View Full Version : Does anybody even still use carbine length rails anymore?
GeorgiaBoy
07-16-10, 20:55
It seems that recently the trend of stylizing AR's is to use a very long handgaurd on mostly midlength gas sytem uppers using either the Magpul AFG or no hand grip at all. On top of that, most of the time they are topped with Aimpoint T-1's.
This makes me kind of feel left out, since I use a 7in carbine length Troy rail with the ol' VFG and a Aimpoint C3... Is anybody still using this platform and is still usefull? I think I read the trend to longer handrails is to help have better control over the recoil of the rifle, along with the extended grip of the hand on the rail close to the muzzle.
Well it's still useful if it fits you well and meets your requirements. That's the trend, for sure, but it doesn't invalidate carbine length with a VFG. Proven configuration.
And the T1 is just smaller and lighter. People like me that have no money still use C3s. Nothing wrong with them. :p
I am running a 7" omega rail on my colt 6920 because I wanted a drop in free float rail that didn't require removing the fsb and bbl nut for installation. I use this as a general purpose carbine and have never regreted only having a 7" rail. I don't use any foward grip of any kind either.
This makes me kind of feel left out, since I use a 7in carbine length Troy rail with the ol' VFG and a Aimpoint C3... Is anybody still using this platform and is still usefull?
Perfectly good set up. The AFG fad will come and go as the sheep move on to the next Costa fad.
just because there is an en-vogue movement does not mean its right. give it time to work the bugs out. but past that, we know what has worked in the past, and 99.9% might be good enough. If you want 99.999%, that might take some mods or other actions.
Think of your next build, not your current.
crusader377
07-16-10, 22:10
To the OP. Your set up is just fine. To make you feel better, my carbine is even more dated. It consist of a 16" carbine with M4 handguards and the aimpoint Comp C3 with BUIS. I thought about getting rails and still may purchase them in the future but it does everything that I need it to do.
A pouch of tactical beard clippings to distract the enemy.
Perfectly good set up. The AFG fad will come and go as the sheep move on to the next Costa fad.
It's just like anything else, things evolve and change.
... People found that they shoot better when they put their hand (VFG, AFG, handstop, or nothing) farther out towards the muzzle instead of right next to their magwell (i.e. the need for a longer rail).
... People found that a midlength system has a slight advantage over the carbine system.
So when it's time to buy a new rifle, people are buying today's technologies, not yesterday's.
Does it make your rifle useless? Certainly not, as long as it still goes bang.
thopkins22
07-16-10, 23:27
Perfectly good set up. The AFG fad will come and go as the sheep move on to the next Costa fad.
I somewhat agree...at least about the AFG. But there's certainly a quantifiable increase in control with getting your weak hand out farther than a 7" rail allows. Rather carbine length rails give me as much length as a I need for my hand, but another 2" lets me put my light where I want it and still be able to run my hand out that far.
I actually think the AFG is ideal...for shooting standing up. But it limits you like a MF when kneeling or prone, unless you decide to bring your hand behind it.
I'm really really wanting to buy a couple of Gear Sector hand stops.
I prefer on saving weight by going carbine length. I think full length rails are nice if it fits you. I personally prefer a close to the mag well grip rather than a foreward grip. I seem to get tired less this way which helps prevent with my rifle moving around on me. I found, at least for my self that a fore ward grip is good for burst/full auto, as far as controlled semi-auto shots, the closer I keep my arms to my body the less I get tired and the more acurate I become.
Magpul accessories aside:
I don't think longer rails and running your support arm farther out is any more of a "fad" than running a thumbs forward grip with a handgun. There's sound principles grounded in basic physics supporting its continued use.
This makes me kind of feel left out, since I use a 7in carbine length Troy rail with the ol' VFG and a Aimpoint C3... Is anybody still using this platform and is still usefull? I think I read the trend to longer handrails is to help have better control over the recoil of the rifle, along with the extended grip of the hand on the rail close to the muzzle.
nothing wrong with it at all.
I'm using carbine rails too (kac ras) and dont feel the need for a longer one since all I mount on it is a flash light and the recoil of 556 is not a big issue for me.
absotutely
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs243.snc1/9016_1175011546952_1577982341_445443_5510825_n.jpghttp://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab6/bkb0000/SBR/101_3018.jpg?t=1279352063http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs263.snc1/9016_1175017307096_1577982341_445467_8076053_n.jpghttp://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab6/bkb0000/SBR/100_3201.jpg?t=1279352437http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs243.snc1/9016_1175001306696_1577982341_445422_5850126_n.jpg
Magpul accessories aside:
I don't think longer rails and running your support arm farther out is any more of a "fad" than running a thumbs forward grip with a handgun. There's sound principles grounded in basic physics supporting its continued use.
nah, aint no "fad." but it is definitely in fad-mode right now.
While chances are I will upgrade my two carbines two midlength at some point down the road after a lot more shooting and rebuilding comes up, I still run a carbine length rail on one (the other is a DDM4 with the full rail).
I like the AFG and its, to me, more comfortable grip angle. I was never really happy with the VFG's and the KAC handstop I tried didn't suit me either.
As for T-1's, I've paid $425 each for my two H-1's. I don't have NVG's in my bag of tricks so I don't pay for the option.
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k158/mrbieler/BCM14_5carbine.jpg
I dont know if its a fad or what have not. I think for the majority of users, its trying something new to see if it works for them. All of my rifles except 1 are set up with carbine length rails. Most of my guys run carbine lenght rails. For me, its a matter of having enough rail to put whatever mission specific items I need on it and nothing more. As for the mid length gas system, when one of my uppers shit the bed, I will probably try one. Not because its fad'ish, but if it provides me more service life for my rifle, then its worth it.
I've never seen much point in the 7.0 rail for me, and never have owned one. I can shoot just fine with the standard plastic handguards, and the 7.0 is too short for attaching lights, etc. IMHO. I prefer an FSB mount on carbine-length gas systems.
From the beginning with my first AR I've been looking for ways to get more length. First no-ban carbine was an LMT 14.5" with Larue 12.0 rail, next one was a Colt 6520 with a 9.0 and then 10.0 DD, then 6933 with the 9.0 that was on the 6520, etc. If I'm going to go through the trouble and expense of buying and installing a rail, I'm going to get as much rail estate as I can without getting nuts.
Down the road, we'll have Vietnam Retro AR15's, early 90's retro AR's, and then OIF era retro AR's that use 7" rail systems, M68CCO's or ACOGs, KAC VFG's, and SF Millenium weaponlights.
I see these as the Toyota Camry's of the AR world - the most simple, reliable, practical setup, but one that gucci-tards will always look down on as uncool.
one that gucci-tards will always look down on as uncool.
I thought of asking why it had to go down this road, but then I re-read the OP and realized the thread started out this way.
stylizing AR's
This makes me kind of feel left out
arizonaranchman
07-17-10, 11:12
No rails at all on either of my guns, just standard round plastic handguards and iron sights. The BCM may get a T1 eventually and a small add-on piece of rail for my SureFire Scout light, otherwise they're very stock in configuration. I like my guns LIGHT and sleek, not dangling with a bunch of odds n ends. For my needs they do just fine.
If you like your rifle and it suits your requirements then it's a perfect set-up for you.
If a 7 inch rail works for you and your style of shooting, you're fine.
shooters don't get longer rails for "style" or to be part of the "cool" crowd, they get them because it allows them to use their rifles the way they want to.
for myself right now it's a 7inch rail, simply because having no income and going to boot camp in 50 days will make a rail purchase rather stupid. I'm 6'3, and I prefer to run my support hand out much further than I can with a 7 inch rail. With a 7 inch rail and fixed FSP/FSB my ideal grip would be past the FSP. Also, using any sort of light or VFG makes the 7 inch rail seem quite small. For me, I think no smaller than 10 inches of rail. YMMY, but don't buy a longer rail if you do not need it.
variablebinary
07-17-10, 14:25
My main AR15 shooter is still a carbine length 6920.
I use my BCM/BM M4 w/a KAC rail, panels and VFG ans an AP M3. Shoots like a laser and I feel that changing it is unnecessary, as I use it for a duty gun and I'm a little bit wierd about changing a configuration that works so well for me. especially since it has been through quite a bit w/ me.
My other M4 is a Mutt/loaner, spare, and is a plain Jane w/ the standard handguards, carry handle and an old school weapons light. Good solid gun that can handle almost anything a put it through.
So, no, you're not out of sync.
rolltide13
07-17-10, 18:34
....my carbine is even more dated. It consist of a 16" carbine with M4 handguards...
Get with the times
Just kidding, I have troy carbine length rails on one of my M4's ironically enough my 10" DD LITE rail seems to weigh half of what it does.
Perfectly good set up. The AFG fad will come and go as the sheep move on to the next Costa fad.
That which you call a "fad" is an item that has been developed in response to advancements in shooting techniques. This product allows for better comfort while using a thumb break technique, which inturn minimizes fatigue. While it may not fit everyone, it certainly has been well received by consumers. It is currently being used by MIL and LEO as well as civilian shooters.
I used it during an EAG course earlier this year and was satisfied with it. I should disclose that my rifle has a 12" FSPM and it allowed me to take full advantage of this style of shooting. On a shorter rail, I would probably go with a VFG.
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r29/l_jimenez30/555107976_Dozer_reloading.jpg
Photo by Pat Rogers. Used with his permission.
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r29/l_jimenez30/IMG_2994001_copy.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r29/l_jimenez30/IMG_3029001_copy.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r29/l_jimenez30/IMG_3079001_copy.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r29/l_jimenez30/IMG_2994001_copy.jpg
Photos property of USMC03 of www.03designgroup.com. Used with permission.
the 7.0 is too short for attaching lights, etc. IMHO. I prefer an FSB mount on carbine-length gas systems.
I agree. Part of the reason why I haven't switched my carbines out for longer rails is because I can't do it with my SBR (for obvious reasons) and I setup my rifles as closely as possible in almost every facet I can (the main differences in my rifles are optics setups). Changing something as little as a light mount means changing it at least five times over for me. A little OCD? Probably, but I want all of the mechanics to mimic each other as much as possible.
So, while I want to purchase a DD Lite 12" FSP and run a carbine in a rhino configuration, I won't because it'll mess up the lighting configuration.
KingsideRook
07-17-10, 21:26
Down the road, we'll have Vietnam Retro AR15's, early 90's retro AR's, and then OIF era retro AR's that use 7" rail systems, M68CCO's or ACOGs, KAC VFG's, and SF Millenium weaponlights.
I see these as the Toyota Camry's of the AR world - the most simple, reliable, practical setup, but one that gucci-tards will always look down on as uncool.
I just last week told a friend that we'd see "GWOT" Retro-styled M4 carbines inside 5 years. I think a properly set up 6920/BCM 14.5" Carbine is a great gun, but my main reason for moving away from 7" rails is that midlength gas is practically a free upgrade if you're buying the upper anytime from this year onwards. If I buy from Bravo company, the decision to purchase a 14.5" Midlength at the same price as a 14.5" carbine is easy. Thus the incentive to purchase a new carbine gas system on anything other than an SBR is reduced greatly, and for me longer rails are an byproduct of that.
My long monkey arms (my wingspan is 6'2") like a forward position of an AFG on a longer rail, but I don't require it, it's just an additional advantage of using midlength gas uppers.
Times change, weapons evolve. I don't hear anyone clammoring for the good old days and the Garand and M1 Carbine.
If a 7 inch rail works for you and your style of shooting, you're fine.
shooters don't get longer rails for "style" or to be part of the "cool" crowd, they get them because it allows them to use their rifles the way they want to.
I agree. Dont buy it just because everyone has it. Id atleast try to find a way to work with it first. If all else fails then consider a longer rail and/or an AFG.
I too would prefer more forward grip based on my shooting style but I doubt Id ever switch to a longer rail. Im trying to work around what I have on hand to see if I can get it to work. I run my stock one more position out with my stubby VFG as far forward as I can get it without getting burned while maintaining the ability to activate my light(on the right side) with my middle finger.
GeorgiaBoy
07-17-10, 22:07
Thanks for all the opinions guys. It has helped me learn alot more about people's choices in their customization of their weapon system.
For me, at least, I think the carbine length rails work fine, at least for now. My next AR build will probably be more of a SPR than just a carbine, so I will most likely use longer rails.
Oh, and please keep in mind that my original statement of "I feel left out" was supposed to be taken more tounge-in-cheek and I was not completely serious. ;)
Oh, and here is a picture of my rifle:
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj307/Magicman710/AR15PIC.jpg
Times change, weapons evolve. I don't hear anyone clammoring for the good old days and the Garand and M1 Carbine.
Not so much on this board, but on other boards, you'll be told that the Garand is the One True Rifle and that ARs and 5.56 aren't even suitable for plinking rats at the dump...
I can still use a carbine length handguard set just fine, but long rails are just more comfortable/practical for me.
i
Before I am too old to write about, someday a new caliber and a new carbine will come along and we'll all dump the M4 and move forward.
Before I am too old to write about, someday a new caliber and a new carbine will come along and we'll all dump the M4 and move forward.
Haha, ya then all of us will be the crusty old men clamoring about how these new guns aren't like they used to be, how they are made out of this future material that I don't trust, and them laser bullets don't feel like a mans gun.
.... much like the current generation of M1/M14 lovers do.
I use carbine length, but most of mine are SBR's.
Military still uses them.
The main advantage I see in a longer length would be longer sight radius if you use a rail mounted front sight. I've never been comfortable with the support arm extended out on the hand guard.
As a brief bit of personal history over the course of my "firearms" career I have gone from the M16A1 to a CAR-15 to the M16A2 to the M4 with a 203 under it to an MP5, to a UMP-40 to an AUG-P, and now back to the M4 (with a bit of back and forth and a shotgun and MG or two thrown in between). Things change, improvements to equipment and techniques are made. What works with an MP5 (single point sling, for example) doesn't always work with the others (SPS too long on an M4 for me). I had no problem with the short forearm of the HK's, they were SMG's and were light, with low recoil calibers and were easily handled. The short forearms on the CAR and the M4, however, always bothered me because I always liked the longer grip selections that the A1 and the A2 offered, especially when shot standing and moving. Some things are universal , as I found the "universal shooting platform" I was taught early-on. The extended reach grip, as advocated with the use of the AFG took me a three day Magpul course to make me a convert once I got the fundementals down. Is the AFG needed for the technique? No, a stubby can serve as an index point but the technique I found to be sound. The AFG helps shooters adapt to the technique. Fad or tool? I vote for tool. Mine is coming off as I now have the technique down and I will pass it on for another shooter to use as I see value in the technique. The short hand-guard on the CAR and the subsequent M4 was a compromise and a parts bin solution. Did the hand-guard need to be that short for the platform? No, I don't think so. Were shooting techniques of the time for the platform as well developed as they are now? No. Poo-poo'ing the AFG and the longer more "fashionable" forearms used by shooters now fails to recognize the limitations of the original M4 design and the poor ergonomics it imposes. Anyway, enough of my rambling, I find the longer grip surface, especially of the aluminium free float hand-guards represent a weight savings and improvement, and a better more flexible grip surface, why not use them if available? Why limit yourself?
My EDC and rec shooting carbines are standard handguards, all carbine gas systems. I don't think I even own a midlength.
My LT Stealth is 10 or 11", but if it was 7" I wouldn't know the difference for the way it's set up.
To each his own.
No rails, glass, laser designators, foregrips, GPS, compass, fuzzy dice, or lights on my 6920.
I don't need a mid-length, I do not need a piston, I do not need rails...I actually prefer the A1 to any other AR, and someday I will have one, BUT if the mid-length rail works for you and is what you need, I say use it...who cares what anyone says or if it is everyone else's "fad", you should set your firearm to work for you , not based on what is popular at the time. :rolleyes:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/xcibes/Firearms/Colt%206920/DSC_0119.jpg
I agree. Part of the reason why I haven't switched my carbines out for longer rails is because I can't do it with my SBR (for obvious reasons)...
Uh...why not? How short is your SBR? I had a 13" rail on my 11.5" barrel (when I had the PWS CQB Comp), and am going down to an 11" rail now that I'll be running a suppressor or normal flash hider.
My first SBR, a Colt 6933 with 11.5" barrel and carbine-length gas tube, wears a 9.0 DD M4 rail over a shaved FSB. When I did the conversion I weighed all of the pieces from the factory and the pieces I replaced them with, and the railed forend was a net zero weight gain. Given that fact I saw no reason to keep the stock parts on that particular gun. It also wears an Ops suppressor that indexes back over the barrel and stops right at the end of the rail.
Of course, that gun largely sits in the safe while it's sister 6933 goes to the range with me every single time and wears all MOE furniture and the stock FSB with an MI light mount attached. :cool: I have found the MOE forend and MI FSB mount increase my tolerance for the carbine-length handguards exponentially. But if I had to mount the light to the handguards, like a 7.0 railed system, I would have tossed that combo in very short order.
These discussions always get interesting. After re-reading the attached article by Pat Rogers, I'm still quite comfortable with my 7" rail on a carbine length gas system. I am still satisfied with a vertical grip closer to the barrel nut than the front sight, in the configuration I learned with. I have, though, made the concession to use a stubby grip with my support thumb on the side/top of the rail. I like these quotes from the article, and I see it happen quite frequently;
We are all prisoners
of our frame of reference, and that is
as it should be—with some exceptions.......................... AND
The problems arise when proponents
of one vocation, discipline or game confuse
their wants and needs with another.
They become vociferous in their opposition
to what someone else uses, basing
their noise on nothing more than the fact
that it doesn’t suit their particular needs.
In short, they are afflicted with a form
of weapon myopia, and the less they can
see, the more they bang their drum.
I tried the AFG and quickly realized it's not for me. Sold it easily whenthey were still hard to get.
Thanks to Pat Rogers for reminding me it's OK to be me, even with my rifles.
Here is the article:
Search
For The
Perfect
Carbine
» By PATRICK A. ROGERS
A recurring question, hotly debated
in the errornet forums and
gun stores everywhere, is what
constitutes a “perfect” carbine.
EYE OF THE
BEHOLDER
Marine Corps Standard Infantry rifle is M16A4.
It is equipped with Trijicon RCO 4x telescope,
KAC rail and vertical foregrip, SureFire MU
white light and AN/PEQ-2A IR illuminator and
laser aiming sight. A4 is too long for much of
what the warrior needs to do. MOUT and CQB
are possible, but length makes it less than
optimal. RCO is an excellent telescope, but its
use indoors in low light makes it less useful
than an M4 or MK18 with red dot sight.
SWATMAG.COM S.W.A.T. » APRIL 2007 53
Opinions fluctuate widely according
to peer pressure. One
forum (populated by those with
little practical experience) believes that
only a bare bones circa 1963 gun is acceptable.
Another forum (populated by
a few with real experience) attempts to
hold in check a population that wants everything
on their carbines—especially if
the gear is new, and no matter that they
have neither an idea how nor the training
to use it.
Located in the center are those who
may actually use their carbines, be they
military, police, private citizens or competitive
shooters.
There is in fact no middle ground on
this, nor should there be! We are all prisoners
of our frame of reference, and that is
as it should be—with some exceptions.
Different jobs, vocations, competitive
disciplines and hobbies require different
hardware. Examples of this are that
an Infantryman requires a certain type
of weapon and sighting equipment. A
member of a Special Operations team
doing a Direct Action hit in search of a
High Value Target may need something
else entirely.
A cop on patrol might have a carbine
in his car, but a SWAT cop in the same
department might have his carbine configured
differently.
A collector may want a representation
of a period piece, as issued, and specific
to a particular time.
Competitors run the gamut from High
Power Service Rifle shooters to 3-Gun
shooters. In the case of the former, he
will have what looks something like an
M16A2, but with highly modified sights,
a free float tube under the handguards,
a 4.5-pound trigger and sufficient lead
weight added to bring the rifle up to 13-
14 pounds. The sling could be a leather
Turner M1907 type, and the barrel a
stainless steel behemoth.
The latter might have a much lighter
trigger, two optical sights, a muzzle
brake that does its job well (at the expense
of increased muzzle blast), free
float tube and other game-unique additions.
Probably the majority of ARs in the
civilian world—with the exception of
some competitive shooters—are not regularly
used. They may be brought to the
range occasionally, cleaned and admired
often (and maybe too much of each), but
with rare exceptions most are not rode
hard and put away wet.
In these cases what the carbine is
(make, model) and what is on their
carbine could be the result of multiple
inputs, possibly including cable and
broadcast news reports, magazine articles,
Internet communication, personal
preference, disposable income, and so on.
Everyone will have valid concerns
and desires when it comes to adding
equipment to or modifying their guns.
The problems arise when proponents
of one vocation, discipline or game confuse
their wants and needs with another.
They become vociferous in their opposition
to what someone else uses, basing
their noise on nothing more than the fact
that it doesn’t suit their particular needs.
In short, they are afflicted with a form
of weapon myopia, and the less they can
see, the more they bang their drum.
Even within sub groups there is dissension,
with some wanting simple
and others more capable guns. For example,
many patrol officers are issued
fairly stock ARs. The rationale can be
that police administrators may not want
anything unless the lowest common
denominator can safely operate it. (In
the late 1980s, the Master Instructor at
NYPD stated that he was against the issue
of semi-auto pistols to cops because
“they are too stupid to operate them.”)
In other cases, it may be cash driven. In
some cases the decision may be based on
knowledge of the system, common sense
and good people in charge.
A good case in point is the Arcadia,
California, PD. In 1987 they added 9mm
carbines to go with the shotguns in their
cars. Though some recognized the gross
limitations of the 9x19 in a long gun
package, others believed it was the best
compromise available at the time.
Sgt Dean Caputo took a hard look at
newly acquired empirical data and, after
lengthy research, in 1996 the Arcadia PD
chose and fielded the Colt Commando
with an 11.5-inch barrel (this was prior
to the North Hollywood incident). Every
unit in Arcadia PD—marked, unmarked
and even motorcycles—has the Colt
Commando.
Dean had to overcome a number of
issues regarding what and how the carbine
going to be used. The Commando
was not individually issued, rather it
went with the unit. All of the carbines
were zeroed by one cop, and then placed
in the vehicles. Dean also wanted the
carbines to be carried up front, and short
enough so that the driver could unlock
the mount, sling the gun and chamber a
round while inside the car. Unlike other
agencies, which bowed to political correctness
and the demands of radical
community activists to keep the long
guns in the trunk, he wanted the cop to
be able to exit the unit with the carbine
ready for action.
Keeping the gun up front meant that
optical sights were contraindicated.
None of the mounts could take optics, so
Dean stayed with iron sights—a compromise
based on solid input. An additional
issue was that, as the guns were not
individually issued, it would be tough
to hope that every cop would have the
same high level of expertise and devotion
to care.
As the gun stayed with the unit, the
Commandos had to be ambidextrous.
The cops in the car could both be right
handed, both left handed or there could
Short-barreled 416 with SureFire M900 light—easily the most capable of the
weapon-mounted white lights. Trijicon Mini ACOG is mounted on top. In this case,
Larue Mount replaced OEM mount—a wise choice. Single point sling is attached
to TangoDown PR-4 mount—another good choice. This mount is more expensive
than a receiver plate, but permits ambidextrous as well as central mounting
option. And you don’t have to take gun apart to fit it.
54 S.W.A.T. » APRIL 2007 SWATMAG.COM
be one of each. Slings and operational
controls needed to be accessible to all.
Caputo had to make some compromises
based on a multitude of internal
and external inputs, but his patrol rifle
program has been highly successful.
The Emergency Service Unit of NYPD
went to Ruger Mini 14s in the 1970s for
the sole reason that they “didn’t look as
militaristic” as M16s. The Minis were
Truck guns—that is, they were issued
out to the Emergency Service Squad, not
individuals.
It wasn’t until the murderous attack
on the World Trade Center that ESU purchased
a 5.56 carbine for all members—in
this case the Colt model R0979 M4 type
Carbine with an Aimpoint sight. The
times changed and so did requirements,
and the sight of cops armed with M4s
and dressed out in tac vests and helmets
wasn’t as offensive to the masses as the
results of the purveyors of a twisted philosophy
killing thousands of Americans
in an American city.
An oft-repeated refrain is that “they”
(alternate, “them”) took a neat 5.5 pound
carbine and turned it into a heavyweight
multipurpose whatever, loaded down
with everything known to man—specifically
“tactical doo-dads” (whatever a
doo-dad is). Some will moan about optics
and lust for guns that possess only
“good ole’ iron sights” (whatever “good
ole’ ” means).
Like most myths, it has some basis in
fact. Carrying a gun from your trunk to
a covered bench rest on a public range
requires little strength. Carrying that
same firestick for three or four days over
terrain where the contour lines blur is
something else again. Weight is an issue
for sure.
However, the end state of carrying
a carbine—penetrating bad guys with
projectiles—may mean that you do need
to offset weight for capability. Are you
absolutely sure that you’ll only have
to engage during daylight? Well then,
those lightweight “good ole” iron sights
may just do you right. But if you have to
use it at night, or in dim light, or indoors
at any time, or if your eyes are getting
weaker, or you have to put rounds into
multiple opponents at close range, then
you may need an optical sight, IR laser
aiming sight/IR illuminator or visible
laser aiming sight
If you want to win, that is. If you aspire
to be first loser, love mediocrity, or
don’t want to have an edge, go light—
real light. It can make it a lot easier for
others to police up your lifeless body
and inefficient equipment after all is said
and done.
Me, I’ll go weapon capable.
Is the primary use of your carbine
defense of your domicile/ family? If so,
have you ever considered when the burglaries
that turn into robberies, assaults,
sexual assaults or homicides most often
occur?
You guessed it—nighttime. That’s
probably why the law considers nighttime
burglaries to be more heinous
crimes, and why the law in many jurisdictions
permits greater latitude in the
use of Deadly Physical Force in such
cases.
The overwhelming majority of gun
owners have received no training. And
of those who have, fewer still have
trained at night. Without a white light,
you cannot adequately perform that
oh-so-important first step in the Target
Engagement Process—acquisition. And
if you do, the second and third parts—
identification and engagement—will be
likewise extremely difficult to perform.
It is your choice, and what you choose
may make no difference at all—or it may
mean the forfeiture of your life or those
of your loved ones..
Consider some “perfect” carbines…
When I had some property in the high
desert, I would go for a daily five miler.
Because cell service was minimal to nonexistent,
the local sheriff’s office was undermanned
and covered an area larger
than many states, and the desert is not
a particularly hospitable place anyway, I
carried a gun when doing cardio.
Understand that this wasn’t necessarily
for protection against bipeds—though
that was a distant possibility—but rather
against critters. Mountain lions, coyotes
and other predators were there way before
man, and I understand completely
PERFECT CARBINE
Caveat Emptor rings as true
today as it did when Latin was
a viable language. Local SWAT
Team purchased uppers as
well as two complete guns
from manufacturer known for
competition guns, not fighting
guns. Though guns were spec’d
for 5.56 chambers (and barrels
were so marked), chambers
were in fact .223. In addition
to mismarked chambers,
extractor spring was the
older type and the insert was
blue, rather than the correct
enhanced carbine extractor
spring with black insert. Here,
Sheriff Ken Campbell uses Ned
Christensen’s Chamber Reamer
to bring guns up to spec.
SWATMAG.COM S.W.A.T. » APRIL 2007 55
that the food chain exists. I don’t want to
be on the lower end of it.
To that end I had an older Colt Carbine—
slab sided, standard barrel (what some
are calling a “skinny” or “pencil” barrel,
their minds having been altered by advertising
hype into believing that heavy barrels
are standard) and a two-point sling.
The only alterations were an XS golf ball
front sight and an A2 aperture rear. I have
no use for the small aperture for anything
but Highpower competition. Any shots I
needed to take were up close (under 50m)
and rapid target acquisition was more
important than theoretical polka dot accuracy.
I don’t do outdoor cardio at night,
so a weapon mounted white light was a
non-issue, and I didn’t need an optical
sight for low light engagement. Weight
was the issue here—a 5.5-pound rifle can
get very heavy after a few miles.
For that specific purpose—daytime
only, short-range engagement—that particular
carbine was optimal for me, and
for that use.
This is not a carbine that I would list
as first choice for combat, be it Infantry
engagement or Direct Action. When the
M16 family first saw combat, night vision
was relatively new technology, and
nighttime firefights were noisy affairs
where hits were more the result of luck
than skill. That has changed, and will
continue to change, as technology meets
the emerging threats.
Shift forward a little bit here. Within
the confines of my house I keep a carbine
handy. Where I reside, crime is minimal,
but not unknown, and as you can’t make
an appointment to have an emergency, I’ll
opt for being prepared. Common crime
may not be the only issue here, though.
Terrorism is no longer theoretical, and
regional events such as Katrina and Rita
are cyclic—we will see devastation from
their likes again. The attack on the U.S.
by Islamo Fascists and Katrina were different
on many levels, but both were eradefining
events.
Future events may be more or less destructive,
depending on who is hurling
the arrows. And whether the event is regional
or national, if you are in the middle
of it, the world as you know it will change
in a very short period of time—and your
world may never be the same again.
continued on page 86
PERFECT CARBINE
86 S.W.A.T. » APRIL 2007 SWATMAG.COM
My in-house carbine has an Aimpoint
M3 mounted as well as a SureFire
M900 light (both in Larue mounts). The
Aimpoint has an obscenely capable battery
life—I never shut it off. It remains
on medium power, and therefore good
to go. The SureFire M900 is the most capable
of the weapon-mounted lights out
there, and while heavy and expensive,
the tradeoff is well worth it.
If I need to defend my life or that of
a third person under extreme circumstances,
I want something that is sufficient
to the task—and that specific gun
is up to the task.
Before my eyes deteriorated (aging
sucks, but beats the alternative) I
shot Highpower Service Rifle. I went
Distinguished with an M14, but the supremacy
of the M16 brought me around
to that platform in the late 1990s. It had
1/4 MOA sights, a tiny rear aperture,
lead in the buttstock and lead sleeves
around the handguard. The barrel was
a very heavy, match grade 1:8 twist that
shot like the proverbial house on fire. It
had a trigger you would die for in service
rifle competition—but it might be a
trigger that you would die because of in
a gunfight. If you are shooting Service
Rifle, this is a solid performing gun. For
3-Gun competition, it is useless, and for
gunfighting it is a detriment.
Individuals seeking to buy a carbine
(or most any other gun) will seek advice
from others. Some will go to local gun
stores, where the advice may be excellent
or may be based on nothing more
than what that dealer stocks and has
available. Others will go on the errornet,
where a great many people will—based
on their frame of reference of owning
one article—sing its praises or roll it under
the bus. Caveat Emptor rings loud
here, and the buyer must be cautious.
One—or even 100—may not be a good
statistical sample. Performance over
the long haul by a large number of like
weapons will give you a better idea as to
overall usefulness.
That data is not easily forthcoming.
Periodicals do not have the budget to do
the sophisticated testing necessary, and
the large volume of public sales that requires
such testing does not exist (consider
baby seats, refrigerators and the
like).
Every maker is capable of turning
out a poor article. The Quality Control/
Quality Assurance procedures set in
place will determine the volume of
poor guns. Understand that those selling
to the government must perform
to a standard, and that inspectors can
(and do) enforce those standards. Also
understand that while Low Bidder was
a common way for agencies to choose
an item, Best Value is now a standard
for those smart enough to understand
the implications. And best value means
exactly that—a higher initial price that
is offset by higher standards for quality.
Lower cost is often a clue that short cuts
are being implemented. These may be
more efficient manufacturing or something
more insidious, and the only way
you may ever find out is when your
bolt cracks, your gas carrier keys aren’t
staked, the 5.56 chamber you spec’d is
actually a .223 “match” chamber or the
gun flat doesn’t run. And the military/
LE sales guy is on vacation and can’t be
bothered to take care of the problems
that his crappy little company foisted
upon your team.
Every maker is also capable of turning
out good guns, but some seem to take
shortcuts and hedge on the assumption
that most gun buyers shoot very little—
if at all.
I once had the opportunity to watch
two European gun writers show up for
a carbine class where they were to use a
particular maker’s guns.
The guns were there all right, but neither
one worked at all. No amount of
tweaking could get them functioning.
What made it even worse is that when
the school called the factory to get two
new guns, the response was that there
were no more guns available.
Here the factory knew what these
guns were for, but apparently completely
misunderstood (or were unconcerned)
about what the ramifications of poor QC
and worse customer service would be.
I see examples of both good and less
good guns at every class. Over the years
it has led me to understand that there
are some guns that are more—and less—
likely to work as advertised. My purchasing
decisions and recommendations
are based on that frame of reference going
back three decades.
The search for the “perfect” carbine
may be no more attainable than the
search for the Holy Grail, and Monty
Python’s version may be as viable as
Dan Brown’s.
There is no “perfect” carbine. There is
no “ultimate” carbine. The carbine—like
any other firearm—is only a tool, and
you have to decide what it is that makes
a particular tool best for your particular
mission requirements.
Make your decisions based on reality,
and not on what the screen “hero” uses
to slay hordes of zombies. If you see
something that you don’t like on another’s
gun, keep your pie hole in check and
avoid the keypad until you have a clear
understanding as to what it is and why
it is needed. Better to keep your mouth
shut and let people think you are a fool
than open it and confirm everyone’s suspicions.
If you carry/use a firearm for real, cultivate
the proper mindset and seek out
the best training that you can. Make sure
that sustainment training is part of your
life. That will be the only way to maximize
your equipment and ensure that
you win the fight.
It is—and always has been—the singer,
not the song. §
[Pat Rogers is a retired Chief Warrant
Officer of Marines and a retired NYPD
Sergeant. He is the owner of E.A.G. Inc.,
which provides services to various governmental
organizations. He can be reached at
eag@10-8consulting.com]
I resisted rails until just recently when I put a 7" one on a new carbine length gas build. I'm glad I did it because it does make for easier and more versatile accessory mounting (light, handstop, sling point in my case) but I don't think I'd ever build another 7" railed gun - it's awfully cramped.
Ironically my SBR has more railspace, but the 16" carbine has room enough for the things I need: a VFG and light.
Using much smaller lights now, than when this was taken.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h264/DWood13/DSC_0369.jpg
Yeah man! I have the same Troy DI rail. It works great for me. Troy if you're listening change he sling attachments so they have the rotational limiter. They are priced right and attach with a screw driver. There coustomer service is has been awesome each toilet I've called.
You've got a solid set up.
Grease Monkey
07-18-10, 21:15
I just set up my N4 light w/ a dd omega7.0,magpul RVG and KAC rail covers. Love it!
My first and only AR is a 14.5" with a carbine gas system. I picked it up early last year and mounted a LaRue 7" rail on it. I have run it quite alot but not nearly as hard as alot of people do their guns. I also have a Surefire 6P mounted in a LaRue offset light mount that is mounted on the 3 o'clock rail. I don't bother running a VFG and really like how the gun handles.
That being said I believe that if I would get another upper that it would be a mid length with either a 14.5" or 16" barrel with a longer rail. Of course it would be setup more for longer range work with scope and bipod.
Yeah man! I have the same Troy DI rail. It works great for me. Troy if you're listening change he sling attachments so they have the rotational limiter. They are priced right and attach with a screw driver. There coustomer service is has been awesome each toilet I've called.
You've got a solid set up.
:blink:
I do agree the Troy DI rail works great and at a great price point too. Agree on the swivel socket comment. Used to have that myself until I decided to experiment with getting my hand further out front.
My observation is that it will be really hard to fill even a short carbine length rail with with whatever you decide to mount on your rifle. For most everyone it will have more rail than you can use. But it can be hard to position your accessories in an optimal way with a carbine-length rail. Couple that with the advantage of better muzzle control via optimal hand positioning further out that a carbine rail cannot provide (with longer barrels) and the advantage of a longer rail can be seen clearly.
OTOH, if you can mount whatever you need properly for you on a short rail, and you can place your support hand properly for you on that same rail, it is still a much viable set up to have.
JMHO.
Nathan_Bell
07-19-10, 08:37
For me the 7" carbine set up it entirely too short of a platform to work off of. I have been running a 12" LT or DD rail for 4-5 years. I run them because they allow me to shoot better.
Go pick up a brush gun or a shotgun that fits you and you can run well enough that it is into the see/shoot level of comfort. Measure the distance between your master hand and your support hand and then measure from your nose to your support hand. Unless you are very short of arm or narrow of chest, those measurements will show a distance that is impossible to get on a 7" carbine.
That is why I started my search for the longer forearms. If my body finds a "grip", for want of a better term, on gun that gives me a lot of possible ones as the long forearms of a rifle does. Why would I not try and replicate that "grip" on an AR?
Three LMT carbines. 1 16inch DD 7inch Omega
1 16inch factory handgaurd
1 10.5inch 7 inch Larue
Body type makes a big difference. If you are a smaller guy it is not as big an issue. If you are built like a wookie I can see a problem.
More 'rail' (I used the parenthises as more and more rails are not fully railed but FF tubes with rail segments) gives more hand position, and the further out front you can put your hand the more control you have on the gun, the more room for accessories, and the longer area you can rest the weapon without it being on the barrel.
Back when we had rifles, we knew a lot of things, with the carbines and advent of the RIS and RAS, we had accessories with little room.
One unit knew this and had Mr. Knight make the MRE, and now, others are re-learning and going back to what should be.
I would not buy a new gun with a carbine length rail, however you don't need to get rid of it, for while not optimal for most uses, it is not useless.
...... however you don't need to get rid of it, for while not optimal for most uses, it is not useless.
Now that's reassuring
Now that's reassuring
I still think a rifle with a carbine length rail kills things just as well as the same rifle with a longer rail. Question is how good is the shooter with what he runs? I am sure that I will own some long rail stuff someday just because.
Uh...why not? How short is your SBR? I had a 13" rail on my 11.5" barrel (when I had the PWS CQB Comp), and am going down to an 11" rail now that I'll be running a suppressor or normal flash hider.
11.5", however, I like a fixed FSB (to the tune I won't use anything else if I can help it). Part of that whole, 'keep everything the same, all of the time, whenever possible' I talked about. I don't really see a point to shaving down the FSB, sticking a longer rail system on, attaching a detachable fixed front sight, and changing the light setup on five rifles. We're talking at least a couple thousand bucks for a couple more inches of rail. I wouldn't be comfortable with a rail system that extends to the muzzle since I overhang my support-side index finger off of the front of the rail as an index point.
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