View Full Version : What makes the Knights Armament SR-15 E3 5.56mm rifle such a good rifle?
blackcpull
07-16-10, 16:16
Hello,
I was just wondering what makes the Knights Armament SR-15 E3 5.56mm rifle such a good rifle? I have seen a lot of instructors from Magpul, professionals and a lot of Special Operations guys carry them. I was just wondering what makes them stand out so much.
Thanks for the taking the time to respond to my post.
variablebinary
07-16-10, 16:22
Rather than rehashing the AR15 design, Knights makes some improvements to the bolt, has a nicer recoil impulse because of the gas system is longer, and the controls are fully ambidextrous.
It feels so much like a toy gun:).....you absolutely have to feel one in person to understand just how well the gun handles and balances.
Its in the clear top 3 best guns outta the box Ive ever come across...you get soooo many unique and truly game changing features that its a bargin for give or take 2k.
The "Stoner Rifle" roll mark kinda makes me weak in the knees as well:p
You just have to feel one in person to understand just how well the gun handles and balances.
Magic_Salad0892
07-16-10, 17:11
Even though I'd shot my LWRCi gun more, I still shot the KAC better.
It just shoots amazing. Runs very well suppressed as well. :)
(I only have experience with it in 11.5'' SBR form. I had my KAC barrel shortened. It'll be 12.5'' soon after I get a Noveske Crusader barrel.)
The first time I held it I knew I just had to buy it. The balance is excellent, light weight and I'm a lefty.
It is indeed soo well balanced and soo well spec'ed out it has me completely questioning my current S.O.P. of building my own rifles from hand picked parts. Everything you get for the 2k asking price is a bargain.
Short answer: I was very happy with my Noveske till I held a SR15 E3.
It's got me questioning my faith now.
On a side note and sorry for the minor hijack. But what makes the SR15 so light? Is it the combination of URX and a pencil barrel?
Belmont31R
07-16-10, 19:30
Already mentioned but the gas system length + gas port size makes shooting 556 feel like .223 power ammo, and 223 barely is felt.
For the sum of 2k its actually quite a good deal IF it has what you want on it. $200 stock, $300 trigger, 400-500 dollar rail system, $150 rear sight, etc. If you were to buy a 6920 or other quality gun, and added these parts you would be close to if not more than what an SR15 costs, and still not be as smooth of shooting due to the gas setup. The lower is also ambi, and quite unique. I wish all my lowers were SR15's....
The bolt has rounded lugs which greatly reduces the chance of a sheared bolt lug, and KAC has a 20k round warranty on the bolt.
Some people have had short stroking issues with real weak ammo but KAC enlarged the gas port to accomadate people shooting weak 223 stuff. The gun was designed to shoot M855 (556 pressure) however the vast majority of us have not had issues with weak ammo anyways. I shoot PMC and Hornady Training ammo in mine without a problem.
If you are looking for a gun to do drills with I don't think there is a better gun out there. Its light and snappy like an SBR but due to the light weight rail, and barrel profile it really doesnt feel like you are swinging a 16" gun around. My drill speeds are always quicker with the SR vs. other 16" midlengths. If you add in a Triple Tap or the new BattleComp not only will you have a very quick gun but one that has little to no muzzle rise, and won't shatter your shooting buddies ear drums either.
It's a very nice rifle, I'd say the biggest strength of the rifle is it comes with everything minus optics, and optics are not something you can just ship with a rifle, everyone has a personal preference.
BUIS (really good ones)
SOPMOD Stock
Great rail system
Vertical grip if that's your thing
Sling adapters (x2)
The only thing I don't like is the proprietary bolt and barrel (not the function, but the parts availability). Yes, it's a great piece but should you have to replace it, you have to go through KAC, and that's difficult as KAC has a lot of military contracts that get priority over civilian products. THAT SAID! I would not be surprised when people burn out their SR-15 E3, they just buy a whole new upper, because the lowers are in my humble opinion, perfect.
Army Chief
07-16-10, 20:41
As others have already so capably said, there is just that intangible "something" about these rifles that defines comparison to anything else on the market.
I've not had the pleasure of taking one to the firing line as yet, but when you pick one up for the first time, it does make an immediate impression. These don't feel like comparable mid-gas guns, and the weight difference/distribution will leave you wondering how they managed it. They are light -- very light -- and shoulder so naturally that you almost forget that it is an AR-based system. Is the SR series the ultimate evolution of the Stoner design? Well, a lot of folks would seem to think so, including (apparently) the late Gene Stoner himself.
While I realize it isn't terribly instructive to call this one of those "greater than the sum of its parts" situations, quite honestly, I do think that the expression captures it well. Everything about the SR seems to be just a little better than the competition, a little more innovative then the rest, and a little more advanced than standard fare. When taken as a whole, the results are impressive, to say the least.
AC
Even though I'd shot my LWRCi gun more, I still shot the KAC better.
It just shoots amazing. Runs very well suppressed as well. :)
(I only have experience with it in 11.5'' SBR form. I had my KAC barrel shortened. It'll be 12.5'' soon after I get a Noveske Crusader barrel.)
Are you saying that you had an E3 barrel cut to 11.5"? How is that possible given the longer gas system of the E3?
I got to handle one a few times and was very impressed, but I've never had the chance to shoot one.
It feels so much like a toy gun:).....you absolutely have to feel one in person to understand just how well the gun handles and balances.
Its in the clear top 3 best guns outta the box Ive ever come across...you get soooo many unique and truly game changing features that its a bargin for give or take 2k.
The "Stoner Rifle" roll mark kinda makes me weak in the knees as well:p
Just out of curiosity, what would you say are the other two?
I got to handle one a few times and was very impressed, but I've never had the chance to shoot one.
Just out of curiosity, what would you say are the other two?
LMT MRP Rifle length w. 16" D.I.
LMT MRP CQB 10.5" D.I......Have not actually fielded this gun however its in the works;)
Colt 6520....the only gun that feels outta the box better than the SR15 that is not a sbr imho....but obviously until one mods the a2 for a m4 flattop it isn't exactly optics ready.
we had a hard problem selling them at first, people just didnt understand why they should pay $2k+ on a non-piston gun.
i've sold 4, and every single one i've sold was because i let them put 5 rounds through mine. :cool:
spamsammich
07-18-10, 00:46
Got to handle one today. I had just put together a BCM LW 16" Middy on an LMT lower with all Magpul MOE gear and VTAC TRX Extreme rail. I'll be damned if that SR-15 wasn't almost as light as my rifle!!! It felt really well balanced and thought out. It was sorta like the first time I drove a brand new Bimmer, I got what the buzz was about when I considered all the details. It's still a large chunk of change, but it is quite unlike any AR I have handled or put together. I can see myself getting one in the future.
Magic_Salad0892
07-18-10, 03:51
Are you saying that you had an E3 barrel cut to 11.5"? How is that possible given the longer gas system of the E3?
They drilled a new gas port, I'm not familiar with the process.
Army Chief
07-18-10, 06:48
In thinking about my earlier comments, and those of others in the thread, what I probably left unsaid was that the SR delivers an exceptional sense of balance. I'm not talking about balance in terms of handling here, but rather in terms of overall configuration. You can get a two-stage trigger elsewhere. You can purchase a competitor's free float rail system. You can find other back up iron sights that are just as well made. You can certainly buy a SOPMOD stock or mid-gassed barrel from alternate vendors. If you look hard enough, you can even get your hands on lowers with ambidextrous controls and enhanced-ish bolts. The list goes on, from QD sling mounts to rail panels and VFGs. You can source most all of these things -- piece by piece -- from a variety of other places to build the right AR for your individual needs; in fact, that is precisely what most of us have been doing for years.
This, I think, is where the SR causes one to take a step back, because all of these features are already present on the KAC, and they are present in a very well integrated manner. The result is a production gun that boasts a balance of features that can meet most any need without any real modification. Add an optic, and you're ready to pop caps. What's more, since we're talking about a factory configuration, much of the trial and error that we've traditionally associated with the process (will this mount work in conjunction with that rail, etc., etc.) is removed.
I do not yet own one, but every time I pick up an SR, I find myself a little closer to that point. I've never been prone to riding on anyone's bandwagon -- much less KAC's -- but I really have to hand it to them on this carbine.
AC
KAC was nice enough to send me a pre-production model, which I wrote about in the January 2009 SWAT Magazine.
I'm not really into the whole "intangibles" and "just feels right" thing, so I'll just give my impressions.
I expected the gun to be heavier. With the length of the rail and the SOPMOD stock it looks like a heavy gun. Fully jocked up with Aimpoint, sling, BUIS, VFG it weighed in at just a shade over 8 lbs.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/KAC%20SR-15/DSC_2066e800.jpg
Once I knew what it weighed, I expected it to recoil more and be less controllable. It wasn't. This is due in large part to the tuning that KAC did with the gas port and the longer gas tube. Warning, the gas tube is one of several non-standard parts on this gun. It's not even a standard mid-length or rifle-length. It is, however, standard to KAC as it's the SR25 gas tube.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/KAC%20SR-15/DSC_2061Medium.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/KAC%20SR-15/DSC_1999Medium.jpg
There are several unique and non-standard parts on this gun. There is the gas tube, mentioned above, but there is also the complete bolt (inclusive of extractor, extractor springs, etc.) and the barrel extension it mates to. These parts, in conjunction with the hammer-forged barrel, are supposed to push service life upwards of 20k rounds. I cannot vouch for this personally but others have put far more than this on their guns without issue.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/KAC%20SR-15/DSC_1974e800.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/KAC%20SR-15/boltfaces800.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/KAC%20SR-15/chambers800.jpg
Given all of the above, I expected it to be expensive, and it both is and isn't. For a first AR, right out of the gate, I'd still suggest people buy one of the upcoming BCM mid-length guns with standard furniture for significantly less money than the KAC. However, for those that KNOW they want the features offered in the KAC, at $2k+/- it's actually right on par with a similar setup you'd build yourself, but could be viewed as an even better deal if you believe the service life claims.
Building a relatively equivalent gun, without the E3 features:
$875 BCM BFH 16" Mid Length Upper Receiver Group w/ Daniel Defense LITE 12" Handguard (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-BFH-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Daniel-p/bcm-urg-mid-16%20bfh%20ddl12.htm)
$140 BCM Bolt Carrier Group (MPI) - Auto (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bolt-Carrier-Group-MPI-Auto-M16-p/bcm%20bolt%20carrier%20group%20auto%20mp.htm)
$23 BCM AR15 Charging Handle (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR15-Charging-Handle-BCM-p/bcm%20charging%20handle%20ar15.htm)
$100 BCM Folding Battle Sight - Front - M4 Type - (mfg by Troy Ind) (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Folding-Battle-Sight-Front-p/bcm%20front%20sight%20rail%20mount%20m4.htm)
$120 BCM Folding Battle Sight - REAR (mfg by Troy Ind) (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Folding-Battle-Sight-REAR-p/bcm%20rear%20sight%20troy.htm)
$340 BCM Lower Receiver Group (less stock body) (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/bcm%20order%20form%20vltor.pdf)
$200 LMT SOPMOD Stock - BLACK (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/LMT-SOPMOD-STOCK-BLACK-p/lmt%20sopmod%20stock%20black.htm)
I believe that puts you right around $1800 and the complete upper price is something that's currently on sale with an MSRP of $200 more. Again this does not include the ambidextrous controls of the SR15, or the E3 bolt features.
The SR15 is certainly not for everyone, and the popularity is certainly riding the coat-tails of being seen in the right hands in the right places (what product isn't these days?), but it's a good value if you're looking for that particular combination of parts/features.
What's the secret to the light weight? Barrel configuration? How much does the URX handguard weigh? The SOPMOD is a great stock, but it is not the lightest - you could easily shave a few more ounces off with a simple stock body swap...
I find myself increasingly interested in the SR15E3 - somewhat to my surprise. With buzz about the ACR, SCAR and MR556, I had tuned out the KAC offering as an overpriced AR15 with a proprietary bolt. Yet it seems that while the luster of those other 'next-gen' carbines is fading, the KAC has developed a loyal following. I plan to check one out.
In thinking about my earlier comments, and those of others in the thread, what I probably left unsaid was that the SR delivers an exceptional sense of balance. I'm not talking about balance in terms of handling here, but rather in terms of overall configuration. You can get a two-stage trigger elsewhere. You can purchase a competitor's free float rail system. You can find other back up iron sights that are just as well made. You can certainly buy a SOPMOD stock or mid-gassed barrel from alternate vendors. If you look hard enough, you can even get your hands on lowers with ambidextrous controls and enhanced-ish bolts. The list goes on, from QD sling mounts to rail panels and VFGs. You can source most all of these things -- piece by piece -- from a variety of other places to build the right AR for your individual needs; in fact, that is precisely what most of us have been doing for years.
This, I think, is where the SR causes one to take a step back, because all of these features are already present on the KAC, and they are present in a very well integrated manner. The result is a production gun that boasts a balance of features that can meet most any need without any real modification. Add an optic, and you're ready to pop caps. What's more, since we're talking about a factory configuration, much of the trial and error that we've traditionally associated with the process (will this mount work in conjunction with that rail, etc., etc.) is removed.
I do not yet own one, but every time I pick up an SR, I find myself a little closer to that point. I've never been prone to riding on anyone's bandwagon -- much less KAC's -- but I really have to hand it to them on this carbine.
AC
Exactly. I had a chance to fool around with one last weekend and was equally as surprised as everyone else is with how light it is, but I feel like KAC over did it with accessory modifications. Hands down its the best fighting carbine on the market but as a civi the price simply isnt justifiable. I'd much rather see KAC sell a bare SR-15 and drop the price than continue to sell them in this configuration.
I personally enjoy shooting my SR15 more than my 6920. The price is a non-issue if you factor in the aftermarket parts normally associated with configuring an AR for some people. There is definitely reduced recoil in the SR15, and a nice trigger break due to it's included two stage. The ambi-controls are really nice too. Some have said that it can lead to training scars, which I admit can be true, but I'll take any advantage I can get. I only wish it was the first AR I had ever owned, then I really could have saved some money. ;)
It's the best damn rifle on the market period.
Feels like a freaking airsoft rifle it's light!
Has everything ready to rock out of the box just include your favorite optic. I personally went with a T-1 which is also freaking light.
Is the gas tube of the KAC longer than a standard middie?
Is the gas tube of the KAC longer than a standard middie?
yes it is.
This is due in large part to the tuning that KAC did with the gas port and the longer gas tube. Warning, the gas tube is one of several non-standard parts on this gun. It's not even a standard mid-length or rifle-length. It is, however, standard to KAC as it's the SR25 gas tube.
yes it is.
So did they change the diameter of the port hole?
motorolahamm
07-19-10, 14:19
bottom line its built by knights armament:)
So did they change the diameter of the port hole?
uncle.
BufordTJustice
07-19-10, 16:16
Reed and Trey Knight understand the DI/AR15 system as just that; a system.
Their ability to conceptualize and manipulate the system to accomplish exactly what they want (i.e. balancing gas volume, recoil impulse, dwell time, etc.) is un-matched in the industry. Period. Further, the tolerances that their CNC machines can hold are unequaled as well. I have never shot an SR15, but held one many times. They feel so solid, yet so light.
Rob_s, Great post.
I once heard that the inner chambers of their bolt carrier/gas key and the outer surface of their bolt are sized and contoured perfectly (and slightly different from standard AR's) to maximize the gas flow from their proprietary gas port. They make less gas 'go further' and 'work harder' with no penalty in reliability. Simply stated: You can't get their shit anywhere else. ;)
Middlelength
07-19-10, 16:24
As many have said, an incredible balance of weight and features. It is an expensive rifle, but also a bargain at that price. No one else makes a rifle that even compares in features unless we are talking a 6920 for $999.
The barrel is a very light profile, almost pencil, which contributes immeasurably to the feel. Too many manufacturers are still caught up in the HBar craze.
The URX is a joy, the ambi controls are great, and the rifle gives the appearance that no amount of attention to detail was spared.
The trigger is almost as good as an SSA, the SOPMOD is great, if you are looking for one, but in all likelihood I will continue to pare down my AR collection so that I can have two of these. It is probably the best fighting carbine out there, and I don't offer that lightly. It isn't perfect, but it is close.
GermanSynergy
07-19-10, 19:02
FWIW,
I ran my SR15E3 at the LAV Advanced Carbine / Handgun class at Blackwater this weekend.
It had one malfunction (my error, faling to seat mag hard enough during mobile shooting) during the entire three days.
Ammunition used was 1992 Radway Green British SS109, and the rifle was not cleaned for the entire weekend (just lubed generously with LT Machinegun lube).
For those that haven't handled the SR15E3, it's simply outstanding. Looks are decieving, and the rifle feels much lighter than one would assume. In fact, the HK 416 I fired yesterday felt like a ton of bricks compared to the Knight's. :)
The carbine "feels" light as a switch, and the features that it comes with out of the box are unrivalled.
No question about it, Knight's has hit a home run with the SR15E3!
rlgdestroyu@hotmail.com
07-19-10, 21:33
Just buy one...you'll love it....I did.:D
Belmont31R
07-19-10, 21:55
FWIW,
I ran my SR15E3 at the LAV Advanced Carbine / Handgun class at Blackwater this weekend.
It had one malfunction (my error, faling to seat mag hard enough during mobile shooting) during the entire three days.
Ammunition used was 1992 Radway Green British SS109, and the rifle was not cleaned for the entire weekend (just lubed generously with LT Machinegun lube).
For those that haven't handled the SR15E3, it's simply outstanding. Looks are decieving, and the rifle feels much lighter than one would assume. In fact, the HK 416 I fired yesterday felt like a ton of bricks compared to the Knight's. :)
The carbine "feels" light as a switch, and the features that it comes with out of the box are unrivalled.
No question about it, Knight's has hit a home run with the SR15E3!
At the range I always get people checking my stuff out, and I always let people run a mag or two through any of my stuff just to see how they shoot. Everyone is always amazed at how light the SR is, and how well it shoots. People who are not familiar with them cannot wrap their minds around how such a quick point, light, balanced, and "fun" gun to shoot can be so soft shooting (it does have a 3T on it). The only thing people get confused about is how it says Stoner on the side, and people think thats the brand. I have to flip it over, and show them the KAC logo on the other side....:cool:
Even a spruced up 6920 is not going to add up to the SR due to the gas system length, the bolt design is not as strong, and due to the barrel profile it doesn't point as well.
At 2 grand, I would gladly give up 2 of my other ARs for one.
Is the lug design patented? They put sling swivels just about everywhere on that rifle.
Army Chief
07-19-10, 22:35
Just buy one...
Done.
AC
BufordTJustice
07-19-10, 23:16
At 2 grand, I would gladly give up 2 of my other ARs for one.
Is the lug design patented?
The entire bolt assembly (lugs, cam-pin hole, extractor assembly, bolt face, etc. are unique) is patented.
blackcpull
07-19-10, 23:33
Everyone, I really appreiciate all you help with this. What is the best way to order one?
Magic_Salad0892
07-20-10, 00:42
I think Grant has them in stock.
That's where I should have ordered mine. And where I might order my second one. (and third. If I go with the ''two is one and one is none'' rationale.)
Everyone, I really appreiciate all you help with this. What is the best way to order one?
Give Casey an email or call at Lawmen's....that is where I would look first if I was buying one tom. Grant is another great choice and Wes at MSTN has them more than likely in stock.
GermanSynergy
07-20-10, 08:16
I got mine from Wes at MSTN, FWIW.
rlgdestroyu@hotmail.com
07-20-10, 08:40
I bought mine on Gunbroker. I found a good deal.
Done.
AC
Ditto, I just ordered mine this morning. Initially I was looking at Piston Rifles, but when I read more about the SR15, read more reports from owners and knowing that this was Gene Stoner's final effort, I was sold on it. Add in the fact of the other lineage involved like the Mk11, and M110, I feel comfortable knowing I made a solid choice.
RogerinTPA
07-20-10, 14:17
I just recently checked out Khight's website. I noticed that there is no bolts, BCGs, or extractors for sale. Where do you get spare parts? Are they special order items?
There is a field repair kit available, it has a cam pin, extractor, firing pin, rings, and all the associated little springs and pins. As far as a bolt goes, or a BCG, I think you may have to send your rifle in for that. I wouldn't mind having a spare of that myself, although the likelyhood of needing it is remote. Still couldn't hurt any...;)
I just recently checked out Khight's website. I noticed that there is no bolts, BCGs, or extractors for sale. Where do you get spare parts? Are they special order items?
The same folks that carry the complete SR's usually carry the spare parts.....Casey @ Lawmen's/ Wes @ MSTN.
Moreover, Knights has a presence both here and the other site and from my experience would be more than happy to deal with you in regards to getting your gun up and running should these couple proprietary parts break which I doubt considering KAC makes them after all:)
I just recently checked out Khight's website. I noticed that there is no bolts, BCGs, or extractors for sale. Where do you get spare parts? Are they special order items?
The response I've typically heard from KAC on this is "you won't need spares", but I wouldn't buy a rifle with proprietary parts without also stocking up on spares for those parts. I'd want an extractor and spring, complete bolt, and gas tube, all sitting in my range bag if I bought an SR15. With a little prodding I think that KAC will sell you these parts, or plans to in the future, but they are no doubt spendy.
eternal24k
07-21-10, 07:55
I am currently working on my "last" build, I keep asking myself "should I have gone with the KAC??",
It is no doubt arguably the best AR for the money, but I decided to go a different route and build my answer to the KAC for several reasons:
1) as mentioned, proprietary parts. Gas tube, bolt, and barrel dictates non-standard parts.
2) extra costs in tooling, $250 for the parts to remove rail, this is big for me since I do not like sending off my rifles and to be honest, I dont know what the future will hold, so for the same reason i am working on tooling up to reload I dont want to be at the mercy of a long distance smith.
that's actually all i had except for the satisfaction of building. Both of those reasons fall under the same category pretty much, but with an extra upper of any kind one could easily be 100% ok for the long run, which makes me ofter question my choices on not going KAC... lol
RogerinTPA
07-21-10, 21:00
The response I've typically heard from KAC on this is "you won't need spares", but I wouldn't buy a rifle with proprietary parts without also stocking up on spares for those parts. I'd want an extractor and spring, complete bolt, and gas tube, all sitting in my range bag if I bought an SR15. With a little prodding I think that KAC will sell you these parts, or plans to in the future, but they are no doubt spendy.
My thoughts exactly. I have been entertaining the thought of getting another AR, but I'm torn between a light weight pencil build, which would have common parts with my other ARs and a SR15, which does not. If I go the SR15 route, I want 2 or 3 of everything that can wear or fail.
Belmont31R
07-21-10, 21:44
I am currently working on my "last" build, I keep asking myself "should I have gone with the KAC??",
It is no doubt arguably the best AR for the money, but I decided to go a different route and build my answer to the KAC for several reasons:
1) as mentioned, proprietary parts. Gas tube, bolt, and barrel dictates non-standard parts.
2) extra costs in tooling, $250 for the parts to remove rail, this is big for me since I do not like sending off my rifles and to be honest, I dont know what the future will hold, so for the same reason i am working on tooling up to reload I dont want to be at the mercy of a long distance smith.
that's actually all i had except for the satisfaction of building. Both of those reasons fall under the same category pretty much, but with an extra upper of any kind one could easily be 100% ok for the long run, which makes me ofter question my choices on not going KAC... lol
Proprietary parts is an issue but you can get spares on your own.
With the lower, gas system length, and bolt design you aren't going to build the same gun on your own.
I don't have a problem with the parts because I have several other AR's that can take its place, and if need to use it in SHFT the slim chance of a parts failure is lessened with the SR design to begin with.
The SR is designed to be an out of the box performer. Sounds like you prefer to do your own work, and in that case its probably not the best option for you. I prefer to not do my own work, and like my shit right out of the box.
eternal24k
07-21-10, 22:10
Correct,
call me paranoid, but after seeing the creation and sunset of a ban in my short life, I can't help but plan for the next, in that case I am looking at having the ability to maintain it myself with parts interchangeability providing around average of 5-10 "spares" for every part.
Like I said, KAC is arguably the best AR for the money, but for me ARs are my Legos and when it comes to cars and everything else to be used I would never want to get myself into something I couldnt fix or maintain in the LONG run.
If I had started with an E3, I would stick to them, but buying one now would make it the odd duck, and with that, I often recommend them to anybody looking for the best out of box AR
I hear the concerns about the proprietary parts and I can assure you there isn't any issues with individuals getting replacement parts. The most commonly requested parts people ask me about are spare bolts and field repair kits, both of these are readily available for the commercial market. In fact here are the part numbers.
SR15 field repair kit #23339-1
Stripped e3 bolt #20433
As for the gas tube I have yet to be asked about that one but I will look into it.
Good info Casey, thanks for that. Are those parts listed on the site, or can you give us a rundown of what's in the field repair kit?
I must admit, I get closer and closer to selling my #1 16" gun and getting an SR15 instead.
I don't have any real immediate concern re: a gas tube, but it's just in my nature to want spares of any proprietary parts. When I bought my first mid-length I also bought a half-dozen mid-length gas tubes to go with the half-dozen carbine-length as well. I also keep spare FCG and pin sets for the Colt lowers I have from before they changed to standard sizes. Not because I think they stock parts will fail any time soon, but just because I think it's prudent to have them.
rlgdestroyu@hotmail.com
07-22-10, 11:28
Good info Casey, thanks for that. Are those parts listed on the site, or can you give us a rundown of what's in the field repair kit?
+1
I would love a rundown as well.
Army Chief
07-22-10, 13:34
I look at it this way: KAC just won my ACR money, and had I gone with the Bushmaster, I would be in even worse shape when it comes to finding parts.
I can live with the fact that KAC may still be getting the parts train up and running for spares, though it sounds like it's really less a question of availability, and more a question of what/when to buy.
AC
I'd rather it had a standard bolt group and I pocket the cost savings.
Bored with quality ARs and looking to try something new. Trying to decide between the E3 and 16S. I don't doubt the durability of the E3 bolt and barrel, but how long does the two-stage trigger usually last?
Army Chief
07-22-10, 16:54
I'd rather it had a standard bolt group and I pocket the cost savings.
Wouldn't that sort of defeat the whole purpose of the oversized lugs, improved extractor and other enhancements unique to the E3 bolt? I thought the whole point of the AR-15E3 was that it represents a final evolution of the original Stoner design ... all in one integrated package.
If thus is indeed the case, it would only make sense that such an effort should include some proprietary/non-standard parts; otherwise, the SR would be just another well-equipped baseline M4 -- and you can buy those from folks like DD all day long.
I've no wish to sound like a marketing executive here, but from a purely technical standpoint, I'm not sure that we should be thinking about the SR as just another AR, so much as a step beyond the AR. The shared DNA is certainly there, but it probably compares more favorably to a piston gun or AR-derivative than it does to a garden variety 6920.
AC
I'd rather it had a standard bolt group and I pocket the cost savings.
What savings?
Hands down my favorite AR. My Noveske held the top spot in the safe, until I picked up the Knight. The Noveske isn't even in the same league.
BufordTJustice
07-22-10, 19:41
Wouldn't that sort of defeat the whole purpose of the oversized lugs, improved extractor and other enhancements unique to the E3 bolt? I thought the whole point of the AR-15E3 was that it represents a final evolution of the original Stoner design ... all in one integrated package.
If thus is indeed the case, it would only make sense that such an effort should include some proprietary/non-standard parts; otherwise, the SR would be just another well-equipped baseline M4 -- and you can buy those from folks like DD all day long.
I've no wish to sound like a marketing executive here, but from a purely technical standpoint, I'm not sure that we should be thinking about the SR as just another AR, so much as a step beyond the AR. The shared DNA is certainly there, but it probably compares more favorably to a piston gun or AR-derivative than it does to a garden variety 6920.
AC
+1
Eugene Stoner spent his last years working for/at KAC while they were in Vero Beach, FL (my hometown). For all of the innovative designs Gene came up with since the AR, I'd have to imagine that you're getting MORE in design and quality than in a standard AR. Reed Knight gave him the resources he needed to create things like the SR15, M110, etc. and to refine designs like the newer KAC LMG (from the stoner 63 design).
Besides, I'm quite confident that you could procure spare parts for the rifle if you asked the right people.
Analogy: The only penalty to buying a Porsche/Ferrari is that you will spend very little time at the local discount auto parts store. The upside is that you will get performance that redefines your paradigm on what a sports car should be. The KAC SR15 is like a Porsche/Ferrari; you pay a little extra for a LOT more engineering.
Heck, a Noveske setup of similar design (i.e. a 16" railed Recce) won't be much cheaper...and you won't have ambi-everything, improved bolt, Improved barrel extension, improved feed ramps, improved gas system, and superb weapon balance from a 16" barrel. It IS expensive...but you get a LOT for what you pay. We're not talking a bushmaster ACR here. ;)
Heck, a Noveske setup of similar design (i.e. a 16" railed Recce) won't be much cheaper...and you won't have ambi-everything, improved bolt, Improved barrel extension, improved feed ramps, improved gas system, and superb weapon balance from a 16" barrel. It IS expensive...but you get a LOT for what you pay. We're not talking a bushmaster ACR here. ;)
Actually, MSRP on a Noveske N4 Recce Lo-Pro is $2,135 and can be had for about $2,095. You can buy an SR15 E3 for $2K or less all day long. This is what frustrates me about the "KAC is too expensive" argument. It is complete B.S. No one ever says that a Noveske rifle is too expensive, expensive yes, but not "too expensive". These opinions are almost always justified with the reasoning that they (Noveske) are considered to be a top-end, high quality gun. IMHO, my KAC is everything that my custom Noveske N4 upper is, and then some. I much prefer my E3 due to it's lighter weight and better balance / handling. In addition to that, I get all the enhanced E3 features, for less than a comparable complete N4 rifle. It is every bit as accurate as my Noveske upper is as well.
I hear the concerns about the proprietary parts and I can assure you there isn't any issues with individuals getting replacement parts. The most commonly requested parts people ask me about are spare bolts and field repair kits, both of these are readily available for the commercial market. In fact here are the part numbers.
SR15 field repair kit #23339-1
Stripped e3 bolt #20433
As for the gas tube I have yet to be asked about that one but I will look into it.
From MSTN's ad on TOS:
STRIPPED SR15 E3 BOLT, P/N 20433, $250.
SR15 E3 BOLT REPAIR KIT, P/N 23339-1, $125. INCLUDES THE FOLLOWING:
E3 EXTRACTOR
E3 DUAL EXTRACTOR SPRINGS
E3 EXTRACTOR PIN
E3 CAM PIN
EJECTOR - STANDARD FORMAT
EJECTOR SPRING - STANDARD FORMAT
EJECTOR PIN - STANDARD FORMAT
THREE GAS RINGS - STANDARD FORAMT
FIRING PIN - STANDARD FORMAT
Since this has turned into sort of a "proprietary parts" discussion, I would love to get an update from III or KevinB on some of their high round count bolts & their observed lifespans. I'm sure Costa has a ton of rounds through his and there was a competitive shooter (maybe Barnhart?) that had thousands through his as well.
BufordTJustice
07-22-10, 20:20
Actually, MSRP on a Noveske N4 Recce Lo-Pro is $2,135 and can be had for about $2,095. You can buy an SR15 E3 for $2K or less all day long. This is what frustrates me about the "KAC is too expensive" argument. It is complete B.S. No one ever says that a Noveske rifle is too expensive, expensive yes, but not "too expensive". These opinions are almost always justified with the reasoning that they (Noveske) are considered to be a top-end, high quality gun. IMHO, my KAC is everything that my custom Noveske N4 upper is, and then some. I much prefer my E3 due to it's lighter weight and better balance / handling. In addition to that, I get all the enhanced E3 features, for less than a comparable complete N4 rifle. It is every bit as accurate as my Noveske upper is as well.
I stand corrected...the value is even better than I thought.
+1 on Getting KevinB over here for an update on parts lifespans.
What savings?
I assume it would be cheaper without all the proprietary bolt/barrel components.
Great rifle, and superior rail. But I'd get a BCM with a URX and pocket the difference.
For those of us on the ammunition budgets of mere mortals, the SR15E3's advantages aren't going to be as apparent, KAC clearly realized that for low volume shooters, their other products filled that niche adequately.
I assume it would be cheaper without all the proprietary bolt/barrel components.
Great rifle, and superior rail. But I'd get a BCM with a URX and pocket the difference.
There wouldn't be much to pocket. The BFH upper from BCM with a set of Troy rear sights, BCM BCG and standard charging handle would run you $1400. To compare apples to apples, add in a complete BCM lower from G&R ($340), SOPMOD ($180) & KAC 2-stage trigger ($330) and you're looking at another $850 for a grand total of $2,250, or more than the SR15 E3 MSRP. You would have one hell of a nice rifle, but you'd end up sourcing parts from a couple of different dealers, paying additional shipping etc., when you could have, at a bare minimum, an equally nice rifle for less money and ready to roll out of the box with the E3. Oh yeah, and the BCM would be using the supposedly less expensive standard parts.
Sorry guys, the "I can do better for less $$" argument really doesn't work in this situation.
ETA: I think the only thing that you could do differently to save $$, and still have a very comparable rifle, would be to use a Geissele SSA trigger. That would shave off about $150, but you would still be at $2100. Some would argue for a different rail, but then you'd have to also purchase a front buis, negating any savings on an alternative rail.
For those of us on the ammunition budgets of mere mortals, the SR15E3's advantages aren't going to be as apparent, KAC clearly realized that for low volume shooters, their other products filled that niche adequately.
That's an interesting perspective, and admittedly, one that I had not considered. You are correct, most of us, myself included, will never put enough rounds through an E3 to really push it beyond it's limits. I think you've hit on why they don't offer a less equipped version of E3. There are plenty of products to fill that niche.
OTOH, anyone can appreciate the softer recoil, better handling and out of the box value that the E3 offers for a fully tricked out carbine.
I think BCMs new lightweight offerings and their new 14.5" middie with an optimized gas system, will give similar performace advantages as the E3 where balance, handling & recoil management are concerned. But they won't be any less expensive if equipped similarly. It's good to see innovation in the industry, our options just keep getting better and better!
Magic_Salad0892
07-22-10, 22:22
The only thing that could make the option better would be if they started selling 11.5'' uppers.
I'd even suck up the thin barrel if they did.
I'd love a factory heavy barrel from KAC though.
The only thing that could make the option better would be if they started selling 11.5'' uppers.
+1 !!!
Army Chief
07-23-10, 06:08
For those of us on the ammunition budgets of mere mortals, the SR15E3's advantages aren't going to be as apparent ...
I'm tracking on the general line of reasoning here, thought it is probably worth observing that the light weight, refined balance and soft recoil pulse of the SR-15 are going to be appreciated by pretty much any shooter, regardless of his annual round count. Just picking up the gun sold me on the concept, and I've yet to ring any steel with one at all.
The only thing that could make the option better would be if they started selling 11.5'' uppers. I'd even suck up the thin barrel if they did. I'd love a factory heavy barrel from KAC though.
Such versions of the SR-16 uppper may well be available in the future, if they aren't already in certain quarters, but I find some of this puzzling. Given that one of the SR-15's greatest advantages would seem to be the lightweight barrel, and that prolonged strings of automatic fire probably aren't on our list of requirements, why would you wish for a heavier barrel?
Don't get me wrong: I own an LE 6920HB, so I understand the appeal of a heavier profile in certain situations; even so, any time I can shave a few ounces off without adversely affecting function, accuracy or reliability, I'm probably going to be in favor of that. Unless we're talking about a harmonics on a precision bolt gun or something pertaining to a full-auto application, there doesn't seem to be much of an argument in favor of going heavier. Am I missing something obvious here?
AC
It is every bit as accurate as my Noveske upper is as well.
can you elaborate on this statement? What kind of testing have you done, and what model Noveske are you comparing it to?
IIRC KAC isn't making a tack driver here and isn't claiming to, with 2-3 MOA being the goal. A Noveske, even an N4, fed proper ammo should be capable of much better than this.
One of my other reservations about the SR15 has been the accuracy standard. I've gotten it into my head that if I'm going to own a 16"+ AR it should be my one tack driver.
All I can say is the SR 15 has made quite a few folks hypocrites given I have debated countless times in defense of Colt's L.W. pencil profiled barrel only to hear people talk about S/A fire eating em up or warping em. Some have problems seeing that LW pencil barrels are big winners in the LE and Civilian markets where F/A applications are far and few between with duty ARs, training ARs and Range ARs.....it makes no sense to lug around a heavier profiled barrel when you will never use its inherit benefits. If you get a Colt 6520 barrel or this new SR15 barrel and feed it the proper loads you can come close to moa with em which is at most a .25" to the Colt HB and if you need more accuracy than that you should not be buying a carbine type in the first place and should be looking at a precision based 18" gun.
can you elaborate on this statement? What kind of testing have you done, and what model Noveske are you comparing it to?
IIRC KAC isn't making a tack driver here and isn't claiming to, with 2-3 MOA being the goal. A Noveske, even an N4, fed proper ammo should be capable of much better than this.
One of my other reservations about the SR15 has been the accuracy standard. I've gotten it into my head that if I'm going to own a 16"+ AR it should be my one tack driver.
I think you are pretty much correct on your assessment and this gun was never meant to shoot sub moa or anything as its much more of a fighting gun. People see that long beautiful rail(urx) that SRs have and assume its a Recon or Recce type but rather its a carbine with a really lite and long rail to incorporate that beautiful gas system that is one of its biggest assets. I have a hard time believing that this SR barrel would be accurate as any noveske barrel as well.
I had the pleasure to handle two SR-15's, side by side, in a shop the other day.
One of the rifles had a bolt catch with a casting line through the center (like you find on a cheap parts kit in my experience), the other rifle did not...
Guess what you get depends on the day of the week... which was/is a turn off for me personally.
From MSTN's ad on TOS:
STRIPPED SR15 E3 BOLT, P/N 20433, $250.
SR15 E3 BOLT REPAIR KIT, P/N 23339-1, $125. INCLUDES THE FOLLOWING:
E3 EXTRACTOR
E3 DUAL EXTRACTOR SPRINGS
E3 EXTRACTOR PIN
E3 CAM PIN
EJECTOR - STANDARD FORMAT
EJECTOR SPRING - STANDARD FORMAT
EJECTOR PIN - STANDARD FORMAT
THREE GAS RINGS - STANDARD FORAMT
FIRING PIN - STANDARD FORMAT
You nailed it, the only thing not mentioned above that is also included in the field repair kit is it also comes with the firing pin retaining pin (aka cotter pin), also just as a footnote the firing pin is not a standard firing pin previous threads have already explained it. So essentially a field repair kit will allow someone to either do a complete build rebuild or have a complete bolt system as a backup.
can you elaborate on this statement? What kind of testing have you done, and what model Noveske are you comparing it to?
IIRC KAC isn't making a tack driver here and isn't claiming to, with 2-3 MOA being the goal. A Noveske, even an N4, fed proper ammo should be capable of much better than this.
One of my other reservations about the SR15 has been the accuracy standard. I've gotten it into my head that if I'm going to own a 16"+ AR it should be my one tack driver.
My N4 is a custom build by Grant. I used a 16" N4 barrel on an MUR with a rifle length URX & BCM BCG. I have shot both uppers with a variety of ammo and have been able to get 10 shot groups in the 1.25" - 1.50" range with both, depending on the ammo. I used a 15x scope in an ADM Recon mount @ 100 yds. off of sand bags front & rear. I don't keep records of my groups, so I don't have the data to say one rifle is .25 MOA more accurate than the other.
Maybe my N4 isn't as accurate as some others, but I think Molon got an average group of around 1.25" with one he tested. Or maybe my E3s have been better than most, but I doubt it. I've had two E3 uppers and they both shot very well, and well below the 2-3 MOA stated goal.
Ammo used was a variety of BH 75 gr., Mk 262, Hornady TAP Practice 75 gr., Federal .223 55 gr., Centurion .223 55 gr., Lake City M193. Obviously, not all of these performed equally, but at least one of these provided nice tight groups at 100 yds. with each upper. The BH, TAP Practice and Fed .223 seemed to shoot the best. Surprisingly, the Mk 262 seems to be about a 2 MOA round, no matter what I shoot it out of, but I have never tried it in a precision upper. Bottom line, in my sample of three they all shoot about the same, at least in my untrained hands. IMHO, the N4 barrels are accurate, bot not the tack drivers that everyone assumes they are and the E3 is more accurate than most people give them credit for.
I had the pleasure to handle two SR-15's, side by side, in a shop the other day.
One of the rifles had a bolt catch with a casting line through the center (like you find on a cheap parts kit in my experience), the other rifle did not...
Guess what you get depends on the day of the week... which was/is a turn off for me personally.
Please do not let a line in the middle of a bolt catch cast prevent you from at least appreciating how nice of an AR the SR 15 is, if not all together own one:)
My N4 is a custom build by Grant. I used a 16" N4 barrel on an MUR with a rifle length URX & BCM BCG. I have shot both uppers with a variety of ammo and have been able to get 10 shot groups in the 1.25" - 1.50" range with both, depending on the ammo. I used a 15x scope in an ADM Recon mount @ 100 yds. off of sand bags front & rear. I don't keep records of my groups, so I don't have the data to say one rifle is .25 MOA more accurate than the other.
Maybe my N4 isn't as accurate as some others, but I think Molon got an average group of around 1.25" with one he tested. Or maybe my E3s have been better than most, but I doubt it. I've had two E3 uppers and they both shot very well, and well below the 2-3 MOA stated goal.
Ammo used was a variety of BH 75 gr., Mk 262, Hornady TAP Practice 75 gr., Federal .223 55 gr., Centurion .223 55 gr., Lake City M193. Obviously, not all of these performed equally, but at least one of these provided nice tight groups at 100 yds. with each upper. The BH, TAP Practice and Fed .223 seemed to shoot the best. Surprisingly, the Mk 262 seems to be about a 2 MOA round, no matter what I shoot it out of, but I have never tried it in a precision upper. Bottom line, in my sample of three they all shoot about the same, at least in my untrained hands. IMHO, the N4 barrels are accurate, bot not the tack drivers that every assumes they are and the E3 is more accurate than most people give them credit for.
Exactly the information I was looking for. Thanks for the post.
You know, sometimes I think people forget that the E3 uses a CHF barrel, which should inherently be a little more accurate than a standard barrel.
I have a new E3 upper that I just received from Casey. I'll shoot it tomorrow and post up my results if I have the time. The one thing I noticed while replacing the FH with a BattleComp yesterday, is that my E3 barrel has no crown to speak of. Part of me would like to send it to ADCO for re-crowning just to squeeze as much accuracy as possible out of it.
I have to say I love mine. As others have said it's a natural evolution of the AR. Without being locked down to some design characteristics KAC was able to improve the platform without completely distorting it's 'AR-ness'. As a lefty, I also have to say that the ambi controls are awesome. I have a ambi mag release on one of my other ARs but the KAC lower is just way better.
As to the proprietary parts 'problem', it's legitimate but over stated IMO. Yes, their are proprietary parts in the KAC, but nearly all of those provide an improvement over a stock AR. LMT MRPs, LWRCs, HK416s, SCARs, ACRs, and others have parts that are unique to their respective platforms. Even our handguns have unique parts. You can get the KAC parts, but they probably cost more. But since they last longer, is the cost per part that much more expensive over the life of the rifle? And if push comes to shove, you can replace the barrel and bolt and reuse the rest of the gun.
I think the SR-15 goes into a class of weapon like the LMT MRP. They are still mostly ARs, but they provide improvements and advancements you can't get by sticking slavishly to the AR platform.
I have to say I love mine. As others have said it's a natural evolution of the AR. Without being locked down to some design characteristics KAC was able to improve the platform without completely distorting it's 'AR-ness'. As a lefty, I also have to say that the ambi controls are awesome. I have a ambi mag release on one of my other ARs but the KAC lower is just way better.
As to the proprietary parts 'problem', it's legitimate but over stated IMO. Yes, their are proprietary parts in the KAC, but nearly all of those provide an improvement over a stock AR. LMT MRPs, LWRCs, HK416s, SCARs, ACRs, and others have parts that are unique to their respective platforms. Even our handguns have unique parts. You can get the KAC parts, but they probably cost more. But since they last longer, is the cost per part that much more expensive over the life of the rifle? And if push comes to shove, you can replace the barrel and bolt and reuse the rest of the gun.
I think the SR-15 goes into a class of weapon like the LMT MRP. They are still mostly ARs, but they provide improvements and advancements you can't get by sticking slavishly to the AR platform.
I would have to 125% agree with that statement...that is dead on.
Such versions of the SR-16 uppper may well be available in the future, if they aren't already in certain quarters, but I find some of this puzzling.
AC
Insert random image here....
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/KAC/868W0496-1024-Stick.jpg
Stick, your SR16 on the Noveske full-auto lower is one of the baddest rifles I've ever seen!
Just curious, does it have the E3 bolt?
variablebinary
07-23-10, 15:54
I think the SR-15 goes into a class of weapon like the LMT MRP. They are still mostly ARs, but they provide improvements and advancements you can't get by sticking slavishly to the AR platform.
I personally welcome the innovations offered by KAC.
There is a reason why KAC carbines are as cool as they are, and it isnt because they are shackled by a requirement to just be another AR15
Army Chief
07-23-10, 18:17
Insert random image here....
... and fortunately for us, you seem to have a lot of random images. =]
Was that a standard SR-16 (14.5") or the CQB variant (11.5")? I suppose most here would be more actively interested in the latter, though either would make a pretty fine SBR.
AC
OK, here are some examples that are very representative of what my SR15's have done in the past. This is from a brand new upper, just delivered this week. The SR15 is definitely better than a 2-3 MOA gun in my experience. For those who are wondering, this is about on par with the kind of accuracy I get from my Noveske N4 barrelled upper also.
Hornady TAP Practice 75 gr.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/mtdawg169/8ccc66c9.jpg
Mk 262 - I also had another 5-shot group that measured right at 1.5", but was more evenly spread.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/mtdawg169/e66ff40a.jpg
Black Hills Blue Box 75 gr.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/mtdawg169/8ccb0bdf.jpg
and just for fun... Mk 262 - 4 rounds
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/mtdawg169/36b7d15c.jpg
Wow, surprised to see the Black Hills do so "bad".
These groups are at 100? While obviously better than 2-3 MOA it's also obviously no tack-driver either. If I got those kinds of groups from a Noveske I think I'd be a little disappointed. I've gotten similar accuracy to what you're showing there with Wolf 75 grain out of my BCM standard mid-length (discounting the wild fliers you get with Wolf from time to time).
Wow, surprised to see the Black Hills do so "bad".
These groups are at 100? While obviously better than 2-3 MOA it's also obviously no tack-driver either. If I got those kinds of groups from a Noveske I think I'd be a little disappointed. I've gotten similar accuracy to what you're showing there with Wolf 75 grain out of my BCM standard mid-length (discounting the wild fliers you get with Wolf from time to time).
I agree Rob, it's not a tack driver, but it is no slouch either. I just wanted to show that it could do better than the advertised 2-3 MOA & It is definitely accurate enough for my purposes. As I stated previously, my experience has shown it to be about a 1.25 - 1.50 MOA rifle. This brand new upper met my expectations based on my prior experience with a couple of different E3's. These were at 100 yds, off of a front sandbag. I don't profess to be a great shot either. It was hot as hell today, gusting breeze from 5-10 mph and lots of mirage through the scope. I don't really know what effect any of that had on performance, just clarifying the shooting conditions. And yes, I have been underwhelmed with my Noveske. I'm really curious what this rifle could do with a proper crown on the barrel.
It should also be noted that I did not have a carbine buffer with me today to test out this new upper. All I had with me was an H buffer and a Tubbs CS flatwire spring. As a result, short stroking was the norm today and I often had to stop mid stream to rack the CH and chamber a round. I also had several bolt over bullet malfuntions. Today was really just a "get out and shoot" kind of day to get some initital rounds through the upper & zero sights. I'll be picking up a standard carbine buffer & spring this week and the malfs should go away.
30 cal slut
07-24-10, 19:23
I was traumatized by a Knight's M4.
I'll just leave it at that. :haha:
I was traumatized by a Knight's M4.
I'll just leave it at that. :haha:
I would like to hear about this experience.
Army Chief
07-24-10, 21:23
I'm just trying to figure out if it was "good" traumatized, or "bad" traumatized.
AC
FYI, the firing pin on the E3's is different as well.
The E3's will last 20k+
I mean bolt its parts, barrel etc.
You should not need to change anything before the 20k.
The latest SR15E3 Magpul Dynamic's limited run is pretty much the cutting edge of the guns.
Light, Fast and Accurate
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/KAC%20Weapons/MD20Current20Concept.jpg
FYI, the firing pin on the E3's is different as well.
The E3's will last 20k+
I mean bolt its parts, barrel etc.
You should not need to change anything before the 20k.
The latest SR15E3 Magpul Dynamic's limited run is pretty much the cutting edge of the guns.
Light, Fast and Accurate
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/KAC%20Weapons/MD20Current20Concept.jpg
nice work on the HG, and the barrel too. that thing is probably pretty light.
spamsammich
07-24-10, 23:15
FYI, the firing pin on the E3's is different as well.
The E3's will last 20k+
I mean bolt its parts, barrel etc.
You should not need to change anything before the 20k.
The latest SR15E3 Magpul Dynamic's limited run is pretty much the cutting edge of the guns.
Light, Fast and Accurate
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/KAC%20Weapons/MD20Current20Concept.jpg
I truly hope I never cross paths with that particular rifle. I have a feeling it will WRECK my wallet. My local shop just got a SR-15 E3 in for a really reasonable price and it is ALL I can do to not snap it up.
Yeah, I'm really diggin' that Magpul edition. I've had a thing for the E3 as it is, but that's a stick to be proud of.
The latest SR15E3 Magpul Dynamic's limited run is pretty much the cutting edge of the guns.
Light, Fast and Accurate
Wow, that rifle is speaking directly to my latest obsession with saving weight. Can you share how much the MD version weighs? Between the dimpled barrel and handguard modifications, it looks really light...
Will this version use a Fail Zero coated BCG?
BufordTJustice
07-25-10, 03:38
FYI, the firing pin on the E3's is different as well.
The E3's will last 20k+
I mean bolt its parts, barrel etc.
You should not need to change anything before the 20k.
The latest SR15E3 Magpul Dynamic's limited run is pretty much the cutting edge of the guns.
Light, Fast and Accurate
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/KAC%20Weapons/MD20Current20Concept.jpg
"I got my barrel ball-mill lightened at KAC. Wanna See it?"
It's gonna be my new bumper sticker. :) Swear to Gawd.
That just HAS to be the sexiest way to lighten a hammer forged barrel EVER. As if the SR15 weren't enough of a home wrecker as-is.
I like the look of the Magpul edition as well. My only concern is that it's likely to add quite the premium to an already expensive gun. Looks like it has the KAC brake, and I'd bet the dimpled barrel and lightened handguard are likely to increase the cost pretty dramatically.
Would be interested in knowing price and weight savings.
IIRC, price was in the $3.2K range, I think. Badass rifle for sure, but there's no way I could justify that kind of coin.
IIRC, price was in the $3.2K range, I think. Badass rifle for sure, but there's no way I could justify that kind of coin.
I agree. It's not that the sum of the parts aren't there in terms of cost (I have no idea if they are or they aren't. they are on the base gun), it's a question of, for me at least, diminishing returns. The lighter weight and the brake may offer performance gains but those same gains might be had by taking a base gun, turning down the end of the barrel, sticking a Battlecomp on it, and replacing the URX wtih a VTAC tube.
Anyone know if the Magpul edition will have the clamp-on rear sight or the upper with the integrated rear sight?
Hey Rob, there is a thread going here now titled something like "N4 Addicts". Molon posted groups from two different N4 barrels that were shot with his 77 gr. Sierra handloads. Groups were all more than 1 MOA and not too far off from the one I posted here with the TAP round.
As I stated before, I think people expect too much of the N4 barrel. It is accurate and consistent, especially for a chrome lined barrel, but it is not designed for sub moa shooting. It is designed to be tough as hell. I think John has even said as much in an interveiw posted somewhere on the net. Maybe Defense Reveiw?
ETA: from what I have seen around here, I think most BCM barrels can hang right in there with the N4 and my KACs are close enough for me. I don't shoot them past 50 yds very often anyway, unless I'm looking for Lobos on the farm.
I just happened to be compiling accuracy information for an article I'm writing about a much less expensive AR, and my best groups ranged from 0.80" to 1.44".... all at 50 yards! Well within the "spec", and shot for the most part with Wolf of one variety or another, but posting this as a reference point for the KAC groups mt posted.
but posting this as a reference point for the KAC groups mt posted.
?? I'm not sure that follow you here, what do you mean?
I had the 55gr Wolf do under 1" at 100m in a customers SR15 he sent back short stroking, I could not get it to short stroke even with Wolf...
The MD gun has a 'clocked' upper and rail, as in no gap and the rail is torqued to the upper.
5 PMag's
MD AOTC 1 and 2
MS 2 or 3 Sling
Triple Tap
Nylon Travel Case
MOE rails
MOE grip
CTR stock
Micro 600m BIS
Magpul Sling Plate
plus I believe it will have the new URX push button flip front sight
Only 100 of them will be made, so its got some collectors appeal
?? I'm not sure that follow you here, what do you mean?
Showing that the SR15 is capable of better groups than a run-of-the-mill M4-style barrel. Some people reading the thread might look at your groups and without a reference point not understand that they are in fact quite good for a chrome-lined barrel. I was simply offering the frame of reference to show that a standard M4 barrel may produce groups as much as twice as large.
In a similar vein, the way I understand the 'spec for the M4 is that the accuracy standard is 5" at 100 yards with SS109/M855 62 grain. Again, offered as a point of reference to illustrate what the SR15 is capable of.
Only 100 of them will be made, so its got some collectors appeal
That's disappointing, but understandable. It's a catch-22 in that the price is going to mean it has limited appeal but the limited appeal is going to drive up the price.
Showing that the SR15 is capable of better groups than a run-of-the-mill M4-style barrel. Some people reading the thread might look at your groups and without a reference point not understand that they are in fact quite good for a chrome-lined barrel. I was simply offering the frame of reference to show that a standard M4 barrel may produce groups as much as twice as large.
In a similar vein, the way I understand the 'spec for the M4 is that the accuracy standard is 5" at 100 yards with SS109/M855 62 grain. Again, offered as a point of reference to illustrate what the SR15 is capable of.
OK, now I'm with you, and I agree. A lighweight chromed barrel that will do 1.2 - 1.5" @ 100 yds. with me behind the sights is a shooter, considering what it is. I hope I haven't muddied the water with all of the references to the N4, but to me, that barrel is a very good reference point in terms of the best you can hope for with a CL barrel, and the KAC can hang right in there with it, based on my experience. Plus, it is convenient to have independent results from a trusted source like Molon. All I was trying to demonstrate was that the stated spec from KAC of 2-3 MOA seems like a case of under-promise and over-deliver. I could have left out the BH groups, but I wanted to be transparent about my observations. Not to mention that I was also a bit surprised that they did not shoot better than they did.
That's disappointing, but understandable. It's a catch-22 in that the price is going to mean it has limited appeal but the limited appeal is going to drive up the price.
Not surprisingly, many, if not all of those 100 have already been presold. They started taking orders right after SHOT 2010. The amazing thing is that people ponied up the cash before ever seeing the final product. All they saw was a concept gun at SHOT. That says a lot about KAC's appeal.
Funny thing is that I had already modded my SR to something very similar, just without the triple tap, dimpled barrel and sweet ass rail. Now that I've added a Battle Comp, its even more similar.
I've been reading this thread with real interest. I hope these rifles are the pinnacle of AR development as I just pulled the trigger on one on gunbroker in DE. As a left hander I typically install ambi safety and norgon mag release, which is stop gap at best for a lefty. I also figured that I frequently approach $2000.00 by the time I'm finished with my carbines before optics or lights. Pretty much standard equipment is the ambi controls, Magpul or Vltor stock, TD grip, Giesselle trigger, BCM mod 4 charging handle, Troy or DD rail, Troy flip ups, etc., etc. If I like it I'll be looking for a complete lower to put on one more of my carbines. The others will stay as they are.
I think you'll be very happy you did, seb.
Belmont31R
07-25-10, 09:52
I get 4-5" groups at 100 but thats with 55FMJ's, and shooting with a T1. Definitely not a "above average" shooter accuracy wise but I don't really care. Its got like 13k through mostly doing drills. Ive never put any magnification on it, and shot it with bags underneath.
Thanks for all the kind words guys. We really worked hard on the SR-15 E3 to be the best possible gun we could build. KAC never really chases price points but we do try to keep the value as high as possible. I think the SR-15 E3 is getting more and more momentum the longer these guns are out there and the more rounds the customers get on them. Also I think the "new" is wearing off some of the guns that came out at the same time. The fact is most shooters will never shoot their rifles enough to really see what sets them apart from other rifles. Anyone complaining about the price certainly is not out there buying ammo to feed the thing like it can eat. I know that you guys have a lot of good choices when it comes to spending your money on an AR and we work hard for that money. The fact is much of the technology and lessons learned from the rifles we make for the military goes into our commercial offerings. We don't "dummy' down our commercial guns. I would say that KAC tests our guns more than any other company out there. I would honestly say we shoot more rounds per year in testing than all the other companies combined.
The SR-15 E3 is just a step for KAC. We will always continue to improve our product. The SR-15 is not the last commercial offering from us . I think the EM/M-110 Carbine SR-25 is another example of a rifle that has really been pushed as far as the performance goes. We walk a fine line of telling the customer what makes our rifles do what they do and not giving too much away to the competition. For those that can't justify the cost of one of our rifles I am sorry . I do not see us chasing the lower end of the market. There are plenty of good choices out there and maybe you will end up with one of our sights,mounts , or rails. Even if you don't own any of our product chances are a product you own owes something to KAC. We are innovators and we are not going to slow down. Considering the AR type rifle has been in production for 50 plus years you wouldn't think there was anything else to do but we keep on trying to squeeze that last bit of performance out of that design and keep our eyes on new technology and processes to push firearms technology into the future.
Thanks, and stay tuned.....
I will see if the guy still has the pics...mine did .6" shooting Barnes 70GR TSX at 50M last weekend. Could have been a fluke or all the planets aligned for that zero confirmation but either way I am not upset with the accuracy of mine.
Mine will cross the 8K mark next week (I got it in April), so far no issues. This gun is set up exactly how I would have set it up anyways with the LMT stock and URX II. All I had to do was swap out the grip and I was all set, so I think it was a bargain at the price I paid.
Thanks for all the kind words guys. We really worked hard on the SR-15 E3 to be the best possible gun we could build. KAC never really chases price points but we do try to keep the value as high as possible. I think the SR-15 E3 is getting more and more momentum the longer these guns are out there and the more rounds the customers get on them. Also I think the "new" is wearing off some of the guns that came out at the same time. The fact is most shooters will never shoot their rifles enough to really see what sets them apart from other rifles. Anyone complaining about the price certainly is not out there buying ammo to feed the thing like it can eat. I know that you guys have a lot of good choices when it comes to spending your money on an AR and we work hard for that money. The fact is much of the technology and lessons learned from the rifles we make for the military goes into our commercial offerings. We don't "dummy' down our commercial guns. I would say that KAC tests our guns more than any other company out there. I would honestly say we shoot more rounds per year in testing than all the other companies combined.
The SR-15 E3 is just a step for KAC. We will always continue to improve our product. The SR-15 is not the last commercial offering from us . I think the EM/M-110 Carbine SR-25 is another example of a rifle that has really been pushed as far as the performance goes. We walk a fine line of telling the customer what makes our rifles do what they do and not giving too much away to the competition. For those that can't justify the cost of one of our rifles I am sorry . I do not see us chasing the lower end of the market. There are plenty of good choices out there and maybe you will end up with one of our sights,mounts , or rails. Even if you don't own any of our product chances are a product you own owes something to KAC. We are innovators and we are not going to slow down. Considering the AR type rifle has been in production for 50 plus years you wouldn't think there was anything else to do but we keep on trying to squeeze that last bit of performance out of that design and keep our eyes on new technology and processes to push firearms technology into the future.
Thanks, and stay tuned.....
"Stay tuned".... I like the sound of that!
III, thanks for all that you guys do. Since you and Kevin have tuned in, I've been wanting to ask a question. Recently I've heard people state that the E3 was Mr. Stoner's last effort or his last project. Is there any truth to this? What, if any, role did Mr. Stoner play in the design & development of the features that make the E3 unique in the AR world? I'm only asking because I'd like to know if he had direct involvement in the design changes or if this is just some romantic internet lore. And please don't get me wrong here, this question is asked with the utmost respect for Mr. Stoner & KAC.
Thanks for all the kind words guys. We really worked hard on the SR-15 E3 to be the best possible gun we could build. KAC never really chases price points but we do try to keep the value as high as possible. I think the SR-15 E3 is getting more and more momentum the longer these guns are out there and the more rounds the customers get on them. Also I think the "new" is wearing off some of the guns that came out at the same time. The fact is most shooters will never shoot their rifles enough to really see what sets them apart from other rifles. Anyone complaining about the price certainly is not out there buying ammo to feed the thing like it can eat. I know that you guys have a lot of good choices when it comes to spending your money on an AR and we work hard for that money. The fact is much of the technology and lessons learned from the rifles we make for the military goes into our commercial offerings. We don't "dummy' down our commercial guns. I would say that KAC tests our guns more than any other company out there. I would honestly say we shoot more rounds per year in testing than all the other companies combined.
The SR-15 E3 is just a step for KAC. We will always continue to improve our product. The SR-15 is not the last commercial offering from us . I think the EM/M-110 Carbine SR-25 is another example of a rifle that has really been pushed as far as the performance goes. We walk a fine line of telling the customer what makes our rifles do what they do and not giving too much away to the competition. For those that can't justify the cost of one of our rifles I am sorry . I do not see us chasing the lower end of the market. There are plenty of good choices out there and maybe you will end up with one of our sights,mounts , or rails. Even if you don't own any of our product chances are a product you own owes something to KAC. We are innovators and we are not going to slow down. Considering the AR type rifle has been in production for 50 plus years you wouldn't think there was anything else to do but we keep on trying to squeeze that last bit of performance out of that design and keep our eyes on new technology and processes to push firearms technology into the future.
Thanks, and stay tuned.....
Its wonderful you take the time to let us know what is going on and have such a nice presence on this forum. That goes a really long way in my book:)
I would hate to see KAC lower the quality and technology in their guns and end up like every other gun besides the MRP/MWS platform.....sometimes you just have to pony up for the best stuff in life and KAC so far from my experience is top shelf and merits every penny its price tag demands. I cannot see any of my money going anywhere but to KAC and LMT... given as of now, nobody seems to be able to even come close in terms of the SR guns and MRP/MWS's.
Mr. Stoner has passed by that time.
The E3 bolt was Mr. Knight and Doug Olsen, and the E3 was pretty much driven by III.
Mr. Stoner has passed by that time.
The E3 bolt was Mr. Knight and Doug Olsen, and the E3 was pretty much driven by III.
That is what I thought, but for some reason I keep running across this idea being perpetuated on the net that he had some type of direct involvement. Was the E3 bolt influenced by him at all, even as a theoretical improvement to the original design?
Army Chief
07-25-10, 12:16
I didn't get the impression that Stoner had anything to do with the SR-15 in terms of the actual development cycle, but rather in terms of the shared DNA that the new rifle shares with the SR-25 and other rifles that he did work on during his years with KAC.
In this, I think one can make a legimitate claim that the SR series carries forward the legacy of where Stoner was headed with the final evolution of his design, even though the work fell to others to complete. John Browning never completed the Browning High Power, either, but it is still a design that we rightly associate with him today.
I came a bit late to the party, and am almost pleased that I essentially ignored all of the hype until by pure happenstance I picked up an SR-15E3 about a month ago, and instantly came to the realization that this was not "just another rifle." Now I'm an owner -- and I doubt very seriously that this will be my last/only SR series rifle. I've no use for fanboyism, but I do appreciate a quality product, and in this case, the enthusiasm is well-earned.
AC
Gene Stoner's words ring out in everything we do , I can't think of a project where someone doesn't say" Stoner always said". That being said I would give much of the credit for the E3 bolt design to Doug Olsen as Kevin said. I would also say that we have made countless improvements/refinements to it over the years. I find it interesting that many people find the E3 and its non compatibility to be the rifles only detraction. I consider it the rifles biggest asset. The E3 bolt will out last and out perform any other AR bolt on the market made by any manufacturer . It has been tested in extreme use with a sound suppressor . We know exactly what this rifle is capable of , that is why we have never touted it as a match grade rifle. I have seen rifles that shoot under .5 MOA. The high end seems to be 1.5 or a little higher.
Gene Stoner's words ring out in everything we do , I can't think of a project where someone doesn't say" Stoner always said". That being said I would give much of the credit for the E3 bolt design to Doug Olsen as Kevin said. I would also say that we have made countless improvements/refinements to it over the years. I find it interesting that many people find the E3 and its non compatibility to be the rifles only detraction. I consider it the rifles biggest asset. The E3 bolt will out last and out perform any other AR bolt on the market made by any manufacturer . It has been tested in extreme use with a sound suppressor . We know exactly what this rifle is capable of , that is why we have never touted it as a match grade rifle. I have seen rifles that shoot under .5 MOA. The high end seems to be 1.5 or a little higher.
When you find out why people think the incredibly reliable and longer lasting E3 bolt that is proprietary is a detraction.......you will find the answer to why the one piece monolithic rail that is proprietary is a detraction as well.
Its absolutely ridiculous to think that these huge evolutions in ARs such as the E3 bolt and the MRP chassis are anything but game changing features:)
Army Chief
07-25-10, 13:22
I find it interesting that many people find the E3 and its non compatibility to be the rifles only detraction. I consider it the rifles biggest asset.
A point that probably bears worth repeating.
This notion that we can build a next-generation AR with legacy/backwards-compatible parts is just plain silly, considering that many of those parts, like the bolt, are actually limiting this kind of innovation. It's akin to telling a pistolsmith to build you a best-in-class contemporary 1911 using only WWII-contract USGI parts.
As we've examined elsewhere in the thread, the overwhelming majority of AR-based "advanced" rifles now on the market all use a variety of proprietary components. So long as spares can be had, this strikes me as a very hollow argument indeed; doubly so, in view of the fact that KAC is a well-established company with solid prospects for the future.
AC
Belmont31R
07-25-10, 13:46
The thing about proprietary parts (to me) is if they are available or not, and is the company some no name outfit?
- Proprietary parts, if you can buy replacements, are just like any other part. If you had 3 SR15's, and one regular DI gun the lone regular gun would the "special one". Ive actually never heard of an E3 bolt breaking...not saying its not happened but Ive personally never heard of it.
- KAC is in no danger of going TU, and some of these other outfits come and go. People buy whatever product they have, and a year or two later the company is out of business. You are stuck. I might also add KAC does stand behind their product, and they are going to do what they have to do to get you a working product that you paid for. At the same time I can see people's leeriness in buying a gun with odd ball parts KAC is not going anywhere, and you can buy spares just like you can with any other gun. If something breaks more than likely KAC will take care of it.
One thing I might also add is I do enjoying see their people on the boards taking care of people, answering questions, and getting feedback from users. Its not too often you have a company who interacts with their customers, and answers questions candidly even from the "no-name" guy on the boards. Most companies just put up ads, and if you called them you'd get some lame brain CS person who doesn't know anything about the product other than what they've been told, doesn't have concrete info, etc. For me that is a big selling point because it shows the company cares about the customer, guns, and chatting it up with people who are giving them their hard earned money. Some company owners are still stuck in the era where the only comms was a corded phone, a receptionist as the "fore front" of the company to take calls, and they don't feel like "real time" internet communications are important. I guess I just grew up in the computer era or something but I hate calling just to get a dumb CS person, maybe getting a voice mail where no one calls back, send an email that is never answered, etc. Discussion boards like this are far better for both asking and getting information, and I think it actually cuts down on the work companies have to do. A person can get way more info here which cuts down on calls asking random questions, cuts down on emails, etc. The companies that don't participate have to be getting lots of repeat call questions, emails, etc, and then wonder why they don't have the time to do anything but field customers. Its also great advertising because people like me can answer people's questions, it gets us talking about a particular product, and you can get the right answer right off the bat. Im sure the people here know far more about the SR15 than they do about other guns because we've gotten a lot of 1st hand info without having to deal with emails, phone calls, etc.
Anyways just thought Id throw that out there....Ill go hide in my hole, and fondle my guns...:cool:
vicious_cb
07-25-10, 15:27
How is the gas block attached to the barrel? It doesnt look like its pinned from the pics.
I think it is press fit, possibly with Rocksett. Wes at MSTN has stated that they are a bi*%h to get off and I seriously doubt that it's going anywhere.
Belmont31R
07-25-10, 16:14
How is the gas block attached to the barrel? It doesnt look like its pinned from the pics.
See this where its helpful to have reps from the company posting, and then we can pass along info.
The gas blocks are "press fit" onto the barrels. I know on mine there are some light marks just forward of the gas block before it tapers down from where the GB was fit on. Aside from that they are also set screwed in place. A press fit may not be 100% as secure as pinning but you'd have to do some crazy shit to the gun to get the GB to come loose. Another one of these things of Ive never heard of one having an issue.
vicious_cb
07-25-10, 17:18
See this where its helpful to have reps from the company posting, and then we can pass along info.
The gas blocks are "press fit" onto the barrels. I know on mine there are some light marks just forward of the gas block before it tapers down from where the GB was fit on. Aside from that they are also set screwed in place. A press fit may not be 100% as secure as pinning but you'd have to do some crazy shit to the gun to get the GB to come loose. Another one of these things of Ive never heard of one having an issue.
How would one go about replacing the gas tube then?
FYI, the firing pin on the E3's is different as well.
The E3's will last 20k+
I mean bolt its parts, barrel etc.
You should not need to change anything before the 20k.
The latest SR15E3 Magpul Dynamic's limited run is pretty much the cutting edge of the guns.
Light, Fast and Accurate
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/KAC%20Weapons/MD20Current20Concept.jpg
That handguard looks nice and light. Is this rail going to be available on future E3 rifles or just the limited edition MD?
How would one go about replacing the gas tube then?
It wouldn't be terribly easy, but not because of the press fit gas block but rather because of the rail system. Once the rail was clear you could un-pin the gas tube, slide it back into the upper slightly (you did remove the BCG first, right?) and it should be able to be slid back out the front. Remember that the distance from the front of the upper receiver to the gas block is ~11" giving plenty of room to curve the tube and get it out.
It is not that hard to get the gas block off, or the barrel nut off; IF you have the proper tools.
Frankly other than guns abused in auto where the tube warps or splits, its very unusual to actually NEED to replace a gas tube.
Generally I replace gas tubes when I replace the barrel...
However if you really want.
Heat the gas block with a 14 amp heat gun
This will make the red loctite on the set screws soft enought that you can turn them out of the their dimple.
While the gas block is hot, and the rail secure in a Picatinny rail vice block, you can bump the gas block off with a delrin block and a mallet.
Or you can heat up the bbl nut with the same heat gun and loose the barrel nut, pop the barrel out, and replace the gas tube that way.
However it really does not need to be done.
Keep in mind in an emergency - you can shoot a square lug bolt in the E3's, I won't not want to do it for long, but it will cycle.
Magic_Salad0892
07-26-10, 02:19
Hey, KevinB, and III.
A million complements to your guy's business. I can't say anything but good things about you guys. You're rifles leak quality, as do your suppressors (I love mine!).
I have a few questions though. For personal curiosity, and in the spirit of the thread.
A - At any point are you guys going to be selling a PDW type pistol grip, as a control accessory?
B - What's the deal on the rail system on the MD rifle? It looks awesome. :)
C - Does KAC have any plans on selling CQB upper receiver groups?
D - As mentioned before will you guys be Nickel Boron coating your carriers?
Thanks, in advance for any response. You guys are awesome.
I managed to convince one of my buddies that he "needed" a Noveske N4 Vis upper. My nefarious reason was so I would have one to compare w/ my SR15 upper. I thought it would be a good comparison since both a CHF and about the same price
I will have proper range report later. I only informally shot both rifles for groups w/ hanloads using 69Gr SMK and the oh so sexy 75Gr Amax ( the ones that the COL does not allow it to fit in the Mag ). Used my lower with Geissele Hi Speed Match trigger which is scary light. This is not a practical test ...since the A-Max need to be single loaded and the Geissele is scary light but rather only a comparison between the two barrels test .
Preliminary conclusion is both these barrels are capable of MOA. I will take both out again shortly to do a proper test. Had my 338 Lapua out that day as well so I was getting a bit flinchy
Needless to say, both rifles ran flawless using Federal XM-193 and handloads with ss109 projectiles. Nothing exciting to report
Pics were taken before the N4 was fired, hence all the lubricant all over my patio table
Here are some pics showing the differences in the bolt
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c347/TRG42/kac%20noveske/bcg-6.jpg
Although it is not readily apparent in the pic, the cam pin hole in the bolt is smaller, leaving significantly more meat around this weak point of the bolt
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c347/TRG42/kac%20noveske/bcg-21.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c347/TRG42/kac%20noveske/bcg-16.jpg
As you can see, the cam pin is smaller in diameter. The hole in the cam pin is also noticably smaller, leaving more material in this area
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c347/TRG42/kac%20noveske/bcg-22.jpg
Since cam pin hole is smaller, the firing pin needs to be smaller OD in this area
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c347/TRG42/kac%20noveske/bcg-29.jpg
Nothing special being shown here other than properly staked key
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c347/TRG42/kac%20noveske/bcg-12.jpg
The Noveske N4 has mid length , KAC has their intermediate length gas system. I couldn't do a exact comparision between the Noveske intermediate on my Novske SPR barrels but they seem slightly longer than the KAC
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c347/TRG42/kac%20noveske/SR15-10.jpg
82ndtrooper
07-26-10, 10:07
I actually ordered mine sight unseen off of Gunbroker. Never held one.
When I took it out of the case it was like a beautiful woman had just eyeballed me from across the room and wound up in my bed. :cool:
[/QUOTE]It should also be noted that I did not have a carbine buffer with me today to test out this new upper. All I had with me was an H buffer and a Tubbs CS flatwire spring. As a result, short stroking was the norm today and I often had to stop mid stream to rack the CH and chamber a round. I also had several bolt over bullet malfuntions. Today was really just a "get out and shoot" kind of day to get some initital rounds through the upper & zero sights. I'll be picking up a standard carbine buffer & spring this week and the malfs should go away.[/QUOTE]
I was interested in your comment on a carbine buffer. I have an SR-15 upper on the way. Should I be planning on using a carbine buffer setup instead of the H buffer that I currently have in my lower with the SR-15 upper?
I was interested in your comment on a carbine buffer. I have an SR-15 upper on the way. Should I be planning on using a carbine buffer setup instead of the H buffer that I currently have in my lower with the SR-15 upper?
Unless you're planning on running it supressed, you will probably need a carbine buffer in order for it to run reliably with lower powered .223 ammo. This may not be as much of an issue as it used to be due to KAC enlarging the gas port on newer E3's, but I have not had an opportunity to fully test this new upper. I had been running a standard midlength upper on my SR15 lower with a Tubbs flatwire spring and a Daniel Defense T2 buffer. Just out of curiousity, I tried it with my new E3 upper & that combination is definitely a no-go with the E3. I swapped out the T2 buffer for an H and still had shortstroking issues with the flatwire spring & H buffer. It should be noted that this was a brand new upper and it has not been broken in at all. I ran a variety of ammo through it on Saturday, Guat M193, Hornady TAP Practice, Mk 262, Centurion .223 & Black Hills .223. The more rounds I got through the gun, the less problems I had, but even when it fed well, it would not lock back on an empty mag with any predictability. This IS NOT a knock against the gun. I knew that I did not have the proper buffer, but I wanted to get the rifle to the range and put some rounds through it to roughly zero the irons & RDS. The feeding issues I experienced were fully anticipated and not a surprise at all based on prior experience with the platform.
I am going to experiment a little with a standard carbine spring, carbine buffer and H buffer to see what works best. KAC recommends the carbine buffer. The longer gas system of the E3 makes for a very soft shooting rifle and it doesn't require as heavy a buffer to run smoothly.
I really like the T2 buffer, so I may punch out the roll pin, pull the rubber bumper and dump some of the tungsten powder to make a Tungsten powder "carbine buffer" equivalent just to see how it runs. If none of my experimentation works, I'll just throw in the standard carbine buffer and standard carbine spring and I'll be good to go.
Thanks very much for your very informative posts and for your reply. I just ordered a carbine buffer for my lower so I will be ready.
Thanks very much for your very informative posts and for your reply. I just ordered a carbine buffer for my lower so I will be ready.
Congrats on your purchase, you're going to love the E3.
Hey, KevinB, and III.
A million complements to your guy's business. I can't say anything but good things about you guys. You're rifles leak quality, as do your suppressors (I love mine!).
I have a few questions though. For personal curiosity, and in the spirit of the thread.
A - At any point are you guys going to be selling a PDW type pistol grip, as a control accessory?
No, the majority of users have gotten away fromt vertical grips
B - What's the deal on the rail system on the MD rifle? It looks awesome. :)
The desire was to make a low profile free float 'rail' that users could add MOE rail section to if desire (the MOE in keeping with the Magpulness of the gun
C - Does KAC have any plans on selling CQB upper receiver groups?
It is being discussed, but no timelines as of yet.
D - As mentioned before will you guys be Nickel Boron coating your carriers?
Not at this time - however we are always looking for new coatings, and new methods of increasing performance
Thanks, in advance for any response. You guys are awesome.
We try :cool:
After researching a bit, selling off 3 weapons, and getting the blessing of the wife, I ordered my SR-15 last week direct from Kevin. I can hardly wait to get my carboned up hands on it. I was told 2 weeks shipping direct from Knights.....I'm counting the days.
After researching a bit, selling off 3 weapons
I think this is something that often gets missed with the SR15. I know guys here locally that would lament the $2k price tag (or who have busted my balls in the past for shooting a rifle with an aggregate cost of $2k before optics), yet every time they come out they're shooting a different sub-standard firearm.
now maybe I'm an idiot, but I'd much rather have one single gun (and the spare parts for it :p ) that would run and run reliably for well over the aggregate lifespan of the three POS guns I might need to sell to buy it. Yeah, I'd really want two of them but I know guys that easily have the funds to purchase a pair of matching redundant SR15s sitting in their safe in the form of various lesser guns rusting away.
This isn't unique to the SR15, I know, but your post really resonated with me and I commend you for seeing the light.
Spider 6888
07-27-10, 10:28
What kind of accuracy are up guy seeing out of you SR-15.
Spider
What kind of accuracy are up guy seeing out of you SR-15.
Spider
Please read the thread. I think you'll find the info you're looking for. ;)
I am going to experiment a little with a standard carbine spring, carbine buffer and H buffer to see what works best. KAC recommends the carbine buffer. The longer gas system of the E3 makes for a very soft shooting rifle and it doesn't require as heavy a buffer to run smoothly.
I really like the T2 buffer, so I may punch out the roll pin, pull the rubber bumper and dump some of the tungsten powder to make a Tungsten powder "carbine buffer" equivalent just to see how it runs. If none of my experimentation works, I'll just throw in the standard carbine buffer and standard carbine spring and I'll be good to go.
Half way home with my little experiment. I punched out the roll pin, pulled the bumper out and now I have a 3 oz. Tungsten media buffer. I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out. I'm going to try it with a standard carbine buffer also, just to see if there is any noticeable difference. Just waiting on a new carbine spring from BCM.
After researching a bit, selling off 3 weapons, and getting the blessing of the wife, I ordered my SR-15 last week direct from Kevin. I can hardly wait to get my carboned up hands on it. I was told 2 weeks shipping direct from Knights.....I'm counting the days.
You know, I think that makes for at least one rifle and a couple of uppers sold as a result of this discussion. Hey Kevin & Trey, do you guys need someone in commercial sales? I'm available! hint, hint :p
Half way home with my little experiment. I punched out the roll pin, pulled the bumper out and now I have a 3 oz. Tungsten media buffer. I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out. I'm going to try it with a standard carbine buffer also, just to see if there is any noticeable difference. Just waiting on a new carbine spring from BCM.
You know, I think that makes for at least one rifle and a couple of uppers sold as a result of this discussion. Hey Kevin & Trey, do you guys need someone in commercial sales? I'm available! hint, hint :p
You can add another rifle, I'm ordering one next payday!
Those of you on the fence about these great rifles may want to mosey over to SGCUSA.com to check out their current sale on the KAC SR-15.
Those of you on the fence about these great rifles may want to mosey over to SGCUSA.com to check out their current sale on the KAC SR-15.
WOW!! If I had the cash I would be all over one at that price.
I saw this picture by Rob_S weighing an unloaded preproduction model - how much does the current production version weigh?
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/KAC%20SR-15/DSC_2013e800.jpg
blackcpull
07-28-10, 20:38
Hi guys,
Thanks so much for all your help and posts. I really appreciate it. Does anyone know if the Knights Armament Magpul Rifle is still available and if it is getting good reviews? Thanks so much.
I'm not sure if all 100 of the limited edition Magpul Dynamics SR15's are sold. I'm not even sure who you could contact to get one, but I'd try Casey at Lawmens. They have not been released yet, so you may be able to get one still.
Army Chief
07-28-10, 22:28
I may well be wrong about this, but I think we're getting the cart ahead of the horse, as I don't believe these carbines have even been produced yet. Step one was to introduce the concept at SHOT and gauge interest. Step two was to make a go/no go production decision -- and I believe that has only happened within the past day or so. Step three was to begin accepting orders against deposits, which is where we are now, to the best of my knowledge. Step four, as defined by III, is to finalize the configuration and continue to make a few more subtle improvements until they are 100% satisfified with the package. Once that is complete, and production enters full swing, I would expect to see them hitting the streets and generating reviews and such. We just aren't there yet.
AC
Those of you on the fence about these great rifles may want to mosey over to SGCUSA.com to check out their current sale on the KAC SR-15.
Darn it. If I could only get my FAL sold I would be all over this.
I may well be wrong about this, but I think we're getting the cart ahead of the horse, as I don't believe these carbines have even been produced yet. Step one was to introduce the concept at SHOT and gauge interest. Step two was to make a go/no go production decision -- and I believe that has only happened within the past day or so. Step three was to begin accepting orders against deposits, which is where we are now, to the best of my knowledge. Step four, as defined by III, is to finalize the configuration and continue to make a few more subtle improvements until they are 100% satisfified with the package. Once that is complete, and production enters full swing, I would expect to see them hitting the streets and generating reviews and such. We just aren't there yet.
AC
Army Chief, people have had deposits in since shortly after SHOT. Casey @ Lawmen's has been handling them. Your "step three" began in January.
Magic_Salad0892
07-29-10, 01:46
[QUOTE=KevinB;717363]No, the majority of users have gotten away fromt vertical grips[QUOTE]
I was actually referring to the pistol grip.
Thanks, for clearing that up anyway though. There were some around here who wanted to know.
I appreciate the answers.
vicious_cb
07-29-10, 02:00
I saw this picture by Rob_S weighing an unloaded preproduction model - how much does the current production version weigh?
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/KAC%20SR-15/DSC_2013e800.jpg
Saw this one on TOS. Looks like it weights 6lbs 14oz as configured.
Im curious to know how much lighter the MD edition is.
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/6697/72077055.jpg
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/5261/31871907.jpg
Army Chief
07-29-10, 05:40
Army Chief, people have had deposits in since shortly after SHOT. Casey @ Lawmen's has been handling them. Your "step three" began in January.
An excellent point. There is a great deal of emphasis upon orders and deposits right now because KAC is apparently still rounding out the numbers to go to production with 100 pieces, but surely money was changing hands at SHOT as well.
The more relevant point that I was seeking to make earlier was just that some seem to be under the impression that these rifles are all complete, crated-up and sitting on a loading dock somewhere, when in fact, that is not yet the case.
AC
Quick question: Will any .22 conversion kit work in the KAC SR-15? I'm contemplating buying one but with the proprietary parts in the rifle (chamber/barrel) will it cause issues?
TIA
justin_247
07-29-10, 06:55
Quick question: Will any .22 conversion kit work in the KAC SR-15? I'm contemplating buying one but with the proprietary parts in the rifle (chamber/barrel) will it cause issues?
TIA
Let me guess: you can afford this rifle but you can't afford decent ammo?
Let me guess: you can afford this rifle but you can't afford decent ammo?
I think that's a little out of line.
His question is a legitimate one and a good one. I don't know the answer. Personally I'd just pick up an M&P15-22 rather than worry about trying to drop a Ceiner into the KAC, but I have to admit I'm curious to know if the Ceiner or other drop-in kit will work in the SR15E3 too.
Saw this one on TOS. Looks like it weights 6lbs 14oz as configured.
Im curious to know how much lighter the MD edition is.
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/6697/72077055.jpg
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/5261/31871907.jpg
Thats mine, its a little lighter than a stock one, I took out the heat shield in the URX, and I have a special run upper on it with integral rear sight which saves a little weight.
I'm not sure if all 100 of the limited edition Magpul Dynamics SR15's are sold. I'm not even sure who you could contact to get one, but I'd try Casey at Lawmens. They have not been released yet, so you may be able to get one still.
I may well be wrong about this, but I think we're getting the cart ahead of the horse, as I don't believe these carbines have even been produced yet. Step one was to introduce the concept at SHOT and gauge interest. Step two was to make a go/no go production decision -- and I believe that has only happened within the past day or so. Step three was to begin accepting orders against deposits, which is where we are now, to the best of my knowledge. Step four, as defined by III, is to finalize the configuration and continue to make a few more subtle improvements until they are 100% satisfified with the package. Once that is complete, and production enters full swing, I would expect to see them hitting the streets and generating reviews and such. We just aren't there yet.
AC
AC, you are 100% correct. I just wanted to let the OP know that he could still get in on the deal if he wanted one of the MD SR15's. I suspect that they are well into, if not finished with your "step 4", since the picture released by KevinB this week is the first we have seen since SHOT. Not too long ago, KAC gave a 60 day timeline for completion of the project, so I suspect that we are very, very close to seeing these hit the streets. As far as reviews, there won't be much to say except that they are an E3 that is so light that it might seem to defy gravity! They are still an E3, just custom ones.
It just occured to me that guys spend that kind of coin on custom 1911's all the time. Still too much for me, but sorta put it into perspective for me.
Let me guess: you can afford this rifle but you can't afford decent ammo?
Oh I can afford the ammo. I just want something to use indoors next winter when we have -20+ weather.
AC,
Did I read one of your posts correctly in that you ordered yourself an SR-15? If so, have you received it yet as I would like to hear your thoughts.
justin_247
07-29-10, 11:52
I think that's a little out of line.
His question is a legitimate one and a good one.
Yes, maybe it was. My apologies.
Army Chief
07-29-10, 12:48
AC,
Did I read one of your posts correctly in that you ordered yourself an SR-15? If so, have you received it yet as I would like to hear your thoughts.
I did, and coincidentally, just picked it up last night. While it is obviously a bit too early to share any range impressions, there can be no doubt that this is a very well-sorted-out carbine.
The ambi-controls were a major selling point for me a left-handed firer, and my impression is that they are well-designed and placed; that said, I do think it is going to be an interesting adjustment for me to learn how to actually use them, given some 30 years of muscle memory with standard AR configurations. I would like to train to proficiency with the modded lower, but it is going to take some deliberate effort.
The rail system is solid, well-executed, and gives you about 14,000 different sling point possibilities, so I'm still working out which is actually going to work best for me. I like the KAC rail panels, but retrofitted XTMs -- at least until I can get some of the short(er) KACs. The ubiquitous KAC VFG is mounted, but I'm not sure how much I will actually use it, so time will tell the tale there.
The A2 pistol grip is, I think, a sacrificial component that may well go to the belt sander for a PDW-esque re-profiling session, and removal of the finger rest -- or I may just replace it altogether. Clearly, it is not intended as a long-term solution on a gun like this.
The Crane SOPMOD stock seemed slightly long for me in a true squared-up carbine firing position, but I think that actually had more to do with the long KAC rail panels, and where I was grasping the front rail than with the length of the stock -- I never really noticed a problem with this when I was downrange, and that was with body armor.
The weight. Put simply, this is THE story with this carbine as far as I am concerned. The SR is a stripped-down flyer that handles very well and doesn't leave me wishing for more. It's a real whip, and given the right operator mechanics, should be extremely controllable.
The sight integration is first-rate, and I'm looking forward to mounting a T-1 to bring the rest of the package together. (Just don't have one free at the moment.) I'm not sure what I would ever seek to mount on the forward section of the rail that serves as the back of the front sight tower, but the way in which KAC incorporated this is still, well ... just plain cool.
I've been testing a Wilson TTU in another gun this summer, so the [corrected to read "KAC"] two-stage wasn't quite the surprise that it otherwise might have been, but clearly, these units work, and work well. The trigger is crisp and consistent, despite the fact that break-in is still a due-out.
Haven't finger-fumbled around with the bolt much yet, but we all know what to expect there. The E3 may bring some very real advances to the table, but implementation is pretty understated, and it's a largely unnoticeable feature during normal manipulation. I'm not sure if I expected it to feel different, or cycle differently, or what ... but it seems very much like any other BCG/bolt from a dry-fire/orientation perspective. No doubt the true advantages of the E3 will be revealed over time.
Nobody cares about rollmarkings -- not out loud, anyway -- but I'll admit that seeing "STONER RIFLE" on the receiver does give me some private pleasure. Not sure it helps the gun work any better, but I do appreciate the tie-in to the system's history, and nod to the designer. The boys at KAC do have some class; you have to hand them that.
A Triple Tap may also be in the offing, just to help transform a great gun into an incomparable gun, but on balance, I think the price of admission is money well spent.
Won't really know more until I've had a chance to go through zero and cycle some mags, but for Day Two impressions, I'm going to have to go with "well pleased."
AC
AC you just made my day. I received my shipping notification today and should have my SR around Mid-Week (next week). Today is gun porn day, I also received my Battlecomp. I would love a Triple Tap, but this will have to do for now.
AC,
You have a way with words which is why I was hoping for your review. I look forward to your range report.
Now, in the meantime, I expect that you will start photographing your acquisition, because, as we all know, any review is worthless without pics.
AC, that is great summary of what I think most people's first impressions are. Did you swap out the trigger for a Geissele? If not, you should have an original KAC 2-stage trigger. I tested an SSA in my E3 for a short while and went back to the KAC. It was maybe 1/2 - 3/4 lbs lighter than the SSA. Both great triggers, but I liked the KAC better.
Army Chief
07-29-10, 14:22
Did you swap out the trigger for a Geissele? If not, you should have an original KAC 2-stage trigger.
Negative, I did not. My impressions are based upon the stock KAC two-stage. Not entirely sure what was going on between my brain and my typing fingers on that one, but I definitely appreciate the correction.
I did have my hands on a Geissele-equipped carbine last night, which might have left this somewhere in the corners of my mind, but I can't say that I would prefer it to the KAC, as the latter seems to be very good kit.
AC
I f**king hate you guys. Finally caved in and got the last one from SGCUSA. We'll see how that goes.
I may yet implode my budget and pick up a TTB for it, like Army Chief has pointed out.
That is hilarious! The SGC deal was an awesome price, money well spent.
That is hilarious! The SGC deal was an awesome price, money well spent.
Great, now I need somewhere to stick my latest GSSA. :dirol::dance3::dirol:
My dealer called and told me to pick up my rifle tomorrow. I just got off the phone with Larue and another (my third) T-1 and tall mount will be here next Tuesday. I've got a battle comp waiting on it. I'll look forward to the triggger. I've got SSA's in three rifles currently with a 4th in the gun safe. If it's even close to the SSA I'll leave it as is. I'm hoping that the KAC feels a lot like my last build using a 16" DD middie lightweight and Troy Extreme rail. With the battle comp it's as easy to control during firing as carbines 2-2.5 lbs. heavier. Other than the T-1, battle comp, and a sling, it should stay as is, which would be a first in my 20 years with AR's.
I'll echo what Army Chief said about trying to learn to use the left handed mag release. I've got norgons in some rifles but I've never felt as positive hitting the little release on the left side. The safeties are easy to get used to and the bolt release works great for lefties as is. If I really get to using this rifle and getting comfortable with the controls my plan is to buy a complete lower and sell off one of the others so I would have 2 that work the same.
Army Chief
07-29-10, 18:08
A couple of follow-on points, now that I'm back home and have had a chance to pick up the gun again.
The KAC ambidextrous safety is a solid unit, made in much the same fashion as those we've since since nigh unto forever, and it works well; that said, I don't think it is the best option currently on the market. I say this because my recent experience with the B.A.D. ambidextrous safety has really jaded me against conventional ambi safeties which invariably leave one lever or the other in the path of one's trigger finger. It's not enough to be a problem, but it is a distraction. Now, it's true that I've been less-than-enthusiastic about some of the discussion thread activity that we've seen relative to this product elsewhere on the board, but I do have to concede that this is doubtless the best unit currently on the market. The SR would be a better gun with one than it is without one, and that is taking nothing away from the stock KAC ambi.
The other point of interest has to do with the KAC trigger guard. It is a sharp unit with an innovative profile and some very intelligent design features. Lest you're left to wonder whether I mean sharp in terms of appearance, or sharp in terms of tactile characteristics, the answer is probably "yes" to both. The unit does have an eye-pleasing appearance, but it is intended to be used in conjunction with shooting gloves of some sort. As I've stated elsewhere, since I'm usually shooting with NOMEX flight gloves on, this is a non-issue for me, and quite likely an advantage. If, however, you prefer to shoot bare-handed, working with and around this trigger guard over time may give you pause, as the flared edges will likely result in some cumulative discomfort. I doubt that they would contribute to an actual laceration, but neither would they offer any substantive benefit. With gloves, the profile is near-perfect, so for my purposes, this is of no concern.
AC
I f**king hate you guys. Finally caved in and got the last one from SGCUSA. We'll see how that goes.
I may yet implode my budget and pick up a TTB for it, like Army Chief has pointed out.
What was the price? I went to check it out but it was only displayed after adding to cart, and being out of stock that can no longer be done. Just curious what a screaming good deal is considered to be on the KAC.
What was the price? I went to check it out but it was only displayed after adding to cart, and being out of stock that can no longer be done. Just curious what a screaming good deal is considered to be on the KAC.
I think it was under $1800, IIRC.
A couple of follow-on points, now that I'm back home and have had a chance to pick up the gun again.
The KAC ambidextrous safety is a solid unit, made in much the same fashion as those we've since since nigh unto forever, and it works well; that said, I don't think it is the best option currently on the market. I say this because my recent experience with the B.A.D. ambidextrous safety has really jaded me against conventional ambi safeties which invariably leave one lever or the other in the path of one's trigger finger. It's not enough to be a problem, but it is a distraction. Now, it's true that I've been less-than-enthusiastic about some of the discussion thread activity that we've seen relative to this product elsewhere on the board, but I do have to concede that this is doubtless the best unit currently on the market. The SR would be a better gun with one than it is without one, and that is taking nothing away from the stock KAC ambi.
The other point of interest has to do with the KAC trigger guard. It is a sharp unit with an innovative profile and some very intelligent design features. Lest you're left to wonder whether I mean sharp in terms of appearance, or sharp in terms of tactile characteristics, the answer is probably "yes" to both. The unit does have an eye-pleasing appearance, but it is intended to be used in conjunction with shooting gloves of some sort. As I've stated elsewhere, since I'm usually shooting with NOMEX flight gloves on, this is a non-issue for me, and quite likely an advantage. If, however, you prefer to shoot bare-handed, working with and around this trigger guard over time may give you pause, as the flared edges will likely result in some cumulative discomfort. I doubt that they would contribute to an actual laceration, but neither would they offer any substantive benefit. With gloves, the profile is near-perfect, so for my purposes, this is of no concern.
AC
Great observations AC. I like the KAC Ambi because it has a more positive & smoother operation than most rifles I have handled. That being said, I would like to try one of the PDW style, shaved down levers, on the RH side. (I'm right handed) I have really gotten accustomed to putting the safety on with my trigger finger.
RE: the trigger guard, it can feel somewhat sharp but I have never had any discomfort from it. It was obviosly designed to enhance handling characteristics during manipulation of the gun & is not just there to look cool. I have not spent alot of time running drills or in a class with it though. IMHO, if you're doing either of these things, a good pair of gloves is a must, no matter what you're shooting.
Army Chief
07-29-10, 19:09
I f**king hate you guys.
I had a pilot ask me today for an assignment that I knew full well was a ticket to nowhere in terms of his career progression. He was under pressure from the wife, etc. to move in this direction, and he really wanted the position, but in explaining my decision, I effectively told him that "if I give what you're asking for, you'll doubtless feel like sending me a fruit basket and a nice card now, but you'll be cursing me in three or four years when you have been passed-over for promotion and mustered out of the service." I would have much preferred to grant his request, but in order to do right by him, I was forced to say no.
Relevance? Well, given the price of admission, you may be cursing those of us who influenced your thinking a bit today today, but once you actually take delivery of your rifle, I have no doubt that you will feel a lot more like sending out fruit baskets and nice cards. ;)
AC
What was the price? I went to check it out but it was only displayed after adding to cart, and being out of stock that can no longer be done. Just curious what a screaming good deal is considered to be on the KAC.
They were $1766 + shipping.
They were $1766 + shipping.
That's a great price. I just paid $1300 for the upper.
blackcpull
07-29-10, 23:08
AC,
Awesome posts, thank you. Definately looking forward to your review. Did you say that the SR came with a two stage trigger??? Was that optional? I currently am trying to get the Magpul Knights Armament SR collaboration. Thanks again for the awesome posts.
AC,
Awesome posts, thank you. Definately looking forward to your review. Did you say that the SR came with a two stage trigger??? Was that optional? I currently am trying to get the Magpul Knights Armament SR collaboration. Thanks again for the awesome posts.
If you have decided on getting the MD SR-15, then give Casey a call at Lawmens & Shooters Supply. I am envious of your upcoming purchase!:cool:
Casey Seng
772-569-8700 ext 235
cseng@lawmens.net
If you have decided on getting the MD SR-15, then give Casey a call at Lawmens & Shooters Supply. I am envious of your upcoming purchase!:cool:
Casey Seng
772-569-8700 ext 235
cseng@lawmens.net
Another shout out for Casey. Excellent customer service!
Magic_Salad0892
07-30-10, 02:37
It would be great if they made the MD URX rails into full production models.
I've wanted a URX with removable M1913 rails forever.
-hint- -hint-
Army Chief
07-30-10, 05:50
Did you say that the SR came with a two stage trigger??? Was that optional?
I went into vapor lock on the initial unedited post and referred to it as a Geissele, which it is not; that said, the SR-15E3 does include a KAC two-stage match trigger as standard fare. From what I can tell at this early stage, it is a very good one, with an advertised let-off in the neighborhood of 4.5 lbs. How the trigger lets off is somewhat more important to me then the weight at which it yields, but in this case, both attributes inspire real confidence.
Folks that spot the price tag and immediately become dismissive of the SR series are kind of missing the forest for the tress in my view, as the trigger is merely one example among many of the lengths to which KAC has gone to provide a truly complete package. The MD edition takes things just a bit further in certain areas, and probably reaches a different market than the base rifle, but I'm not sure how you could really go wrong with either.
AC
Army Chief
07-30-10, 06:06
Just for the sake of perfect clarity, this ...
The MD edition takes things just a bit further in certain areas, and probably reaches a different market than the base rifle, but I'm not sure how you could really go wrong with either.
... was actually intended to read like this ...
The MD edition takes things just a bit further in certain areas, and probably reaches a slightly different market than the base rifle, but I'm not sure how you could really go wrong with either.
... and was intended to communicate something good about how complete the base SR is, rather than to imply that someone considering the MD variant might be somehow out of step.
I like several of the MD package features, am ambivalent about a couple of the others, and don't really have anything bad to say about the rest. To me, it's kind of a Coke versus Cherry Coke situation, and as such, will boil down to individual preference.
AC
Just for the sake of perfect clarity, this ...
The MD edition takes things just a bit further in certain areas, and probably reaches a different market than the base rifle, but I'm not sure how you could really go wrong with either.
... was actually intended to read like this ...
The MD edition takes things just a bit further in certain areas, and probably reaches a slightly different market than the base rifle, but I'm not sure how you could really go wrong with either.
... and was intended to communicate something good about how complete the base SR is, rather than to imply that someone considering the MD variant might be somehow out of step.
I like several of the MD package features, am ambivalent about a couple of the others, and don't really have anything bad to say about the rest. To me, it's kind of a Coke versus Cherry Coke situation, and as such, will boil down to individual preference.
AC
I don't think you could go wrong with either one and the added expense of the MD edition isn't worth it to me... I'd love to have a dimpled barrel and the TT but it isn't worth $1200 more.
Spooky
I don't think you could go wrong with either one and the added expense of the MD edition isn't worth it to me... I'd love to have a dimpled barrel and the TT but it isn't worth $1200 more.
MSRP on the regular SR-15E3 is $2,200, and MSRP on the MD Edition is supposedly $3,200. So that's $1k more.
$400 for the TT
$200 for the dimpling (Knight's factory dimpling still looks the best, plus you get to keep your factory finish and not screw around with shipping your barrel to someone to have this done)
$200 for a chance to own 1 of 100 MD URX Lightweight rails (Kevin said Knight's will not be making any more of these)
$200 for all the little extras like: Laser engraved MD Special Edition upper and lower, 4 PMAGs, 2 AoTC DVD sets, ASAP Plate, MS2 Sling, Nylon Case, Micro BUIS, etc.
I anticipate when the masses find out about these, after they actually roll out and ship, knowing how popular Magpul Dynamics has become, that these rifles will sell for a premium above the $3,200. Especially considering there are only 100 being made.
MSRP on the regular SR-15E3 is $2,200, and MSRP on the MD Edition is supposedly $3,200. So that's $1k more.
$400 for the TT
$200 for the dimpling (Knight's factory dimpling still looks the best, plus you get to keep your factory finish and not screw around with shipping your barrel to someone to have this done)
$200 for a chance to own 1 of 100 MD URX Lightweight rails (Kevin said Knight's will not be making any more of these)
$200 for all the little extras like: Laser engraved MD Special Edition upper and lower, 4 PMAGs, 2 AoTC DVD sets, ASAP Plate, MS2 Sling, Nylon Case, Micro BUIS, etc.
I anticipate when the masses find out about these, after they actually roll out and ship, knowing how popular Magpul Dynamics has become, that these rifles will sell for a premium above the $3,200. Especially considering there are only 100 being made.
I was using the $1800 price from SGC to compare. I'd gladly go for an upgraded version with dimpled barrel and TT for $500 to $600. Not sure yet what I think about the modified URX. To me it looks weak but I highly doubt KAC would let it out the door if it wasn't bulletproof...
The $400 for the opportunity to own 1 of 100 doesn't appeal to me but it definitely would for someone more into collecting than shooting - because we know if you use it the resale price will drop dramatically - and I've faced the fact that if a gun is in my safe it IS going to get shot... Same goes for the laser engraving extras - collectors will like it but shooters will care less. I don't see the MagPul extras as something a diehard MagPul supporter will go for - they will likely have the DVD series already...
And I agree - if you haven't got your name on a solid list from a straight shooting dealer you'll likely pay more than $3200 for one of these.
Spooky
I'd say your assessment is dead on. If I was an opportunist profiteer (and more relevantly, not broke at the moment) I'd get as many under my grubby paws as possible, as those will probably top out just short of 4 large.
I think the SR base model is so good itself, IMHO...it makes this MD SR a bit sublimed. The SR15 lower is such a world beater by itself and offers so many unique and truly proprietary touches that they alone defeat the small influences of magpul in this gun. My holy grail special ed. rifle is still the magpul A and C series guns done with the noveske uppers.
PhillyAR15
07-30-10, 19:20
I f**king hate you guys. Finally caved in and got the last one from SGCUSA. We'll see how that goes.
I may yet implode my budget and pick up a TTB for it, like Army Chief has pointed out.
I am glad you got the last one. Just saved me $1800. I just spent over 3k on building colt 6920 (with Acog t31 and other stuff ) and I don't want to spend anymore this month. August is a different story.. That was a great price on SR15 I missed out on.
Army Chief
07-30-10, 20:41
My holy grail special ed. rifle is still the magpul A and C series guns done with the noveske uppers.
I'm a steadfast Noveske customer, but I've got to admit that when it came time to set up my version of the Holy Grail rifle, I topped the MPL A with a Rainier UltraMatch Elite upper that gives up nothing to the NRW, and in some ways, is actually the better choice.
In any event, I'm inclined to agree that the MD package may crank up the heat by another degree or two, but the base SR-15E3 is more than enough gun for the 99th-percentile shooter. Adding the MD features is like putting icing on the icing ... but then, everybody likes icing. ;)
AC
Magic_Salad0892
07-30-10, 22:07
Any word on why the MD URX rails aren't going to be production models?
Any word on why the MD URX rails aren't going to be production models?
My guess would be because these are supposed to be a special edition, only 100 ever made, type of gun.
I think the SR baststte model is so good itself, IMHO...it makes this MD SR a bit sublimed. The SR15 lower is such a world beater by itself and offers so many unique and truly proprietary touches that they alone defeat the small influences of Magpul.
I agree, the base gun is so good, that its hard to imagine it being improved upon. The MD edition is like modding a race car, just a few tweaks to squeeze out a little more performance. It is a collaboration between two cutting edge industry leaders, which in my book is just plain cool. The really neat thing is that while the Nighthawk gun was more of a showpiece, the MD edition is definitely made to run.
Army Chief
07-31-10, 07:17
The really neat thing is that while the Nighthawk gun was more of a showpiece, the MD edition is definitely made to run.
Not to strike a contrary tone, but I suspect that the guys at Nighthawk would take exception to this. Aside from the KAC-themed aesthetics, this pistol is not unlike any other 1911 they build, and showguns aren't really their forte.
Before this thread sacrifices credibility for enthusiasm, it should be observed that there are a great many things that can be improved on the SR-15E3. The MD gun is a move in that direction with a particular kind of customer in mind, but consider the base model for a moment: the A2 FH is a compromise, and one which will likely yield to many a Battle Comp, Triple Tap or supressor mount. Similarly, while the Crane SOPMOD stock will please most shooters, the A2 pistol grip will be quickly replaced by all but the most die-hard KAC purist. KAC rail covers, while a longtime favorite of mine, will nevertheless give way to TDs, XTMs and other types -- even on my own gun. The excellent KAC ambidextrous safety can be readily trumped by the B.A.D. version. Though it might seem hard to believe, sling/mount preferences may not be readily compatible with the myriad of onboard QD sockets. Even the benchmark KAC VFG gives up something to newer variants like the RVG, AFG or one of the more contemporary minimalist hand stop designs.
Don't get me wrong: everything about the SR is very, very good, and were I a product manager in Titusville, I would probably have made these very same choices. My point is that optimization is a highly individual enterprise, and it is impossible to provide one "perfect" carbine for every type of shooter. What matters most is not the external configuration, but the attention paid to core competencies and overall integration; in this, the SR series absolutely shines. KAC paid attention to the things that truly matter, and left the rest open for interpretation.
You may find yourself wanting to replace a few interface elements, just as you would on any rifle, but the basic platform is about as good as it gets for a next-gen AR. We've already discussed the barrel, bolt, receivers and other proprietary features (some of which we may never even know about), and there is no question that the gun is built upon a rock-solid foundation. While I still think it is a stretch to suggest that the Fourth Horseman of the Apocalypse is going to crest the ridgeline with a Stoner Rifle in his hands, it is probably safe to observe that the rifle is acquiring an exceptional reputation for the most obvious of all possible reasons: it is a really, really good product.
AC
AC,
You seem to mirror my thoughts on the weapon, albeit much more articulatly. The VFG is already in the junk drawer, A-2 grip replaced by a Tango down, A2 FH by a battle comp. I'll live with the safety and the jury is still out on the stock. I may swap it out later.
I was/am surprised by the trigger. It is compareable to my Giesselle SSA's for the most part. It's every bit as smooth, but maybe a hair heavier. I'm not too fond of the trigger guard either. Ii really like the ambi mag release and will make every effort to supplement 20+ years of muscle memory and training to utilize this accessory.
Army Chief
07-31-10, 08:57
The VFG is already in the junk drawer, A-2 grip replaced by a Tango down, A2 FH by a battle comp. I'll live with the safety and the jury is still out on the stock.
I would almost swear that we must have talked about this in advance, as my optimization plan includes virtually every one of those same elements. It's more than a little uncanny, actually.
AC
Not to strike a contrary tone, but I suspect that the guys at Nighthawk would take exception to this. Aside from the KAC-themed aesthetics, this pistol is not unlike any other 1911 they build, and showguns aren't really their forte.
My comment was not meant to detract from Nighthawk in any way. I was speaking more to the NH SR15. For the most part, the features that particular SR15 were cosmetic in nature.
Before this thread sacrifices credibility for enthusiasm, it should be observed that there are a great many things that can be improved on the SR-15E3. The MD gun is a move in that direction with a particular kind of customer in mind, but consider the base model for a moment: the A2 FH is a compromise, and one which will likely yield to many a Battle Comp, Triple Tap or supressor mount. Similarly, while the Crane SOPMOD stock will please most shooters, the A2 pistol grip will be quickly replaced by all but the most die-hard KAC purist. KAC rail covers, while a longtime favorite of mine, will nevertheless give way to TDs, XTMs and other types -- even on my own gun. The excellent KAC ambidextrous safety can be readily trumped by the B.A.D. version. Though it might seem hard to believe, sling/mount preferences may not be readily compatible with the myriad of onboard QD sockets. Even the benchmark KAC VFG gives up something to newer variants like the RVG, AFG or one of the more contemporary minimalist hand stop designs.
Don't get me wrong: everything about the SR is very, very good, and were I a product manager in Titusville, I would probably have made these very same choices. My point is that optimization is a highly individual enterprise, and it is impossible to provide one "perfect" carbine for every type of shooter. What matters most is not the external configuration, but the attention paid to core competencies and overall integration; in this, the SR series absolutely shines. KAC paid attention to the things that truly matter, and left the rest open for interpretation.
You may find yourself wanting to replace a few interface elements, just as you would on any rifle, but the basic platform is about as good as it gets for a next-gen AR. We've already discussed the barrel, bolt, receivers and other proprietary features (some of which we may never even know about), and there is no question that the gun is built upon a rock-solid foundation.
AC
I would agree completely and there is no fanboyism going on here. I am enthusiastic about the gun and the company only because it is a great gun backed up by fantastic service from folks like Kevin, Casey & Trey. I have had occasion to deal with each of them personally and their dedication to the customer and their reputation of their brand is without comparison. They have earned my respect and loyalty as a customer many times over.
You are dead on about the likelihood of swapping out parts like grips, rail covers, stocks, etc. I surely have on my personal gun. There are just too many options available for KAC to use anything but the most basic accessory components in some places like grip, FH and rail covers. They have always intended to provide an out of the box, optic ready rifle, while providing a good value at the same time. Start adding more expensive options to the base rifle and price goes up while some folks still will want to tailor it to their personal preferences. My personal rifle has been configured similarly to the MD rifle since before there was such a thing, only without the TT brake, barrel dimpling & special rail. But the base rifle, the "system" is the same. This "base rife" I referred to is really what I see as the system itself, the design features that make the SR unique like the bolt, intermediate length gas system, URX rail, excellent trigger & rear sight. The fact that they include a SOPMOD is a bonus. It is a great stock, but if you don't like it you can easily unload it and buy something less expensive, providing an even better value.
My comments regarding the MD edition were simply meant to express that IMHO, they managed to refine a great system even further. Yes, there are some aesthetics involved ala barrel dimpling, but most of the changes are performance oriented. It will have an even better recoil impulse thanks to the TT and will be even lighter & quicker handling than the original E3 due to the rail. I won't be buying one and never considered it because I don't see enough improvement over the base E3 for me to justify the expense. However, that doesn't change the fact that I appreciate the rifle for what it is, a true fighting gun with a well refined, cutting edge design & feature set.
Army Chief
07-31-10, 09:06
I was speaking more to the NH SR15. For the most part, the features that particular SR15 were cosmetic in nature.
Tracking -- I stand corrected. You're likely right on-point there.
AC
Army Chief
07-31-10, 09:12
I won't be buying one and never considered it because I don't see enough improvement over the base E3 for me to justify the expense. However, that doesn't change the fact that I appreciate the rifle for what it is ...
Absolutely. Some will surely disagree (most notably, those who ante up for the MD), but you and I are definitely seeing eye-to-eye on this issue.
AC
Absolutely. Some will surely disagree (most notably, those who ante up for the MD), but you and I are definitely seeing eye-to-eye on this issue.
AC
The Truth is I think the magpul edition is worth the asking price considering everything that comes with it and it's limited availability. I just can't afford one. :p
LMT MRP Rifle length w. 16" D.I.
LMT MRP CQB 10.5" D.I......Have not actually fielded this gun however its in the works;)
Colt 6520....the only gun that feels outta the box better than the SR15 that is not a sbr imho....but obviously until one mods the a2 for a m4 flattop it isn't exactly optics ready.
Check out the Colt 6720, it's a 6520 with an M4 upper.
I would love a KAC, but can't afford one right now.
Check out the Colt 6720, it's a 6520 with an M4 upper.
I would love a KAC, but can't afford one right now.
I just swapped a BCM m4 flattop for the colt a2 on one my 6520s and been running it for a few yrs. and its prob. the reason I will never abandon my 6520s. Once they become optics ready, they have the same appeal as something like the SR15....incredibly balanced:)
Wow, surprised to see the Black Hills do so "bad".
These groups are at 100? While obviously better than 2-3 MOA it's also obviously no tack-driver either. If I got those kinds of groups from a Noveske I think I'd be a little disappointed. I've gotten similar accuracy to what you're showing there with Wolf 75 grain out of my BCM standard mid-length (discounting the wild fliers you get with Wolf from time to time).
Yeah, my BCM Standard mid-length shoots the BH BB 68 and 75 grain bthp loads in to 3-5" ten shot groups. Tough luck I guess. In the same shooting session I tested those, MK262 averaged 1.3" for three ten shot groups.
This is from a rest with a 20X scope. 100 yards.
Army Chief
08-01-10, 06:41
I would agree that a great many shooters would be equally well-served by a lightweight Colt or BCM, though to be clear, there is a lot more going on with the SR-15E3 that isn't going to be attainable otherwise.
The E3 bolt and gas system would make that list, though perhaps not to the degree that a substitute gun would leave you wanting altogether.
Colt can't deliver a mid-gas configuration (BCM can), but otherwise, it isn't like the benefits of the revised bolt are going to be something you see or experience in an overt way every day.
The IWS lower, however, is devoid of a competitor in either Hartford or Hartland, and no SR stand-in is going to provide the same ambidextrous feature set. You can get close with an ambi safety and a Norgon, but that still omits the bolt release, and none of these controls will be quite as well-integrated as they are on the KAC.
As for the other features, you can always retrofit a match trigger, of course, and change out the trigger guard, etc., but I guess the point is that, if you're doing all of that, how much money are you really going to find yourself saving in the long run over the SR?
A lightweight stand-in will doubtless be a great idea for those who intend to employ a very basic configuration, but if one has aspirations for any optimization whatsoever, the price creep over time is probably going to narrow the gap. If you know you want a full-featured carbine at end state, then it probably makes better sense to just save your pennies and get it right the first time.
Speaking of pennies, that's about it for my two cents this morning.
AC
I am certainly of the mind that the SR15E3 can be a good value when looked at the correct way and adding up the cost of part for part, and those calculations usually ignore the benefits of the E3 components entirely so one could even argue that the KAC is a "steal".
However, for a great many users I think that one of the recent lightweight offerings from some of the better makers still have a place in the market. It's easy to say that the KAC is a "good deal" and it's quite another for some people to come up with $2k all at once. And if they aren't left-handed, or don't perform lateral transitions, and/or have no use for a rail system, then it may not be a good value for them.
My one gripe with the KAC ambi controls is that it's an ambi release only, not a lock. I wish that the ambi controls would allow one to lock the bolt to the rear with the right hand on the firing grip as well as release it.
I just wanted to post a quick note on here thanking everyone on this thread for all of the great information. Being able to read everything posted here really helped me to make an informed decision on my first AR purchase, or should I say SR purchase.
I had been saving for a while for something unique, and following along with the conversation here was a great help. I was really close to ordering from another manufacturer, but felt in the end that the knights was better suited to what I was looking for. All of the accessories right out of the box + all of the great features mentioned on this thread made me comfortable in my decision. Thanks to all.
If anyone is keeping a tally, you can count me as another sale as a result of this thread. I pick up from my local dealer early next week. As is the custom of the forum, pics will be posted as well as a range report.
Army Chief
08-01-10, 17:05
My one gripe with the KAC ambi controls is that it's an ambi release only, not a lock. I wish that the ambi controls would allow one to lock the bolt to the rear with the right hand on the firing grip as well as release it.
True, and I've noticed that the Magpul MPL A ambi functions in exactly the same manner. There must be something about the receiver geometry that makes an off-side bolt lock impractical or otherwise impossible.
AC
Army Chief
08-01-10, 20:00
AC,
You have a way with words which is why I was hoping for your review. I look forward to your range report.
Now, in the meantime, I expect that you will start photographing your acquisition, because, as we all know, any review is worthless without pics.
Ryan,
I generally avoid photographing items in my private collection, but since it is effectively a matter of public record that I just went this route, here is what I'm working with presently ...
http://www.weaponevolution.com/images/ac/acsr15e3.png
The XPS3 is a temp install, which will inevitably yield to a T-1, the KAC ambi is probably going to bumped in favor of a B.A.D. unit at some point, the A2 FS will definitely be replaced by a TT or a BattleComp 1.0 and the A2 grip will give way to a TangoDown, most likely; otherwise, this is very likely the end state configuration for this particular KAC.
AC
the KAC ambi is probably going to bumped in favor of a B.A.D. unit at some point
AC
It'd be nice if KAC offered the various attachments for their PDW ambi safety (http://www.valkyrietactical.com/product_info.php?products_id=1681&osCsid=a3bc4fe5bc27ab792c50a0ab7f03f193) for SR15E3 owners. I'd like to be able to use the scalloped selector switch on the left side.
http://www.valkyrietactical.com/images/KAC25776-3.jpg
http://www.valkyrietactical.com/images/KAC25776-1.jpg
Army Chief
08-01-10, 20:25
Agreed. I realize that KAC likely has some interest in protecting the uniqueness of the PDW concept, and perhaps the adaptation of PDW-style components to the SR series would simply be cost-ineffective, but I would also like to see a similarly-profiled grip, at least. The selector hold some promise, too, though for a left-handed firer, the scalloped lever is on the "wrong" side, and to my knowledge, not reversible. This is obviously where the B.A.D. offers more relevant configuration opportunities.
Of course, we didn't expect to see dimpled barrels or Triple Tap comps, either, and both of those features have managed to find their way into versions of the SR.
AC
What kind of charging handle comes on the SR-15? Is it a standard type handle, or is it enhanced like the Gunfighter charging handles?
Standard A2 CH.
I thought the latest SR15s were shipping with the scalloped ambi but i might be wrong.
I thought the latest SR15s were shipping with the scalloped ambi but i might be wrong.
That would be welcome news; in any case it looks like the SR15 safety allows you to swap in the scalloped selector, but purchasing the scalloped lever appears to require you to purchase the entire PDW selector set.
Perhaps KAC can offer the additional levers separately? It sounds like there would be some buyers just from this thread...
Magic_Salad0892
08-02-10, 04:50
I don't really understand the point of scalloping one selector and not the other, if you're shooting south paw, then the standard selector profile is going to blow, then when you switch back it'll feel normal again. :I
Army Chief
08-02-10, 05:56
That's effectively why I'll probably end up retrofitting the B.A.D. More than a few ambidextrous solutions (including the PDW switch) are really designed to allow a right-handed firer to manipulate the controls from the off-side -- not to optimize the weapon for a left-handed firer.
Most 1911 ambi safeties are made in much the same way (normal width lever on the left, thin lever on the right), so a southpaw really needs to shop around and look at the parts before blindly ordering something just because it is labeled "ambixdextrous."
AC
justin_247
08-02-10, 06:39
True, and I've noticed that the Magpul MPL A ambi functions in exactly the same manner. There must be something about the receiver geometry that makes an off-side bolt lock impractical or otherwise impossible.
AC
I've been thinking about this a lot over the past few months, and I think you're right. The KAC lower's ambi bolt release is very similar to the one POF developed for their Gen III lowers and the Magpul lowers. With two different companies, that leaves me to believe that an AR lower with controls mirrored on both sides is basically impossible without completely changing the function of the lower, if not the weapon itself. For example, Magpul has the mag release in the same spot on each side of the ACR lower, however they had to completely move the bolt release to down near the bottom of the magazine well in order for it to be mirrored, but my understanding is that these controls are simply for the bolt release and don't act as a catch. I have yet to get the chance to try the ACR...
From what I can see, the closest thing you can do to create a fully ambidextrous lower that allows full function of the bolt release paddle is to get a Norgon ambi mag release and a Magpul BAD. But even then it won't be close to mirrored. Once you move to a POF or KAC, you're going to get ambidextrous controls that are pretty closely mirrored (a Norgon ambi mag release on the POF would mirror the location of the primary, but the ambi mag release on the KAC is in a slightly different location relative to the primary) but you're not going to have full functionality with the bolt release unless you put a BAD on it.
If this is what is desired, there needs to be a complete redesign of the AR lower to somehow move the bolt farther down. I'm not sure this is possible short of redesigning the weapon entirely.
On another note, I would love to see an upper and lower from the PDW applied to the AR platform. By eliminating the buffer tube and bringing in a folding stock, it may well be able to revolutionize the platform in a way the other piston AR manufacturers have failed to do.
I'd like to see the bolt catch/release from the XCR on an AR lower.
I'd like to see the bolt catch/release from the XCR on an AR lower.
That would be nice
Standard A2 CH.
I thought the latest SR15s were shipping with the scalloped ambi but i might be wrong.
Interesting, can anyone confirm this?
AC, you just received yours. Is it a standard or scalloped ambi selector?
My one gripe with the KAC ambi controls is that it's an ambi release only, not a lock. I wish that the ambi controls would allow one to lock the bolt to the rear with the right hand on the firing grip as well as release it.
As Titliest has probably realized himself, the MagPul BAD seems like the quickest possible fix for this. Adding junk inside the trigger guard isn't really ideal, though the combined setup works quite well for me.
ETA: Late again.
A solid ACR style bolt catch/release seems possible, but that would shorten the trigger guard somewhat, and as I'm picturing it would be a dirt channel in a hard use situation. I need to read up on the geometry of the XCR's catch.
Army Chief
08-02-10, 18:04
Interesting, can anyone confirm this?
AC, you just received yours. Is it a standard or scalloped ambi selector?
Standard.
Gun is about a month old as best I can tell, but I can't say if it spent any time sitting in dealer/distributorship stock. I tend to doubt it, but since it wasn't ordered from KAC directly, that's a guess on my part.
AC
I just got back from the range today and thought I'd tack it on this thread inseat of starting another one. When I have a chance to ring it out with the T-1 I'll put up a thread of this versus the DD pencil barreled with Troy Extereme that I built up and is the closest rifle I had to the Knights.
To start off I'll list some of the obvious items that have been commented on already and then give some of my observations from actually putting rounds downrange. As expected the fit was good. The DE finish appears to be a bake on type spray as there was some overspray on the A-2 flashhider, which is replaced already, and port door. The rifle looks good, as would be expected for 2 G's. I will probably sell the stock as it is heavier than either the Vltor (8 ozs.) or the Magpul CTR(9 ozs.) at 11.4 ozs. Lock up is solid but not really any better than a CTR. The A-2 grip was replaced with a Tango down model.
Just an FYI, the castle nut is not staked at all. I'll rectify that when I install the T-1. The RE tube is painted down to the 2nd position, which is fine. I didn't shoot it with another bolt but did assemble it and test head space, which appeared to be within specs and would probably work as was said previously in another post.
I really like the sights. With my 46 year old eyes that fine front post was easy to see and I zeroed 2 inches low at 25, zeroed at 50 and then shot a few iron sighted 100 yard groups. All ammo was Remington 55 gr. FMJ as that's what I had in my vehicle. I'm a decent shot but quite frankly out of practice with AR irons. At 100 yards I had several groups around 2 inches, most were 2-3 inches. With the combination of ammo, heat, irons, and my eyes I was pretty satisfied. The trigger is very useable, light but not as smooth as my SSA's but the break was very crisp. I'm happy with the trigger.
The left handed mag release is the bomb for a left hander, which I am. It is much more positive than the Norgons I've used on my other rifles. The safety is just like all the rest of the ambi units, it works fine, no issues. The only control on standard AR's that is lefty friendly is the bolt release, which is standard. There are QD holes everywhere. I almost always use the rear of the stock and rear of the rail for my sling points. The QD's on the receiver are fine but if you are left handed the QD will get in the way of the FA if that matters to anyone. Obviously that isn't an issue for right handers.
I am pretty partial to the BCM charging handles but will probably use the one supplied but have extras so it is not an issue for me. The supplied buffer is a standard 3 oz. model. I see no reason to change it. The rifle shoots very soft with the ammo used but ejection was positive.
Overall I am impressed with this rifle. I don't know if I'll buy another but am planning on using this rifle and making it "my" primary. I still might buy a complete lower and put it on one of my favorite uppers just because. I will buy the field repair kit just because as well. As a lefty the lower is great. The safety position for me is superior to the right handed one and the geomotry is very useable. I believe that almost all would be happy to have one in their safe.
Seb, did you get one of the FDE SR15's?
Seb, did you get one of the FDE SR15's?
Are those getting hard to find yet? IIRC they only ran like 400 of them didn't they?
Yes, FDE. I don't know how many they made but I hate plain old black guns. The only AR I have that's black is a Noveske Recce.
I didn't mention it above but there is a ambi bolt release I just don't see a reason for it being left handed.
Yes, FDE. I don't know how many they made but I hate plain old black guns. The only AR I have that's black is a Noveske Recce.
I didn't mention it above but there is a ambi bolt release I just don't see a reason for it being left handed.
Congrats. I really like the look of the FDE ones.
Standard A2 CH.
I thought the latest SR15s were shipping with the scalloped ambi but i might be wrong.
Follow up question: Can a Gunfighter CH be put in the SR-15 or is the CH one of the proprietary parts?
Follow up question: Can a Gunfighter CH be put in the SR-15 or is the CH one of the proprietary parts?
I have a BCM gunfighter in mine, they're interchangeable.
I have a BCM gunfighter in mine, they're interchangeable.
That's what I thought, but I wasn't sure. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
GermanSynergy
08-03-10, 10:57
I've got a PRI Gas Buster / Diamondblack coated in mine...
I won't express myself as eloquently as AC. I'll just say......Wow. I have never handled the SR15 before and the weight/balance just blew me away (no pun).
I'll get behind it on Friday after work, I'm too busy until then.
I have a BCM gunfighter in mine, they're interchangeable.
Same here.
New models (SR15MD - Magpul Dynamics) have the Extended CH latch and Scallopsed Selector.
Right now just the 7.62mm, 6x35 and Select Fire 5.56mm guns are going with those.
Model changes will incorporate more innovations by next year.
New models (SR15MD - Magpul Dynamics) have the Extended CH latch and Scallopsed Selector.
Right now just the 7.62mm, 6x35 and Select Fire 5.56mm guns are going with those.
Model changes will incorporate more innovations by next year.
You guys are always finding ways to separate us from our cash! Can't wait to see what you guys are working on.
Belmont31R
08-04-10, 00:36
That's what I thought, but I wasn't sure. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Ive also been running a GF'er in mine, and just makes a great gun even better.
Magic_Salad0892
08-04-10, 04:12
Model changes will incorporate more innovations by next year.
Holy God, I'm going to pee on mehself.
Are you allowed to tell us anything?
Please say yes.
Army Chief
08-04-10, 06:34
Holy G*d, I'm going to pee on mehself.
Are you allowed to tell us anything?
Please say yes.
Magic, you might be better received if you would learn to rein it in a bit -- this is not a matter of life or death, and comments like these are ridiculously overwrought.
Obviously, we all have an interest in future upgrades (and retrofits) to the SR line, but I suspect KAC will reveal what they wish, to whom they wish, when they wish. It is entirely likely that these decisions are still being made, and given the company's unusually-thorough commitment to product testing, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they were still putting a number of components through their paces -- some of which we will likely see in the future, and many of which we will not.
A modified CH would be a natural improvement, as would a PDW-style grip. Whether or not a scalloped selector meets a need probably depends upon whether you are right or left handed, but I'm all for keeping an open mind until I actually see one. I would also like to see a shortened VFG, quite honestly, even though the TTPs surrounding their use seem to be changing. At the moment, this seems to be an all-or-nothing affair, and it would be nice to have some middle ground here.
Given the production costs associated with the Iconel Triple Tap, I'm also left to wonder if the BCE BattleComp (or something similar in terms of design, materials and price) shouldn't be spec'ed as standard kit, as well. This is a potentially-contentious matter, I suppose, but the point is that there are far better alternatives than the A2 FH, and not every user can justify the price of admission associated with the current KAC solution.
Personally, I would be quite happy to configure an "all-KAC" carbine, but I've found that certain concessions are inevitable, given the limitations of what is currently available from Titusville. We've seen great strides, of course, and will doubtless see many more to come, but like most things that are well done, there is obviously going to be some waiting involved. I can live with that.
AC
**DISCLAIMER: Everything that appears after this sentence is completely speculation on my part. Please do not use this as a reference for spreading rumor or as a reason to bug the snot out of the KAC guys wondering when these changes will happen, when in fact they may never happen at all.**
It will be interesting to see what refinements come about with the SR15. There have already been a few small refinements since the original release. One of the neat things about KAC is that because they spend so much time on R&D, their products sort of evolve. The SR25 fow is a good example.
I think that we will definitely see the QD cups eliminated from the lower receiver eventually. Hopefully the rear takedown pin detent spring will be relocated to the traditional location as well. This would be a nice change since it would be easier to utilize aftermarket grips. Its hard to imagine what other improvements the boys in Titusville might be working on. It could be anything from full production integrated rear sights to a new locking design for the urx front sight or a completely redesigned urx a la the SR15 MD. As Kevin alluded, I'm sure an LMT style extended CH and the scalloped selector will eventually find their way onto production guns too. What will really be interesting is to see if there is anything as revolutionary as the E3 system under development at KAC.
I would love to see the SR15 E3 series expanded to include a match upper with dimpled barrel under the HG like the SR25 and an 11.5" upper, all with E3 systems.
Are there going to be any full production models with the rifle length handguard?
Army Chief
08-04-10, 17:03
I think that we will definitely see the QD cups eliminated from the lower receiver eventually.
Interesting. Am I the only one that is actually using these?
AC
I use the sockets at the aft of the lower when I use a single point, which is rare. Usually I use a VCAS attached to the Imod in back and a Gear Sector sling mount in front. I don't use the sling mounts on the rail because they allow free rotation.
Interesting. Am I the only one that is actually using these?
AC
AC, first please let me qualify my statements above by saying that they are completely speculative in nature and based on feedback I have seen here and elsewhere by those who are more in the know than I am. The items I mentioned have been discussed before, but have NOT been confirmed by KAC staff as definite design changes.
Now, with that out of the way... I think most folks find that the QD sockets on the lower can become inconvenient by blocking the selector and making manipulation more difficult. On mine, the sewn-in QD swivels on my VCAS are very tight, so I don't use the sockets anyway. I installed a Noveske endplate & I prefer how the rifle hangs when using it and transtions are a little easier for me too.
Army Chief
08-04-10, 17:43
Great points.
Set up for left-handed operation, running the rearward point from the left-side lower receiver mount seems to work well for me, though when I experimented with mirroring that same arrangement on the right side (to create a de facto single point configuration), the right-side mount did interfere with the selector.
The free rotation points on the rail do seem to present more liabilities than benefits, but for my purposes, this is more of an inconvenience than an operational concern.
AC
vicious_cb
08-04-10, 20:06
New models (SR15MD - Magpul Dynamics) have the Extended CH latch and Scallopsed Selector.
Right now just the 7.62mm, 6x35 and Select Fire 5.56mm guns are going with those.
Model changes will incorporate more innovations by next year.
When are these updates coming out? Should I get one now or wait until these newer ones are out?
Magic_Salad0892
08-04-10, 23:21
Magic, you might be better received if you would learn to rein it in a bit -- this is not a matter of life or death, and comments like these are ridiculously overwrought.
It was an exaggeration. I meant no annoyance.
I've always viewed the A2 grip and FH as placeholders. Kind of like a stock seat and mufflers on a Harley. The parts are serviceable and do their jobs well enough but there are so many aftermarket options and the choices are so personal that it makes sence for makers to simply include the cheapest parts they can. Remember too that it's been very recent that muzzle brakes of any kind have gained even the small amount of acceptance they have now in "tactical" circles. While supposedly better FH options have been out for quite some time most shooters didn't bother because they added length and offered no real tangible improvement.
Hopefully the selector detent spring will be relocated to the traditional location as well. This would be a nice change since it would be easier to utilize aftermarket grips.
Did I miss something here? Although the A2 grip doesn't bother me that much, I might look into a MIAD later on. Is this going to be a problem?
Interesting. Am I the only one that is actually using these?
AC
I too found (minor concern) the QD mount interfering with the selector. I have not been to the range yet so that will wait until Friday for a final opinion.
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