View Full Version : Need advice re: severe malfunction today
I need some input please. I have a new POF-415 that has only been fired on 3 occasions to date. The first time I fired it I had recurrent failures to feed and one severe failure to extract requiring a rod from the muzzle to push out a spent case. I notified the manufacturer who told me to no longer use Wolf ammo ( had been given a case gratis). I subsequently bought a case of brass Remington surplus military 5.56 and had similar FTF problems so changed magazines as well thinking that could be the problem after the second time shooting it. Today, the third time, had recurrent FTF and extraction problems, the worst one being with the bolt being 3/4 closed. Since I was not firing the weapon at the time, I could not tell if it was a FTF or FTE problem with a live round in the chamber or a spent one that did not extract. In any case, the bolt was completely stuck and would not budge even after I dropped the magazine. The charging handle could not be retracted. The range would not permit me to leave with a possibly loaded weapon so called a gunsmith to the range who was able to tap the bolt back far enough to eject what turned out to be a spent case, however the bolt remains completely jammed and won't budge. I have never seen or heard of a malfunction like this one. I keep the firearm meticulously clean and this occurred after shooting about 150 rounds.
Any comments, advice , possible etiologies or diagnosis would be greatly appreciated. I intend to contact the manufacturer tomorrow to arrange returning it for repair.
many thanks,
Dr. Mike
so the bolt/BCG is still stuck partially open in the receiver?
maybe having an over-pressure issue, and blew a primer, which is now wedged in there? sounds like the weapon should go back to POS for service/replacement.
Here is what I think. You have a tight chamber. In the process of you shooting you blew a primer and it is lodged in the upper receiver in between the receiver and the BCG. I have seen this happen more than enough times and had to deal with it in Iraq.
I had to completely disassemble the weapons and remove the lower receiver extension and BCG.
My diagnosis in the end was it was a bad combination of ammo and tight chamber.
Can you please elaborate more specifically on the Remington milsurp ammo? :confused:
Also, I would be very cautious when a company says not to fire Wolf ammo in their gun. Though I do not use it, you should be able to use it.
I need some input please. I have a new POF-415 that has only been fired on 3 occasions to date. The first time I fired it I had recurrent failures to feed and one severe failure to extract requiring a rod from the muzzle to push out a spent case. I notified the manufacturer who told me to no longer use Wolf ammo ( had been given a case gratis). I subsequently bought a case of brass Remington surplus military 5.56 and had similar FTF problems so changed magazines as well thinking that could be the problem after the second time shooting it. Today, the third time, had recurrent FTF and extraction problems, the worst one being with the bolt being 3/4 closed. Since I was not firing the weapon at the time, I could not tell if it was a FTF or FTE problem with a live round in the chamber or a spent one that did not extract. In any case, the bolt was completely stuck and would not budge even after I dropped the magazine. The charging handle could not be retracted. The range would not permit me to leave with a possibly loaded weapon so called a gunsmith to the range who was able to tap the bolt back far enough to eject what turned out to be a spent case, however the bolt remains completely jammed and won't budge. I have never seen or heard of a malfunction like this one. I keep the firearm meticulously clean and this occurred after shooting about 150 rounds.
Any comments, advice , possible etiologies or diagnosis would be greatly appreciated. I intend to contact the manufacturer tomorrow to arrange returning it for repair.
many thanks,
Dr. Mike
sounds like the weapon should go back to POS for service/replacement.
Freudian slip? :p
OP, when the final casing was removed you are positive it was a spent casing? Just getting all of the data to rule out that a bullet isn't wedged in there somehow.
Also, what mags were you using?
I can 99.99% guarantee there is no bullet lodged anywhere. There is something that is preventing the BCG from moving. I am almost certain that there is going to be a primer (or even worse a part of the forward assist mechanism) wedged in there.
I also doubt the mags are an issue either. He has other issues going on as well.
Freudian slip? :p
OP, when the final casing was removed you are positive it was a spent casing? Just getting all of the data to rule out that a bullet isn't wedged in there somehow.
Also, what mags were you using?
Cagemonkey
07-18-10, 19:24
I can 99.99% guarantee there is no bullet lodged anywhere. There is something that is preventing the BCG from moving. I am almost certain that there is going to be a primer (or even worse a part of the forward assist mechanism0 wedged in there.
I also doubt the mags are an issue either. He has other issues going on as well.I had a LWRC M6A2/piston upper that had a similar malfunction. It ended up being a piece if the broken firing pin retaining pin. I replaced it with a KNS solid pin.
Also, I would be very cautious when a company says not to fire Wolf ammo in their gun. Though I do not use it, you should be able to use it.
100%
your gun should cycle any ammo you putz in it. this seems to be a big cop-out disclaimer some manfers have.
Ok, being a newbie, I was not aware of the significance of other info to give you. I did notice on two occasions today blown primers. I have been shooting my entire life (not ARs) and have never seen one. I noticed by chance a piece of debris on one of my mags and saw it was a prime,r and then located the spent casing it came from. Later on, noticed a second one. The case that ultimately was removed DID appear to have a primer in it however, who knows if there was not some remnant from a prior occurrence. I was not able to separate the upper and lower receivers since the bolt is jammed midway in the breech. I was using magpul magazines and the ones that came with the rifle so I do not think it was a mag problem this time. I have also heard that Wolf ammo should be no problem and a friend of mine with the same rifle has never had a problem with any ammo put through it. What causes a primer to blow? Is it faulty ammo or something wrong with the gun or a combo of both? What can the manufacturer do to fix this problem? Ammo was purchased from Natchez, came with 3 stripper clips of 10 rounds each per box.
To the fella that this happened to in Iraq, I feel for you because the first thing I thought of when this happened to me is how deep **** one would be in if this happened in battle!! Hope you had a sidearm with you !!
Any more input you can give me will really be appreciated.
many thanks
Mike
a chamber reaming is probably your answer
to get the thing disassembled, you might have to go in through the RE. unscrew the castle nut, pull the RE, and see if you can work the carrier lose from behind. try looking up the magwell first, though.. if you're lucky, you might see the primer wedged in right there and pick it out.
The problem is generally caused by a tight chamber. The only way to know for sure is to check the chamber with a chamber checker from Ned Christiansen. Fortunately when it happened with our Bushamsters it was on the one-way range.
There is always a chance it could be the ammo. To rule it out (once you get it cleared) is to buy known reliable ammo and shoot it and see what happens.
My feeling tells me that the chamber is tight and is not a real 5.56.
Ok, being a newbie, I was not aware of the significance of other info to give you. I did notice on two occasions today blown primers. I have been shooting my entire life (not ARs) and have never seen one. I noticed by chance a piece of debris on one of my mags and saw it was a prime,r and then located the spent casing it came from. Later on, noticed a second one. The case that ultimately was removed DID appear to have a primer in it however, who knows if there was not some remnant from a prior occurrence. I was not able to separate the upper and lower receivers since the bolt is jammed midway in the breech. I was using magpul magazines and the ones that came with the rifle so I do not think it was a mag problem this time. I have also heard that Wolf ammo should be no problem and a friend of mine with the same rifle has never had a problem with any ammo put through it. What causes a primer to blow? Is it faulty ammo or something wrong with the gun or a combo of both? What can the manufacturer do to fix this problem? Ammo was purchased from Natchez, came with 3 stripper clips of 10 rounds each per box.
To the fella that this happened to in Iraq, I feel for you because the first thing I thought of when this happened to me is how deep **** one would be in if this happened in battle!! Hope you had a sidearm with you !!
Any more input you can give me will really be appreciated.
many thanks
Mike
You can take the upper and lower apart by pounding out the pins and sliding it forward. I've had other problems that prevented the BCG from heading home and this is what I had to do.
After the spring tension on BCG is relieved, use a brass rod down the barrel to knock it back and hopefully out.
I'm guessing there will be scratches in the nickel from the primer or some garbage.
No such luck in magwell. I agree that this weapon should be able to cycle any ammo put into it. Will there only be premium ammo available always? I take it you feel this is a manufacturer's problem?
I really feel for our troops who may be confronted with a problem of this magnitude at a dire time. One would truly be SOL
Mike
As I mentioned earlier, when I first shot this rifle, I had a severe failure to extract which occurred with the Wolf ammo. I needed to push out the spent case from the muzzle end. Now with different (brass) ammo, I have blown primers and a jammed bolt. Something is just not right with this picture and it seems too easy just to blame it on cheap ammo.
While using cheap ammo should be ok, in every gun, I agree from a manufacturers stand-point to void warranties over crappy ammo. Why should they have to fix the rifle because someone is cheap? I agree this particular problem sounds like a tight chamber, but to say my rifle has to shoot any junk i throw into it, is just as much a cop out as a manuf. saying it will void your warranty. Cheap ammo can and will have an impact on a rifles parts, and cause it to function less reliably. It may run in it, but the long term effects can be worse than saving a buck or two. I'm not saying you have to run match grade stuff in your gun, but also scraping the bottom of the barrel consistently is not a good idea either.
From their website.. Manufacturer's of Quality, "Regulated Short Stroke Gas Piston Weapon Systems" since 2004. The first M16/AR15 type and AR10 type weapon systems offered on the market being piston driven. All of our weapon system operate with and without the need of Lube, using C.R.O.S. (Corrosion Resistant Operating System). We offer "Relentless Reliability" on all our weapon systems. We believe in "Quality over Quantity".
Call POF and ask to have it returned and inspected. If they send it back as serviceable, ask for your money back if it happens again.
evolixsurf
07-18-10, 22:08
The best advice we can give you right now is to:
1. take the gun to a gun smith(if you want to pay for the fix) or preferably straight back to the manufacturer for a check up(likely free -shipping).
2. Never buy the cheapest ammo, never buy remington ammo.... The only military surplus ammo i would buy is lake city cased.
Ammo isn't necessarily the issue here. It should be able to digest Wolf as well as Remington or anything else.
The issue is that the chamber is tight. If that isn't the case I would be really surprised. Unfortunately since he doesn't have access to a chamber gage all he can do is send it back and rely on what POF tells him.
Most manufacturers probably won't come out and say "our chambers or barrels are out of spec."
I have steel cased Hornady 5.56 ammo and it works like I champ thus far in all of my AR's. The SBR, Noveske, my wifes carbine and my Arnold Dew PD15 piston gun. Blaming the ammo is the easy way.
I WOULD NOT LET A LOCAL "GUNSMITH" DICK WITH THIS WEAPON AND POSSIBLY CAUSE MORE PROBLEMS. CONTACT POF DIRECTLY AND ARRANGE TO SEND IT BACK. PUT IN WRITING WHAT WAS HAPPENING AND LET THEM KNOW WHAT YOU SUSPECT THE ISSUE IS.
The best advice we can give you right now is to:
1. take the gun to a gun smith(if you want to pay for the fix) or preferably straight back to the manufacturer for a check up(likely free -shipping).
2. Never buy the cheapest ammo, never buy remington ammo.... The only military surplus ammo i would buy is lake city cased.
a chamber reaming is probably your answer
The POF rifles have some sort of non-chrome silver coating inside the chamber and barrel, and inside the receiver, so the rechambering needs to be done by POF and the chamber re-coated by POF.
Send it back and let us know how their CS treats you.
Grease Monkey
07-19-10, 16:54
Send it back and let us know how their CS treats you.
I like this idea! Then sell it.
I have seen more than one POF with this type of concern at the range. Asked one guy and he says to me, " It does this whenever it heats up". I say, "this doesn't concern you?" "Nah", he replies, " I just bought it for fun." " Have you tried different mags and/or ammo"? "Yeah, tried everything I can think of. It must be a characteristic of the gun." No shit. Then he says, "what kind of rifle you got? it hasn't stopped once." The kind POF said they designed to be "more reliable" than.
Facepuncher
07-19-10, 17:46
Don't let them tell you that you can't shoot wolf out of it. If your rifle, no matter what it costs, won't eat tons of wolf happily then it is broken.
For range use it doesn't make sense to shoot expensive ammo, and it definitely shouldn't be a requirement. That's just a cop-out for what is obviously a manufacturing mistake.
4) Contact The Manufacturer or Dealer First – Internet forums have a large global audience and unsubstantiated or ill-informed comments will affect the livelihoods of a lot of hard working people in the industry. If you have an issue with a manufacturer or dealer that you would like to resolve, we ask that your first contact them to resolve it.
4) Contact The Manufacturer or Dealer First – Internet forums have a large global audience and unsubstantiated or ill-informed comments will affect the livelihoods of a lot of hard working people in the industry. If you have an issue with a manufacturer or dealer that you would like to resolve, we ask that your first contact them to resolve it.
that rule only applies to manfers and dealers we don't all hate. :secret:
The best advice we can give you right now is to:
1. take the gun to a gun smith(if you want to pay for the fix) or preferably straight back to the manufacturer for a check up(likely free -shipping).
2. Never buy the cheapest ammo, never buy remington ammo.... The only military surplus ammo i would buy is lake city cased.
The rifle should run on Wolf, UMC, or Black Hills..
I would do as the others suggested and ship it back to them(POF) to fix as it should not be on your dime to fix. Once you get it back run it to see how it does. If all is well at that point I would then sell it.
thopkins22
07-21-10, 15:57
While using cheap ammo should be ok, in every gun, I agree from a manufacturers stand-point to void warranties over crappy ammo. Why should they have to fix the rifle because someone is cheap? I agree this particular problem sounds like a tight chamber, but to say my rifle has to shoot any junk i throw into it, is just as much a cop out as a manuf. saying it will void your warranty. Cheap ammo can and will have an impact on a rifles parts, and cause it to function less reliably. It may run in it, but the long term effects can be worse than saving a buck or two. I'm not saying you have to run match grade stuff in your gun, but also scraping the bottom of the barrel consistently is not a good idea either.
What long term effects? As in he might notice as more wear than normal on his extractor after ten or twelve thousand rounds? He can completely rebuild his bolt for less than thirty dollars then...which he should do anyway.
I'm unaware of any other long term effects, not even hypothetical ones.
I just finished reading the article in the new Shotgun News about the POF SBR. I came away feeling that Pete Kokalis has lost it.
No where in the article did it state that Wolf or other steel cased ammo shouldn't be used. His last caveat was "Utterly Reliable" or some garbage.
I encourage you to contact POF and make them address the issue. Considering what they are charging for these guns they should work flawlessly out of the box. I am very interested in hearing what their response is.
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