliage/IMG_0332.jpg

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Sabre%20Defense%20Foliage/IMG_0335.jpg

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Sabre%20Defense%20Foliage/IMG_0334.jpg

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Sabre%20Defense%20Foliage/IMG_0336.jpg

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Sabre%20Defense%20Foliage/IMG_0338.jpg

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Sabre%20Defense%20Foliage/IMG_0341.jpg

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Sabre%20Defense%20Foliage/IMG_0343.jpg

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Sabre%20Defense%20Foliage/IMG_0342.jpg




S/F,
Jeff