The Navigating Collapse NC-1 Knife: Feedback & Design Input

[Outlander Systems]

Lately I've been trying to find a knife that fits what I'm looking for. I never really thought about a custom solution to cook up a unique knife for my personal needs.

I've recently been working with a knife maker to cook me up a sheath, and some new grips for a Tom Brown Tracker. While I think it's a good tool, I realise that there's some shortcomings.

I think too much was crammed into it to be a solid performer at any given task. That being said, much like the survivalist himself, the Tracker knife is a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none. I do like it better than the RAT-7 as an overall performer. Basically, if I was only taking one, it would be the TBT.

So, over the past couple of weeks, I'd been stewing on a custom-design.

Right now, I'm at a stumbling block on what steel to use. I'm leaning towards either D2, ATS-34, or S30V.

My main uses for a full-sized, "bush" knife are hacking, notching, and splitting logs.

Since I'm not planning on taking down any large game, I don't need any extraneous horseshit like gut-hooks; I don't really see the point in a wire-stripper/fence "breaker" either.

The only things I do are chop, baton, notch, and shave branches. I don't use branches bigger than my wrist, so the 8" blade is more for heft and chopping power. I don't want a hatchet. I absolutely hate hatchets.

Here's the preliminary doodle from last week, and my lunch-break design:

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/4993/designsketch.jpg

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/7716/design0.jpg

I'm open to feedback. This will probably take a while for me to really settle on a design I like.

[Trajan]

I'm actually digging the tanto.

If you ever had a folding version made, I would buy it in a heartbeat.

[mkmckinley]

THat's going to be pretty decent for chopping. Looks like you're planning on using flat slab handles. In my experience a more rounded profile with minimal finger groove is best for chopping. The best chopper I have is a BK7 from when they were still under camillus. It's not pretty but it works. Anymore I just carry a 3 or 4 inch folder and a GB hatchet for chopping.

[DTHN2LGS]

Take the handle from your tanto and put that on your machete type blade. That is what I would make. :dance3:

[DacoRoman]

That thing is a beast!

It looks like a great knife, but isn't that blade too long and heavy for a survival knife?

Also, I'm not sold on the finger notch as it may limit your grip options, but if its going to be custom fit it may be very nice, and for your stated intentions of "chop, baton, notch, and shave branches" I agree that it is the more ergonomic and comfortable way to go.

You didn't mention anything about thrusting needs, but for thrusting I personally prefer a straight grip as I like to palm the pommel/butt to make sure my hand doesn't slip over the grip and onto the blade, especially if the grip/hand is slick. My thinking is that if you commit to gripping with a more conventional grip, as the finger grooves would suggest, you may think about adding more of a hand guard on the bottom, again to prevent slippage of the hand onto the blade while thrusting (cause especially with a slippery hand, I don't think the finger groove will be enough protection from that)

[K.L. Davis]

Cool looking blade!

If the primary use is going to be a chopper, I would stay away from the chisel grind... just my druthers, but I think a chisel grind is right at home on wood planners, sashimi knives and well, chisels.

Most right handed people (you?) tend to chop downward, and with a slight right-to-left angle - that right handed grind will cause the blade to hook into the cut... and batoning with a chisel ground blade has never worked that great for me.

The tanto style blade forces you to use the back half of the blade to chop with... from the looks of it, the sweet spot will be out past the functional edge. I like some belly to a chopping blade... drop the tip on that machete style design, and give it some serious belly.

Some good looking designs... the pigs are not so bad either :D

[Iraqgunz]

Have you considered a Kukri style blade? I have a custom one made from ATS34 with Micarta handles and it's a choppin' MOFO.

[John Bonham]

I like the design. The only thing I would add is a lanyard loop but that is just me.

[Thomas M-4]

The HELLION SURVIVOR looks to be some what close to what sketches described.


http://www.topsknives.com/product_info.php?cPath=3&products_id=307

[Outlander Systems]

Worked on it some more today...put together a rough AutoCAD drawing, again, on my lunch break.

I'll try and upload it tomorrow...


Take the handle from your tanto and put that on your machete type blade. That is what I would make.

I still haven't ruled that out. The biggest inspiration came from Brian Goode's TTW knife:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v454/bgoode/ttw-1.jpg

I really like the idea of his knife, with serrations, and a tanto-tip (I'll explain later, and ya'll can feel free to refute and/or set me straight).


It looks like a great knife, but isn't that blade too long and heavy for a survival knife?

I'm attempting to bridge the gap between machete and knife. Because of this, it won't perform as good as knife for chores, and not as good as a machete for thinning brush.

The thrusting I'd do would only be if it were attached to a stick. I *think* I may have an idea of my tie points sorted out.


Most right handed people (you?) tend to chop downward, and with a slight right-to-left angle - that right handed grind will cause the blade to hook into the cut... and batoning with a chisel ground blade has never worked that great for me.

Kino, maybe I've worded it wrong, but the type of blade edge I'm looking for is:

http://www.ontarioknife.com/includes/content/shopping_cart/storage/38/SP8%20Machete%208335.jpg

I don't know what exactly to call it...Scandinavian Chisel-Grind?

Pound-for-pound, it was the greatest chopping utensil for any wood, that I've ever used. Like a good majority of my goodies, it's resting somewhere in the North Georgia woods.

I didn't like the chisel-tip that it had, since it limited the applications of this knife for me. As well, the saw-back was too-far forward for my tastes. I need to state now, as well, how much I hate the term "saw-back". I would prefer, notch-back, since I've yet to handle a saw-backed knife that ever came close to performing sawing work.


The tanto style blade forces you to use the back half of the blade to chop with... from the looks of it, the sweet spot will be out past the functional edge. I like some belly to a chopping blade... drop the tip on that machete style design, and give it some serious belly.

You are quite right, and it's something I've neglected to realise. The two areas that I'm concerned with right now are the handle and the tip. I'm *thinking* that a kiridashi tip might be a good compromise between a arc-bellied, drop-point tip, and the tanto:

http://pat-et-do-chevalier.fr/images/Couteaux/Droits/Remy%20B%2001%20C.JPG


Have you considered a Kukri style blade? I have a custom one made from ATS34 with Micarta handles and it's a choppin' MOFO.

I have, the "Boomerang Hook" sketch was an idea I was playing with on the Kukri.

This design solves my "no thrusting" problem:

http://www.extremaratioknivesdivision.eu/inglese/military/img/kukri_testudo.jpg

An effective Kukri might exceed my maximum blade-length...


I like the design. The only thing I would add is a lanyard loop but that is just me.

The handle design is kicking my ass. I'm trying to figure out a way to have a chopping, low, grip, and a near-the-blade, precision-grip for carving.

I'd love to ripoff the grip from the Airkat Apache, but it's going to be a PITA to draw up:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a289/Jefferydenamrk/AirkatApache16Two.jpg

The grip is *almost* right up my alley, but the palm/meat portion needs an indentation for my thumb.

My ultimate knife would be the grind from the from Ontario Spec-Plus Machete, with the overall shape of Brian Goode's TTW Knife, with a notch-back, and the grip from the Airkat with more arc and extention in the grip for chopping.

Here's my work-blade:

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/9682/bushhook2.jpg

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7562/bushhook1.jpg

She's a one-trick pony, and nothing I'd want to leave the grandkids, or bugout with.

[Outlander Systems]

Have you considered a Kukri style blade? I have a custom one made from ATS34 with Micarta handles and it's a choppin' MOFO.

P.S. How do you like the ATS34? Right now, I'm back and forth between it and the S30V. I have ZERO experience with either material, but on paper, and from homework, they seem to be the route that would best serve me.

[orionz06]

I can draw it up a little better for ya at work some time (Solidworks or Autocad). I can even run a full blown FEA analysis for shits and giggles. Email my username at gmail dot com with the compilation of ideas and where to get them from. I will see what I can do.

[caprice]

Uh, is this something like you want? Your drawing is very close to this below, sorry couldn't get the picture to come up.




http://brockblades.homestead.com/knivesII.html





The Breacher

was designed to fill the niche of a SWAT knife. As the name implies, it is built to help get into a structure to complete the mission. It has a 5 inch blade with an Americanized tanto tip to give it prying strength.

Price $300


Ken Brock is an excellent knife craftsman. I own several of his blades, each is outstanding.

[Outlander Systems]

First Draft in ACAD:

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/4026/nc1outlander.jpg

[JediMindTricks]

Cool looking knife. I would add more belly to the blade, and definitely put a hand guard for protection of one's fingers. I'd make the blade slightly longer too. More like 9" to 9 & 1/2".

[LHS]

The best chopper/camp blade I ever had was an old Ontario Spec-Plus bolo knife. It was like a kukri that could be used for thrusting. I was so torqued when someone stole it from my truck. Then I was even more upset when I found out that Ontario doesn't make it anymore. That knife was the best camp blade I ever owned, and the Cold Steel that I bought to replace it just doesn't fit or balance as well.

Also, check out greymanknives.com. I have one of his earlier Darfur Defenders, and it's a beast of a knife.

[Iraqgunz]

I had alot of knives that were ATS34 before S30V started to be used. Never had any issue with them getting sharp or staying sharp.


P.S. How do you like the ATS34? Right now, I'm back and forth between it and the S30V. I have ZERO experience with either material, but on paper, and from homework, they seem to be the route that would best serve me.

[DacoRoman]

I had alot of knives that were ATS34 before S30V started to be used. Never had any issue with them getting sharp or staying sharp.

What's the advantage of S30V over the ATS34?

[Outlander Systems]

It's the Gee-Whizziest, Cool-Guy, knife material out there.

http://www.dougritter.com/pop_up_cpms30v.htm

I've had lots of good experience with D2, so I've not ruled it out either.

I may try and think of a way to put a curve on the tip, while still maintaining a nasty point to drill with.

I'm also trying to figure out how to build a socket into the handle to plug a 3/8" spade-bit into for boring. At some point, you can go overboard on "features"...

I just think it would be cool if I had the means to drill decent holes in the woods. I'll probably rig together some sort of test to see if it's even possible, the way I'm envisioning it, would involve downward force on the knife, parallel to the ground, with the sheath on, and a socket in the handle. Feet on the item to be drilled.

I'll work up a prototype of the concept in the next week or two, and see if it's even viable. I'll post pics of the results, fail, or no-fail.

[Von Rheydt]

http://swc-handmade-knives.com/

http://www.skookumbushtool.com/

Check out Mors Kochanski and see what he says about knives.

My opinion, not that it counts with anyone but me, is that you should carry an axe (granfors), a small machete and a knife.........ever tried eating lunch with a machete.

[Outlander Systems]

http://swc-handmade-knives.com/

http://www.skookumbushtool.com/

Check out Mors Kochanski and see what he says about knives.

My opinion, not that it counts with anyone but me, is that you should carry an axe (granfors), a small machete and a knife.........ever tried eating lunch with a machete.

Too right...

Or doing any type of "fine" work...

I agree that there's no one tool. I need to balance the fine line between squeezing too much into the knife. I plotted the 1:1 scale version out yesterday, cut it out, and glued it to a piece of cardboard. The design isn't bad, and isn't quite as big as I thought it would be. I may scale back the length an inch, and shorten the width a hair. The delicate balance I'm attempting to achieve is something that can chop, cut, and shave, as I'll carry a 3" fixed blade for the bulk of tasks to be performed.

I absolutely, and completely, hate hatchets and axes, mostly because I never futz with anything large enough to warrant it; and because it's good for two things, chopping large sections of wood, and using as a hammer.

I may play around with a little 3" design after I wrap this one up.

Ultimately, I want this knife to fill the gap between a hatchet, a machete, and a large utility knife, without getting too big, without overloading it with features, and remaining practical.

[Von Rheydt]

I recomend the Frost Mora as a first knife to guys I teach and many of the Euro survival and bushcraft schools use them as a school knife. They are cheap, very sharp and have a nice pointy bit for detail work and I can fell a 3 inch thick tree with one in under 5 minutes.

Your knife does not need to be any longer than the measurement across the palm of your hand. Indeed any longer than this and for detail work you start to lose control. Because, one of my favourite "Bugger the troops around" activities is to have people carve a spork like implement in downtime.

Check this thing out, it is not official issue but its size makes it very handy and it makes a nice base for modifying and altering.....G10 handles, different grind on the blade, perfectly squared spine to the blade.

http://www.endicotts.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=790

Axe's, I agree they have a place but not generally on my pack. I can chop firewood with my knife using the technique called battening.

[thunderinms]

Lately I've been trying to find a knife that fits what I'm looking for. I never really thought about a custom solution to cook up a unique knife for my personal needs.

I've recently been working with a knife maker to cook me up a sheath, and some new grips for a Tom Brown Tracker. While I think it's a good tool, I realise that there's some shortcomings.

I think too much was crammed into it to be a solid performer at any given task. That being said, much like the survivalist himself, the Tracker knife is a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none. I do like it better than the RAT-7 as an overall performer. Basically, if I was only taking one, it would be the TBT.

So, over the past couple of weeks, I'd been stewing on a custom-design.

Right now, I'm at a stumbling block on what steel to use. I'm leaning towards either D2, ATS-34, or S30V.

My main uses for a full-sized, "bush" knife are hacking, notching, and splitting logs.

Since I'm not planning on taking down any large game, I don't need any extraneous horseshit like gut-hooks; I don't really see the point in a wire-stripper/fence "breaker" either.

The only things I do are chop, baton, notch, and shave branches. I don't use branches bigger than my wrist, so the 8" blade is more for heft and chopping power. I don't want a hatchet. I absolutely hate hatchets.

Here's the preliminary doodle from last week, and my lunch-break design:

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/4993/designsketch.jpg

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/7716/design0.jpg

I'm open to feedback. This will probably take a while for me to really settle on a design I like.

NC,

Check your email bud...

G

[bgoode]

Keep at it. I like how this thread shows how simple changes can make a drastic style change. I'm thrilled my doodling / turns into TTW knife helped motivate bro!!!!

[hikeeba]

Hello NC, and all other knife people,


NC, why the love for the tanto-type tip on your knife? I'm just curious. If it is for prying/chisling applications, maybe get your hands on a Ka-Bar Becker Tac-Tool: https://www.kabar.com/product/productDetail.do?productNumber=BK3&mode=search&categoryId=1,7,9&categoryName=Product%20Search%20Results

A Camillus-made Becker Tac-Tool was my go-to bigger blade for years of camping trips and assorted outdoor adventures. It is has a chisl grind, but it made little difference when chopping, batoning, or when used as a draw knife:
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b349/_hikeeba_/Edged%20Tool%20stuff/Chisel.jpg

With a baton buddy:
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b349/_hikeeba_/Edged%20Tool%20stuff/BatonBuddies.jpg

Sure, it looks like a bar with a bevel, but it is actually quite versatile and useful.



Or, if you like your TOPS Tom Brown Tracker, but want something less 'single-bladed-Swiss-Army-knife-ish,' maybe consider along the lines of these designs made by Peter Jensen of Jensen Elite Blades in Australia:

EST-9:
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b349/_hikeeba_/Edged%20Tool%20stuff/JEBEST-9.jpg

EST-7:
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b349/_hikeeba_/Edged%20Tool%20stuff/JEBEST-7.jpg




One a final note, I will echo the thoughts of Von Rheydt a few posts above. Over the past 5 years or so, I have been gravitating towards carrying a smaller blade more often than not. With a baton, a smaller blade can chop and split wood - perhaps not as efficiently as a larger blade, but it will do the job. Over the last few years I have settled into using knives with blades ranging from 4" to 6" on my outdoor adventures. But that's just me.

It also depends somewhat on the situation and intended application of the tool. If weight and space are at a premium, smaller is obviously better, in which case one needs to learn how to make the most of their tool. If weight and space are not at a premium, larger blades or multiple tools can be carried. For more specific applications, I prefer to have on hand the tool that best meets the needs of said application.

But I digress. Edged tools are edged tools, and with a little creative thinking, one can adapt a tool to a given situation; albeit some tools adapt easier than others.



Sorry for the rambling. Good luck on your project, NC. I look forward to seeing the final result.

[Wolf Spyder]

First Draft in ACAD:

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/4026/nc1outlander.jpg

Are you still working on this? Or are you settled on a design? I have been thinking about a Tanto design of my own...