View Full Version : I tried the AK again, but I just can't like it.
This is the second time I tried to shoot the AK, and I am unimpressed to say the least. I purchased the AK after reading here how the Hungarian SA-85Ms were some of the better built AKs currently on the market, so when I found a 100% FEG built post-ban I grabbed it up. I added a K-Var warsaw furniture kit, Tapco G2 trigger group to get it in compliance, and a nice Specter 3 point sling. I then ordered up 1000rds of Golden Tiger to feed it.
From todays range trip I decided the following....
The safety location sucks on the AK. Period.
I can't charge the weapon while shouldered like you can with the AR15, and the bolt does not hold open on an empty magazine making quick reloads difficult.
The sight radius is poor, and I had trouble getting good hits with the AK. This may be my fault for not spending enough time with it. I also had trouble getting a fast sight picture with it, and dislike the hooded front sight.
Recoil hindered my follow up shots. I may have been spoiled by the AR-15s recoil system, so call me a wuss if you want. I am 6'00 and 240lbs, and I was shooting with a good stance and still had lots of trouble with it.
The gun was very reliable, not one malfunction in the 150rds that have been fired through it. I know the previous owner personally and he fired 10rds thru it and I fed it another 140 myself without issue.
I just can not force myself to like the weapon. I wish I would have shot it before I dropped the money on furniture, trigger, ammo, and mags, I would have saved some work and money. I guess I should probably keep it with the pending legislation, but I doubt I will shoot it again. One more gun destined for the back of the safe.....
Bulldog1967
06-09-07, 15:27
Hey its not for everyone.
You have to evaluate what works for you and go with that.
For me, my AK(s) are my "go-to" guns.
Don't get me wrong, I have a LOT of $$ tied up in it, so I wish I could get the hang of it. I guess its just down to personal preference.
I'm not bashing anyone who likes the AK platform, I am just venting because I am too lazy to adjust.
Some thoughts:
1) The AK is not an M4. The AK is not an M4. The AK is not an M4
2) Reach over the top or under and behind the magazine with your off hand (if right handed) to charge the rifle
3) Sight radius is the same as an M4 (within an inch or two), but I think because it's a notch in post instead of peep and post sight makes shots a little more difficult for us who have trained mostly on the peep and post.
4) If you have difficulty picking up the front sight, get an XS 24/7 sight for the front (not the Big Dot, unless the 24/7 post sight isn't enough). Also, learn to use the ears of the front sight base as a sighting system (a rough one) for close in shots.
5) Shoot it more and you'll get used to recoil. If not, get yourself a 5.45 or 5.56 AK.
disconnector
06-09-07, 20:43
Some thoughts:
1) The AK is not an M4. The AK is not an M4. The AK is not an M4
2) Reach over the top or under and behind the magazine with your off hand (if right handed) to charge the rifle
3) Sight radius is the same as an M4 (within an inch or two), but I think because it's a notch in post instead of peep and post sight makes shots a little more difficult for us who have trained mostly on the peep and post.
4) If you have difficulty picking up the front sight, get an XS 24/7 sight for the front (not the Big Dot, unless the 24/7 post sight isn't enough). Also, learn to use the ears of the front sight base as a sighting system (a rough one) for close in shots.
5) Shoot it more and you'll get used to recoil. If not, get yourself a 5.45 or 5.56 AK.
I second the 5.45 vote. I built a Bulgarian 5.45 rifle and I haven't shot my 7.62 rifles since. Zero zip nada recoil with the brake. It literally is like shooting an pump up air rifle. Plus the ammo is super cheap.
Fast reloads? Watch this - http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v179/Catch22/catch22/?action=view¤t=alternatedrill.flv
You CAN reload an AK as fast as an AR platform rifle - it just takes more practice. I do agree that the stock safety sucks, but there are aftermarket and homegrown fixes for that.
Although I dearly love my Armalite, for TEOTWAWKI I'm grabbing my AKs. They just run forever with zero upkeep. Plus if you have to you can literally beat someone to death with the empty mags - try that with an AR :p
Disconnector
Jay Cunningham
06-09-07, 20:45
This is the second time I tried to shoot the AK, and I am unimpressed to say the least. I purchased the AK after reading here how the Hungarian SA-85Ms were some of the better built AKs currently on the market, so when I found a 100% FEG built post-ban I grabbed it up. I added a K-Var warsaw furniture kit, Tapco G2 trigger group to get it in compliance, and a nice Specter 3 point sling. I then ordered up 1000rds of Golden Tiger to feed it.
From todays range trip I decided the following....
The safety location sucks on the AK. Period.
I can't charge the weapon while shouldered like you can with the AR15, and the bolt does not hold open on an empty magazine making quick reloads difficult.
The sight radius is poor, and I had trouble getting good hits with the AK. This may be my fault for not spending enough time with it. I also had trouble getting a fast sight picture with it, and dislike the hooded front sight.
Recoil hindered my follow up shots. I may have been spoiled by the AR-15s recoil system, so call me a wuss if you want. I am 6'00 and 240lbs, and I was shooting with a good stance and still had lots of trouble with it.
The gun was very reliable, not one malfunction in the 150rds that have been fired through it. I know the previous owner personally and he fired 10rds thru it and I fed it another 140 myself without issue.
I just can not force myself to like the weapon. I wish I would have shot it before I dropped the money on furniture, trigger, ammo, and mags, I would have saved some work and money. I guess I should probably keep it with the pending legislation, but I doubt I will shoot it again. One more gun destined for the back of the safe.....
I can understand your frustration but an AK class with Larry Vickers or Pat Rogers may well change your opinion on running the gun.
In an effort to be open minded and learn something here....
My SA-85M does not have a threaded barrel or any muzzle device. I wonder if a good brake or flash supressor with a closed bottom would increase my follow up shot times, and reduce the recoil.
I think the rear sight being further away from my eye may be a problem as well. My vision is not the best as-is anyway. Maybe a Mojo rear sight, with the XS 24/7 front would solve that problem.
I guess it comes down to this big question.....
Do I want to keep modifying the rifle to try and solve my personal issues, or should I just trade it for another M4 and be done with it before I put even more money into it.
Thanks for your time, I guess I will sleep on it.
I have AR and AK. I find that they are two totally different animals.
If you evaluate them on their own merrits, they are both OK.
As for AK issues. I don't like the sights. When moving fast, I shoot it high.
As far as AK recoil, although I notice the difference, it doesn't bother me. I write it off as more terminal performance. I have shot a deer with a 7.62x39, I was very happy. I am sure the 5.56 can take a deer, but the 7.62 was very effective.
Jay Cunningham
06-09-07, 21:33
In an effort to be open minded and learn something here....
My SA-85M does not have a threaded barrel or any muzzle device. I wonder if a good brake or flash supressor with a closed bottom would increase my follow up shot times, and reduce the recoil.
I think the rear sight being further away from my eye may be a problem as well. My vision is not the best as-is anyway. Maybe a Mojo rear sight, with the XS 24/7 front would solve that problem.
I guess it comes down to this big question.....
Do I want to keep modifying the rifle to try and solve my personal issues, or should I just trade it for another M4 and be done with it before I put even more money into it.
Thanks for your time, I guess I will sleep on it.
I guess I must ask you, do you modify your M4 to suit your needs or do you leave it bone stock?
Opie, Snake RAH is dead on - IT'S NOT AN M4. Once you get past that hurdle and learn how to run it like an AK, you might actually LIKE it.
I was pretty much of the same opinion about AK's up until a month or so ago, but I emptied my mind, so to speak, and did some research and asked around about how to run an AK like an AK. Once I did that, I was amazed at how effective it can be. I still can't shoot as accurately with its irons as I can with an Aimpoint/M4, and I still can't reload it as fast as an M4... But I'm only about 1 second slower in drills that include a reload and I'm plenty "combat accurate" inside 100m. I still like the M4 better, but I feel pretty confident with an AK now.
The trick is to forget everything you know about M4's beyond sight alignment and trigger control. Once I did that, I actually found it kinda fun to learn how to run a new system.
As far as AK recoil, although I notice the difference, it doesn't bother me. I write it off as more terminal performance.
If only that were true.
disconnector
06-10-07, 08:52
Opie, Snake RAH is dead on - IT'S NOT AN M4. Once you get past that hurdle and learn how to run it like an AK, you might actually LIKE it.
I was pretty much of the same opinion about AK's up until a month or so ago, but I emptied my mind, so to speak, and did some research and asked around about how to run an AK like an AK. Once I did that, I was amazed at how effective it can be. I still can't shoot as accurately with its irons as I can with an Aimpoint/M4, and I still can't reload it as fast as an M4... But I'm only about 1 second slower in drills that include a reload and I'm plenty "combat accurate" inside 100m. I still like the M4 better, but I feel pretty confident with an AK now.
The trick is to forget everything you know about M4's beyond sight alignment and trigger control. Once I did that, I actually found it kinda fun to learn how to run a new system.
As for optics, try a Kobra sight on your AK.
In typical Sov fashion it is not "elegant" but it is brutally tough. Plus the 4 different reticles are extremely useful.
On the negative side it is heavy and the "chin-weld" sucks.
You can also get a railed gastube to put an Aimpoint or Eotech on, but I would worry about the extreme heat.
Personally, I find the post and notch sights to actually be MORE accurate for me than the aperture sights on the M4. I grew up with a .22 that I shot constantly and the AK sights are pretty much just like them. On the downside, they are considerably slower in my hands.
YMMV,
Disconnector
disconnector
06-10-07, 08:53
If only that were true.
Buy a 5.45 and forget about recoil all together.
In a true "survival" situation, the 7.62 would be a more useful hunting tool though. 30 rounds of 30-30 performance is a useful thing.
Disconnector
Bulldog1967
06-10-07, 11:04
Yes, the AK sights DO suck.
Fortunately, there are manufacturers like Ultimak who have solved this weakness with a great way to mount a red dot in a scout configuration.
http://www.theothersideofkim.com/images/uploads/SAR-1newscope01.jpg
Yes, the AK sights DO suck.
No no. Not just the sights. Everything sucks about the AK except for it's reputation as a gun that will go bang every time. Mag changes are slower, the ergonomics are nearly non-existant, materials used are often of poor quality, fit and finish....but it goes bang*.
I don't like my AKs. But I know how to run them.
*unless it's an SLR-106 :D
Perhaps a review of AK terminal performance would be useful:
The 5.45 x 39 mm Russian M74 53 gr FMJ boat-tailed bullet has a copper-plated steel jacket surrounding an unhardened steel core and a small 5 mm long empty air-space under the bullet nose. Its typical muzzle velocity is 3066 f/s. In contrast to the older 7.62 x 39 mm Russian M43 Type PS which it replaced, the 5.45 x 39 mm M74 53 gr FMJ commonly exhibits very early yaw in tissue, at approximately 2.75", but no deformation or fragmentation. In both uncomplicated extremity and torso wounds, the very early yaw allows the bullet to travel sideways through the body, increasing permanent tissue destruction and temporary cavitation effects. A small punctate entrance wound is present and the exit wound may be punctate, oblong, or stellate depending on the bullet yaw angle on exit. Penetration is approximately 21.6”. 5.45 x 39 mm M74 is a lot like an early yawing 5.56 mm bullet that does not fragment--for example M995, but without the AP capability. Well designed fragmenting 5.56 mm bullets, like the Hornady 75 gr or Nosler 77 gr OTM’s, that consistently offer early upset in tissue are superior to 5.45 x 39 mm. I am unaware of any good terminal ballistic testing on commercial 5.45 x 39 mm loads.
In discussing 7.62x39 mm FMJ, the question is always which one, as their characteristics are highly variable.
In fact, there is a bit of a controversy brewing in some of the AAR’s coming in from OCONUS on the effectiveness of 7.62 x 39 mm ammunition. Initially, this appears somewhat strange, as there may be more forensic data available regarding wounds caused by the Russian 7.62 x 39 mm FMJ than for any other rifle cartridge. The original 7.62 x 39 mm Russian M43 Type PS 120.5 gr FMJ boat-tail bullet has a copper-plated steel jacket covering a large steel core and a typical muzzle velocity of 2340 f/s. In tissue, it typically travels approximately 9.8 to 10.6" point forward before beginning significant yaw. Most uncomplicated wounds of the torso and extremities have small punctate entrance and exit wounds and exhibit minimal internal tissue disruption since the bullet does not deform or fragment and usually exits before yaw occurs. Total penetration is around 29.1”. WDMET (Wound Data and Munitions Effectiveness Team) collected extensive forensic data on over 700 7.62 x 39 mm gunshot wounds during the Viet Nam war. The predominant feature of this cartridge is the MINIMAL amount of damage it produces in soft tissue wounds, on par with FMJ handgun wounds such as those produced by 9 mm M882 ball. We also have extensive law enforcement data, as this cartridge has been used extensively in illicit activity. For example, in the 17 January 1988 Stockton school shooting, 30 of 35 kids who were shot lived. Of the five that died, all were shot in critical structure--head, heart, spine, aorta and none had damage to any organ not directly hit by a bullet.
However, not all 7.62 x 39 mm FMJ bullets are of the original steel core construction. Significantly increased tissue damage is produced by the early yaw seen with several 7.62 x 39 mm FMJ lead core bullets, including:
-- Yugoslavian M67 124 gr FMJ, flat based, copper-jacketed, lead core bullet which travels only 3.5" in tissue before yawing
-- Chinese (PRC) 7.62 x 39 mm 123 gr FMJ, copper-jacketed, lead core bullets which begin their yaw after only 2 to 2.5" of travel in tissue.
-- Czech and several types of Western commercially produced lead core 7.62 x 39 mm FMJ yaw within the first 2 to 3 inches of travel in tissue.
In both uncomplicated extremity and torso wounds, the very early yaw of these lead core 7.62 x 39 mm FMJ bullets allow the projectiles to travel sideways through the body, substantially increasing permanent tissue destruction and temporary cavitation effects compared to the standard 7.62 x 39 mm Russian M43 Type PS 120.5 gr FMJ. These early yawing lead core 7.62 x 39 mm FMJ bullets cause wounds very similar to the 5.45 x 39 mm Russian M74 53 gr FMJ bullets discussed above, however, the larger size of the 7.62 x 39 mm bullets results in a bigger permanent cavity compared to 5.45 x 39 mm bullets.
The differences in terminal effects seen in recent combat with 7.62 x 39 mm FMJ wounds can likely be explained by the different terminal effects caused by the various types of FMJ construction.
When one moves to a expanding/fragmenting design in 7.62 x 39 mm, terminal performance is significantly enhanced. The best 7.62 x 39 mm loads we have tested to date are the Winchester 123 gr JSP (X76239) and the Lapua 125 gr JSP. Out of a 16” barrel they perform somewhat like lightweight .30-30 loads:
Lap 125 gr JSP
Bare Gelatin: vel=2316 f/s, pen=17.3”, RD=.62”, RL=.43”, RW=122.6 gr
Car Windshield: vel=2323 f/s, pen=14.8”, RD=.60”, RL=.40”, RW=110.6 gr
Win 123 gr JSP
Bare Gel: vel=2253 f/s, pen=14.4”, rd=0.56”, rw=90.1gr
Pretty much the same results when going through car windshields.
Of note, most of the “cheap” Russian JHP/JSP ammunition offers poor terminal performance. The one that seems to work is the 7.62x39mm Saspan 124 gr JHP (Ulyanovsk Machinery Plant; 8M3 bullet); from a 16” AKMS the data is:
BG: vel=2297 f/s, pen=15.0”, Max TC=10cm@18cm, RD=0.63”, RW=100.5gr"
Because of the larger permanent cavity and greater bullet mass, the 7.62 x 39 mm JSP’s offer somewhat better performance than the .223 bonded JSP’s, like the Trophy Bonded Bearclaw used in the Federal Tactical loads. These 7.62 x 39 mm JSP loads are a good choice for use against car windows and should also be outstanding for hunting deer and other similar size game.
In a CQB setting, the expanding 7.62 x 39 mm bullets tend to retain their mass and are very likely to exit target. As long as a 5.56 mm FMJ or OTM upset in tissue, they are unlikely to exit the torso; likewise, 6.8 mm TMJ, OTM and PT will fragment and are unlikely to exit the torso. All will work, although I would prefer the 6.8 mm for this settting. While 7.62 x 39 mm has the potential to offer good terminal performance when using well engineered ammunition and it offers better intermediate barrier penetration than 5.56 mm, 6.8 mm is generally more accurate, flatter shooting, longer ranged, and demonstrates better terminal performance than all 5.45 x 39 mm, 5.56 mm and 7.62 x 39 mm.
http://www.tridentconcepts.com/alumni/Portals/0/NTForums_Attach/1424142848471.jpg
Bulldog1967
06-10-07, 14:39
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBafWG6vvyM
Lots of great info and advice here Opie.
As far as the safety, it does what it was designed to do, it keeps crap out of the action when on safe, and it can be manipulated by some Soviet conscript stationed in Siberia wearing mittens....
But, yes, it does suck for fast manipulation. The Blackjack SWIFT levers are great, and I can work them as fast as I can an AR safety, with my hand on the pistol grip.
GotM4 has one on his SLR-106FR:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20AK%20Class/VTAKROBB.jpg
The rear sights might hinder guys who grew up shooting apeture style sights, but I grew up shooting AK's, it's just what you're used to. If you put an UltiMak gas tube on your rifle you can then mount a decent optic.
If you thread the muzzle for a 14/1mm LH thread, you can install an AK-74 style brake, but one designed for 7.62mm projectiles, and it will significantly cut down on your reaction time and felt recoil.
Again, it's all what you're used to. Get some more trigger time on the rifle and it might grow on you.
If you thread the muzzle for a 14/1mm LH thread, you can install an AK-74 style brake, but one designed for 7.62mm projectiles, and it will significantly cut down on your reaction time and felt recoil....
Hey Templar,
What's a decent '74 type brake for a 7.62mm? Some of them look kinda junky in the pics I've seen on the net. I'm debating between a M16A1 FS or a '74 type brake on my SAR-1 - Any suggestions?
thanks.
Hey Templar,
What's a decent '74 type brake for a 7.62mm? Some of them look kinda junky in the pics I've seen on the net. I'm debating between a M16A1 FS or a '74 type brake on my SAR-1 - Any suggestions?
thanks.
You'll need this adapter to go from 14/1mmLH threads to a 24mm RH thread of the '74....
http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=16256&cat=272&page=1
And then you can use the brake/fh that Noveske based/ripped off from the Bulgarians.....
http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=16349&cat=289&page=1
Chris Butler makes a clone of the Russian 7.62x39mm AK-103 brake that is sold through RPB....
http://www.ak-103.com/parts.html
Hope that helps.
Thanks Templar! I already have an M16A1 FS, but that 103 brake looks like it might feel better. Do those '74 style brakes do anything at all to reduce flash?
Thanks Templar! I already have an M16A1 FS, but that 103 brake looks like it might feel better. Do those '74 style brakes do anything at all to reduce flash?
Unfotunately, no they don't.
You might also want to try the brakes from AK Concepts/Primary Weapon Systems....they are extremely effective.
http://www.primaryweapons.com/default.asp
Jay Cunningham
06-12-07, 08:07
Tim,
Have you heard anything from the PMC guy (the one I kept calling Val Kilmer)? I remembered that you gave him that brake/comp thing to try out in the desert.
I can understand your frustration but an AK class with Larry Vickers or Pat Rogers may well change your opinion on running the gun.
I would have to agree with Thekatar. Try taking an AK specific class from a trainer you trust. It certianly changed my opinion on the AK.
There are also a few products that make the AK easier to run:
- SWIFT safety lever- Makes all the difference in the world.
- Ultimak (For now) but something else is in the works - this gives you the advantage of a modern red dot optic that co-witnesses.
- Blue Force Gear / Vickers Tactical two-point sling - Makes life a lot easier.
Tim,
Have you heard anything from the PMC guy (the one I kept calling Val Kilmer)? I remembered that you gave him that brake/comp thing to try out in the desert.
Nope, I haven't. I hope he's using it in good health.
The AK is a solid platform as long as you accept that it is not an M4. The SWIFT lever, a modern 2 pt sling and a little file work to open up the rear sight notch make a huge difference. Unfortunately, the SWIFT lever is out of production. Hopefully someone will pick up the design as it is great and makes the safety as fast as an M4's.
shooter521
06-12-07, 12:46
- Ultimak (For now) but something else is in the works
Are you talking about the Krebs hinged top cover rail, or yet another option? If the latter, what can you spill? :D
Are you talking about the Krebs hinged top cover rail, or yet another option? If the latter, what can you spill? :D
Nope, somethng different, and I think better, but no spillin' da beans just yet. :cool:
Are you talking about the Krebs hinged top cover rail, or yet another option? If the latter, what can you spill? :D
Templar's 100% correct as usual.
This is 100% new. Trust me, you will like it.
Give me a month or two and I will tell you everything. :)
Jay Cunningham
06-12-07, 14:18
Templar's 100% correct as usual.
This is 100% new. Trust me, you will like it.
Give me a month or two and I will tell you everything. :)
I know but I ain't tellin.
Suffice to say, it sounds pretty darn good.
Bulldog1967
06-12-07, 14:45
Templar's 100% correct as usual.
This is 100% new. Trust me, you will like it.
Give me a month or two and I will tell you everything. :)
Damn you Paul! :eek: :D
I cannot see the SWIFT lever sitting on the shelf for too long. With soooo many bad AK products on the market somebody is sure to jump on the SWIFT and get it back on the market. It's just too good of a product and Blackjack will regret leaving their front door wide open for this long.
It is far superior to the higher priced Krebs.
I tried an AK several years ago and while I wanted to like it, I just never did. I bought an Arsenal USA AK for a very good price. My version of an impulse buy.
The ergonomics did not suit me. Being left handed didn't really help as the saftely never felt right to me. I also had some trouble with the rear sight. Guess I'm too accustomed to peep sights. I tried a Mojo rear sight but just couldn't get used to it, I think it was because it was too far from my eye. The gun shot well, was totally reliable and never stumbled in the 2 years I owned it.
I ultimately traded it for an M-4 clone, which with my familiarity with the AR system made a better fit for me. I appreciate the AK and what it offers, it just wasn't for me.
GastonG-NoVa
06-16-07, 22:07
You may want to think about getting a peep sight for your AK. I haven't seen one in person, but the pics look pretty good on them.
Does anyone have any thoughts....info....or pics of the peep sights that are available.
Lastly, this thread has had some very good info on the AK, so thanks for the info fellas!!!!
DocGKR, thanks for the great information on AK terminal performance.
You may want to think about getting a peep sight for your AK. I haven't seen one in person, but the pics look pretty good on them.
Does anyone have any thoughts....info....or pics of the peep sights that are available.
Lastly, this thread has had some very good info on the AK, so thanks for the info fellas!!!!
My buddy used a Mojo on his SLR-106FR at the 2nd Vickers AK class.
My thoughts.....it appears to be flimsy and not nearly as robust as what I'd like to see on an AK, but he shot very well with it and it worked for him. He's been trained on the AR system exclusively up to this point.
Who had the Krebs sight in the 1st AK class? Was it on LAV's KTR-03?
Who had the Krebs sight in the 1st AK class? Was it on LAV's KTR-03?
The KTR had straight up AR style sights. Chris had a Williams peep on his SLR, but I didn't see anyone else with a peep style sight.
The KTR had straight up AR style sights. Chris had a Williams peep on his SLR, but I didn't see anyone else with a peep style sight.
10-4, I think it was Heavy Metal.
He had a Krebs adjustable on his back-up AK.
CarlosDJackal
06-17-07, 08:39
Any comments on this AK mag change?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RgH6tHgyvY
Not a fast mag change but an interesting technique:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJubY_7sowU&mode=related&search=
Interesting comparison between the AK and the AR:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6BpI3xD6h0&mode=related&search=
Robb Jensen
06-17-07, 09:09
Any comments on this AK mag change?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RgH6tHgyvY
Not a fast mag change but an interesting technique:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJubY_7sowU&mode=related&search=
Interesting comparison between the AK and the AR:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6BpI3xD6h0&mode=related&search=
The first guy with the ninja mask seems to have a ton of wasted motion, not really smooth at all. I guess it's 'a way'. I've seen the 2nd type of reload used but it can also be easily messed up and can waste a lot of time.
The way I reload an AK is:
I slide my support hand backward from the handguard and remove the empty mag (drop it to the ground or to a dump pouch), then reach for the reload and get it into the rifle. If the rifle has run dry I will cant the rifle 90 degrees to my left (I'm right handed) and use my support hand to rack the bolt coming across the top of the AK (now horizontal) and then 'let it eat'.
AKs that aren't 'shot out' or in terrible condition are much more accurate than many give them credit for being. With iron sights they are much harder to shoot when compared to an AR/FAL etc. Put an optic on it and you'll be very amazed at what they can do.
oldcrusty72
06-17-07, 10:41
This is an alternate method for quick mag changes for AK, it takes a bit of practicing to rid yourself of previous muscle memory but takes a couple of movements out of the process. I hope i can explain it properly.
When using your left hand to pull back the action you need to reach under or over the rifle. If you use your right hand you don't. The other issue as has been said already is that the parts won't stay to the rear on an empty mag. There are however a few mags around that will lock back on becoming empty, but as soon as you remove the mag will release the parts forward bringing you back to square one.
New method.
On any stopage pull back the working parts with the right hand. this will put the rifle in a position to see inside for the cause of the stopage. Despite the type of stopage, with the working parts pulled rearward, lock your thumb around the back of the dust cover to hold the parts rearward. You should be able to hold the rifle with on hand in this postion.
With your left hand remove the magazine, then either clear your obstruction and replace the mag, or in the case of an empty mag remove it and replace with a full one. Then all you need to do is release your working parts and crack on.
This will take out a couple of movements from cocking, releasing, changing mag or clearing obstruction, then recocking. It also stops you from having to reach around the rifle to fix the problem.
This will work for for right handed shooters, lefties can just use their right hand anyhow, but still will need to recock after putting a mag back on.
I'm not sure if the safety from an M21 can be modded to fit into an AK but might be worth a look. A small peice of 550 cord around the Safety in a loop is something else i've seen guys doing to help out. What most of the local guys will do is run without a round in the chamber but the safety off, it's quicker to cock and shoot than to mess around with the saftey. I wouldn't really recomend this method though unless your experience level lets you. Then again i wouldn't recomend an AK either, but thats a personal choice.
I hope this helps, if not it'll keep you amused for a while trying it out.
And Yeah if the way i've explained this drill dosn't make sense let me know i'll redo it with pics. This is something i use for some of our local guys that can't get thier drills sorted out using "western teachings",
Tim
Wow, that guy in the 1st video was DAMN fast. Even if he was just going through the motions on some it - sacrificing for pure speed.
Decided to keep it. I am ordering an Ultimak, Aimpoint, and having the barrel threaded to get that muzzle rise down.
Any recommendations on the best brake for 7.62?
Decided to keep it. I am ordering an Ultimak, Aimpoint, and having the barrel threaded to get that muzzle rise down.
Any recommendations on the best brake for 7.62?
AK concepts makes a very, very effective brake that goes on 14/1mm lh threads....check out the AK picture thread, GotM4 just posted pics of his Romanian SAR-1 with an AK Concepts brake attached.
Glad you decided to keep it!
Here's another video that's kinda interesting -
http://s140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/combatcamera4671/?action=view¤t=TacticalMagazineChange.flv
Though I agree with gotm4 that using the new mag to knock out the old one can be easily screwed up... at least by me. I use my thumb, throw out the old, then reach for the new.
filthy phil
06-21-07, 13:30
Hey its not for everyone.
You have to evaluate what works for you and go with that.
For me, my AK(s) are my "go-to" guns.
thats right.
you wanna shoot thru walls. ceilings, floors, cars, etc? the ak is beta. the round wont defleft like a 223. (see the box-o-truth for proof. they shoot thru simple sheetrock and the round deflects)
you wanna varmit hunt, target shoot, the ar is the gun. also the 223 (lighter rounds) dosent overpenetrate indoors as much as a 7.62, making it a more viable indoor sd round. the ak is likely to zing thru outer walls and into the neighbors house
Sorry, I'm a little late to the party!
As you know, the AK differs from the M 16 in many ways, its a great tool if you can get past it not being an AR.
I'm getting old, my eye sight sucks, but with practice you can hold an AK on target during rapid fire.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b128/jaodom722/10-30-05533.jpg
What is this new product that some are eluding too? When is the rest of us going to find out what it is? Also, I tried an AK Concepts Brake on my SAM-7. Didn't feel or see any difference compared to a Slant Brake. Perhaps on a Stamped Rifle the results would have been different, but not so (For me) on a Milled Receiver AK. Nicely made Brake, however.
There are also a few products that make the AK easier to run:
- Ultimak (For now) but something else is in the works - this gives you the advantage of a modern red dot optic that co-witnesses.
It is not the Krebs hinged rail, nor a new system from La Rue. Enquiring minds would like to know.
Clue us in when you can...
A little training and the AK is cake. M4's are kool but more for shooting varmits than bad guys. My 2 cents.
Bulldog1967
06-25-07, 08:22
A little training and the AK is cake. M4's are kool but more for shooting varmits than bad guys. My 2 cents.
Okay, I'm probably one of the BIGGER AK snobs on this board, but that statement just smacks of total an utter BULLSHIT.
Our men and women overseas are protecting out country with the M4 and have sent many a wayward haji southward with that little "mouse gun".
My God.
:rolleyes:
This is 100% new. Trust me, you will like it.
Give me a month or two and I will tell you everything. :)
Not that we are counting days, but it has been 5 weeks. How about spilling the beans now, about the new product?
Could it be La Rue's New A.K. side mounted red dot mount?:confused:
Okay, I'm probably one of the BIGGER AK snobs on this board, but that statement just smacks of total an utter BULLSHIT.
Our men and women overseas are protecting out country with the M4 and have sent many a wayward haji southward with that little "mouse gun".
My God.
:rolleyes:
You are correct sir.
A lot of the points you made have been addressed by other members, but here is my take on them. I actually had the same seemingly terminal problems with the AK when I got my first one, so you're not alone.
This will be long winded, but bear with me.
AK's have selectors, not safeties. The rest of the world puts the selector on something other than safe when they think they could potentially be shooting. They don't over manipulate the selector. Your trigger finger and brain would be your two primary safeties.
The rifle's design was directed by a combat veteran for reliability, effectiveness and ruggedness. The design process kicked into high gear in 1946, so the rifle still has a lot of "WWII baggage" that nobody has really taken the effort to improve in a cost effective manner.
Two good improvements that are readily available are Flash Suppressors/Compensators, and pistol grips. Combloc style synthetic pistol grips are universally the worst for the weapon in terms of control. The Bulgarians make a nice grip called the ARM9, which is available through K-var. SAW style grips are a good deal too, as are Yugo and Galil style grips. The synthetic stocks come in M16A1 and "warsaw" pact lengths, which is a matter of personal preference.
M16 flash suppressors are a big improvement on the AK. I think you mentioned you had one and it didn't work as good as you'd like, which is OK as there are better suppressors. I'd stay away from compensators, as a flash suppressor will always do some compensation. One of the best muzzle devices I've found for the AK (best in terms of recoil/flash reduction) is the Bulgarian 24mm device. Blackjack buffers has a US copy. I think the FEG would need a 24mm adapter though.
http://www.blackjackbuffers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=76&products_id=475
If you haven't installed the M16 flash suppressor on the FEG yet, I'd try your luck with that. My KTR-03 has an A2 device and it has practically no muzzle flip. The SA-M7 Carbine I have has a Bulgarian style 24mm device, and it stays pretty much stagnant. Suarez sells a M-16 like device, which seemed like it did as good of a job on the stock AKM's he had at the class as my KTR-03 does normally.
http://www.onesourcetactical.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=713
Anyhow, mag changes are pretty easy with an AK. Suarez's method seems to work best. Basically you get rid of the spent mag, grab a fresh one more or less like a soda can at the bottom (so you can control placement), angle the rifle slightly up and rotate about 45 degrees to the side, and insert the fresh magazine. Charge the rifle by reaching underneath.
Here's a video of Gabe doing it. Not exactly DIVX video quality, but you'll get the point. Angling the rifle up keeps your head more or less level with the horizon during the mag change.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBafWG6vvyM
Another thing that helps is to shoot the crap out of the rifles in their standard configuration. Or just shoot the crap out of AK's period. AK's have a very hard initial learning curve. It's all basically recoil/flip related. It seems like you're shooting more gun than the AK actually is because of the abrupt recoil and muzzle flip. I think we as Americans have been trained that if the recoil is sudden and the gun jumps upward, we just shot an elephant gun with enormous recoil.
There isn't that much energy coming back at you with an AK.
You should be able to make the same hits with an AK at the same ranges you can kill with an AR-15. There aren't a whole lot of people that dispute that 7.62x39 works very well against humans, animals, wood, and cement related products.
There probably aren't too many people that rail more against manufacturers not doing enough for the AK as much as me, but believe me when I tell you that you can get as good with an AK as an M4 if you put the trigger time in and don't treat the AK like an M4. The stock configuration, combloc AK for various reasons has become the most used, most adopted, most iconic, best liked rifle in the world. People might not like the fact this occurred, or like the AK, but this is what happened over the last 50 years. I'd invest the time to get good with it, even if you can't stand being in the same room with an AK. I don't own glocks, and I'm kind of non-committal on liking them, but I can certainly use them.
Virtually everyone has said the AK and M4 aren't similar rifles and shouldn't be treated as such. And it can't be repeated enough. You can set up any rifle to fail a multitude of arbitrary tests if you know exactly what it sucks at doing. The military did this for some time with the AR-15.
Good luck,
-aurang
This is the second time I tried to shoot the AK, and I am unimpressed to say the least. I purchased the AK after reading here how the Hungarian SA-85Ms were some of the better built AKs currently on the market, so when I found a 100% FEG built post-ban I grabbed it up. I added a K-Var warsaw furniture kit, Tapco G2 trigger group to get it in compliance, and a nice Specter 3 point sling. I then ordered up 1000rds of Golden Tiger to feed it.
From todays range trip I decided the following....
The safety location sucks on the AK. Period.
I can't charge the weapon while shouldered like you can with the AR15, and the bolt does not hold open on an empty magazine making quick reloads difficult.
The sight radius is poor, and I had trouble getting good hits with the AK. This may be my fault for not spending enough time with it. I also had trouble getting a fast sight picture with it, and dislike the hooded front sight.
Recoil hindered my follow up shots. I may have been spoiled by the AR-15s recoil system, so call me a wuss if you want. I am 6'00 and 240lbs, and I was shooting with a good stance and still had lots of trouble with it.
The gun was very reliable, not one malfunction in the 150rds that have been fired through it. I know the previous owner personally and he fired 10rds thru it and I fed it another 140 myself without issue.
I just can not force myself to like the weapon. I wish I would have shot it before I dropped the money on furniture, trigger, ammo, and mags, I would have saved some work and money. I guess I should probably keep it with the pending legislation, but I doubt I will shoot it again. One more gun destined for the back of the safe.....
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