View Full Version : Former Army officer, West Point&Duke grad shot by police
Littlelebowski
07-12-10, 14:49
Facts are rolling in. What we do know is that he was shopping at Costco with his GF, was made for carrying a concealed handgun by a Costco clerk, and said clerk called the cops on him for carrying a weapon and "destroying merchandise."
Cops are claiming he drew on them and pointed the weapon. Most other accounts are saying that he lifted his shirt to comply and disarm and got shot.
He's dead. Dude was a West Point graduate (US Army officer), tank platoon commander, holder of a Master's degree from Duke, and now a medical device salesman (pacemakers). Apparently he was shopping for supplements with his girlfriend.
SUMMERLIN COSTCO STORE: Slaying of Army veteran shocks friends Man shot by police was West Point grad (http://www.lvrj.com/news/slaying-of-army-veteran-shocks-friends-98223884.html)
The man shot by police outside a Summerlin Costco store on Saturday was a graduate of the U.S. Military Academy at West Point with a master's degree from Duke University, friends said.
Army veteran Erik Scott, 39, was at the store near Charleston Boulevard and the Las Vegas Beltway with his girlfriend before three officers fatally shot him in a confrontation.
Friends and an attorney speaking on behalf of Scott's relatives, described him as a good man from a military family. His father was in the Air Force, and his grandfather fought in World War II, friend Mike Pusateri said.
"The most loyal, honest, trustworthy, salt-of-the-earth guy you could meet," said Pusateri, 38. "You only meet one or two of those kinds of guys in your life, and Erik is one of them."
Scott worked for Boston Scientific, a medical devices manufacturer, as a sales representative for the company's pacemakers. Attorney Ross Goodman, who represents Scott's family, said Scott was one of the company's top sales employees.
Pusateri and Goodman said Scott and his girlfriend were at the Costco because they were moving in together and wanted to buy the things they needed. The two men declined to discuss the events that led to the shooting.
According to Las Vegas police, officers were called to 801 S. Pavilion Center Drive at 12:47 p.m. by a store worker who said a man was destroying merchandise. Police were told the man had a gun.
Capt. Patrick Neville described Scott as "kind of going berserk." Workers evacuated the store. Officers stopped Scott outside as the customers were leaving.
Neville said an officer tapped the man on the shoulder and identified himself as police. Scott then spun around and reached for a gun, law enforcement officials said.
"They ordered him to the ground," Neville said of the officers on Saturday. "He does not comply with that order. He reaches for the weapon, pulls the weapon out, at which time, the weapon was out of the waistband."
Three officers fired multiple times, killing Scott.
One witness interviewed Saturday and three others interviewed Sunday by the Review-Journal gave accounts that differed from what police described.
With a few minor variations, the witnesses recounted matching sequences of events. The witnesses interviewed did not see what happened inside the store that prompted workers to call police. Three of the witnesses, upset by the event, asked that their names not be published.
Once Scott was outside, none of the witnesses saw him brandish a weapon or make any movement that would seem like he was brandishing a weapon.
The first witness already had made his purchases and was waiting in line for a worker to check his receipt when he saw an officer enter the store. The officer whispered something to the worker checking the receipts. The first witness then heard that employee turn to another employee and say, "He said we should let him through."
The four witnesses described a calm rush of customers exiting the front of the store after Costco workers told everyone to leave.
Attorney David Amesbury said he arrived in time to see shoppers leaving. He described the customer exodus as being "like the aftermath of Disneyland."
A customer told Amesbury that he couldn't go in, so the attorney waited on a bench west of the entrance. He said he had a clear view of two officers standing beside the entrance with their guns drawn.
All four witnesses said they were within 20 feet of the store's main entrance. They said Scott walked out of the entrance with the crowd.
They described an officer shouting at Scott, then a quick succession of gunshots.
The witnesses differed in their recollection of what one of the officers said.
Amesbury heard, "I told you to stop. Stop."
Two witnesses interviewed Sunday heard, "Drop it."
A fourth witness, interviewed Saturday, heard, "Get down," "Put it down," or "Get out of the way."
A second anonymous witness said Sunday he saw Scott pull up his shirt and turn toward the shouting officer. Then he saw the man get shot, drop to his knees and fall face-first in front of the entrance.
"There wasn't even time for someone to react," the second witness said. "The guy didn't pull a gun. There was no gun in his hand, there was no gun on the ground."
The second witness said he was interviewed by homicide detectives and gave them the same account.
The first anonymous witness also didn't see Scott make a threat.
"I certainly did not see the guy do anything with a gun that would threaten anybody," the first witness said Sunday. "It appeared to me that if he had guns on him, that they were literally in his pocket or in his waist."
The first witness also was interviewed by homicide detectives about the shooting.
Amesbury said he did not see the man get shot, but, "When I go around the corner, I see this guy laid out. I didn't see a gun." Amesbury's view of the shooting was blocked by stone pillars. He was not interviewed by police.
Before the shooting, Scott was walking with a woman that three witnesses thought was his girlfriend. They said she became distraught after the shooting. The incident also left the witnesses shaken.
It's just incredible "with all these people around that Metro would provoke something there," the second witness said. "I don't want to second-guess the police, but wouldn't it have been better to confront him out at his car?"
After the shooting, some people in the crowd panicked. An elderly woman was knocked down and cut her elbow in the chaos, the second witness said.
Only Scott was struck by gunfire .
Police said Scott had two handguns on him when he was shot. Goodman said Scott had a concealed-weapons permit.
Pusateri said his friend was a "safety freak" around guns. He said that "absolutely not in a million years" would Scott be careless with them around others.
Scott graduated from West Point, in New York, in 1994 and was stationed for a time at Fort Hood, Texas, as a tank platoon leader. In 2003, he graduated from Duke University in North Carolina with a master's degree in business administration.
Friends said they noticed nothing strange about Scott in the days before the shooting.
On Friday, Scott's vehicle was struck by another vehicle while he was rushing a pacemaker to Summerlin Hospital Medical Center, Pusateri said. Scott was not injured in the collision, and a firefighter took the device from the crash scene to the hospital, he said.
Friends were distraught and puzzled as to why police shot and killed Scott.
"He's a stand-up guy in the community," Goodman said. "This guy is not somebody to put himself in a situation like that."
Pusateri, who also sells medical devices, said Scott worked closely with patients in his job. He called Scott's job the "pinnacle" of the business.
"It's very, very sad," Pusateri said. "I'm shocked by it. It's the tragic loss of a great man."
The fact that it happened at a Costco would suggest that there is some video footage of the incident.
Wow... thats just sad.
Its hard to make a good judgement because the witnesses stories to vary somewhat, but seems to me like the cops are to blaim on this one.
Trigger happy much...
Very sad.
Nathan_Bell
07-12-10, 15:27
The fact that it happened at a Costco would suggest that there is some video footage of the incident.
Aye. If anything like Wally World they probably have enough coverage to cover the entire time he was on the property
Thus, the true sequence of events should be along shortly.
Wow... thats just sad.
Its hard to make a good judgement because the witnesses stories to vary somewhat, but seems to me like the cops are to blaim on this one.
Trigger happy much...
Very sad.
news accounts are rarely accurate, and first accounts never are. it could very well have, and probably did, happen totally different than this article is presenting.
all we can do is wait for facts.
John_Wayne777
07-12-10, 15:40
An eminently sane view, BKB.
Aye. If anything like Wally World they probably have enough coverage to cover the entire time he was on the property
With numerous angles.
Littlelebowski
07-12-10, 15:50
His cousin posted in the comments:
I just found on that this WAS my cousin who was shot! He was a West Point Graduate, never been in trouble, was an officer in the Army, and had a concealed weapons permit in Nevada. The story I’ve heard from friends of his girlfriend have told us that a store clerk saw that he had a concealed gun, told him he couldn’t have it in the store. He replied, “sure I can I have a concealed weapons permit”. The clerk apparently overreacted and called the police that he was some kind of crazy person which ended up in over hyped police that shot him while he was trying to comply by taking his gun out of his shirt to place on the ground as they asked as he was leaving the store. Please anyone who was at the scene and witnessed any of this tragedy please contact me at robert@lavelock.com we may need your help.
Trigger happy much...
Much of Vegas Metro is. Open carry is legal in Nevada as well as concealed with a permit so I'm not sure how this could've escalated into such a bad situation so quickly. The video of the events should prove to be interesting.
I hope his family is coping well with their loss, definitely a tragedy to lose one of the good guys.
News video: http://www.mynews3.com/story.php?id=22410&n=5037
RogerinTPA
07-12-10, 16:30
His cousin posted in the comments:
God Damn store clerk started this shit, wow! Sounds like an over reaction by both the clerk and LEOs. Which goes to show that if you are in possession of a CC Permit, you need to make sure in all circumstances, that you are truly concealed, least some dumb ass clerk will set you up to get killed.
Many people who claim to be witnesses in the comments section below, http://www.8newsnow.com/global/story.asp?s=12785291, contradict the news article and the police report.
makes me wonder these days its tough I imagine being a officer cause you get these calls of a crazy man with a gun ? if thats the case and they think it is ?
these days to many idiots like this guy at costco(maybe) thought it was OK to make a call like this ?
somehow they have to have a new aproach on calls and make the caller have some responsibility of calling in false calls
my brother is a prosecutor and has some stories !
people get pissed at people and call in things that are not true ?
sad very sad
I think this has put a new thought in my head if I get confronted ever at a store for having a gun (yes never let it show first) but if it happens and a clerk sees it or anyone and says something to me I might first say fine lets go talk to the manager about this !!!!
most managers I dont think are going to take the side of the sales person if they do say fine and call the police myself and tell them the situation
The_Biased_Observer
07-12-10, 17:06
......You get a radio call of a man with a gun at Costco destroying merchandise. You ask your dispatch for more information, like does the man have the gun out or is he simply carrying a gun in a holster? Dispatch says, no further information, but the caller sounded "scared".
You roll up, order the store cleared and see a man matching the description given to you by dispatch, exiting with the rest of the customers. You challenge him, based upon your limited information and order him to the ground, covering him with your pistol in the event he is the crazed lunatic destroying stuff in the store and somehow displaying a gun in the process. Instead of going to the ground he quickly moves, lifts a shirt exposing a gun and begins to reach for it........
Or maybe he was tapped on the shoulder and asked if he was armed, and instead of saying yes and remaining still he did what so many people do in these encounters* and lifted the shirt to show the cops, and it was taken as an aggressive move.
*It is simply amazing to me the amount of people who, when asked if they are armed (knives, guns, etc), will make it their first movement after saying yes is to reach into their pockets or wherever they are carrying in order to display it. I've encountered it so many times that I know begin by saying to them, "if you are don't reach for it, but are you carrying any weapons?".
It is a shame any way it went down, for all intents is sounds like this man was a pretty good guy.
Irish -- what are NV laws on CCW in a place of public accommodation like a business such as Costco?
Guys, I'm positive the police officers that arrived at this Costco did NOT know this guys background or achievements. It certainly sounds like a bad deal but we don't know the facts regardless of what's been posted. There are at least five sides to this story that will need to be put together before we’ll know what happened.
Let's not turn this into a "trigger happy cop" thread.
You roll up, order the store cleared and see a man matching the description given to you by dispatch, exiting with the rest of the customers. You challenge him, based upon your limited information and order him to the ground, covering him with your pistol in the event he is the crazed lunatic destroying stuff in the store and somehow displaying a gun in the process.
OR
you roll up and wonder why if a crazed man at Costco was brandishing a firearm you did not get a ton of other calls ?
so you make sure you get ahold of the store manager or have someone doing it while you are responding rather than just evacuating the store ? did they confirm things first ?
also you realize when he is walking out he is just like everyone else girlfriend at his side nobody is staring at him etc.. and realize that maybe the person who reported has a beef with him and just approach him and ask him what's up
if the guy was out of control I think the manager and others would have been calling in not just one clerk ? if I saw a guy brandishing a firearm at costco I would be calling the police and clearing out
maybe in the future as soon as a call like this comes in from a large store they immediately get ahold of managers at the store to confirm what's really going on
Littlelebowski
07-12-10, 17:17
Guys, I'm positive the police officers that arrived at this Costco did NOT know this guys background or achievements. It certainly sounds like a bad deal but we don't know the facts regardless of what's been posted. There are at least five sides to this story that will need to be put together before we’ll know what happened.
Let's not turn this into a "trigger happy cop" thread.
Agreed and seconded.
OR
you roll up and wonder why if a crazed man at Costco was brandishing a firearm you did not get a ton of other calls ?
so you make sure you get ahold of the store manager or have someone doing it while you are responding rather than just evacuating the store ? did they confirm things first ?
also you realize when he is walking out he is just like everyone else girlfriend at his side nobody is staring at him etc.. and realize that maybe the person who reported has a beef with him and just approach him and ask him what's up
if the guy was out of control I think the manager and others would have been calling in not just one clerk ? if I saw a guy brandishing a firearm at costco I would be calling the police and clearing out
maybe in the future as soon as a call like this comes in from a large store they immediately get ahold of managers at the store to confirm what's really going on
Honu, are you a police officer or in law enforcement?
Thomas M-4
07-12-10, 17:21
Many people who claim to be witnesses in the comments section below, http://www.8newsnow.com/global/story.asp?s=12785291, contradict the news article and the police report.
Sad and disheartening reading those accounts from the witnesses.
has one of the posters said he believed the man was just lifting his shirt to show compliance to the officer and they gunned him down :mad:
I have seen people that react the same way that the cosco employee is reported to have. Beware these people are totally f*cking ignorant.
Irish -- what are NV laws on CCW in a place of public accommodation like a business such as Costco?
You'll have to be more specific but I think you mean when is it illegal. If that's your question the business must have a No Guns sign posted at EVERY entrance to the establishment. If in fact they had a problem all they have to do is ask you to leave and you must do so by law, whether CC or OC.
I won't condemn the officers as I'm sure they did what they thought was best at the time but from the reports it seems like they handled this in an overzealous manner considering OC is completely legal here.
When I was waiting for my CC permit to get approved I actually OC'ed at this Costco without any incident. It was several years ago and I know it's better to conceal but protecting my wife OC'ing is better than not at all. In a lot of states concealing without a permit is a misdemeanor but here in NV it's a felony.
You'll have to be more specific but I think you mean when is it illegal. If that's your question the business must have a No Guns sign posted at EVERY entrance to the establishment. If in fact they had a problem all they have to do is ask you to leave and you must do so by law, whether CC or OC.
You answered the question. Can they ask you to leave? etc.
Can any employee ask you to leave or does it have to be an authority figure? (supervisor, manager, etc)
(I personally don't believe that they should be allowed to ask you to leave as a "place of public accommodation" as long as the law does not allow them to ask gays, women, blacks, or whoever else to leave.)
You'll have to be more specific but I think you mean when is it illegal. If that's your question the business must have a No Guns sign posted at EVERY entrance to the establishment. If in fact they had a problem all they have to do is ask you to leave and you must do so by law, whether CC or OC.
Sounds like the laws here in Virginia.
Many people who claim to be witnesses in the comments section below, http://www.8newsnow.com/global/story.asp?s=12785291, contradict the news article and the police report.
There are some bat-shit-crazy posts on there!
Funny how after the Cambridge incident most of us here chastised the President for making a judgement before he had all the facts but in alot of these posts, the same is being done.
You answered the question. Can they ask you to leave? etc.
Can any employee ask you to leave or does it have to be an authority figure? (supervisor, manager, etc)
I'll be honest and say I don't remember for sure. I believe it must be a manager/supervisor kind of position. If you refuse to leave/comply with their request to leave and their right to have you vacate private property than you can be trespassed.
John_Wayne777
07-12-10, 18:04
If you are average joe carrying concealed and somebody from the place you are in spots your piece and makes an issue of it, I strongly suggest unassing the area ASAP, if for no other reason than it avoids the possibility of this sort of tragedy from taking place.
Honu, are you a police officer or in law enforcement?
NOPE :)
curious why you ask ?
if my post offends ? sorry wasnt meant to as I said in my previous post its tough to be LEO these days with so much misinformation and they have the toughest job around these days
I did not say it was the officers fault ? pretty sure I did not ?
I am just saying sadly cause of nuts calling in false things sadly they are going to have to be more on their toes then ever which is tough since the job is tough already ?
If you are average joe carrying concealed and somebody from the place you are in spots your piece and makes an issue of it, I strongly suggest unassing the area ASAP, if for no other reason than it avoids the possibility of this sort of tragedy from taking place.
or as I mentioned I really think if this happens I am going to ask for the manager NOW and get them their to get to the bottom and they can then ask me to leave or tell the sales guy to shut his mouth and the store then has a bit more record of what is really going on
the thing that pisses me off most about this is all this was caused by some idiot for whatever reason has a stick up his ! about guns or some other issues ? and decided by all reading so far to call in and LIE about what was really going on
SeriousStudent
07-12-10, 18:32
What a sad tragedy. Prayers sent for all those affected by this loss. :(
If there is no evidence of the Army officer doing anything illegal in the store, the clerk should be charged with murder. Same as if a cop loses control of his interceptor and runs into some poor bastard while pursuing an armed felon, charge the real criminal.
Unless the Army officer was waving that gun around like a crazed ape or pointed it at someone, those cops are in a lot of trouble, and the Las Vegas budget crises is about to get worse.
I've never seen a more adversarial relationship between cops and citizens than in any given location in Clark County. It is a regulatory sh*thole. In the Vegas area you even have people committing insurgent style suicide gunman attacks on the courthouses, sniping at DA's and judges. Crazy stuff. There are some big problems up there.
The 5 o'clock news released the 3 officer's names here locally. Nothing in print as of yet.
C'mon fellas, no reason to get this one locked down.
Like Caeser25 said, let's get the FACTS first before we demonstrate once again why I call the internet the Dramanet / Errornet.
JW777 also nailed it as far as someone 's respone to being made while CCWing. As usual some sage advice there 777, sure hope
people here will practice it.
Posts like these are generally good for CCW folks - not LEO specific, but an account of just how F'd up a situation can get. Leasons are in this story and just what is out of your control. (absolutely conceal, avoid dipshits or bring in mgrs, comply with LEO not matter what the request might sound to you, etc, etc)
I will be interested to hear some followup on this.
The witness reports are never reliable, but the variety of conflicting commands they claim to have heard is interesting.
The clerk apparently overreacted and called the police that he was some kind of crazy person which ended up in over hyped police that shot him while he was trying to comply by taking his gun out of his shirt to place on the ground as they asked as he was leaving the store.
Just speculating here at this point, but one of the nightmare scenarios for somebody who carries regularly is having the police called in a situation such as this one, then having multiple officers respond and shout different commands at you.
COP1: WHERE IS THE GUN! SHOW ME WHERE IT IS!
COP2: DON'T MOVE! DON'T MOVE!
COP3: DOWN! LAY DOWN ON THE GROUND! NOW!
I would not be surprised if this turned out to be the problem. He complies with one officer's commands but as a result does something that another officer views as non-compliant and threatening.
Just speculating here at this point, but one of the nightmare scenarios for somebody who carries regularly is having the police called in a situation such as this one, then having multiple officers respond and shout different commands at you.
COP1: WHERE IS THE GUN! SHOW ME WHERE IT IS!
COP2: DON'T MOVE! DON'T MOVE!
COP3: DOWN! LAY DOWN ON THE GROUND! NOW!
I would not be surprised if this turned out to be the problem. He complies with one officer's commands but as a result does something that another officer views as non-compliant and threatening.
i've actually put a lot of thought into this, after numerous local incidents involving law-abiding armed, as well as unarmed people getting stopped by police have made the news for various reasons.
my policy is that if i'm ever at gunpoint by cops, i'm going to put my hands in the air, turn my back to the officers, drop to my knees, and remain absolutely motionless. if i hear commands, i will simply stay still or reply with my fears if given the opportunity to speak. if i get tased- more ammo for the suin' lawer. at least i didn't get shot trying to comply.
RogerinTPA
07-12-10, 19:41
]If there is no evidence of the Army officer doing anything illegal in the store, the clerk should be charged with murder.[/COLOR] Same as if a cop loses control of his interceptor and runs into some poor bastard while pursuing an armed felon, charge the real criminal.
Unless the Army officer was waving that gun around like a crazed ape or pointed it at someone, those cops are in a lot of trouble, and the Las Vegas budget crises is about to get worse.
I've never seen a more adversarial relationship between cops and citizens than in any given location in Clark County. It is a regulatory sh*thole. In the Vegas area you even have people committing insurgent style suicide gunman attacks on the courthouses, sniping at DA's and judges. Crazy stuff. There are some big problems up there.
Agreed. If this episode is found to be a complete embellishment by the clerk, the clerk should be charged with murder.
Thomas M-4
07-12-10, 19:53
Just speculating here at this point, but one of the nightmare scenarios for somebody who carries regularly is having the police called in a situation such as this one, then having multiple officers respond and shout different commands at you.
COP1: WHERE IS THE GUN! SHOW ME WHERE IT IS!
COP2: DON'T MOVE! DON'T MOVE!
COP3: DOWN! LAY DOWN ON THE GROUND! NOW!
I would not be surprised if this turned out to be the problem. He complies with one officer's commands but as a result does something that another officer views as non-compliant and threatening.
This is how I took it from reading it.
I can very easily see after getting conflicting commands. He might have lifted his shirt to say here is the firearm I am not going to hide it trying to be compliant.
Of coarse that is a lot of speculating .
Littlelebowski
07-12-10, 20:07
Agreed. If this episode is found to be a complete embellishment by the clerk, the clerk should be charged with murder.
Prolly won't happen unfortunately.
Prolly won't happen unfortunately.
You are probably right.
Hopefully the victims family would be able to file a wrongful death suit (?)
if it's an embellishment, the clerk should be charged, but not with murder. that's taking it way too far. you cannot charge a person with a crime that equals the deliberate taking of a life for doing something that very well could have resulted in nothing more than embarrassment. he never could have known somebody was going to die, he certainly didn't intend on it.
charged, yes... some class C felony would suffice. but not murder.
i'm sort of envisioning something like this... clerk somehow burns him on the gun, says he needs to leave. he states that the building doesn't comply with NV law, if he needs to leave/etc/otherwise argues because he's been outed, is a little embarrassed/indignant... clerk insists, other employees get involved, argument ensues, cops get called, box of cereal gets tossed a few feet, denting the corner (damaging merchandise), cops show up, victim gets three different, conflicting commands from officers...... boom, boom, boom, boom.
any day that ends with you in a body bag is a shitty day.
CarlosDJackal
07-12-10, 20:47
OR
you roll up and wonder why if a crazed man at Costco was brandishing a firearm you did not get a ton of other calls ?
so you make sure you get ahold of the store manager or have someone doing it while you are responding rather than just evacuating the store ? did they confirm things first ?
also you realize when he is walking out he is just like everyone else girlfriend at his side nobody is staring at him etc.. and realize that maybe the person who reported has a beef with him and just approach him and ask him what's up
if the guy was out of control I think the manager and others would have been calling in not just one clerk ? if I saw a guy brandishing a firearm at costco I would be calling the police and clearing out
maybe in the future as soon as a call like this comes in from a large store they immediately get ahold of managers at the store to confirm what's really going on
Like an Officer who is dispatched to an incident involving an armed man who was destroying items in a store that has evacuated all other employees and patrons? Like any responding Officer with any kind of common sense would walk up without guns drawn and would just walk in asking questions like there is no danger?
I'm not saying that the subject did all that the obviously moronic clerk reported. But I think you've been watching too many Dirty Harry movies.
There is bound to be a video of this incident and if not enough witnesses to allow the Investigators to piece an accurate picture of what happened. Give them a chance to do so before anyone else comes up with any other assinine theories.
This is a tragic all around and coming up with theories based on what little information is available is counter-productive. Prayers all around to those affected by this tragedy.
If the COSTCO clerk did precipitate this for no reason than he or she saw a gun, I hope he or she gets sued into oblivion by the subject's survivors. JM2CW.
If there is no evidence of the Army officer doing anything illegal in the store, the clerk should be charged with murder. Same as if a cop loses control of his interceptor and runs into some poor bastard while pursuing an armed felon, charge the real criminal.
Charge the clerk? Seriously? The clerk is hardly responsible for the death of this man, even if they are a overreacting paranoid gun-hater.
Here's more food for thought:
Many businesses such as Costco, Walmart, etc have internal policies about WHO calls police in case of incidents. Typical SOP is for an employee to alert supervision/management of a problem, and they decide what outside resources are required. This is to prevent LCD employees from making bad decisions and causing embarrassment to the store.
Having seen that SOP in action a variety of times, and listening to dispatch tapes afterward, the info that responders get can be radically different than what the first observer reports to their supervisor.
Point: Let's not hang the clerk without a lot more info. It may very well have been an honorable simpleton on minimum wage doing what they thought was best.
Unless the Army officer was waving that gun around like a crazed ape or pointed it at someone, those cops are in a lot of trouble, and the Las Vegas budget crises is about to get worse.
Unlikely. Use of force review isn't going to factor in every detail. It's going to consider what the cops knew and saw when they shot him, and apply the objectively reasonable standard of review.
Just speculating here at this point, but one of the nightmare scenarios for somebody who carries regularly is having the police called in a situation such as this one, then having multiple officers respond and shout different commands at you.
COP1: WHERE IS THE GUN! SHOW ME WHERE IT IS!
COP2: DON'T MOVE! DON'T MOVE!
COP3: DOWN! LAY DOWN ON THE GROUND! NOW!
I would not be surprised if this turned out to be the problem. He complies with one officer's commands but as a result does something that another officer views as non-compliant and threatening.
Indeed, it is a common problem. Training norms now are that one single officer gives commands to avoid such a situation, but how well it makes it into practice varies widely.
Just a crappy situation all over. But for those of you who are LEO, and you arrive to a call where there is a man 'waiving a gun around' and pretty much acting all crazy, and there are people walking out all normal as though nothing has happened, wouldn't that give you some pause?
Not trying to second guess the officers, just curious.
You answered the question. Can they ask you to leave? etc.
Even if the place is posted no carry, by law if you are outed you are subject to a misdemeanor trespass, if you are asked to leave and you don't comply.
As for the shooting, I really hate to say it, but Metro has had several questionable shootings over the past few years.
I hope this isn't another one, but its really looking like it might be one.
GermanSynergy
07-12-10, 22:12
Withholding judgements until all of the facts are in. There are too many variables and possibilities at this point.
Charge the clerk? Seriously? The clerk is hardly responsible for the death of this man, even if they are a overreacting paranoid gun-hater.
It is like the girlfriend in the car when her boyfriend stops to buy some beer and holds up the seven eleven and kills the clerk and then comes running and and says to floor it and the girlfriend helps him get away. Even though she did not pull the trigger, was not even there when the clerk was killed, and did not know the boyfriend was going to hold the place up let alone kill someone -- she could be tried for murder. There are many similar cases. If your actions lead to someone getting injured or killed, whether intentional or not, you could be liable if other cases are anything to judge by. If the employee strictly followed all policies and did not embellish anything at all then their actions, in my book, would be deemed non contributory. But if they made it up or embellished or anything then their actions directly lead to this death.
As someone else mentioned: if you start a high speed chase (as the bad guy) and the cop chasing you accidentally hits and kills a pedestrian, YOU could be charged for that death. Same idea.
IANAL (AIDPOOTV)
ChicagoTex
07-12-10, 23:06
Subbing this thread for when the full facts are inevitably posted.
Obviously, for this man to do anything warranting his death (or even arrest) would be incredibly out of character for him, and thus highly unlikely.
The question, as so many have pointed out, will be whether or not the officers who fired acted reasonably.
Until I have evidence to the contrary, I think I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and chalk this up to a tragic misunderstanding.
One thing that bugs me: the clerk called claiming the man was damaging store property:confused: I'd like to know exactly what he meant by that, as technically, accidentally knocking over something (which happens all the time to me as shelves seem to be more and more overstocked) can be "damaging store property".
John_Wayne777
07-12-10, 23:06
It is like the girlfriend in the car when her boyfriend stops to buy some beer and holds up the seven eleven and kills the clerk and then comes running and and says to floor it and the girlfriend helps him get away.
Calling 911 because they spotted a guy with a gun in the store doesn't exactly fit that model, bro.
Preferred User
07-12-10, 23:15
Unfortunately this should also serve as a cautionary tale for off-duty/UC LE. If you are city LE and county LE (or any other combination) rolls up on a similar complaint what happens if reaching for your shield or doing something else is seen as threatening? Have you thought of how to react?
If the clerk lied, what he did was tantamount to pulling the trigger all by himself.
What does the guy deserve if he lied? He deserves to be dragged into the gutter and shot, but with much regret I don't think is going to happen either.
Many states have no sympathy towards people who lie and cause the deaths of others.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/050608dnmetnuroberson.363ab55.html
The only thing that has saved the rear end of many a lawman and jurisdiction in the past in Nevada is that shooting fleeing felons is completely legal (a really good law that should be extended to everyone in every state!)
Calling 911 because they spotted a guy with a gun in the store doesn't exactly fit that model, bro.
If that was all that they did. If however they embellished and made up facts then it does, I would think. I already allowed for them being strictly on the up and up reporting exactly the facts.
rickrock305
07-12-10, 23:46
slick?
yea, my posts seem to have disappeared. shocking!
This is what I was thinking as well. To me this is another good reason to take care and keep your weapon concealed.
It is my understanding that in order for you to be asked to leave a business in NV, they have to have signs posted that say no carrying allowed.
Just speculating here at this point, but one of the nightmare scenarios for somebody who carries regularly is having the police called in a situation such as this one, then having multiple officers respond and shout different commands at you.
COP1: WHERE IS THE GUN! SHOW ME WHERE IT IS!
COP2: DON'T MOVE! DON'T MOVE!
COP3: DOWN! LAY DOWN ON THE GROUND! NOW!
I would not be surprised if this turned out to be the problem. He complies with one officer's commands but as a result does something that another officer views as non-compliant and threatening.
Unfortunately this should also serve as a cautionary tale for off-duty/UC LE. If you are city LE and county LE (or any other combination) rolls up on a similar complaint what happens if reaching for your shield or doing something else is seen as threatening? Have you thought of how to react?
I have.
Slowly. Methodically. Do exactly as you are told. Save the "what the ****s" and "this is bullshit" for later. Anything else and you run the risk of being lit up like a Christmas tree.
As stated before, who knows what the responding officers were actually dispatched to.
I have, on multiple occasions been dispatched on "beep beep beep! Copy man with a gun. Multiple armed males around a house"......only to find it is Joe Q. Good Guy and his brothers packing thier guns out to the truck to go shooting.
People freak when they see guns. If someone calls 911 freaking out, it alarms the call taker and dispatcher. Then the excited dispatcher (they have vivid imaginations) may over react when they dispatch the call. In turn, the responding officers are amped up. They can only go by the information recieved.
Yes, this stuff pisses me off. But I sure as hell don't want to minimize the next "man with a gun" and get my ass shot either.
No easy answers.
I was involved in a similar situation in California when I was 16. I did exactly what I was told and when they told me to exit the vehicle I got on my knees and put my hands behind my head and didn't move until the CHP officer whacked me with his shotgun.
All because of a misunderstanding and someone who thought they saw a firearm.
i've actually put a lot of thought into this, after numerous local incidents involving law-abiding armed, as well as unarmed people getting stopped by police have made the news for various reasons.
my policy is that if i'm ever at gunpoint by cops, i'm going to put my hands in the air, turn my back to the officers, drop to my knees, and remain absolutely motionless. if i hear commands, i will simply stay still or reply with my fears if given the opportunity to speak. if i get tased- more ammo for the suin' lawer. at least i didn't get shot trying to comply.
The sad thing is that bearing a firearm is a civil right. Yet people freak out when they see one. I would think that 911 call takers should be trained to ask a few questions for this sort of thing. Like, are the guys doing anything threatening? etc. It should be natural to see people with guns. Seeing a gun should not be enough to roll the cavalry unless there are other pieces in the puzzle also present.
Hope I expressed that well enough. Lamenting our society more than anything.
ThirdWatcher
07-13-10, 03:33
Withholding judgements until all of the facts are in. There are too many variables and possibilities at this point.
I agree.
ChicagoTex
07-13-10, 03:36
The sad thing is that bearing a firearm is a civil right. Yet people freak out when they see one. I would think that 911 call takers should be trained to ask a few questions for this sort of thing. Like, are the guys doing anything threatening? etc. It should be natural to see people with guns. Seeing a gun should not be enough to roll the cavalry unless there are other pieces in the puzzle also present.
I agree, especially on the point that 911 Dispatchers should be asking more questions.
I'm anxious to see how this turns out, but for now there's one big lesson to be learned - concealed means concealed. Regardless of who shot when and why, it all could have been avoided if the clerk hadn't seen the gun in the first place. I've been carrying for 9 years now, and I understand that sometimes things happen, but you have to be damn careful not to get outed for this exact reason. I also don't see open carry laws as an excuse for shitty concealment technique. Conceal it or don't.
Last week I saw some fat shmuck with a tight t-shirt covering up a gun in an OWB holster. You could almost see the grip screws the shirt was so tight. I quietly pointed out that he was showing his ass and scaring the sheep, and he didn't give a crap in the world. I wouldn't have blamed anybody for calling the cops. In theory, it could have gone down the same way as this incident in Nevada.
I'm not saying the guy should have been shot, but I can see how it might happen (assuming he didn't go off his meds or something).
yea, my posts seem to have disappeared. shocking!
Save your smart-ass/sarcastic posts. They don't have a place in this thread.
CarlosDJackal
07-13-10, 08:47
Just a crappy situation all over. But for those of you who are LEO, and you arrive to a call where there is a man 'waiving a gun around' and pretty much acting all crazy, and there are people walking out all normal as though nothing has happened, wouldn't that give you some pause?
Not trying to second guess the officers, just curious.
No longer a current LEO but if I still were my answer would be Hell No!! I'd go by what the Dispatcher has told me more than what the sheeple are indicating. Just because the hostages are acting normal, it doesn't mean everything is kosher.
A lot o LEOs are killed because they ASSUME that things are not as bad as they were told. Until I identify the subject or subjects and I can judge whether or not they are in fact, a danger; I will assume that there is someone who has the capability to kill me.
The possibilities of what happened in this incident are endless. The LEO may have over reacted. The subject may have done something that could have caused said over reaction (IE: furtive movement). The COSCO clerk may have over exaggerated the amount of danger they were in and made it sound like it was a Columbine situation to the 9-1-1 Dispatcher. The Dispatcher may have misinterpreted what the 9-1-1 caller said and told Officers that it was an Active Shooter situation.
All of this is pure speculation/fantasy/tinfoil interpretation/bs/what-have-you at this point. We just have to wait for the facts to reveal themselves during the investigation.
As truthseeker indicated, the immediate lesson here is if you are going to carry a handgun concealed, you better make damned sure that it stays concealed. JM2CW.
In the Vegas area you even have people committing insurgent style suicide gunman attacks on the courthouses, sniping at DA's and judges. Crazy stuff. There are some big problems up there.i believe the sniping was in reno. google reno pawnshop owner shooting. the courthouse one was downtown vegas just off fremont st.
decodeddiesel
07-13-10, 09:56
I feel for the mans friends and family. Sounds like he was a good man and certainly did not deserve to have his life ended in such a manor. I am interested in hearing all of the facts surrounding this.
It is interesting to note that in the news video that Irish posted on page one of the thread. The comments, while ignorant and somewhat inflammatory, do show the other side of the story that is very easy to get from this. Guy goes "berserk" in store, carrying two handguns, fails to obey police commands, gets shot, good job LVPD. While I personally seriously doubt this is how it went down, it would be very easy for sheeple to get this from the facts presented.
If the evidence comes out to prove that the grad was indeed complying with the officers' orders when he was shot, then I hope to God those officers:
1. Are arrested
2. Are tried in court with the first officer to shoot his weapon being charged with second-degree murder pursuing the death penalty, while the other two are charged with voluntary manslaughter
3. Are made examples of and that their careers are destroyed
4. That they are sued in civil court after the fact
That is all.
The local TV news, newspapers, police & witness statements all contradict one another. This happened in a nice area of Las Vegas and there are plenty of video cams at this Costco. Once the surveillance videos are released we'll be able to make a better assessment.
I will say that the friends and co-workers of Erik Scott who were interviewed on the local news all said this would be completely out of character for the man and they were quite convincing. I also know that everyone is a saint after they've passed but there was a definite concensus among those interviewed and people calling in who claim to be witnesses to what happened that this was a tragic mistake.
This is the most recent article I could find: http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/jul/12/metro-ids-officers-fatal-shooting-summerlin-costco/.
Metro Police on Monday said a man fatally shot by officers at a Costco store in Summerlin had pointed a gun at an officer before three officers fired their weapons, killing the man.
Police identified the three officers in the Saturday shooting as Officer William Mosher, 38, who has been with the department since June 2005; Officer Joshua Stark, 28, with the department since September 2008; and Officer Thomas Mendiola, 23, with the department since March 2009.
All officers are part of the Northwest Area Command Patrol Division. The Clark County Coroner's Office has identified the man killed as Erik Scott, 38, of Las Vegas.
Authorities said a Costco employee called 911 to report a man acting erratically in the store, damaging merchandise and carrying a pistol in his waistband. An officer approached the man, identified as Scott, then noticed the pistol and gave him verbal commands to lay on the ground, police said.
After Scott pointed the pistol at an officer, the officers fired at him, striking him multiple times, police said. He died at University Medical Center a short time later.
The officers who fired their weapons were placed on administrative leave during the investigation, which is standard procedure for officer-involved shootings.
Metro Police on Monday said witness accounts match the officers' description of events, but a lawyer representing Scott's family denied police reports Monday that the man had pulled out a handgun and pointed it at police.
Attorney Ross Goodman, a criminal defense lawyer and son of Las Vegas Mayor Oscar Goodman, said Scott had a concealed weapon permit.
"He did not pull a handgun," Goodman said. "All the witnesses we've heard from have said he did not make any threatening gestures, and didn't do anything that could be construed as acting in a threatening manner."
Goodman said he expects that surveillance videos and a coroner's inquest will show that the shooting near the entrance of Costco was neither justifiable nor excusable. Only one officer has been found to have acted improperly since 1976.
CarlosDJackal
07-13-10, 11:14
Whether this is applicable to this case remains to be seen: Article of Furtive Movement (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_158_26/ai_86704794/)
It is my understanding that in order for you to be asked to leave a business in NV, they have to have signs posted that say no carrying allowed.
Yes it is.
Goodman said he expects that surveillance videos and a coroner's inquest will show that the shooting near the entrance of Costco was neither justifiable nor excusable. Only one officer has been found to have acted improperly since 1976.
This shows the problem with the coroner's inquest here that's been brought up numerous times over the years. Officers that have been found to have not acted improperly include an officer who shot/killed a handcuffed suspect in the back from 30 feet away while the suspect, who was cuffed behind his back, had a Metro officer on each side of him holding an arm. Officer who fired his weapon stated that he thought the handcuffed suspect was making a move for one of the officer's holstered weapons.
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/jul/12/metro-ids-officers-fatal-shooting-summerlin-costco/
Witnesses recall gun in police shooting at Costco
Pair corroborate elements of official account of man's death
By LAWRENCE MOWER
AND BRIAN HAYNES
LAS VEGAS REVIEW-JOURNAL
Erik Scott, who was described by Las Vegas police as "kind of going berserk" before he was fatally shot by officers in front of a Costco store on Saturday, did not appear out of control to one witness who saw the man interacting with store employees.
In a news release issued Monday, police said Scott, 39, was "acting erratically" and "damaging merchandise" while inside the store in Summerlin. He also was seen with a pistol on him, police said. Police were called to the store about the incident, which ended with Scott's death. Shots were fired by three officers, including one who was involved in a fatal shooting in 2006.
But a witness the Review-Journal interviewed Monday, a 72-year-old man who spoke on the condition that his name not be used, said Scott did not appear to be doing anything nefarious.
Scott was crouched down with a backpack in front of him in a sporting goods aisle, the witness said. Scott had taken a large package of sport drink bottles off the shelf and placed it on the floor in front of him. He had torn open the package to get at the contents and was placing the bottles in and out of the backpack.
"It was like he was trying it out," the man said. "I think possibly he was trying to see if it would fit in his backpack."
A Costco employee confronted Scott in the aisle, and the witness said Scott's voice was "elevated." He couldn't hear what was being said. The witness did not see a gun on Scott.
But when the witness walked by Scott, he heard him say to the employee, "Well, I can do that in Texas."
"After we walked down the aisle, my wife said, 'That's a funny thing for him to say,' and I agreed," the witness said.
In retrospect, the 72-year-old man said he believed Scott's comment about Texas was a reference to being allowed to carry a concealed handgun.
When the couple rounded the corner of the aisle, they saw a second Costco employee who appeared to be talking on a Bluetooth headset while observing Scott and the other employee.
Roughly five minutes later, the man said, he heard an announcement on the store's intercom asking everyone to leave the building.
Scott was shot while following the crowd out of the store.
Several witnesses interviewed by the Review-Journal have said they did not see a gun and did not see Scott reach for a gun when police confronted him outside the store.
But the 72-year-old man, in addition to another witness reached Monday, said they did see the weapon and did see Scott reach for it.
Police have said that Scott drew a pistol and pointed it at officers after they ordered him to raise his hands and lie on the ground. Both witnesses gave their accounts to homicide investigators, they said.
The 72-year-old man heard police say, "Get on the ground. Get on the ground." He saw Scott facing the officers, who were between Scott and the store entrance.
The man said he saw Scott reach with his right hand and pull out what appeared to be a gun in a zippered holster. He recognized the holster, he said, because he has one like it. Officers then fired, and the man saw the gun fall out of Scott's hand. The witness did not see Scott point the gun at officers.
"I feel sorry for the guy, but he just made a dumb move," the 72-year-old man said.
The second witness, who also spoke on the condition that his name not be used, was standing near the entrance when he said he heard police shout, "Get down on the ground. Get down now."
He turned to see why police were yelling, he said, and saw Scott reaching for what appeared to be a pistol in his waistband. The witness said he recognized the butt of the gun and immediately turned toward his wife and covered her as they dove to the ground.
"He was definitely reaching for the gun," the man said.
The witness turned away before he could see whether Scott fully removed the weapon from his waistband and didn't see the shooting. He said it did not appear that Scott was trying to "quick-draw" the weapon on the officers.
He heard gunshots soon after. The witness said he has been struggling with how the incident unfolded.
"It's so totally bizarre to me" that the man would grab the weapon in front of the officers, the witness said.
He added that he doesn't believe the man deserved to die for his actions, as he has heard other people say. But he said he does believe the officers were justified in their response.
However, he disputes whether police should have confronted Scott in a dense crowd. Nobody else was injured during the incident.
The Costco store, at 801 S. Pavilion Center Circle, has video surveillance cameras. It wasn't clear whether the cameras captured the event. Calls to Costco's corporate spokesman were not returned Monday.
Clark County Sheriff Doug Gillespie said Monday that investigators have been trying to obtain the video: "We have not recovered any video at this point."
He said he couldn't comment on the case because it is under investigation and will be the subject of a Clark County coroner's inquest. A date for the inquest has not yet been scheduled.
Three officers have been placed on routine paid administrative leave pending the outcomes of the investigation and inquest. They are 38-year-old William Mosher, a five-year veteran of the department; 28-year-old Joshua Stark, a two-year veteran; and 23-year-old Thomas Mendiola, also a two-year veteran.
Saturday's shooting was not the first for Mosher, who in April 2006 was one of two officers who shot and killed a suspect in a car.
At a coroner's inquest, officers Mosher and John Jessie Wiggins testified they feared for Wiggins' life when they opened fire on Aaron Jones at the Sunset Breeze apartments in the southwest valley. Both officers fired after Jones, a suspect in a home burglary, backed up his car and hit Wiggins in an attempt to escape.
Police said Scott, a 1994 graduate of the U.S. Military Academy at West Point who earned a master's degree from North Carolina's Duke University, was carrying two guns. They said that he pointed one at officers and that a second one was found by medical personnel transporting Scott to University Medical Center.
Attorney Ross Goodman, who is representing the family, said he does not dispute that Scott was carrying a weapon. But he said he has received numerous calls and e-mails from witnesses who claim that they did not see Scott pull out a gun in front of officers.
Scott's girlfriend was present during the shooting. Friends said the two were buying items for when she was to move in with him. She has declined to comment through Goodman, who has described the family as "distraught" over what happened.
Scott has lived in Las Vegas for more than a decade, according to his friends. He was a sales representative for Boston Scientific, a medical devices manufacturer. He sold pacemakers for the company.
Contact reporter Lawrence Mower at lmower@ reviewjournal.com or 702-383-0440. Contact reporter Brian Haynes at bhaynes@reviewjournal.com or 702-383-0281.
LVMPD doesn't have the best hiring policies, until recently it was quantity over quality. I'm not going to be shocked in the least to find out the video tapes didn't record the shooting, wouldn't be the last or first time that has happened.
And no I'm not cop bashing, just going from past history of the department. And if the shooting is found to be what the witnesses have described, chances of anything coming from it are slim to none. Clark County is pretty much a miniature LA just a little more to the east. It's not really Nevada, well at least since the 90's, it's been californicated in the ass.
Clark County Sheriff Doug Gillespie said Monday that investigators have been trying to obtain the video: "We have not recovered any video at this point."
Those stores are covered with cameras more than a prison and it is ALL recorded. Just going by the statements by the police and witnesses video will be the only way to prove anything. If everything is not on video something funny is going on.
ThirdWatcher
07-14-10, 03:32
I'm not gonna pass judgment on this case yet, but I can tell you there have been plenty of off-duty and plainclothes officers shot over the years for not responding appropriately to responding uniformed patrol officers. Sad, but true.
John_Wayne777
07-14-10, 07:55
Those stores are covered with cameras more than a prison and it is ALL recorded. Just going by the statements by the police and witnesses video will be the only way to prove anything. If everything is not on video something funny is going on.
Speaking as someone who has a surveillance system that has been used to successfully prosecute crimes....
Not necessarily. See, we have a digital camera system from Ademco that is now some years old. The cameras themselves feed data through network lines into a black box that contains a hard drive which records the video. We retrieve video by using a piece of software that communicates with the firmware governing the function of this box...and that is the only way to retrieve video.
For better than six months we had absolutely no access to the camera system because someone made a change to a switch, a network device that routes all the network traffic. In making that change they screwed up the IP address for the black box of the camera system, which meant we could not dial into it to retrieve data. Fixing this was not a priority for anyone despite my efforts to hound the people responsible until they fixed the damn problem.
This made me the most popular belle at the ball, I assure you...but I eventually got the screwheads to fix the damn problem. Once we could communicate with the black box again, we discovered to our dismay that the cameras themselves...each of which had its own network address...were not feeding data into the black box for the same reasons. That took time to fix, too.
So while the casual observer thought that we had video, the truth is we had zilch.
Video systems are like any other piece of safety equipment...often they are not thought of unless they are needed, which means that often they do not work when needed. There's a long list of best practices organizations ***should*** observe with surveillance systems, but it's exceptionally easy for those best practices to be compromised due to cost or convenience, especially if you work in my environment where the instinct of my immediate supervisors is to instantly reduce by half any proposal I bring to them....which means that the camera system dependent on network access does not have it's own segregated network hardware, is not protected by a UPS, etc.
So personally having dealt with video surveillance systems for years and having used them to successfully prosecute people for theft, public lewdness, and even a pedophile or two...it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see that Costco had no useful video because if some dude came into my facility right now and started mowing people down I probably couldn't come up with any useful video either. It has nothing to do with conspiracy and everything to do with incompetence. Never blame on conspiracy those things which can easily be explained by stupidity, my friend.
Retail organizations ***should*** put a higher priority on video footage since shrink and shoplifting are a big concern for them, but even then you never know until you actually go to retrieve the data from the system.
There's this appetite out there to pin the blame on some incompetent cops because lots of us can identify with the deceased in this incident. The fact that he had a CCW doesn't mean he wasn't a screwhead. The fact that the people who shot him had a badge doesn't mean that they aren't screwheads. It should also be clearly understood that sometimes some situations just suck balls and that even with good people on either side of it the outcome can be bad. Very bad. It would be unwise to allow sympathy for the deceased (who by all accounts I've seen probably deserves it) to disengage our rational thinking to the point where we see conspiracy where there is none.
I'm not gonna pass judgment on this case yet, but I can tell you there have been plenty of off-duty and plainclothes officers shot over the years for not responding appropriately to responding uniformed patrol officers. Sad, but true.
I don't think this can be stated enough. The simple fact is that officers responding to a call for service have zero idea what they are dealing with until they are on scene. CCW holders...and off-duty/plainclothes cops...think of themselves as good guys and they generally are. The problem is that being a good guy does not give you a halo. There is no instantly recognizable external signal that you are a West Point grad and by all accounts a stand up guy who wasn't, in fact, doing anything that deserved a hysterical 911 call and evacuation of the store. The cops arriving on scene only know what they were told by the dispatcher, who got their information from a store employee who was obviously dramatically overreacting. There's no instantly recongizable external signal that you are a decorated LEO who just happens to be stocking up on some red meat for a cookout when some assclown starts shooting the place up.
...and no, those gay sashes some people are trying to market these days do not distinguish you as a good guy. As a general rule, consider anything you can buy from an add in Guns 'n' Ammo to be absolutely irrelevant to officers responding on scene. Unless you are in a police uniform, if you have a gun when the uniformed officers show up, you're probably going to be treated like the threat. It would be wise for those of us who carry a gun...whether with a bade or with a permit...to give some thought to exactly what lessons we can learn from this.
JW777's lessons so far:
1. Ensure nobody ever spots my piece.
2. If my piece is spotted and this seems to cause *ANY* tension whatsoever, I'm getting the hell out of that place instantly.
3. If I do have to interact with the police in their professional capacity while I happen to be in possession of a weapon, I'm not going near the thing...for any reason. I don't care if somebody orders me to take the gun out...I'm not touching it.
4. Adopting a generally pleasant and compliant demeanor with other people might be able to diffuse a chain of stupid events that can result in death by police gunfire. In other words, if a Costco employee notices that I'm doing something they don't like and approach me, I should respond to them in a friendly, helpful manner to try and head off any potential misunderstandings.
The attitude of the person under suspicion plays a major role in how LE responds to the potential perp. Will be interesting to see his actions and words if video/audio ever surfaces.
Wonder if he'd said, "I'm going to lay down, cross my ankles, and place my arms behind my back," if it would have helped.
ChicagoTex
07-14-10, 13:38
Will be interesting to see his actions and words if video/audio ever surfaces.
While video is likely, almost no commercial surveillance records audio.
While video is likely, almost no commercial surveillance records audio.
Do they ever release LEO's audio recordings? I know that many officers carry a recording device not only to help them to write reports later but also as a CYA measure, it would definitely help exonerate them in this case.
Littlelebowski
07-14-10, 15:21
Apparently a good friend of his is posting here (http://www.georgiapacking.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=48486).
Hey folks, I just joined after reading on here for several months. Long story short, I'll be following this case as it unfolds:
http://www.lvrj.com/news/man-did-not-pu ... 79344.html
The man involved is the West Point buddy of one of my best friends. He was shot by the police at Costco in a nice suburb of Vegas this weekend. At first my concern was that he was kind of being trashed in media accounts and how easy it is for a guy to be portrayed as the "bad guy". Lately, I'm trying to put myself in the cops shoes and see how this could happen.
In a nutshell, Erik Scott was at Costco buying a bunch of stuff as he was moving in with his girlfriend. He was trying out a backpack of some sort by putting a bunch of water bottles in it and caught the attention of Costco security who spotted his holstered gun under a button down he was wearing. He talked with them and told them he had a license, was ex-military, etc. and that he would be out of there in 20 minutes. Costco called the cops and said a guy was opening things in the aisle and had a gun. The cops hear this and it gets worked into a guy going "beserk" and "destroying merchandise". Three cops and a helicopter are sent and they are prepped for the worst.
Costco evacuates everyone in the store saying there is some kind of emergency and Erik walks out with them - confused as to what is causing all of the commotion. When he is confronted by the cops at the exit door all drawn down on him he tries to explain that he has a license, says "don't shoot", etc. Lots of yelling is going on "Get down", "Hands up", "Stop", "Drop the gun". His girlfriend is yelling as well. He does not drop and tries to explain that he is "legit" and slowly raises his shirt to take the holstered gun off of his belt and "drop it" as commanded. He was immediately shot in front of his girlfriend and many, many customers who were all right around.
I don't really know what to think of it. I can see the cops point of view, and I can see it from my friend's point of view that they shot early. Maybe you guys can learn something from it. For me it reiterates what several have said which is don't ever reach for the gun. If the police want to disarm you, let them do it. Don't go reaching anywhere near. I know a lot of folks talk tough about what they would do in these situations, but I think the way Erik's situation unfolded the only way for him to come out alive would have been immediately dropping to the ground with hands out far...
Hopefully chatting with you folks about it will help me make some sense of it. I feel real bad for everyone involved from the family/friends, to the cops (one is now on his second fatal shooting in 2 years - two were rookies), to the customers who had to go through it as well.
CarlosDJackal
07-14-10, 16:04
Is the above statement by an acquaintance of the subject is true, then it does unfortunately fall under the furtive movement scenario.
As mentioned before, DO NOT reach for your legally concealed firearm if (God forbid) you are ever involved in such a high-stress incident.
Even when I was an LEO, I kept my hands on the steering wheel of my car when talking to an Officer who did not know me. I always informed them that I was LEGALLY carrying a concealed handgun and I told them where it was. Then I always asked them what they would like for me to do.
RIP.
I always informed them that I was LEGALLY carrying a concealed handgun and I told them where it was. Then I always asked them what they would like for me to do.
As I posted before under the heading of speculation - which, if this friends account is accurate, is looking less speculative - the problem occurs when you have a chaotic situation with multiple officers shouting conflicting commands. One may yell at you to put the gun on the ground (which would obviously require you to reach for it) while another yells at you to lay down on the ground, while yet another tells you to put your hand up and turn around.
So it's not always as easy as "doing what you're told." The lesson here to me is that if I'm not already holding a gun, I'm not reaching for one regardless of whether somebody yells at me to do otherwise.
Latest news: http://www.lvrj.com/news/lv-officer-at-costco-recorded-in-911-call-98397599.html
A 911 call made by a Summerlin Costco employee captures police shouting orders to 39-year-old Erik Scott before the U.S. Military Academy graduate was shot and killed, according to Las Vegas police.
Capt. Patrick Neville said an employee was talking to dispatchers and was close enough to the scene on Saturday that a recording of the conversation caught an officer clearly yelling, "Get on the ground."
Police have refused to release the recording. Investigators hope to review store surveillance video, but Neville said he didn't know whether any video of the shooting existed. How many days later and you don't know if there's video? Bullshit.
The Saturday shooting at the store near Charleston Boulevard and the Las Vegas Beltway took place after employees ordered an evacuation. As customers streamed out of the store, officers waited with their guns drawn for Scott to exit. Police said that when three officers confronted him, Scott refused orders and instead withdrew a handgun and pointed it at them.
Dozens of people witnessed the event, and many disagree on whether Scott pulled a gun and aimed it at officers, as police have alleged. The Review-Journal has interviewed six witnesses. Two claim to have seen Scott pull out a gun, and one of the two said it was in a holster.
Investigators have interviewed more than 40 witnesses, including more than a dozen who said they saw Scott with the gun in his hand and out of his waistband, Neville said.
Witnesses have also disagreed on what they heard police order Scott to do. Some heard, "Get on the ground," while others heard "Drop it," or "Get down."
Such wide discrepancies in witness reports are not unusual, experts say. They also arise in officer-involved shootings in Southern Nevada. Numerous witnesses in the controversial 2008 shooting of ice cream truck driver Deshira Selimaj by a Henderson police officer reported that the woman did not have a knife. Police said the woman was wielding a knife, prompting officer Luke Morrison to fatally shoot her. The knife recovered from Selimaj was used as evidence in a Clark County's coroner's inquest on the shooting.
Paul Michel, an optometrist, former police officer and expert on eyewitness accounts, said eyewitnesses are "notoriously unreliable."
"Unless someone happens to be staring right at a gun in somebody's hand, it would be difficult to impossible to differentiate it from a cell phone or a camera or an empty hand," said Michel, who is based in Denver.
He said people are too trusting of their peripheral vision.
"The frailties of our vision are not perceived by us," Michel said.
He suggested people try a simple test: focus on a picture on a wall from about eight feet away; then divert your eyes about five feet away from the picture and try to use your peripheral vision to make out what is in the picture. People have difficulty making out any detail in the picture, he said.
Police officers also have the same problem, Michel said. Officers are trained to look for threats, and in particular, a suspect's hands. And when an officer focuses on a threat, such as a weapon in someone's hands, they tend to lose all perception of anything around them, including other bystanders.
Roy Malpass, a professor of psychology who runs the Eyewitness Identification Research Laboratory at the University of Texas, El Paso, said memory can also be influenced by the moments immediately after a traumatic event. A person shouting, "He didn't have a gun" seconds after the incident could subconsciously affect how another witness remembers the event.
"If you get to people and ask them not very long after an event like that, you'll find that things will creep into their memory that aren't memories," Malpass said.
He added that evidence shows that officers are usually better witnesses at crime scenes because they're trained to know what to look for, similar to how lifeguards are trained to look for signs of someone drowning. But Malpass said that when the officers themselves are involved in the traumatic event, they are shown to be no more reliable than anyone else.
Neville on Monday also addressed the incident which prompted Costco to call police. He said the incident started when a customer reported seeing Scott opening boxes and removing water bottles, putting some in his cart and some on the floor.
During a heated discussion with Scott, a security worker confronting him over the opened boxes noticed Scott's gun in his waistband, Neville said.
Some time passed before a Costco employee called police to report a man with a gun who was acting erratically in the store, he said.
"He was doing something out of the norm," he said.
A witness the Review-Journal spoke to on Monday said he observed Scott opening the package in the aisle. He described Scott's voice while discussing the situation with a Costco employee as "elevated."
A corporate spokesman for Costco has not returned repeated requests for comment.
montanadave
07-14-10, 17:43
In the previous post by Littlelebowski (02:21), the quoted comments include "Lots of yelling is going on "Get down", "Hands up", "Stop", "Drop the gun"."
Here's my question. In these types of situations, isn't it SOP that one officer, and one officer only, issue commands so as to avoid any confusion by either the suspect or other officers on the scene? If, repeat, if the scenario as described actually took place (i.e. a suspect shot while attempting to comply with conflicting commands from police), this incident ought to generate a well-deserved shitstorm, as either poor training and/or failure to follow proper procedure essentially resulted in the public execution of an innocent man.
I was instructed by a buddy's uncle (a CHP captain at the time) back in the seventies that if either of us were ever pulled over, to keep our hands on the wheel, wait for instructions, and follow them to the letter. Several previous posts have reiterated that same advice.
But what the hell is a guy supposed to do if there are a half dozen cops with weapons drawn all shouting something different?
Should the deceased's friend really be posting this stuff without the family lawyer's consent?
After the Diallo incident, I would never, ever reach for anything if a cop had a gun on me no matter what he told me to do, especially if two cops were giving two different commands. I'd remain still and have my hands up and open where he could be sure I wasn't holding anything. If they still shoot you, then it's a cold-blooded execution instead of a "training issue". No cop wants to be in a bad shoot.
Let me put it this way, either keeping your hands where they can see them, or slowly laying down probably isn't going to get you shot. Reaching for your ID or your gun after being told to stay still or lie down might get you shot. In New York they had an off duty cop die because he was running towards a couple uniformed officers who were having an altercation with a criminal, all they saw was another black guy with a gun running towards them that wouldn't respond to commands to stop. Bad deal, but like someone said a few posts ago, they can't always tell a good guy with a gun from a badguy.
Should the deceased's friend really be posting this stuff without the family lawyer's consent?
Probably not, but he is a friend of Erik Scott's friend.
No longer a current LEO but if I still were my answer would be Hell No!! I'd go by what the Dispatcher has told me more than what the sheeple are indicating. Just because the hostages are acting normal, it doesn't mean everything is kosher.
A lot o LEOs are killed because they ASSUME that things are not as bad as they were told. Until I identify the subject or subjects and I can judge whether or not they are in fact, a danger; I will assume that there is someone who has the capability to kill me.
The possibilities of what happened in this incident are endless. The LEO may have over reacted. The subject may have done something that could have caused said over reaction (IE: furtive movement). The COSCO clerk may have over exaggerated the amount of danger they were in and made it sound like it was a Columbine situation to the 9-1-1 Dispatcher. The Dispatcher may have misinterpreted what the 9-1-1 caller said and told Officers that it was an Active Shooter situation.
Yeah, I'm with you on all of this.
All of this is pure speculation/fantasy/tinfoil interpretation/bs/what-have-you at this point. We just have to wait for the facts to reveal themselves during the investigation.
As truthseeker indicated, the immediate lesson here is if you are going to carry a handgun concealed, you better make damned sure that it stays concealed. JM2CW.
That's interesting, because the lesson I get from all of this is to be sure that there is a real threat before you shoot someone . . .
Joe Mamma
Nathan_Bell
07-14-10, 18:56
In the previous post by Littlelebowski (02:21), the quoted comments include "Lots of yelling is going on "Get down", "Hands up", "Stop", "Drop the gun"."
Here's my question. In these types of situations, isn't it SOP that one officer, and one officer only, issue commands so as to avoid any confusion by either the suspect or other officers on the scene? If, repeat, if the scenario as described actually took place (i.e. a suspect shot while attempting to comply with conflicting commands from police), this incident ought to generate a well-deserved shitstorm, as either poor training and/or failure to follow proper procedure essentially resulted in the public execution of an innocent man.
I was instructed by a buddy's uncle (a CHP captain at the time) back in the seventies that if either of us were ever pulled over, to keep our hands on the wheel, wait for instructions, and follow them to the letter. Several previous posts have reiterated that same advice.
But what the hell is a guy supposed to do if there are a half dozen cops with weapons drawn all shouting something different?
In theory, yes. In practice, no.
You will be having multiple officers yelling conflicting instructions at you. Your best bet is to clasp your hands on top of your head and verbalize (speak loudly, but don't yell) "I am getting on my knees" then see if the officers have gotten their shit together. If you are still getting yelled at by more than one officer. Go all the way to the ground.
At least if they shoot you then you know that the dipshit who shoots you will burn. (Any cop who shoots someone in that position is a dipshit, not cop bashing just dipshit bashing.)
This is largely a training issue for police, they have it so drilled into them to issue commands for everything that when the juice is flowing they literally cannot keep their mouths shut.
John_Wayne777
07-14-10, 19:26
If the above account is true...it was a superbly bad idea to touch the gun. When interacting with the cops, never...EVER...go near your gun.
Several other forums that I frequent are already hosting threads that feature posts lighting the poor SOB up to no end- accusing him of a bad attitude, stupid tactics, theft, brandishing, going mental and drawing on the po po etc etc.
I am very pro LE but I am sad to see that what, on the surface, seems to be a *questionable* shoot being handled in a way that will almost certainly serve to further erode the public trust in that particular agency. In oder for this to make sense from the agency's POV, this guy- a veritable pillar of society, by most accounts- needs to have just snapped and decided to go out in a blaze of glory in front of his GF and a bunch of other folks. Possible? I suppose. Likely? No. Does not compute, IMO.
I think the take away for ccw holders is that this scenario should be drilled _at least_ as much as any other. Another seems to be that any movement will be called "furtive movement" after the fact when somebody's job and income is on the line. In the face of conflicting simultaneous orders, I think it's best to just freeze and wait for the tazer or baton. You can sort it out later once you are in custody or at the hospital or whatever.
That's interesting, because the lesson I get from all of this is to be sure that there is a real threat before you shoot someone . . .
An ounce of prevention...
Littlelebowski
07-14-10, 22:00
His father speaks: (http://www.8newsnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=12809131)
LAS VEGAS -- The father of a Las Vegas businessman who was shot and killed by police at a Las Vegas Costco store says he's been receiving eyewitness reports which directly contradict the official version of Saturday's events.
William Scott, the father of Erik Scott, gave his first interview to 8 News NOW's George Knapp.
The shooting incident is different from almost anything we've seen in memory involving Metro Police, not only because there were more than three dozen eyewitnesses, but also because of who was shot.
Erik Scott was a West Point graduate who also had a degree from Duke. He was a successful businessman and his father is a nationally known aviation journalist with extensive contacts in military and intelligence circles.
Bill Scott says he will withhold judgement while the investigation continues, but it's clear he has serious questions about the reported sequence of events that ended with his son dead in front of a Costco.
"I can't make the connection between the cause and effect in this. There's no connection. The cause doesn't match the effect that my son was shot to death. The father part in me says call in the air strikes. The journalist part of me says withhold judgment. Don't react or assume until the facts are in," he said.
What bothers him most are the accounts that his son might have pulled a gun on police or made quick movements which prompted police to fire. Scott says Erik was trained to use and respect firearms from an early age and that it makes no sense that his son might have pointed a gun at anyone, let alone police officers.
"We will have to wait. Yes, it's distressing to see some of the reports out there. What's gratifying to me is the many very good first-hand accounts from people who were within six or eight feet and report a much different story than what I am seeing in the press. These reports are more consistent with the Eric that I know," he said.
Scott is a former Air Force flight test engineer whose classmates in the service include four astronauts. He says he will give Metro the benefit of the doubt while the investigation continues, but hints that he will bring other resources to bear if the family is unhappy with the results.
One thing that concerns him is the possibility that the security cameras at Costco will turn out to have been turned off or not working, which the family feels would be suspicious.
CarlosDJackal
07-14-10, 22:17
...That's interesting, because the lesson I get from all of this is to be sure that there is a real threat before you shoot someone...
Define "real threat"? Unless you can actually put yourself into the responding Officers' shoes at the very moment the subject (may he RIP) obtained his firearm; I submit that your definition of "real threat" is just another case of MMQB.
In a split second these Officers, who were told that the subject was destructive and armed with a gun, had to identify whether or not the subject was about to take a shot at them or was merely complying with their orders.
If you are willing to verify that you are under a "real threat" by the amount of gunfire that is directed at you; then more power to you. You should join an LE Agency in a jurisdiction that can make this a reality.
Why are MMQBs always so perfect? :blink:
The Coroner's Inquest isn't supposed to be until September and they, Las Vegas Metro, will not release any audio or video prior to that date according to the local news.
justin_247
07-15-10, 04:35
There are a lot of nasty comments in here about police officers that are completely off the mark. Like was said earlier, it's not like the cops went there knowing that he was a West Point grad with a successful business, and that he had a concealed permit.
Additionally, the comments made about Costco are also wrongheaded. If the store's policy is that no firearms are allowed, then the individual in question had an obligation to either disarm or immediately leave the store. Costco is *not* public property - it's private - and private property rules apply here.
I have been to several COSTCO's and I frequent the one near my house all the time. I have never seen a no firearms allowed sign. I have even been to one in Vegas, same thing.
There are a lot of nasty comments in here about police officers that are completely off the mark. Like was said earlier, it's not like the cops went there knowing that he was a West Point grad with a successful business, and that he had a concealed permit.
Additionally, the comments made about Costco are also wrongheaded. If the store's policy is that no firearms are allowed, then the individual in question had an obligation to either disarm or immediately leave the store. Costco is *not* public property - it's private - and private property rules apply here.
There are a lot of nasty comments in here about police officers that are completely off the mark.
Please point them out to me. A good percentage of the mods and staff here on M4C are LEO so we don't allow "nasty comments" about police officers. If we've missed something please point it out.
justin_247
07-15-10, 10:34
Please point them out to me. A good percentage of the mods and staff here on M4C are LEO so we don't allow "nasty comments" about police officers. If we've missed something please point it out.
There was one on the first page, but I guess it's gone now.
There are a lot of nasty comments in here about police officers that are completely off the mark. Like was said earlier, it's not like the cops went there knowing that he was a West Point grad with a successful business, and that he had a concealed permit.
Additionally, the comments made about Costco are also wrongheaded. If the store's policy is that no firearms are allowed, then the individual in question had an obligation to either disarm or immediately leave the store. Costco is *not* public property - it's private - and private property rules apply here.
Please reference what nasty remarks where made about any LEO in this thread so that the situation can be dealt with. There is a huge difference in making a critical remark of an officer's performance and questioning what happened versus slandering the individual or making statements with malicious intent. Police are not infallible and many of the members here who are pro-LEO, or LEO themselves, are still critical of their actions when it comes to something of this nature.
As a second thought on the subject I'll let you know that in the past few years in Las Vegas there have been several major incidents involving Metro where there have been cover ups to protect the LEOs involved and consequently trying to prosecute innocent citizens. That isn't meant to be insulting, it's a fact, but it does give you a little more perspective as to why LV citizens may be more critical of what happened here. Asking for someone to take accountability for their actions is not in any way shape or form trying to denigrate or vilify them.
There is not a "No Gun" policy at this Costco location. My wife and I are members at this exact location and I can tell you for a fact that no such thing exists. On several occasions I've OC'ed at that store due to being out and about shooting in the desert and only having an OWB holster for my 1911 and not wanting to disarm and leave it in the car. The only thing that happened to me was a couple funny looks from some older women, 99% of most people didn't notice, but all I did was smile and say hello without any incident.
woodandsteel
07-15-10, 10:47
I may have missed it, but who is actually investigating this incident?
Is it the local police involved in the incident? Or the State Police?
Around here, any type of OIS would be investigated by the State.
I may have missed it, but who is actually investigating this incident?
Is it the local police involved in the incident? Or the State Police?
As of right now and to the best of my knowledge from everything I've read it's Las Vegas Metro Police Department.
Costco is *not* public property - it's private - and private property rules apply here.
Costco is actually a "place of public accommodation." (You can Google it to find out what that is). That means that all private property rules do NOT apply (whether they should or not is another question, the fact is that they don't [though I believe they should]).
This means that you cannot ask blacks, gays, whites, Christians, Moslems, jews, disabled people, etc to leave during business hours. You have to install fancy toilets and all sorts of other ADA stuff. The upholding of so-called "civil rights" is much stronger at such a place. Carrying a gun is a civil right protected by the Constitution.
As long as such "places of public accommodation" exist, we should make sure that ALL civil rights are protected in such places, not just certain PC ones. As such, *given the current laws on places of public accommodations*, I do not believe that a store owner should be allowed to ask someone carrying a gun legally to leave. The same way they cannot ask a black, a white, a Jew, or a disabled person or a gay to leave for being that sort of person.
(again, the question on whether the distinction of "place of public accommodation" should exist is another question that need not be discussed here)
There was one on the first page, but I guess it's gone now.
Like I said, a lot of the staff and mods here are LEO so those comments won't stand. Neither will statements like this:
There are a lot of nasty comments in here about police officers that are completely off the mark.
I'm trying to prevent generalizations and opinions when we don't have all the facts and you take one comment and say, "there are a lot of nasty comments"? Come on man, we're better than that.
The bottom line is we don't have all the facts and we weren't there. It's impossible to blame the police, Costco or the guy right now because until you're in that situation you don't know what happened, why it happened or how it happened.
Police Officers can only go buy what they're told by dispatch and they are only as good as the info they're getting from the caller. More than likely there isn't a single incident/issue that caused this but a serious of events that happened in a strange sequence that led up to this terrible incident.
I hope nothing I've said is construed to be disparaging police officers. I'm merely pointing out that LVMPD has a history of questionable shoots and cover ups, and the way the coroner's inquest is set up it heavily favors Metro.
I hope nothing I've said is construed to be disparaging police officers. I'm merely pointing out that LVMPD has a history of questionable shoots and cover ups, and the way the coroner's inquest is set up it heavily favors Metro.
I didn't take it that way and you do have a valid point concerning Metro.
EDIT: If people are curious as to what Rider and I had alluded to I suggest Googling James Manor (RIP) and Calvin Darling. The case does not involve a shooting but does show evidence of a cover up by Metro concerning Officer Manor driving 109mph on a 45mph major road without using lights or sirens, Metro claimed he was running both at the time. Mr. Darling was arrested, jailed and had his reputation slandered due to the lies of a fellow officer and their slanted "investigation". By no means am I trying to paint all of Metro with the same brush but there are a few who do some shady shit and if you practice your Google-Fu you'll get a full understanding.
In a split second these Officers, who were told that the subject was destructive and armed with a gun
This raises another issue.
Remember the game of "telephone" that kids play in grade school? You sit in a circle and one person whispers a sentence into the ear of the next, then that person repeats it to the next person, and by the time it goes full circle it's completely changed.
Adults do this, too. Store employees sees guy doing something, tells it to manager one way, who tells it to dispatcher another way, who tells it to officers another way, and so on.
This shit must happen every day. This is not an attempt to MMQB this situation, but a general comment that one should not rely on the characterizations of another regarding these situations. What the dispatcher hears from someone who heard it from someone else is not gospel. In fact, I'd make a more than educated guess that it's embellished, borderline bullshit a large percentage of the time.
While video is likely, almost no commercial surveillance records audio.
there was a report that a 911 recording has the audio of the confrontation.
ChicagoTex
07-15-10, 13:22
there was a report that a 911 recording has the audio of the confrontation.
Well, that would be useful, then. :o
there was a report that a 911 recording has the audio of the confrontation.
Metro will not release any audio or video evidence until the Coroner's Inquest has made it's determination, supposed to be September. By then everyone's A.D.D. will have kicked in and they'll be paying attention to something else going on in the news while this gets stuck on the 4th page of the LVRJ.
CarlosDJackal
07-15-10, 13:29
This raises another issue.
Remember the game of "telephone" that kids play in grade school? You sit in a circle and one person whispers a sentence into the ear of the next, then that person repeats it to the next person, and by the time it goes full circle it's completely changed.
Adults do this, too. Store employees sees guy doing something, tells it to manager one way, who tells it to dispatcher another way, who tells it to officers another way, and so on.
This shit must happen every day. This is not an attempt to MMQB this situation, but a general comment that one should not rely on the characterizations of another regarding these situations. What the dispatcher hears from someone who heard it from someone else is not gospel. In fact, I'd make a more than educated guess that it's embellished, borderline bullshit a large percentage of the time.
Agreed. I'm willing to bet that by the time the responding Officers received the message it went from what the COSTCO employee actually saw. While the employee probably observed "a man who was opening drink packages and carrying a gun under his shirt" which was probably reported to the Supervisor as a "rude man who was carrying a gun on his waist and unpacking inventory". This was probably eventually relayed by the dispatcher as "Heavily armed and aggressive suspect who had a gun and was destroying store property - store evacuated".
This is why when you call 9-1-1 you need to remember to be as clear and concise as possible because Dispatchers are trained to home in on certain words (IE: Gun, Destroying, Belligerent, etc.).
woodandsteel
07-15-10, 13:50
I hope nothing I've said is construed to be disparaging police officers. I'm merely pointing out that LVMPD has a history of questionable shoots and cover ups, and the way the coroner's inquest is set up it heavily favors Metro.
I didn't take it that way and you do have a valid point concerning Metro.
EDIT: If people are curious as to what Rider and I had alluded to I suggest Googling James Manor (RIP) and Calvin Darling. The case does not involve a shooting but does show evidence of a cover up by Metro concerning Officer Manor driving 109mph on a 45mph major road without using lights or sirens, Metro claimed he was running both at the time. Mr. Darling was arrested, jailed and had his reputation slandered due to the lies of a fellow officer and their slanted "investigation". By no means am I trying to paint all of Metro with the same brush but there are a few who do some shady shit and if you practice your Google-Fu you'll get a full understanding.
I think you guys are fine with your comments/assessments of the situation. You both are from the area and have a better feel for what is going on there.
There may be some MMQB'ing going on in this thread. But, it could prove to be useful and educational for those who are LEOs and those who CCW.
I know that it is almost a given that if I ask someone if they have a weapon, especially if they are legally carrying one, they will reach for the weapon while telling me that they do have one. They do so in a manner as if to say; "Yes I have a weapon. Here, you can have it". I have also been in incidents where there are more than one officer giving opposite commands to a suspect.
I fell bad for all parties involved in this tragic incident. I'm hoping for a clear and accurate explanation of exactly what happened.
I am surprised that the same agency that was involved in the shooting is the same one investigating it.
I think you guys are fine with your comments/assessments of the situation. You both are from the area and have a better feel for what is going on there.
There may be some MMQB'ing going on in this thread. But, it could prove to be useful and educational for those who are LEOs and those who CCW.
I fell bad for all parties involved in this tragic incident. I'm hoping for a clear and accurate explanation of exactly what happened.
I am surprised that the same agency that was involved in the shooting is the same one investigating it.
In my opinion if they were to release any and all audio/video recordings made of the incident it would clear up a lot of the public's scrutiny involving this case. At a minimum there are dash cams in Metro's cars and the 911 call was recorded as well. Off the top of my head I can think of a few possible more recordings such as COSTCO surveillance cameras, LEO on person recording devices (tape recorder) and offical police reports of the incident.
I realize there is a investigation pending but releasing any recordings would either exonerate or condemn the officers involved and withholding that information only fuels speculation and encourages an anti-Metro attitude within the populace.
Another problem you run into in this town is the lack of familiarity with firearms and firearm laws among Metro. I've run into quite a few Metro officers who have no understanding of CCW laws, to the point where I won't notify an officer anymore during a traffic stop that I'm CCWing, unless asked (law doesn't require it). I just turn the interior light on and leave my hands in view. Better this than getting yanked out of the car at gunpoint after politely handing my permit to the officer (happened twice already).
John Hearne
07-16-10, 10:32
So it's not always as easy as "doing what you're told." The lesson here to me is that if I'm not already holding a gun, I'm not reaching for one regardless of whether somebody yells at me to do otherwise.
There's some research out there where they deliberately created ambiguous shoot/no-shoot scenarios. The least likely way to get shot is to have your hands above your head, palms forward, and fingers spread. The researchers also found that clothing had a big influence on the snap shoot/no-shoot decision. Clothing that confers social status reduces your chances of getting shot.
sigh...this whole deal is just sad.
It's hard to understand how an educated warrior who you would think has an understanding of LEO's concerns & reactions could end up dead in this case.
hurry up & wait....
There's some research out there where they deliberately created ambiguous shoot/no-shoot scenarios. The least likely way to get shot is to have your hands above your head, palms forward, and fingers spread. The researchers also found that clothing had a big influence on the snap shoot/no-shoot decision. Clothing that confers social status reduces your chances of getting shot.
That confirms everything that I have always suspected.
With regard to hands, that is exactly what my plan has always been if I have uniformed officers drawn down on me for any reason.
The clothing stuff also makes perfect sense. People make conscious and subconscious judgments based on how one is dressed all the time. It's one reason why I wear slacks, a jacket, and loafers to the airport even if I'm just going on vacation. You simply get treated better. I'm constantly amazed by the way some people dress when they fly.
I'm also unfortunate enough to have to wear a suit, or a coat and tie, pretty much every day at work - but the upside is that if I am ever "made," just about anybody seeing me is less likely to be scared shitless and may even falsely assume I'm plainclothes LE based on my dress. I do nothing at all to cultivate the false impression that I am LE aside from dressing as I must for my line of work, but I can't control the silent impressions of others and it is a benefit in some situations.
What a tragedy... I hope that store clerk gets arrested for filling a false police report when the facts become public. Amazing how a human can become conditioned to fear a piece of steel...
I have no doubt the LEO's involved also feel awful about how this turned out...
sigh...this whole deal is just sad.
It's hard to understand how an educated warrior who you would think has an understanding of LEO's concerns & reactions could end up dead in this case.
hurry up & wait....
Its real easy to understand. All one needs is a reasonable IQ. Also, close relatives and lifelong friends who have spent decades or who are currently "on the job", with PLENTY of experience in the responding to just such situations, help with understanding of the responding officers psychological aspect. Any amount of "keyed up" officers with weapons drawn down on the "suspected law abiding" citizen. Yes, the 2nd amendment is the SUPREME LAW despite what the current crop of criminals...oops I mean Politicians who have you believe. Actually the 2A was put in place to safeguard the "free" citizentry from a tyrannical government. What a shame that this good, quality American patriot could have travelled to foreign lands in the name of freedom loving America only come home and be gunned down on on orders from self-serving, law breaking politicians.
The fact that people try to stand back and be PC only further damages the limited freedom they currently enjoy. Theres and old saying that goes like this "It is what it is". Lets not dishonor this fine genlelmans needless death with the good old government excuse (this excuse only works for them I might add. Joes sixpack gets slammed in jail and is guilty until proven innocent or just gunned down like this poor guy.) "That we have to wait til all the facts come out" . That would be wonderful if thats what they were truly intent on doing. The translation is "We screwed up royally and we have to buy ourdselves some time til you nitwits (us, the public) get distracted by the next "American Idle" winner and totally forgets about this unnecessary tragedy".
The FACTS are the FACTS. There is no TALKING or DEBATING AROUND them.(which has become so commonplace in this country nowadays, its stomach turning). Fact number one. A man of uncommon character (Military Officer), exercises one of the very rights he put his own life on the line to protect. A right that is GUARANTEED by the CONSTITUTION, and somehow winds up dead. I dont see any great mystery here.(despite the governments best efforts to make the public chase its own tail on this case).
IT IS WHAT IT IS. Plain and simple.
Disclaimer: I'm sure some people will get their panties in a bunch over such truthful observations. Oh well. Too bad. I'm sick and tired of people (just like Al Sharpton and the race baiters do and say about racial relations) saying that any critiquing of LEO means your a cop hater. Thats a tired, worn out, one size fits all answer that the public, (who I might add, the Founding Fathers made the boss' of this Republic) is getting tired of hearing. In a free society, there is accountability. Not to mention that there are lawyers attached to every bullet.
Some Dept.'s need to come up to speed with their training of officers. This whole Vegas story reminds me of a video I watched on Youtube several years ago on Vegas Metro making an arrest. A female officer had an Accidental Discharge while covering the suspect. There was another male officer in extremely close proximity to where her round impacted. If I were that male officer who almost got shot by another officers negligence, I would be infuriated.
Anyway, shitty situation for all involved. I'd love to stay here and waste time typing but I have a real life to attend to. Good afternoon Gents.
Here's my question. In these types of situations, isn't it SOP that one officer, and one officer only, issue commands so as to avoid any confusion by either the suspect or other officers on the scene?
It's supposed to be, and it's a current norm in better training programs. One person gives commands. Everyone else should shut up.
The clothing stuff also makes perfect sense. People make conscious and subconscious judgments based on how one is dressed all the time. It's one reason why I wear slacks, a jacket, and loafers to the airport even if I'm just going on vacation. You simply get treated better. I'm constantly amazed by the way some people dress when they fly.
Absolutely true. Add tatts, jewelry, general grooming, and like variables to that list too.
What a tragedy... I hope that store clerk gets arrested for filling a false police report when the facts become public.
Why don't we just hope that when all the facts become known, that justice is done. The chips will fall where they do.
CarlosDJackal
07-16-10, 14:54
Another problem you run into in this town is the lack of familiarity with firearms and firearm laws among Metro. I've run into quite a few Metro officers who have no understanding of CCW laws, to the point where I won't notify an officer anymore during a traffic stop that I'm CCWing, unless asked (law doesn't require it). I just turn the interior light on and leave my hands in view. Better this than getting yanked out of the car at gunpoint after politely handing my permit to the officer (happened twice already).
This is an issue at just about every jurisdiction in these United States. In some cases, the very individuals (IE: Prosecutors and Judges) are just as ignorant. Despite what the current potus and his doj lapdawg might believe, lawyers are just as human as cops and store clerks.
QuickStrike
07-16-10, 16:36
I became pretty agitated after reading this.
Never reach for anything and lay down slowly I guess...
decodeddiesel
07-16-10, 20:15
Why don't we just hope that when all the facts become known, that justice is done. The chips will fall where they do.
I agree.
ThirdWatcher
07-16-10, 20:44
Why don't we just hope that when all the facts become known, that justice is done. The chips will fall where they do.
I also agree with you.
Unfortunately, based on Metro's track record, all the facts may never become known.
John_Wayne777
07-17-10, 01:52
Somebody on TOS claims to have found the radio traffic from this event from a scanner archive site and has produced a transcript:
Dispatcher: Units in V3, a 413 at Costco, 801 S. Pavillion Center. The male is inside the business to the rear of, has a 413 that's tucked into the back of his pants. We're still landline. (6:53)
K916: K916 back on channel. (7:03)
D: K916 (7:04)
AIR5: AIR5, we're going to go to the Costco first. (7:11)
D: AIR5, copy. (7:14)
2X12: 2X12 (7:20)
D: 2X12 (7:21)
2X12: You can disregard the air unit, I see customers coming out (related to a seperate 407A) (7:25)
D: 2X12 copy. K914, if you could be en route with AIR5 on the 413 at Costco in V3, 801 S. Pavillion Center. (7:35)
K916: K916, you can assign me as well. (7:42)
D: K916, copy. (7:44)
D: 2V16, if you'll also be en route on the 413 at Costco, 801 S. Pavillion Center. The male inside the business is acting erratic, throwing merchandise around, possibly high on unknown type of 446. (8:03)
2V16: 2V16 copy, from the Suncoast. (8:07)
D: 2V16, they are requesting CIT. Male is possibly ED. 767, did you copy? (8:16)
767: Put me en route to that please. (8:19)
D: 767. (8:21)
2DP62: 2DP62, clear me and show me en route. (8:25)
D: 2DP62. (8:26)
767: 767 (8:37)
D: 767. (8:38)
767: Go ahead and have medical en route also, just to stand by for us. (8:41)
D: 767, copy. (8:42)
2V55: 2V55, can you clear me B-baker and show me en route to Costco. (8:53)
D: 2V55, affirmative. (8:56)
2V16: 2V16 en route code. (8:58)
D: 2V16 (9:00)
2V55: 2V55, same traffic. (9:04)
D: 2V55 (9:05)
351WC: 351. (9:11)
D: 351 (9:12)
351WC: Have those units shut down code when they get close. Let's not get this guy more exicted than he already is. (9:18)
D: 351, copy. Units, shut down code when you get close to the Costco. (pause) (9:23)
D: Units en route on the 413 at Costco, 801 S. Pavillion Center, suspect's described as a White male, 32, 5'8, medium build, red hair, wearing a gray t-shirt, blue jeans, and white shoes, break. A black 9MM is tucked to the rear of his pants. (pause) (9:53)
D: 767, could you advise where you'd like medical to stage for now? (10:46)
767: Just have them stage, uh to the nearest intersection to that Costco. If you could have them not roll code, that'd be great also. (10:57)
D: 767 copy. Did you want other units to shut down code? (11:02)
767: I just want everybody to shut it down before they get close to that area; I don't want to spook this guy. (11:08)
D: Okay, copy. All units, justs reminding to shut down code when you get close to the area. (11:13)
767: 767 (11:18)
D: 767 (11:20)
767: I need a few more units that could head to that area also, so that we can shut down that parking lot so that nobody goes in or out of there. (11:28)
D: 767, copy. (11:31)
2X12: 2X12, you can assign me. (11:33)
D: 2X12 (11:35)
2X65: 2X65, same traffic. (11:43)
D: 2X65 (11:45)
351WC: Control, 351, where's the CP going to be? (11:49)
D: 767, can you advise? (11:54)
767: I'm not even close to there right now, so if we have a unit that's in there that could set up one real quick, that'd be great. (12:01)
2V54: 2V54, I'm arriving in the Costco parking lot, where do you want me? (12:07)
D: 2V54, at this time uh, I guess heading up a CP. (12:16)
AIR5: AIR5, did you have any further at all? (12:22)
D: It looks like the subject is still inside the business, argumentative with the manager who asked him to leave, telling him there's no 413's allowed inside the business, break. The manager is a Green Beret and is allowed to carry a 413. He's throwing merchandise around; he's still in isle 126 in the camping area, break. He appears to be fidgety. A female joined the male. She's described as Hispanic, 30s, black long hair, wearing black tank and blue jeans. Security's going to be standing outside the business in front of, to wait for officers to direct, break. He's walking through the camping area towards the front of the business on the main isle. (13:18)
2V54: 2V54, did you want me to stop people from going in the business? (13:22)
D: Uh 767, that's affirmative. Stop in or out? (13:26)
767: Affirm. (13:28)
D: V54, affirmative, uh V54, did you want a red? (13:32)
2V54: Hold off for a moment. (13:34)
D: Okay, copy. (13:35)
2X65: Control, 2X65 (13:37)
D: 2X65 (13:38)
2X65: Run this by the WC and Sarge. If we could get the management and employees to start slowly evacuating people out of the business without alerting anybody, that'd be a great idea. (13:50)
351WC: Control, 351WC, absolutely. (13:53)
D: Acknowledge that. (13:57)
2V54: 2V54, manager says it's escalating inside and he's still talking loudly and destroying merchandise. (14:06)
D: 2V54, copy. 2V54, are you able to get security started on exacuations? (14:14)
2V54: Affirm (14:16)
D: Okay, copy. (14:17)
2V16: 2V16, I'm out with 2V54. (14:55)
D: 2V16 (14:57)
Unknown bit of traffic (14:59)
D: All units, code red this channel. Officers arriving on the 413 at Costco, 801 S. Pavillion Center. (15:07)
2V16: 2V16, we need units to clear these people out of here. We're attempting to evacuate right now; get as many people out as possible. (15:45)
D: 2V16, copy. (15:47)
351WC: 351WC, where's the CP? (16:45)
D: Uh 2V54, can you advise location of CP? (16:50)
AIR5: AIR5, they're both right in the front entrance to the store. (16:55)
D: AIR5, copy. (16:57)
784: 767, 784 I'm arrived. What can I help you out with? (17:07)
767: You can set up the CP, that'd be great. (17:10)
784: : Copy, I'll set one up. (17:15)
AIR5: AIR5, are we still landline with anyone who has eyes on this guy, because there's a lot of people pouring out of the store. I just want to make sure he doesn't slip out. (17:28)
2V16: We got 2 officers here at the front doors watching everybody come out. (17:36)
D: 2V16, copy. AIR5, it looks like we're still landline. It looks like the male is still being watched by inside personnel due to him ripping open packages. They're concerned of a 414A. (17:49)
2V16: Copy, we've got a very orderly evacuation going on right now. We'll try to get all these people out of here and then figure out what we're going to do next. (18:00)
D: 2V16. (18:01)
2V54: He's directly in the middle of the building. (18:08)
D: Okay, copy. Confirming suspect's directly in the center of the building? (18:14)
2V54: ___ isle. (18:16)
D: You broke on the isle, could you re-advise? (18:20)
784: 784, copy location for IC. (18:31)
D: 784 (18:32)
784: It's going to be set up at the northwest parking lot at the Red Rock Casino across Charleston. It'll be the Costco command. I'll be incident commander until the arrival of 351WC. (18:46)
D: 784 copy. 351WC, incident command at northwest parking lot of Red Rock Casino across Charleston. (18:55)
AIR5: Control, AIR5, we need 1 unit to take the north side of the Costco please, right off of Pavillion Center so they can keepy an eye on the back and the east side. (19:02)
2V16: (yell) 2V16, we got shots fired, shots fired! (19:11)
D: 2V16, copy. Anyone down? (19:12)
2V16: Roll medical. (19:13)
D: 2V16. (19:15)
767: Go ahead and make the notifications. (19:19)
2V16: Notify supervisor. (19:21)
D: 2V16, copy. (19:22)
351WC: 351WC, I'm arrived, south end of the building. Is it safe for everybody else to enter the building? (19:28)
D: 2V16, can you advise? (19:30)
2V16: He pulled a 413 and pointed it in my direction. (19:38)
D: 2V16, copy. (19:40)
767: 767, can yu go ahead and make your notifications, please? (19:43)
D: 767, copy. (19:45)
767: Shut that parking lot down, please. (19:47)
D: Units arriving on the 413, shut down the parking lot. (19:51)
AIR5: They've got him out front, they're taking him into custody. Hold the traffic. (19:57)
D: AIR5, copy. Subject is out front, taking into custody. (20:01)
767: 767, let's make sure nobody else exit's that Costco right now. We may need to pull witness statements. (20:17)
D: 767, copy. Units, make sure no one else exits the Costco, they may need for witness purposes. (20:24)
784: Copy that they're taking him into custody. We're going to move the CP closer to the Burger King directly across from the Costco. (20:35)
D: Copy that, CP will be moving closer to the Burger King (20:39)
Short story: Costco employees reported an agitated dude with a gun smashing the place up, possibly high, possibly emotionally disturbed.
...which again confirms why I don't want to be the subject of a 911 man-with-a-gun call, because you never know what hysterical crap the caller is going to tell the PD.
ChicagoTex
07-17-10, 04:35
The manager is a Green Beret:blink: and is allowed to carry a 413.
He pulled a 413 and pointed it in my direction.
:stop: I am highly skeptical on both these points.
From what I know of Metro radio traffic the transcript seems correct.
Prolly won't happen unfortunately.
Nor should it. She didn't press the trigger; the officer(s) did.
Was her actions complicit in "setting this unfortunate series of events" into motion? Sure. Her intent was not to have the guy shot or killed. Some will vehemently disagree and some will quietly agree but we've militarized our nation - especially since 9/11 and it will be a very long road back to sanity (assuming we don't end up where some in gov't would like us to be...).
There were probably conflicting commands; there was probably a "lot of things" that most of us cannot comprehend since we lack the experience and this PARTICULAR circumstance. All I know is that I miss the PEACE OFFICER and yearn for the good ol days where everyone (especially the public) wasn't so damned confrontational and violent.
The manager is a Green Beret and is allowed to carry a 413.
I assume a 413 is a firearm?
That is the problem. We must be "allowed" to exercise or God-given rights (which are now recognized civil rights as well). That mindset in the police dispatchers language is kind of scary. Seems like an "us vs them"
Yeah, I am a MMQB
sorry for the diversion
Video of Metro Sheriff talking about deadly force: http://www.lvrj.com/multimedia/Sheriff-Gillespie-speaks-to-the-media-regarding-the-use-of-deadly-force-98642294.html
Recent article: http://www.8newsnow.com/global/story.asp?s=12825846&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+lasvegasnow%2Fhomepage+%288NewsNOW.com+-+Local+Headlines%29
LAS VEGAS - Two officer-involved shootings, only days apart. Metro Police shot two suspects in separate incidents over the past week. One of the shootings resulted in death.
"No officer wants an encounter to end in that manner," Metro Police Sheriff Doug Gillespie said.
Metro officers shot and killed Erik Scott at a Costco in Summerlin last week. Officers responded to a call that Scott was acting erratically in the store and that he was carrying a firearm. Scott was licensed to carry a concealed weapon.
Police say when they arrived, Scott refused to comply with their commands and that he pointed his weapon at the officers. Police shot and killed him. Some witnesses are disputing Metro's version of events.
Gillespie, meanwhile, is not commenting on specifics until a coroner's inquest is complete. "I know some lack confidence in the coroner's inquest process, but it is the process that we have," he said.
Nevada ACLU attorney Allen Lichtenstein believes it's a process with plenty of problems. "To call it a flawed process would be giving it too much credit," he said. "There's a reason why in all the years these have been going on, the police have been exonerated virtually always."
Lichtenstein says families of victims are often unable to get questions answered, and details about the case are never publicly revealed. "It is a totally horrible process which is sort of like hearing one side of an issue," Lichtenstein said.
The sheriff, however, says checks and balances are involved in the process. "Allow the processes to work, because they are there for a reason," he said. He asks the public not to draw conclusions until the inquests take their course. "What I ask for is for patience and trust as these cases go through the adjudication process," Sheriff Gillespie said.
Others, meanwhile, want a new process. "That at the end of the process, they're going truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth, no matter whose toes are stepped on," Lichtenstein said.
The suspect from Thursday night's shooting is still alive. So far this year, Metro has had 17 officer-involved shootings. That's up two from last year. 17 is about the average they see per year.
http://www.lvrj.com/news/affidavit-alleges-detective-bought-marijuana-from-man-officer-killed-98658969.html
In four transactions over five weeks, an undercover detective bought $840 in marijuana from Trevon Cole, according to a search warrant affidavit unsealed Friday.
Those drug deals -- which totaled 1.8 ounces of marijuana -- led to a late-night police raid on Cole's East Bonanza Road apartment June 11, where the 21-year-old was shot and killed by Las Vegas police detective Bryan Yant.
According to the affidavit, which was unsealed after an attorney for Cole's family filed a court motion, an undercover detective first made contact with a suspect known as "Big," later identified as Cole, on April 28.
Cole and the detective met in the area of Desert Inn and Fort Apache roads, where 4.1 grams of marijuana changed hands for $60.
The affidavit said the detective and Cole met again on May 19 near Cole's apartment complex, where the detective bought 21.5 grams of marijuana, paying Cole $380.
The detective again contacted Cole on May 26 and June 3, looking to buy almost $400 in marijuana. Cole did not have enough marijuana in May and said he needed to contact his supplier, the affidavit said.
In June, Cole sold $400 worth of marijuana -- 27.2 grams -- to the detective.
In the affidavit, Yant wrote that police considered it likely that the raid would turn up more drugs, scales, bags and elaborate records such as "owe" sheets related to narcotic sales.
Yant also wrote that Cole had a "lengthy criminal history" for drug trafficking in both Houston and Los Angeles, and would have firearms to protect his drugs and money. A night raid would be preferable, Yant wrote, to ensure the safety of children and other residents in the complex.
Andre Lagomarsino, the attorney representing Cole's fiancee and family, said there were several errors in the affidavit -- that Cole had no criminal history and was actually out of state on May 19, when police claimed to have bought marijuana from him.
The family told the attorney that Cole was in Los Angeles for his fiancee's baby shower. Family picked him up at an L.A. bus station on May 14, and the couple returned to Las Vegas on May 20, he said.
The attorney also noted that the marijuana buys were small, and police recovered little in the raid.
According to the search warrant return, officers seized an undisclosed amount of marijuana, digital scales and $702 in cash, but found no transaction records or weapons.
"No matter what the search warrant says, it doesn't contain a justification for shooting an unarmed man in the face with an assault rifle," Lagomarsino said.
Cole's fiancee has said Cole was unarmed, was on his knees in a bathroom and had his hands raised when Yant fired a single shot from an AR-15 rifle, striking him in the head.
Police said in a statement that Cole made a "furtive movement" toward the officer.
It was Yant's third shooting -- and second fatal shooting -- in 10 years with the department. In 2002, an inquest jury ruled Yant's fatal shooting of Richard Travis Brown was justified despite a serious discrepancy between his story and evidence at the scene.
A coroner's inquest on Cole's death is set for Aug. 20.
This is why I don't trust LVMPD. I've lived in other cities, they had fine police departments. Heck LVMPD has some great officers, even the ones who have pulled me over :P But the departments mentality seems to be stuck in the days of the mob, while the rest of Vegas has evolved metro still has some work to do.
The sheriff, however, says checks and balances are involved in the process. "Allow the processes to work, because they are there for a reason," he said. He asks the public not to draw conclusions until the inquests take their course. "What I ask for is for patience and trust as these cases go through the adjudication process," Sheriff Gillespie said.
This is the same Sheriff who said during the 2006 elections that he supported Katrina-style gun confiscations in the event of a natural disaster. He's also the same guy who taught ethics at the academy, where new officers are taught not to accept free stuff that's offered to them because they're cops. Yet when he was undersheriff to Sheriff Young he got free access to the VIP owner's box at the Las Vegas Speedway and in exchange the Speedway got free cops at their big events without paying the officers' overtime, like other venues have to. He, Sheriff Young, and some of their buddies also received a free $10,000 table at the nightclub I worked at in 2006, then before the election all the club employees were called by corporate and it was "suggested" that we vote for Gillespie. Metro policy is that sworn officers can't accept these perks.
So no, I'm not going to trust this guy. :no:
The memorial for Erik Scott was yesterday: http://www.lvrj.com/news/man-killed-by-police-in-costco-shooting-remembered-at-memorial-98695649.html?ref=649
http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/7318/464829704.jpg
Erik Scott ran with the bulls in Pamplona and jumped out of airplanes while training to be a paratrooper.
A West Point graduate who commanded battle tanks, every*thing he did in life he did with zeal.
"He reached for the stars and always wanted that new challenge," said his mother, Linda Scott, one week to the day after he was shot and killed by Las Vegas police officers.
Now, she said, her eldest son is perfecting his soul in a different dimension.
Hundreds of Scott's family and friends gathered Saturday at the Las Vegas Country Club to celebrate a life that was full of adventure and achievement. Some also expressed anger and frustration over how that life came to an end.
Kevin Scott called his brother's death senseless and said it would be difficult to live his life without him.
"I feel extremely sad that my brother won't get the chance to be a good uncle to my son," he said. "He won't get a chance to have a family of his own."
Erik Scott, 38, was fatally shot by three officers outside the entrance of a busy Costco in Summerlin on July 10.
Police said they were originally called to the store because they received reports from store workers about an armed man acting erratically. Police said Scott, who had a concealed weapons permit, ignored commands to put up his hands and drop to the ground, and instead pointed a pistol at them.
Terrance Robinson, a friend of Scott's for three years, who also has a concealed carry permit, said Scott knew better than to point a gun at police.
"It's a complete bogus story they made up," Robinson said.
Another friend, Dave Sundaram, said Scott wasn't one to disobey authority.
"There's no one who knew Eric that could ever conceive of him acting in a way that is defiant to a man in uniform," Sundaram said. "He was a man who supported those guys."
Police said they have spoken to 40 witnesses, and more than a dozen said they saw Scott pull out a handgun. The Review-Journal has interviewed seven witnesses. Three said Scott drew a gun, but none said they saw him point it at police officers.
Clark County Sheriff Doug Gillespie on Friday urged the public to remain patient while his department investigates the Costco incident and other recent police shootings.
"In policing, one thing I've learned over the years is don't rush the processes," he said. "Let the processes work because they are there for a reason.
Throughout Saturday's service, Scott was regaled as a leader who influenced those he met.
Chuck Lang, a childhood friend, said Scott convinced him to join the Army. He also encouraged him to go into sales and to get a college degree when he didn't know what he wanted in life.
Family friend Lee Ann Pusateri said Scott did well with the ladies.
"So Erik was smart and he was kind and he was muscular," Pusateri said. "And he was courageous. And he was funny. And he was muscular. ..."
Kirk Day, Scott's team leader at West Point, described him as "like Elvis Presley with red hair."
Day said Scott was selfless, and touched the lives of many people.
"As a son, brother, friend and soldier, Erik always left behind far, far more than he ever took."
Scott, who was born at Mather Air Force Base in Sacramento, Calif., graduated in 1994 in the top 10 percent of his class from West Point and made the dean's list while majoring in Spanish.
He became a tank commander, but he left the Army two years later as the military began its post-Cold War contraction. He later obtained a master's degree in business administration from Duke University.
In Las Vegas, he sold medical devices and dabbled in real estate. Most recently, Scott worked as a sales representative for Boston Scientific, a medical devices manufacturer.
Pusateri read a letter from Scott's girlfriend, Samantha, who was with him when he died. Though she attended the memorial, Samantha did not speak to the crowd, nor was her last name given. In her letter, she wrote that she and Scott were in love and planned to live long together.
"He always told me he finally under*stood how his father felt about his mother," she wrote. "It breaks my heart that I'll never be able to tell, what would have been our future children, the same story about us."
Scott's body will be cremated and his ashes will be scattered in the Pacific Ocean. Saturday's memorial ended with the playing of 'Taps" during an honor guard ceremony in which his mother was presented the American flag.
The Costco in northwest Tucson, where my family shops, definitely prohibits firearms. A large 3x6 sign is posted at the front entrance.
I have been to several COSTCO's and I frequent the one near my house all the time. I have never seen a no firearms allowed sign. I have even been to one in Vegas, same thing.
The Costco in northwest Tucson, where my family shops, definitely prohibits firearms. A large 3x6 sign is posted at the front entrance.
Do these signs have any legal standing in the state?
I'm not an expert on CCW laws here in Arizona (I should be more knowledgeable), but I believe that the signs have legal standing. The CCW class instructor told us that if a business posts a sign prohibiting firearms, then we cannot legally enter with a firearm. We were also told during the class, that if we were asked by a business to leave after being made, then we should comply and respect their wishes.
The class was taken before Arizona passed new concealed carry laws in the state allowing concealed carry without a CCW permit. I don't know if that changed anything and I've been CCWing as I've been instructed.
The Sheriffs and PD that I have dealt with have been quite nice about the CCW thing. I was stopped once for an administrative stop (illegal to have a license plate frame that covered "Arizona" on the plate), the Marana police officer asked me if I had a gun on me after I showed him my CCW card, I told him no (I didn't), I got a warning and he let me go on my way.
Second stop was with my wife (she was driving) for speeding (going 40mph in a 30mph). The gun was locked in the glove compartment (departing a sports bar after having a beer) with the insurance and registration. Sheriff's deputy told us just to leave the gun in there and not to bother getting the insurance and registration...she still got the ticket, but we didn't get hassled about the gun.
Do these signs have any legal standing in the state?
Sorry but i have to go with the impression that it was very poorly handled by the LEO, and that reflects more on the department, then the individual officers. Agreed, all the facts are not out, nor do i think they ever will be, but it was poorly handled. I've worked with officers that dealt with excited delirium cases, and knew how to work the situation so that everyone went home. Other officers i've hated to see roll up on on a scene because they seem to thrive on escalating the situation until it gets physical or beyond. Training, department attitude, accountability, and support. My daughter who recently graduated and was hired onto a city deparment (patrol officer), is having some heated discussions with my father who retired after 30 years with the State Police, on this case. At least they agree that Erik's death is tragedy and hope that his family can find peace at some point.
Sorry but i have to go with the impression that it was very poorly handled by the LEO, and that reflects more on the department, then the individual officers. Agreed, all the facts are not out, nor do i think they ever will be, but it was poorly handled.
I think there's too many unknowns to conclude anything, for better or worse, about any party involved.
I think there's too many unknowns to conclude anything, for better or worse, about any party involved.
I couldn't agree more. I have my own personal reservations but will wait to see how everything pans out. I'll also post anything new that I find in the news relating to the incident or the Coroner's Inquest.
We could hypothetical this type of thing to death, but let's consider something else here:
For a moment, disregard that Erik Scott is a West Point grad and a vet. What if he was Joe Blow, but still a distinguished graduate of someplace more common like UNLV, selling medical devices, that people lined up to say nice things about? Does that change first impressions formed or the scope in which people are contemplating the issues?
For a moment, disregard that Erik Scott is a West Point grad and a vet. What if he was Joe Blow, but still a distinguished graduate of someplace more common like UNLV, selling medical devices, that people lined up to say nice things about? Does that change first impressions formed or the scope in which people are contemplating the issues?
I'll admit to being biased due to his background, that the police had no idea about, but I've tried to remain as neutral as I can be. I would still be questioning everything that happened due to the amount of "furtive movement" incidents Vegas Metro has had in the past couple of years and the following Coroner's Inquests that exonerated them after killing several unarmed people. I'm at the airport so can't go into too much more right now but our system of reviewing OIS is lacking a lot.
Nor should it. She didn't press the trigger; the officer(s) did.
Was her actions complicit in "setting this unfortunate series of events" into motion? Sure. Her intent was not to have the guy shot or killed. Some will vehemently disagree and some will quietly agree but we've militarized our nation - especially since 9/11 and it will be a very long road back to sanity (assuming we don't end up where some in gov't would like us to be...).
There were probably conflicting commands; there was probably a "lot of things" that most of us cannot comprehend since we lack the experience and this PARTICULAR circumstance. All I know is that I miss the PEACE OFFICER and yearn for the good ol days where everyone (especially the public) wasn't so damned confrontational and violent.
You don't have to pull the trigger to be charged with murder. I read an article a while back about two thugs who entered a convenience store to rob the store. The store owner shot one of the thugs and he died. The other bad guy fled the scene and was apprehended a short time later. He was charged with 1st degree murder of his friend, even though he never shot a single round.
They said since he planned the robbery, his actions lead to the death of his friend and therefore qualifies as first degree murder.
You don't have to pull the trigger to be charged with murder. I read an article a while back about two thugs who entered a convenience store to rob the store. The store owner shot one of the thugs and he died. The other bad guy fled the scene and was apprehended a short time later. He was charged with 1st degree murder of his friend, even though he never shot a single round.
They said since he planned the robbery, his actions lead to the death of his friend and therefore qualifies as first degree murder.
That doesn't really apply to this. We have that type of charge here, they call it the death of an accomplice while in the commission of a crime. Its a 2nd degree murder charge.
That doesn't really apply to this. We have that type of charge here, they call it the death of an accomplice while in the commission of a crime. Its a 2nd degree murder charge.
Oh okay, that makes sense. The way it looked in the article made it sound that if your actions regardless of the situation resulted in the death of someone, then it was murder.
You don't have to pull the trigger to be charged with murder. I read an article a while back about two thugs who entered a convenience store to rob the store. The store owner shot one of the thugs and he died. The other bad guy fled the scene and was apprehended a short time later. He was charged with 1st degree murder of his friend, even though he never shot a single round.
They said since he planned the robbery, his actions lead to the death of his friend and therefore qualifies as first degree murder.
Whatever happened to personal responsibility?
Sorry but i have to go with the impression that it was very poorly handled by the LEO, and that reflects more on the department, then the individual officers. Agreed, all the facts are not out, nor do i think they ever will be, but it was poorly handled. I've worked with officers that dealt with excited delirium cases, and knew how to work the situation so that everyone went home. Other officers i've hated to see roll up on on a scene because they seem to thrive on escalating the situation until it gets physical or beyond. Training, department attitude, accountability, and support. My daughter who recently graduated and was hired onto a city deparment (patrol officer), is having some heated discussions with my father who retired after 30 years with the State Police, on this case. At least they agree that Erik's death is tragedy and hope that his family can find peace at some point.
I don't see how anyone can logically look at the whole picture and come away with that impression. If you looked only at the few seconds leading up to the actual triggers being pulled then maybe...and that's a pretty damn big maybe.
However if you start at the beginning I think you'd realize that several things went wrong which lead to this terrible incident. From the store clerk, to the phone call and possible exaggerations to the customers being evacuated this was going wrong from the get go so to blame one party is premature in my opinion.
The main thing I want out of all of this is the truth and facts. If the officers f'ed up, I want to know. If Erik f'ed up, I want to know too. If it was a combination of both, I want to know. As I've said before, the inquest process here is a cluster****, Metro has a history of coverups and officers being exonerated in highly questionable shootings (suspects being shot while in handcuffs, as I've also mentioned). Its more than likely that none of these questions are going to be answered, the inquest is going to find these officers to have done no wrong, and Metro will continue along its merry way. That's what I'm angry about.
parishioner
07-20-10, 20:08
Not sure if this has been covered already or if its even a known fact but do we know if the victim's firearm was still retained in the holster at the time of him being shot or was it in his hands?
Not sure if this has been covered already or if its even a known fact but do we know if the victim's firearm was still retained in the holster at the time of him being shot or was it in his hands?
There are conflicting accounts from police and witnesses alike.
The_War_Wagon
07-21-10, 07:16
If Costco clerks are such pansy-asses, I think the solution is - screw Costco. :mad: I'll shop at Sam's Club.
Coroner’s Inquest Set For Costco Shooting (http://www.fox5vegas.com/news/24341069/detail.html)
POSTED: 11:20 am PDT July 21, 2010
UPDATED: 11:49 am PDT July 21, 2010
LAS VEGAS -- The actions of officers who shot and killed a man outside a Summerlin Costco store will be examined during a Coroner’s Inquest hearing Sept. 3, officials said Wednesday.
Rebel Rifle Ordnance
07-21-10, 21:04
Sept 3rd? Couldn't they put this a little higher on the totem pole? The bureaucracy in government is nauseating.
Has any video from Costco been released? I would be interested in seeing if the claims of vandalism are accurate. They have the video and I hope that they release it to clear up any speculation...
This is still being reported on every day here in the local news. One of the reasons that this was/is such big news is that Metro averages 20 OIS per year and we're already up to 18 this year with the latest 3 happening in an 8 day span. http://www.lvrj.com/news/inquest-set-in-shooting-at-costco-99000009.html?ref=009
...Ross Goodman, an attorney representing the Scott family, said he is frustrated with many aspects of how Las Vegas police are handling their investigation of the shooting. He said he wants police to release the 911 recording, with any Costco security camera recordings of the shooting.
"Metro keeps on talking about conflicting witness accounts, but they haven't released the tapes," Goodman said. "Let the truth be told."
Goodman called the upcoming inquest a one-sided process because lawyers for victims' families aren't allowed to call or cross-examine witnesses. He also criticized the inquest as being filtered through the lens of the state.
The inquest process has been heavily criticized, including by the local ACLU, because only once in recent history has an inquest jury not found an officer's actions justified or excusable.
Part of the reason people are opposed to the current Coroner's Inquest procedure. Recent history = 1976.
Has any video from Costco been released? I would be interested in seeing if the claims of vandalism are accurate. They have the video and I hope that they release it to clear up any speculation...
No video, audio or 911 call will be released until after the Coroner's Inquest on 9/3/10 and even that's not a definite.
Nathan_Bell
07-22-10, 11:35
This is still being reported on every day here in the local news. One of the reasons that this was/is such big news is that Metro averages 20 OIS per year and we're already up to 18 this year with the latest 3 happening in an 8 day span. http://www.lvrj.com/news/inquest-set-in-shooting-at-costco-99000009.html?ref=009
Part of the reason people are opposed to the current Coroner's Inquest procedure. Recent history = 1976.
aye, that is a stretch to think that over 600+ OIS are all good shots.
Littlelebowski
07-22-10, 12:48
I listened to the Sheriff's radio interview carefully.
When questioned on whether or not Erik actually did point a gun at the LEOs, the Sheriff went on the fence and political. He stated that all he could say is that the LEOs "felt threatened."
I'd be willing to make a bet on the outcome.
...the Sheriff went on the fence and political...
Yeah, see my previous post about our esteemed sheriff. There's a reason a significant number of voters chose his opponent last time around, a guy with no law enforcement experience.
http://www.fox5vegas.com/news/24347577/detail.html
LAS VEGAS -- In less than two months, two men were shot to death by police. Now it is up to a coroner’s inquest to determine whether the shootings were justified.
The most recent shooting death was that of Erik Scott, 39, who was killed by three police officers outside a Costco in Summerlin.
During a coroner’s inquest, a jury of seven sits in a courtroom as the district attorney questions the police officers and witnesses.
The jury is asked to take into account Metro police’s policy on the use of deadly force, which says, “Members are to fire their weapons only to stop and incapacitate an assailant from completing a potentially deadly act. Members should shoot at the ‘center body mass’ for maximum stopping effectiveness."
The goal is to determine whether the killing was justified or a criminal act.
In 34 years, only one inquest has ruled a police shooting was criminal, but coroner Mike Murphy explained that the district attorney’s office can preempt an inquest and file charges if it wants to.
ACLU attorney Allen Lichtenstein called the inquest an “unfair process.”
Clark County policy doesn’t allow cross examination and comments from the deceased’s family.
“It is pretty much of a whitewash,” Lichtenstein said. “What we have now is an embarrassment.”
But coroner Mike Murphy said the department follows county rules regarding inquests.
“One of things I won't do is sit here and defend the process, because I don't think it's my responsibility,” he said.
The ACLU isn’t satisfied with the status quo and has tried to get Las Vegas Metro Police and the district attorney’s office to change their policy -- to no avail.
Lichtenstein said he wants coroner inquests to be handed over to an independent party.
I'm not a huge ACLU fan but it does give a little more insight into the process.
I'm not a huge ACLU fan but it does give a little more insight into the process.
The NV ACLU actually pissed off the national organization when they issued a statement a few years ago affirming that the 2nd Amendment is an individual right.
Guys, I'm positive the police officers that arrived at this Costco did NOT know this guys background or achievements. It certainly sounds like a bad deal but we don't know the facts regardless of what's been posted. There are at least five sides to this story that will need to be put together before we’ll know what happened.
But I thought officers were given a resume of the individual in question prior to responding to all calls???
The NV ACLU actually pissed off the national organization when they issued a statement a few years ago affirming that the 2nd Amendment is an individual right.
Thanks for the heads up on that. Here's an article about it: http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2008/jul/11/only-nevada-aclu-opposes-gun-control/
CARSON CITY — Everyone loves guns in Nevada. Ducks Unlimited, the National Rifle Association, Republicans, the American Civil Liberties Union, the ...
Wait. The ACLU?
The Nevada ACLU has declared its support for an individual’s right to bear arms, apparently making it the first state affiliate in the nation to buck the national organization’s position on the Second Amendment.
The state board of directors reached the decision this month after the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects the rights of individuals to own handguns.
“The Nevada ACLU respects the individual’s right to bear arms subject to constitutionally permissible regulations,” a statement on the organization’s Web site said. “The ACLU of Nevada will defend this right as it defends other constitutional rights.”
“This was the consensus,” said Allen Lichtenstein, general counsel for ACLU of Nevada. “There really wasn’t a lot of dissent.”
But the state affiliate’s position puts it at odds with the national organization.
The New York City-based ACLU disagrees with the Supreme Court ruling, saying in a statement that it interprets the Second Amendment as a collective right to own guns and not an individual one.
“In our view, neither the possession of guns nor the regulation of guns raises a civil liberties issue,” according to the position on its Web page.
It’s that position that has long infuriated gun rights advocates.
Larry Rhodes, president of the Stillwater Firearms Association, a Northern Nevada advocacy group, said the state ACLU’s position “is a wonderful thing.”
“I’m thrilled the Nevada ACLU, which seems to support the other nine Bill of Rights, has decided to do this,” Rhodes said.
John Cahill, chairman of the Nevada Outdoor Democrats, said he had not been a member of the ACLU because of its position.
“I resented their position on the Second Amendment,” Cahill said. “I’d be happy to be a card-carrying member of the Nevada ACLU.”
The phrase “card-carrying member of the ACLU” has long been used by conservatives as a liberal curse, perhaps most famously against Democratic presidential candidate Michael Dukakis.
Gary Peck, executive director of the ACLU of Nevada, said the decision was not political, nor a slap at the national organization. He said the ACLU of Nevada often defends both conservative and liberal groups when, in its view, a constitutional right is being violated.
“This was a legal, constitutional decision for us,” he said. “Right now, it’s an issue percolating in the ACLU universe. It should be no surprise that an issue that has sparked a lot of issues and debate outside the ACLU has sparked debate inside the ACLU.”
The national ACLU, in a statement by a spokeswoman, said, “ACLU affiliates are free to take positions that differ from those of the national office.”
The spokeswoman said she was unaware of any other ACLU affiliate that had taken a differing position on the Second Amendment.
Peck said the state has a history of opposing government involvement in people’s lives.
“Nevada has a long, proud tradition of libertarian skepticism of government overreach,” Peck said. “An individual’s right to bear arms, not surprisingly, is in the Nevada constitution.”
Even when gun control was a major national issue during the 1990s, Nevada’s strong gun culture knew no party lines.
State Sen. John Lee, a North Las Vegas Democrat, has sponsored a number of bills on people’s right to carry guns.
He pointed to the gun park being built north of Las Vegas, the first phase of which will cost $64 million.
“We’re a hunting state,” Lee said. “Here in Nevada, we’re a real pragmatic group of Democrats.” (Democratic state Sen. Dina Titus, during her run for governor in 2006, liked to point out that she owned a gun.)
Attempts to find a Nevada group or affiliate in favor of stricter gun control were unsuccessful.
Bob Fulkerson, the executive director of the Progressive Leadership Alliance of Nevada, said he did not know of any such organizations in the state.
The gun control issue “has never really come up,” he said. “It’s ironic because we are one of the leaders in handgun-related deaths.”
Ladd Everitt, spokesman for the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, said he recognizes different parts of cultures have different experiences with guns.
“Certain areas of the country have very strong traditions and take great pride in them,” he said. “I think the real shame is we could have better firearm laws without preventing law-abiding citizens from owning guns.”
Peck said he anticipates Nevadans will come to his group to protect their gun rights.
“I have no doubt people will be making inquiries on their rights,” he said. “I have no doubt we’ll be stepping to the plate on Second Amendment rights, if they come under assault by governments. In this state, of course, I don’t see any big rush by lawmakers.”
Their website and official stance: http://www.aclunv.org/category/issue/second-amendment
But I thought officers were given a resume of the individual in question prior to responding to all calls???
Again, as stated before, Metro has a history of questionable shoots with officers' actions covered up or the officers who acted improperly not being held responsible. Erik's background is just drawing attention to that fact because people are having trouble believing that he would act in the manner that Metro says that he did.
That is the first I have heard of. I have been to 2 Phoenix area COSTCO's. I have been to COSTCO in Washington State, Idaho, Utah and even the People's Republik of Kalifornia and have nevers seen a sign.
The Costco in northwest Tucson, where my family shops, definitely prohibits firearms. A large 3x6 sign is posted at the front entrance.
That is the first I have heard of. I have been to 2 Phoenix area COSTCO's. I have been to COSTCO in Washington State, Idaho, Utah and even the People's Republik of Kalifornia and have nevers seen a sign.
Not as large as I originally posted...
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=5644&stc=1&d=1280004569
Costco's corporate mailing address is:
PO Box 34331
Seattle, WA 98124
I am printing out this picture posted here and sending a letter to the corporate office asking about this and why they discriminate against people exercising their civil rights...
I guess you think that I doubt what you saw. That is not the case. I said that I have never seen such a sign at the locations THAT I HAVE BEEN TO. For he record I contacted COSTCO via email and received this reply.
We appreciate you taking the time to email Costco Wholesale.
This is the policy in all of our locations and has always been our policy. It is also stated in the terms and conditions of your membership that you should have received when you signed up.
Please let us know if there is any way we may be of more assistance.
Have a great weekend!
Thank you,
Kim
Costco Wholesale Corporation
I will probably rethink my patronage of COSTCO.
Not as large as I originally posted...
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=5644&stc=1&d=1280004569
Send a postal letter to their HQ. Make it known that you do not patronize stores that violate your civil rights.
Put them on the defensive.
Also let them know about state laws that may or may not allow what they say and how they must go about it.
I've already printed out the picture to include with my letter.
We should probably get GOA, NRA, etc to publicize this in their newsletters, magazines, etc as well. Put the heat on them.
Iraqgunz, I took no issue with your post. I was only showing you what the sign looked like. No drama. :cool:
I guess you think that I doubt what you saw. That is not the case. I said that I have never seen such a sign at the locations THAT I HAVE BEEN TO. For he record I contacted COSTCO via email and received this reply.
I have contacted the NRA and asked them to publicize this. I also contacted COSTCO again.
Send a postal letter to their HQ. Make it known that you do not patronize stores that violate your civil rights.
Put them on the defensive.
Also let them know about state laws that may or may not allow what they say and how they must go about it.
I've already printed out the picture to include with my letter.
We should probably get GOA, NRA, etc to publicize this in their newsletters, magazines, etc as well. Put the heat on them.
Littlelebowski
07-24-10, 22:18
Is there anyone here who has not made decision to avoid Costco?
It is an understood Constitutional construct that your rights stop when they bump up against someone else's. For instance, you have the right to say anything you want, free speech and all of that, however, you can't falsely yell "fire!" in a crowded movie house. Your free speech right bumps up against the patron's rights, etc. Therefore your keep and bear arms right ends at the door of any establishment that doesn't want guns inside; they have rights too, something we just have to deal with. Sure, you can shop elsewhere but my feeling is that if I want someone to respect my rights, I should reciprocate.
Littlelebowski
07-24-10, 22:41
It is an understood Constitutional construct that your rights stop when they bump up against someone else's. For instance, you have the right to say anything you want, free speech and all of that, however, you can't falsely yell "fire!" in a crowded movie house. Your free speech right bumps up against the patron's rights, etc. Therefore your keep and bear arms right ends at the door of any establishment that doesn't want guns inside; they have rights too, something we just have to deal with. Sure, you can shop elsewhere but my feeling is that if I want someone to respect my rights, I should reciprocate.
Exactly right. Vote with your wallet. Heck, IKEA kicked a VA state trooper out of its store for packing. Not going there anymore, not that I needed any more reason not to.
so curious then its costco policy they do not allow guns ? but yet I thought here in AZ they had to post ? so if they do not post and its in some small print some where ? which will stand up ?
I would think they have to post at the door ? but cause the membership ? anyone know ? will do some more digging but would like others thoughts ?
but wonder if all the press they might get from this we will now see signs pop up on every store ?
Littlelebowski
07-24-10, 23:16
so curious then its costco policy they do not allow guns ? but yet I thought here in AZ they had to post ? so if they do not post and its in some small print some where ? which will stand up ?
I would think they have to post at the door ? but cause the membership ? anyone know ? will do some more digging but would like others thoughts ?
but wonder if all the press they might get from this we will now see signs pop up on every store ?
Someone else pointed out that it's in Costco's membership policy that you're supposed to read.
Anyway, this is good timing. Joined Sam's Club.
Dear LittleLebowski,
Welcome to Membership at samsclub.com! We hope you enjoyed your shopping experience and will return to shop both online and in one of our many Club locations.
Littlelebowski
07-24-10, 23:17
Honu, read this.
I guess you think that I doubt what you saw. That is not the case. I said that I have never seen such a sign at the locations THAT I HAVE BEEN TO. For he record I contacted COSTCO via email and received this reply.
We appreciate you taking the time to email Costco Wholesale.
This is the policy in all of our locations and has always been our policy. It is also stated in the terms and conditions of your membership that you should have received when you signed up.
Please let us know if there is any way we may be of more assistance.
Have a great weekend!
Thank you,
Kim
Costco Wholesale Corporation
I will probably rethink my patronage of COSTCO.
It is an understood Constitutional construct that your rights stop when they bump up against someone else's. For instance, you have the right to say anything you want, free speech and all of that, however, you can't falsely yell "fire!" in a crowded movie house. Your free speech right bumps up against the patron's rights, etc. Therefore your keep and bear arms right ends at the door of any establishment that doesn't want guns inside; they have rights too, something we just have to deal with. Sure, you can shop elsewhere but my feeling is that if I want someone to respect my rights, I should reciprocate.
Unfortunately, this is wrong. It should be right. But it is wrong. "Places of public accommodation" are subject to a lot of things that private people are not. Things like anti-discrimination laws, ADA, etc. Stores, restaurants, etc. Commercial places open to the public are considered "places of public accommodation." (You can Google that phrase -- I did not make it up.) As long as that is so, then they need to respect all civil rights. As long as these places are subject to anti-discrimination laws, ADA, etc. then they should not be allowed to discriminate against any civil right.
I personally feel that they should be allowed to discriminate against anyone they choose, that ADA is unconstitutional, etc. But as long as the system is set up the way it is and Uncle Sam forces them to "respect" civil rights and not discriminate, then we need to make sure that includes the right to carry and self defense.
I guess you think that I doubt what you saw. That is not the case. I said that I have never seen such a sign at the locations THAT I HAVE BEEN TO. For he record I contacted COSTCO via email and received this reply.
[B]We appreciate you taking the time to email Costco Wholesale.
This is the policy in all of our locations and has always been our policy. It is also stated in the terms and conditions of your membership that you should have received when you signed up.
Please let us know if there is any way we may be of more assistance.
Have a great weekend!
I have been a Costco member for a long long time. I do not remember any such provision in any membership agreement that I signed and when I joined, that time period, that year in fact, I was VERY VERY AWARE of that sort of thing and would have noticed it (1994). That was a very outspoken and political year for me. So I don't think I ever signed such an agreement and they certainly don't post at any of my million Costcos here against firearms. (We have like 7 within 30-45 min and another one or two another 30 minutes or less past that).
I think public pressure needs to be put against them. Make it known far and wide, if this is indeed their policy, that they have this policy and get everyone to make a big deal of it. Starbucks came around, maybe Costco will (I'd much rather shop at Costco than Sam's Club -- Costco is more than a step above and Sam's Club is a Wally-world Chinamart subsidiary and I would not be surprised if Sam's Club has the same policy).
Littlelebowski
07-25-10, 00:13
Sam's Club is alright by me.
From: Stephanie Bradley [mailto:sabradley@costco.com]
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 12:43 PM
To: Investor Relations
Subject: RE: Banning guns
Dear Mr. xxx,
This email is in response to your October 20, 2006 letter to our Investor Relations department, regarding Costco's "No Firearms" policy at its warehouse stores.
As an initial matter, Costco is not a place of "public accommodation" within the meaning of civil rights laws. The definition of "public accommodation" does not include a bona fide private club or other establishment that is not in fact open to the public. Costco Wholesale is a membership-only warehouse club. It is not open to the general public. It restricts membership to a limited group of qualified individuals who agree to membership conditions. We have the right, and the obligation to our members, to enact and enforce membership rules. The Member Service Employees at the exit doors are obliged to follow these rules. By obtaining a Costco membership card, our members agree to comply with the Membership Rules and the Privileges and Conditions of membership.
Costco does not believe that it is necessary for firearms to be brought into its warehouse stores, except in the case of authorized law enforcement officers. For the protection of all our members and employees, we feel this is a reasonable and prudent precaution to ensure a pleasant shopping experience and safe workplace. Our policy is meant to protect our members and employees in all warehouses around the world. This is not a new policy and we do not customize the policy for each individual city/county/state/country where we do business.The shopping experience is not enhanced by bringing a firearm into our warehouse.
Our primary goal at Costco Wholesale is to keep our members happy.
Sincerely,
Stephanie Bradley
Executive Assistant to:
. . Joel Benoliel - SVP-Legal & Administration
. . Paul Latham - VP-Membership, Marketing & Services
sabradley@costco.com
If they are subject to the ADA, then they are a "place of public accommodation."
The shopping experience is not enhanced by bringing a firearm into our warehouse.
Especially when some dirt bag decides to shoot up the place:rolleyes:
So much for doing business with Costco...
I always look for these signs no matter where I am. I will make it a point to look at Sams and my local COSTCO again. The way I understand Arizona law the sign has to be posted at all entrances to the store.
I have been a Costco member for a long long time. I do not remember any such provision in any membership agreement that I signed and when I joined, that time period, that year in fact, I was VERY VERY AWARE of that sort of thing and would have noticed it (1994). That was a very outspoken and political year for me. So I don't think I ever signed such an agreement and they certainly don't post at any of my million Costcos here against firearms. (We have like 7 within 30-45 min and another one or two another 30 minutes or less past that).
I think public pressure needs to be put against them. Make it known far and wide, if this is indeed their policy, that they have this policy and get everyone to make a big deal of it. Starbucks came around, maybe Costco will (I'd much rather shop at Costco than Sam's Club -- Costco is more than a step above and Sam's Club is a Wally-world Chinamart subsidiary and I would not be surprised if Sam's Club has the same policy).
If you do sign up with Sam's Club, write Costco a letter and tell them why. Your lack of shopping at Costco won't be noticed in the bottom line, but if enough people send them letters, they will more likely take more notice (which may or may not mean they do anything). But "purely" voting with your wallet, without telling them this, does nothing unless you can get a very significant chunk of their membership to follow you, and even then, they need to be told what the issue is so that they can connect A and B together. Unless it is pointed out to them that you are leaving (and hopefully a million other people), they will not see that this is because of their policy. So let them know.
I have just emailed them and included a copy of that 2006 email and explained to them how dumb (in more diplomatic terms) it is and how it has the exact opposite effect to what they claim.
I also plan on following up with a written letter, as well as a letter to the NRA and one to GOA to see if I can encourage them to mention this to their membership. The goal is to get a huge flood of letters to Costco encouraging them to be like Starbucks and support the local/state laws of the locations that they are in and get rid of their discriminatory policies. Ones that have no logical basis and are steeped in ignorance.
It might be interesting to get a ton of firearms activists to all buy one share of Costco stock and then bring the issue to their annual meeting... Nothing like a bunch of publicity to get a company to change their minds.
I have a feeling once the tapes come out that publicity for costco won't be a problem.
I miss MT & CO as CCW was simple. The laws were clear cut. I'm in TX now and haven't figured it all out yet. There should be no signs, blah, blah, blah it should be clear and simple.
I fully agree. September won't be here for quite some time, so I personally think they are buying themselves time to figure out how to justify what occurred. However, this is based on the ASS-umption that the suspect indeed did nothing wrong, when he possibly did everything wrong.
I have a feeling once the tapes come out that publicity for costco won't be a problem.
My membership card expired years ago, but I still sneak in and eat their delicious, cheap pizza when I'm around a costco. Hear that you costco bastards, an armed hadji is infiltrating your compound and stealing your pizza pies!
I miss MT & CO as CCW was simple. The laws were clear cut. I'm in TX now and haven't figured it all out yet. There should be no signs, blah, blah, blah it should be clear and simple.
Texas is easy. If it isn't the "Gospel Sign", do what you want (for places like Costco, anyway). I smile a little every time I breeze right past all the "gunbuster" signs. These places hate guns, but don't give a shit enough to know the law. They even fail at being hippies. How lame is that?
Feel free to shoot me a PM if you need some help. If I don't have the answer, I know someone that does.
Family & friends of Erik Scott have started a billboard campaign in the valley to get some answers, video here: http://www.fox5vegas.com/video/24377974/index.html
A website in memory of Erik Scott: http://www.inmemoryoferikscott.org/
They've also set up a Facebook page in memory of him: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=143710002305960
COSTCO FB page is getting hammered about the Erik Scott incident: http://www.facebook.com/Costco?ref=mf
A column by the libertarian Vin Suprynowicz that addresses the coroner's inquest:
http://www.lvrj.com/opinion/a-few-questions-for-metro-99190929.html?ref=929
VIN SUPRYNOWICZ: A few questions for Metro
It's been two weeks since three Las Vegas Metro cops shot and killed 38-year-old West Point graduate Erik Scott as he exited a Costco store in the upscale area of Summerlin on July 10.
So far, the incident has generated more questions than answers.
If officials lock up the evidence so you can't get the answers, print the questions.
Erik Scott had a permit; he could legally carry a firearm either open or concealed. It's a right. Mr. Scott was under no obligation to demonstrate a "need" to carry his firearms to the store (as some letter-writers have suggested), any more than you must demonstrate a "need" to go to church more than once a week.
Nor do I agree with those who would say, if police shot up a luncheon meeting of the Jaycees or the Rotary Club, that "Cops are getting edgy in this town; people are just going to have to be more cautious about how they exercise their right to assemble."
Apparently Mr. Scott, who was shopping with his girlfriend, broke the plastic wrap on a carton of bottled water so he could check to see if the bottles would fit in his backpack. He shouldn't have done that. But is it a capital crime?
If I go to Costco with a perfectly legal gun in a holster, either concealed or open, even though I never present my weapon or threaten anyone with it, will employees there call the police, report a "crazy man with a gun," and have me killed?
Will the 9-1-1 operator closely question such a caller, asking, "Wait a minute, this is important: Do you mean there's a man who's behaving oddly and he's brandishing a firearm, threatening people with a firearm? Or do you mean there's a man who's behaving oddly, and you've noticed he's carrying a handgun in a holster, which is perfectly legal? This is a real important distinction for me to be able to explain to the officers we're sending"?
I hope the 9-1-1 operator in the Erik Scott bottled-water killing asked that question; they ought to be trained to ask that question. The Review-Journal has tried to get the recordings of the 9-1-1 calls to find out, but the G-men won't release them.
Actually, I can't find the part of the state or U.S. Constitution that says, "You can be killed at any time for failing to obey a policeman's order," even though letter-writers keep telling me it's in there.
Will only one officer give me orders? Or will all three shout conflicting orders in order to confuse and terrify me?
Will they have their guns out and leveled at me, at that point? If I point a firearm at someone it's considered to be a crime, called "assault." If I shoot a police officer simply because he puts his hand on the butt of his sidearm while it's still in the holster, I'll go to prison (at best). How come cops don't go to prison if they shoot someone simply for touching a gun? I suppose people will say, "You're not in danger if a policeman puts his hand on his gun, because they don't go around shooting people."
Good one.
How many this year, Sheriff Gillespie? Trevor Cole, unarmed, got shot in the head with a combat rifle while kneeling on his bathroom floor with his hands up.
The charge? Selling an ounce or two of pot.
Why not arrest him on the street? Why put his nine-month-pregnant girlfriend at risk? Did some sloppy police work allow the author of that warrant to claim Cole had a violent criminal record, when he didn't? Was that work done by an officer who'd already shot and killed other suspects, and told stories that didn't match the physical evidence?
How about if we count people like Ivan Carrillo, an apparent drunken driver killed when his car was rammed by a Metro police cruiser on May 20? Isn't that a lethal use of force? How come there's been no coroner's inquest in that death?
If the police tell me to put my gun down on the ground, and I reach down to remove my holster from my belt or waistband so I can follow that order, will they shoot and kill me for following that order, later explaining they had to shoot me because I didn't follow one of their other, simultaneous orders -- to put my hands up, to lie down, to do any number of things that can't all be done at once? We don't know whether that's what happened outside the Costco, because Metro hasn't released the Costco video disc. Some of it may be shown to a coroner's jury on Sept. 3, the first day of the long Labor Day holiday weekend, in a little courtroom downtown holding about 46 people.
Maybe. If it isn't "lost or damaged."
Oh, was that gratuitous? I don't think so. After Officer George Pease killed Henry Rowe by slashing his throat, Metro said tests of both men's clothing would reveal whether Rowe grabbed the officer's gun and shot at him in the dark, like Pease said. But when they got to the coroner's inquest, Metro said it hadn't bothered to have those tests performed, since they would have been "costly and inconclusive." Yeah. Good one.
If I show up for that Sept. 3 inquest, will I find my entrance blocked by two armed bailiffs, maybe even shaved-heads K.P. Ross and Sgt. R. Wright, who will rest their hands on the butts of their Glock .40s and tell me "It's not open to the public," the way they did when I tried to attend the Henry Prendes inquest, in March of 2006?
What are they afraid of, with their carefully arranged dog-and-pony show, presenting only the evidence selected by the government, with no cross examination, so jurors end up clearing even officers they think should never be allowed back on the street, as was the case when Bruce Gentner emptied his magazine at John Perrin, armed only with a basketball?
Vin Suprynowicz is assistant editor of the Review-Journal's editorial pages. His column appears Sunday.
Maybe the family should contact the Attorney General and demand that the investigate it as a "civil rights violation under color of authority" just like they are contemplating in the shooting death of Oscar Grant in Oakland by a BART officer after the jury didn't reach the verdict they some people wanted.
Or like the Rodney King incident.
I contacted COSTCO again and this is what they said. Read carefully and you will see it is almost verbatim to the response that Lebowski recieved in 2006.
Costco Wholesale is a membership-only warehouse club. It is not open to the general public. It restricts membership to a limited group of qualified individuals who agree to membership conditions. We have the right and the obligation to our members, to enact and enforce membership rules. The Member Service Employees at the exit doors are obliged to follow these rules. By obtaining a Costco membership card, our members agree to comply with the Membership Rules and the Privileges and Conditions of membership.
Costco does not believe that it is necessary for firearms to be brought into its warehouse stores, except in the case of authorized law enforcement officers. For the protection of all our members and employees, we feel this is a reasonable and prudent precaution to ensure a pleasant shopping experience and safe workplace. Our policy is meant to protect our members and employees in all warehouses around the world. This is not a new policy and we do not customize the policy for each individual city/county/state/country where we do business.
Our primary goal at Costco Wholesale is to keep our members happy. If you believe that our policy restricting members from bringing firearms into our warehouse stores is either unfair or excessively burdensome, or you cannot agree to abide by this policy, or you are dissatisfied for any other reason, Costco will promptly refund your annual membership fee in full.
I responded that I was going to forward this info to some gun rights groups for further action. This was their response.
Dear William,
We appreciate you taking the time to email Costco Wholesale.
Your feedback has been forwarded to the appropriate department for their review. Thank you for taking the time to share your comments with us.
Thank you,
Nicole
Costco Wholesale Corporation
I emailed two different addresses (I emailed the author of the 2006 one that was posted here and that person is on vacation until Tuesday so I also emailed one of the people listed in her vacation message as a backup). I also asked them if they were subject to the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act). If they say, YES, then they are a "place of public accommodation", their "private club" protestations notwithstanding.
I have not received any response yet.
I too will be trying to light a fire under some gun rights groups. I encourage everyone to contact Costco and ask them why they are violating your civil rights and discriminating against you. They can "think" whatever they want about "safety" but we need to politely point out that their "thoughts" on the matter are irrelevant (meaning their thought that banning firearms makes things safer) as all data point to the opposite.
I brought up to them that their policy has already cost a life -- that of Mr. Erik Scott due to the hysterical reaction of Costco employees to his carrying (which I assume was done innocently).
Littlelebowski
07-27-10, 06:40
The billboard.
http://www.inmemoryoferikscott.org/images/stories/images/erik.jpg
Is there anyone here who has not made decision to avoid Costco?
Me. If I boycotted every place that's gun unfriendly I wouldn't have many places left to go.
I also don't place the blame for Erik Scott's death on Costco and think it's out of line for people to send letters, email, etc. to Costco telling them that they, in effect, killed Erik Scott. Nobody from Costco shot him. Even in permissive environments, "person with a gun" calls are made by hysterical goofballs and responded to by the police. The issue is the response by the police.
I encourage everyone to not let this turn into a distracting sideshow. If you want to make phone calls and send letters, send them to the Nevada AG and/or Fed DOJ requesting them to investigate. If you feel the need to boycott something, boycott Las Vegas and let the city council know why.
If you feel the need to boycott something, boycott Las Vegas and let the city council know why.
How is that going to fix anything? The city council has little to do with this, it would be more the county commissioners, of which Harry Reid's son is one. The actual City of Las Vegas is the old downtown area, Clark County is the rest of Las Vegas, and most of the "Strip". The Clark County Sheriff is in charge of LVMPD, and LVMPD is the primary police agency for Clark County. I guess instead of emailing Costco, you could contact the county commission, or the Las Vegas Convention and Visitors Authority and tell them you're afraid to visit Vegas because you think the cops might shoot you. :rolleyes: But, lots of places have police departments that have questionable shootings, the problem here is that the officers that have been involved in these shootings are not held responsible. Two of the officers involved in this shooting were relatively new officers. I know officers who have been with Metro for much longer and with some of them I wonder if they know which end of the gun the bullets come out of. I'm sure that many of the police officers on this forum will tell you that they work with, or know of, officers that fit this description.
Me. If I boycotted every place that's gun unfriendly I wouldn't have many places left to go.
I also don't place the blame for Erik Scott's death on Costco and think it's out of line for people to send letters, email, etc. to Costco telling them that they, in effect, killed Erik Scott. Nobody from Costco shot him. Even in permissive environments, "person with a gun" calls are made by hysterical goofballs and responded to by the police. The issue is the response by the police.
Yes and no. Costco employees did not pull the trigger. Nor did they intend his death. And the police certainly do seem to have be the main ones in the culpability question. But Costco certainly did play a role, due to their policy. If they did not have that policy and their security teams and all employees were trained how to act when they spotted a gun on an otherwise normal shopper who happened to be packing, then I am firmly of the belief that Erik Scott would still be alive today. The police would never have been called by Costco in the first place and there would never have been a bungled response by the police. It certainly was an unintended consequence of the policy but a consequence none the less. And Costco needs to be made to realize that. Their policy lead to the death of a customer.
Their security team should have asked him what he was doing with the bottled water etc, and politely informed him that his gun was printing or however they noticed it so that he could correct his carry. Something along those lines.
While "person with gun" goofball call-ins happen even in permissive environments, that is not what we are talking about and does not excuse Costco and their flawed policy. There is a logic disconnect in that argument.
I encourage everyone to not let this turn into a distracting sideshow. If you want to make phone calls and send letters, send them to the Nevada AG and/or Fed DOJ requesting them to investigate.
This is a good idea probably, as well, depending on what happens with the coroners inquest. However, that does not lessen the need to let Costco know the problems with their policy and that their policy lead to a customer's death.
If you feel the need to boycott something, boycott Las Vegas and let the city council know why.
How is that going to fix anything?
It won't, and I'm not endorsing a boycott (or anything else, for that matter). My comment was to those who feel a need to boycott Costco and that their efforts might be better directed elsewhere.
My comment was to those who feel a need to boycott Costco and that their efforts might be better directed elsewhere.
Efforts directed elsewhere won't get Costco to change its policy.
Littlelebowski
07-27-10, 14:38
But Costco certainly did play a role, due to their policy. If they did not have that policy and their security teams and all employees were trained how to act when they spotted a gun on an otherwise normal shopper who happened to be packing, then I am firmly of the belief that Erik Scott would still be alive today. The police would never have been called by Costco in the first place and there would never have been a bungled response by the police. It certainly was an unintended consequence of the policy but a consequence none the less. And Costco needs to be made to realize that. Their policy lead to the death of a customer.
Agreed. I will not bother with Costco when Sam's Club is not so blatantly antigun.
Agreed. I will not bother with Costco when Sam's Club is not so blatantly antigun.
The problem with Sam's Club is that they just suck :D and are part of Wal-Mart...
But, if the following link is to be believed, Wal-Mart has kind of a Starbucks attitude to CCW, which is to be mostly commended. I would assume that Sam's Club would have the same policy, being part of the Wal-Mart conglomerate.
http://deadbangguns.com/Articles/WalMart.html
Are you ****ing kidding me?!?!?!??! :angry:
http://www.fox5vegas.com/news/24414959/detail.html
LAS VEGAS -- In a surprising announcement Tuesday, the Clark County coroner’s office said it was postponing the inquest into the shooting death of a man by police outside a Summerlin Costco.
The inquest had been scheduled for Sept. 3 but has been delayed indefinitely, Coroner Mike Murphy told FOX5.
Three police officers were placed on paid administrative leave after the July 10 shooting of Erik Scott outside the store.
Police were called to the store after a complaint that someone was tearing up merchandise. But some witnesses dispute those claims.
Survey: Do You Agree With The Decision To Postpone?
Scott, a West Point graduate, was carrying a concealed weapon but did have a permit. The officers' actions were questioned by several witnesses who said he did not threaten police with the gun when they confronted him.
Scott’s family recently paid for several electronic billboards asking witnesses to come forward with the “truth” about the shooting and Metro Sheriff Doug Gillespie called a news conference where he urged the public to be patient during the investigation.
The inquest hearing was set to determine whether the officers’ actions were excusable, justified or criminal. FOX5 wants to know what you think about the shooting. Send your comments to THE RANT and hear the responses weeknights on FOX5 News at 10.
Are you ****ing kidding me?!?!?!??! :angry:
http://www.fox5vegas.com/news/24414959/detail.html
Wow. Methinks the state or Fed need to step in.
I tried to keep a fair an open view of this despite my initial gut reaction. But this latest news really makes me think that someone is trying to cover someone else ass.
Littlelebowski
07-27-10, 18:58
I need help understanding this.......
LEOs, thoughts?
I need help understanding this.......
LEOs, thoughts?
The 2010 election for Clark County's Sheriff are in November but I have no idea if that is one of the motives in delaying the investigation.
http://www.lvrj.com/news/coroner-s-inquest-into-death-in-shooting-at-costco-postponed-99392589.html
The coroner's inquest into the death the man shot by Las Vegas police at a busy Summerlin Costco earlier this month has been postponed, the Clark County coroner's office confirmed Tuesday.
Three Las Vegas police officers shot Erik Scott outside the entrance of Costco the afternoon of July 10.
A jury was scheduled to be convened Sept. 3 to determine whether the officers' actions were excusable, justifiable or criminal.
Clark County Coroner Mike Murphy said the inquest has been indefinitely postponed at the request of the District Attorney's office.
"The inquest is being postponed pending some additional investigative work," Murphy said.
Police said Scott, who had a permit to carry concealed weapons, didn't obey their orders to lie on the ground and put his hands up. Police said he instead pointed a pistol at an officer.
Scott's family and friends have disputed that story, saying the West Point graduate would never point a weapon at an officer.
Scott's father has said his son might have been confused because several officers could have been shouting different orders at him prior to the shooting.
I would like to see the Feds step in and investigate this. Why would they indefinetely delay the coroner's inquest? Reviewing witness accounts already taken and whatever video evidence there is should have started as soon as possible. If this was my relative the longer the delay between the incident and the inquest the more worried I would be about witness tampering and evidence going missing or being tampered with.
Edit: Noticed since my post that Irishluck posted more information about the delay coming as a request from the District Attorney. Maybe that means they have evidence of a crime.
There was no additional information on the local stations at 5, 5:30 or 6 o'clock news. It's being reported on 3 stations that I've seen but nothing more than what's in the links previously listed.
Interesting news and will definitely get her some attention in the local news: http://www.mynews3.com/story.php?id=23931&n=5035
The recent series of high profile officer involved shootings in Metro’s district has invariably focused attention on the coroner’s inquest process.
We spoke with the coroner and a Las Vegas Metro officer who says the process must change.
Coroner’s inquests have long been a source of controversy in southern Nevada.
“I don’t know of a time that we’ve dealt with these that these (weren’t) emotionally charged,” says Clack County Coroner Michael Murphy.
Murphy say that for better or worse, current procedures operate in a timely manner.
“This is the most open process that I’m aware of that you can have that would bring the subject to light as soon as possible after the incident. If you waited for the regular process, the criminal process, you may be talking years.”
However, many members of the public remain skeptical of a coroner’s inquest process that last returned a verdict of criminal negligence in 1976.
At least one Las Vegas Metro officer is challenging the current process: candidate for sheriff, Laurie Bisch.
“I think it’s safe to say the public perception is that the coroner’s inquest process isn’t fair and equitable on both sides. They feel it’s a one-sided show where the district attorney only presents the case that the homicide detectives present to him.”
“The facts and the evidence are brought forward but there’s nobody there to challenge those facts or to challenge that evidence.”
If elected, Bisch says Sheriff Bisch will seek an adversarial inquest procedure that allows victims’ families to question the police version of events.
“Government is in place to represent the people; it’s not here to just close the door on them.”
“I’m not here to defend the coroner’s inquest process, I’m here to do exactly what the statute says,” says Murphy. “If they change the statuettes and the ordinances, we will adopt to what the new one is.”
The public will have its say in November.
I'm thinking they got a look at some video footage and there's something on there they didn't like.
ThirdWatcher
07-27-10, 20:38
I need help understanding this.......
LEOs, thoughts?
I don't live anywhere near Las Vegas (so I don't know the facts), but we all know bad news doesn't get better with age. If it is a bad shooting, LVMPD should deal with it properly before they lose all credibility with the public they serve.
....before they lose all credibility with the public they serve.
There's not much left there to lose.
I have emailed the Nevada Attorney General's office as well as a member of the Las Vegas city council.
ThirdWatcher
07-28-10, 02:45
There's not much left there to lose.
This really saddens me. Whatever happened to Sir Robert Peel's Nine Principles (for law enforcement)?:
1.The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.
2.The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon the public approval of police actions.
3.Police must secure the willing co-operation of the public in voluntary observation of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.
4.The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.
5.Police seek and preserve public favor not by catering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.
6.Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice, and warning is found to be insufficient.
7.Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent upon every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
8.Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions, and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.
9.The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.
Sir Robert also said "the police are the public, and the public are the police."
Call me old fashioned, but I really believe Sir Robert Peel was ahead of his time.
Interesting news and will definitely get her some attention in the local news: http://www.mynews3.com/story.php?id=23931&n=5035
I don't know who I'm voting for but I know it's not Gillespie.
Call me old fashioned, but I really believe Sir Robert Peel was ahead of his time.
Still is. Police sort of have a hard time fighting with a whole lot of bad laws and one hand tied behind their back these days. It isn't what it used to be. My hat is off to people who go out there 4 on, 4 off, fighting the good fight until they're literally physically incapable of performing their jobs anymore. Sheepdog is the proper term if ever there was one.
Until the later half of the 20th century the medical, law enforcement and legal professions were regarded with profound respect because only an impeccable reputation kept you trustworthy and employable. Things have changed, they need to change back the other way. Social progress didn't have a whole lot of progress in it.
Interesting news this morning, thanks Roneski. Please follow link for complete article: http://www.lvrj.com/news/witness-list-delays-inquest-99448369.html
The coroner's inquest into the fatal shooting of the man at a busy Summerlin Costco has been indefinitely delayed partly because of the number of witnesses who might testify, Clark County District Attorney David Roger said Tuesday.
Roger said Las Vegas police haven't submitted to his office the appropriate paperwork, including witness statements, needed to subpoena those who saw the July 10 shooting of 38-year-old Erik Scott. The inquest had been set for Sept. 3; no new date has been set...
...Citing the ongoing investigation, police have refused requests to release the 911 recording, while the hard drive from the store surveillance system remains under forensic review by a police agency in Southern California.
Goodman said the postponement of the inquest "raises the specter of suspicion."
"This leaves the family with no answer and no information at the pure discretion of when Metro believes it should release the information," Goodman said. "I'm unable to do any investigation because Metro controls the investigation."
Police did not return a call late Tuesday afternoon for comment.
...Roger wouldn't speculate on when the Scott inquest will be rescheduled.
Clark County Coroner Mike Murphy said such delays are rare but not unprecedented.
Three officers have been placed on routine paid administrative leave pending the outcome of the investigation and an inquest...
The shooting was not the first for Mosher, who in April 2006 was one of two officers who shot and killed a suspect in a car.
...Police said that they have spoken to about 40 witnesses and that more than a dozen said they saw Scott pull a gun. The Las Vegas Review-Journal has interviewed seven witnesses. Three said Scott drew a gun, but none of them said they saw him point it at police officers.
Goodman said 15 witnesses, including doctors and lawyers who were within five feet of the shooting, have said "unequivocally" that not only was Scott not pointing a gun, he was no threat and had no time to react to multiple police commands before he was shot.
Goodman said Scott was shot seven times, including once in the chest, once in the shoulder, and five times in the back while he was on the ground.
Goodman also said he has identified four cameras near the store entrance that might have recorded the shooting, plus a camera in the store that could show Scott's behavior while in the store. The 911 recording and any video surveillance are critical, he said.
"The family just wants the truth to be told," Goodman said.
decodeddiesel
07-28-10, 12:31
Un-****ing-believable :mad:
Un-****ing-believable :mad:
That statement is from Erik Scott's family's attorney, the mayor's son, so I'm not sure how accurate it is but it was published by the RJ as a quote.
The local news and citizens are ripping on Metro, the inquest process and everyone involved on the .Gov side.
RogerinTPA
07-28-10, 14:16
Agreed. Sounds like amateur hour by the PD, and trying to suppress evidence and first hand accounts by credible witnesses.
Littlelebowski
07-28-10, 14:21
What are the odds that this is a prelude to the DA charging the police officers involved?
What are the odds that this is a prelude to the DA charging the police officers involved?
Slim and none, leaning towards none.
Littlelebowski
07-28-10, 15:30
Slim and none, leaning towards none.
So, why do you think that the DA is holding this up?
http://www.mynews3.com/story.php?id=23961&n=5035
Delayed indefinitely.
That’s the word regarding the Coroner’s Inquest that would have determined whether police were justified in the controversial shooting of an armed suspect outside of a local Costco store.
The District Attorney’s Office has requested the delay due to the complexity of the ongoing investigation.
So how is this sitting with the family of Erik Scott?
They’re not happy and their attorney is furious. While the sheriff has been urging patience, that patience is now wearing thin.
Steve Crupi: What's your reaction to this?
“We’re outraged because Sheriff Gillespie is going on press conferences saying that they’re not going to release the video or the 911 tapes until the inquest. And then they continue the inquest indefinitely,” says attorney Ross Goodman.
Goodman represents the family of Erik Scott, the man shot by police earlier this month after he created a disturbance at the Costco store in Summerlin, had two guns with him, and allegedly failed to follow police commands.
The complexity of the case has now prompted the DA to indefinitely postpone the inquest, originally set for September 3.
"The inquest process was designed so the community knows what their police officers are doing,” says District Attorney David Roger. “And until we get all the police report we won't know how many witnesses there will be. We know there are going to be a lot.”
Roger says his office has not yet received any of the investigation material from Metro Police. However, Sheriff Gillespie claims his department is conducting a thorough and unbiased investigation, repeatedly calling for patience.
But relatives of Erik Scott aren’t listening. They’ve gone as far as to purchase electronic billboards encouraging potential witnesses to expose the truth.
And this delay with the inquest has only added fuel to their fire.
“The family is left shocked we don't have the answers yet,” Goodman continues.
Although Goodman isn’t alleging any specific misconduct by police, he says any further delay will only add to the uncertainty and suspicion surrounding this case.
The DA says another reason for delaying the inquest is the fact that two other inquests are scheduled to happen first, and those are being handled by the same prosecutors.
Littlelebowski
07-28-10, 16:00
So, help me understand this. The DA has delayed this indefinitely.
Roger said Las Vegas police haven't submitted to his office the appropriate paperwork, including witness statements, needed to subpoena those who saw the July 10 shooting of 38-year-old Erik Scott.
Does the above mean that the DA is making the police find their witnesses or that the DA is now involved in finding witnesses?
I know we've got quite a few LEOs and even a few lawyers on here - care to take an educated guess?
So, why do you think that the DA is holding this up?
No idea, but I don't see the DA charging the cops. The last cop that got charged/convicted in a shooting was Ron Mortensen (sp?) and it wasn't an on-duty shooting, there was alot more to it. The cadets who were doing drive-bys on gangbangers a few years ago were charged too. As for on-duty shootings, I don't think even the officer who shot the handcuffed guy in the back who was being restrained by two officers got charged. And I know the officer who shot the fleeing handcuffed murder suspect in the back who escaped from a patrol car wasn't charged. Irish might be able to provide more info, I can't google for shit and I'm on my iPhone.
NCPatrolAR
07-28-10, 20:23
And I know the officer who shot the fleeing handcuffed murder suspect in the back who escaped from a patrol car wasn't charged.
Depending on the circumstances and the articulation used; I can see how that would be a justified shooting.
Depending on the circumstances and the articulation used; I can see how that would be a justified shooting.
Not trying to sharpshoot you or hijack the thread, but could you explain how shooting a man in the back could be justified? I think I might have an idea, but I'd like to hear a hypothetical situation or two to see if I'm on the right track. Thanks.
John_Wayne777
07-28-10, 20:53
Not trying to sharpshoot you or hijack the thread, but could you explain how shooting a man in the back could be justified?
The fact that a person's back is to you the shooter does not mean that the threat he poses to you has necessarily ceased, or that his threat to others has necessarily ceased.
...and that's assuming you were aiming at his back in the first place. In a highly dynamic situation it is entirely possible for a person to completely change aspect between the time a shooter gets the gun on target and the time the gun launches the round. It takes the human brain time to recognize that something is happening and time to act on it, meaning that while guy A is actually in the process of trying to fire the shot guy B can figure out what's happening and start to move. There's a video somewhere out there of a guy who tried to rob a hotel. The clerk behind the counter drew and shot the guy 3 or 4 times. All of this happened within a couple of seconds. The bad guy was hit in the back because between the time the good guy got the gun up where the bad guy could see what was coming and the time he broke his first shot the bad guy had turned and started beating feet for the door....but it was still a good shoot.
It's impossible to judge the justification of a shot merely by where it hit. It's more complex than that. You wouldn't think that a guy who was shot in the back of the head from point blank while he was prone on the ground could possibly be a good shoot...but there's video of exactly that shot happening and it was justified. The guy on the ground hit the ground while trying to pull a gun on a trooper. He had a hand on the gun and was trying to get into position to shoot the trooper. The trooper did what he had to do. If someone just looked at the bullet hole it would have looked like a close range execution shot. When viewed in the context of the dashcam video it's clear that the trooper's actions were reasonable and justified.
NCPatrolAR
07-28-10, 20:56
Not trying to sharpshoot you or hijack the thread, but could you explain how shooting a man in the back could be justified? I think I might have an idea, but I'd like to hear a hypothetical situation or two to see if I'm on the right track. Thanks.
I dont know how the laws in NV are; but in NC a LEO can used deadly force under the following circumstances:
A law‑enforcement officer is justified in using deadly physical force upon another person for a purpose specified in subdivision (1) of this subsection only when it is or appears to be reasonably necessary thereby:
To defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of deadly physical force;
To effect an arrest or to prevent the escape from custody of a person who he reasonably believes is attempting to escape by means of a deadly weapon, or who by his conduct or any other means indicates that he presents an imminent threat of death or serious physical injury to others unless apprehended without delay; or
To prevent the escape of a person from custody imposed upon him as a result of conviction for a felony.
As you can proaby see; the shooting of a fleeing homicide suspect might be justifed under certain circumstances.
I get what you're saying. Not exactly what I was thinking, but similar veins of thought and much better articulated than I could have done for my halfway thoughts. Thank you.
Littlelebowski
07-28-10, 21:11
So what would motivate the DA to put the hearing on hold as he goes over the witness list?
As you can probably see; the shooting of a fleeing homicide suspect might be justifed under certain circumstances.
That's what they determined in the inquest for that one, because he was under arrest for murder and a known gang member, he was considered a threat to the community.
As for the one where the 2 officers were restraining the handcuffed suspect, the officer who fired his weapon said that he thought the suspect was going for the weapon of one of the 2 officers. Of course, he did shoot the guy from 30+ feet away, which may have led to the inquest finding the officer's actions excusable, not justifiable.
So what would motivate the DA to put the hearing on hold as he goes over the witness list?
The large number of witnesses.
Or Gillespie being up for reelection in November.
NCPatrolAR
07-28-10, 21:21
So what would motivate the DA to put the hearing on hold as he goes over the witness list?
I learned long ago that trying to figure why a DA does something isn't worth the effort
Littlelebowski
07-28-10, 21:27
My uneducated, uninformed guess is that it sounds like the DA is taking charge of the investigation for some reason and wants a complete list of witnesses from both sides of the debate. Maybe to appear to be unbiased? Maybe for an election?
Littlelebowski
07-28-10, 21:41
Looks like they might have rescheduled because of the inquest of Trevon Cole (http://www.lvrj.com/news/affidavit-errors-raise-questions-98905769.html?numComments=31).
The NRA-ILA responded to my email about Costco. They say they have forwarded my information to their research dept. for further review and action. We'll see.
John_Wayne777
07-29-10, 06:49
Looks like they might have rescheduled because of the inquest of Trevon Cole (http://www.lvrj.com/news/affidavit-errors-raise-questions-98905769.html?numComments=31).
Yikes. Yeah, that would be a reason to delay the inquest here, as dealing with more than one PR nightmare at a time can be somewhat tricky.
Yikes. Yeah, that would be a reason to delay the inquest here, as dealing with more than one PR nightmare at a time can be somewhat tricky.
These recent incidents, and several more, are all beginning to snowball and becoming a much larger problem when viewed as a whole by the local public. Furtive movement and articulation are starting to sound like CYA and cover up to the general populace.
My reason for stating this is talking to friends & family, interviews on the local news of many citizens and also people calling into radio stations with complaints and speculation.
It's easy to perceive something nefarious with the delay.
A high profile case like this, with all the variables that have already been discussed, shouldn't be rushed. If there's more work to be done, let it be done prior to the inquest so that the inquest is more thorough/complete/etc.
We could all speculate on this endlessly. Some of it will be some pretty well based and educated speculation, but who knows.
As I said before: In the end, may justice be done, however the chips fall.
I learned long ago that trying to figure why a DA does something isn't worth the effort
True words.
It's easy to perceive something nefarious with the delay.
It is, because their past history has given us no reason to not think that way. If Metro's actions throughout their history and especially recent history had been mostly on the up and up, then the people would be more forgiving, but they haven't been.
http://www.ktnv.com/Global/story.asp?S=12898611
The family of the man who was shot and killed by Metro outside Costco is putting more pressure on investigators.
You've seen the electronic billboards around town, asking for witnesses to the shooting of Erik Scott at the Summerlin Costco to come forward.
Scott's family says since those were put up, they've gotten about 400 hits a day on their website... And have received dozens of phone calls from witnesses and people who want to help. The family is grateful for the support from the community, but they say what they really need now is for Metro to release the surveillance videos from that day at Costco. So this weekend, they're going to change the billboards and ask the sheriff to do that.
We've heard from Metro that there were possible glitches in the surveillance video, and that it was sent out of state for analysis.
The NRA-ILA responded to my email about Costco. They say they have forwarded my information to their research dept. for further review and action. We'll see.
I'd think the 2nd Amendment Foundation would have a better chance of looking into it. I doubt that the NRA wants to ruffle any LE feathers.
We've heard from Metro that there were possible glitches in the surveillance video, and that it was sent out of state for analysis.
Who wants to bet the data ends up being "corrupted" or lost?
I'd think the 2nd Amendment Foundation would have a better chance of looking into it. I doubt that the NRA wants to ruffle any LE feathers.
How would the NRA looking into Costco's CCW policy ruffle LE feathers?
decodeddiesel
07-30-10, 19:38
Who wants to bet the data ends up being "corrupted" or lost?
IDK, I think in this situation that would be more than nefarious.
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