Dealing with Trijicon reticle washout

[Crow Hunter]

Yet another post in the Crow Hunter quest for the "perfect" optic. :blink:

I posted alot of this in another thread, but since it is a somewhat different topic than the thread it was posted in, I figured I would ask it directly to get more expert opinions.

For those of you who have Trijicon products, be they Accupoints/ACOGs, how do you deal with/rectify reticle washout?

I have an Accupoint mounted on my 6920. It is absolutely fabulous out of doors, indoors/nighttime not so much.

I have not trained or used reflex sights, but from what I understand the theory is to focus on the target and place the reticle/dot on the target and bang. For this to work properly, the reticle will need to stand out in some way so that you don't have to focus on it.

When using the Accupoint, I have problems when I am using a light. It just isn't bright enough for me to "find" without looking for it. I feel like I am really slowing down when I am constantly swapping focus between my right eye and then both eyes. I haven't timed it so I don't know for sure, but in flashing the light on/off wandering through the house aiming at various household items (Evil light switches and lamp shades) I feel like I am spending alot of time trying to find the triangle. However, if I focus on the reticle like a front sight, I don't readily lose it, but in focusing on the reticle instead of the target, I get a double image.

Is it just me?

Is there a way to rectify this through training/experience/doodads?

I am going to get a RDS to do some comparative testing but I wanted to make sure that I was doing/testing correctly.

[JSantoro]

You need to train your eye a bit, sounds like. For clarity, are you doing this with the optic ramped up to full magnification, or not? Sounds like you are, but...

Practice with tape over the objective lens. It'll force your non-occluded eye to be the primary, and you will still see the reticle "float" over the target.

[Crow Hunter]

I am running it at 1X.

I'll have to try it with the tape.

I only seem to have the problem behind a flashlight.

If do the same thing with the lights on or outside in the daylight, I don't seem to have a problem with it, it glows brightly and I look at the target and put the glowing green triangle on the target. I don't really notice the scope at all.

When it "washes out" I have to almost bring it up into my vision and block the target, then bring it back down or I have to break my "lock on" the target, find the post, put it on the target, then shift focus back on the target.

I am sure it is something I am doing wrong or I am thinking it should be done differently.

I only have experience with scopes on hunting rifles. When I use them, I just focus on the reticle and the target at the same time but I ignore all inputs from my left eye and just look at the scope with my dominant eye.

Thank you for taking the time to help. I try to read all your posts here and on LF.net, you have some true optics wisdom.
:thank_you2:

[JSantoro]

Some. Mostly I just flail about wildly, and shit turns out okay in spite of myself. The truly tricky part is separating wheat from chaff: what's the optic capable of doing, what's the shooter's eye doing, what's the shoter's brain doing, and how are any of the three maybe interfering with the whole? The eye tends to be the biggest variable, because optics are pretty well-defined and most folks, let's face it, aren't particularly uique in therms of neural pathways.

For example, I have yet to have any green reticle wash out on me. Ever. Not saying that you're not seeing what you're seeing, just stating facts; makes it hard to puzzle out, someitmes.

Anyhow...

Accupoint is fiber-optic illumination, only, therefore your reticle won't show as strongly in an unlit room in which you are directing a beam of light past the muzzle. Not enough light splashing back to fed the FO. It needs ambient light for the reticle to glow enough. Test this by making a positive effort to note the effect in a small room vs. larger room. I'd wager that you may notice the reticle better in a small room where it's more likely for flashlight reflections to reach the FO.

Aside: how open is the FO when you do your armed-Billy-Idol dancing with yourself?

The rest sounds like training scars, of a sort. Your brain is already primed to get "sucked into the tube," as we call it. That's part of what is causing your "Camera 1/Camera 2" changeovers. It's used to diving straight to the innards of a magnified optic and living there, and you're now fighting to get it to use both eyes more or less equally. Occluded-view practice will help with that, make it a less foreign concept within your dome.

Shoot the thing.
-Start normal, both eyes open and working to work together to use the optic in the correct manner.
-Change target, tape optic, repeat. Do double the above course of fire, as chosen by you. Groups will spread: normal, don't sweat it, just concentrate on keeping both eyes going and working your fundamentals.
-Change target, remove tape. Do first course of fire. You should definitely see shrink just by going back to full viewing capability, and may or may not notice it being easier to maintain a sight picture through the optic.

It doesn't happen instantly, but it doesn't usually take particularly long , and you won't lose anything on whatever technique you use on your hunting rifles. You're just trying to get your eyes to do more than they have, before.

Also, believe it or not, take up juggling. I shit you not. Helps your near-focus visual acuity and makes you use your eye muscles to alter focus to the sides. The hand-eye coordination is a bonus.

[Crow Hunter]

Awesome response, thank you.

I will do some dry manipulations in the house tonight and try some live shooting this weekend. (More questions from my wife about why I am walking through the house turning off lights with a rifle.:))

The Accupoint actually has tritium illumination too.

It never goes completely black, it is still there, and it is green, but it doesn't just jump out at me like it does when it is lit with the FO outside.

I do notice a big difference if I just cant the rifle towards the wall in the hallway, it lights back up from the splash of the surefire.

I have the cover completely open when I am dancing. :D (Good one by the way)

The "Camera 1/Camera 2 changeover" is a perfect description of what I feel is happening. I hadn't really thought about it as "getting sucked into the tube." I used to juggle a little, maybe I still can. That really should get my wife asking questions...:jester:

Thanks alot for your help, I have a homework assignment.

[JSantoro]

The Accupoint actually has tritium illumination too.

Yep, I boned that up.

One you go lights-out, give yourself 5-10 min or so to let your eyes adjust to dark, start dancing, note any differences between waiting and not waiting.

[bp7178]

What model Accupoint and which reticle is in it?

I'm considering getting a TR24 with the green triangle.

[Crow Hunter]

What model Accupoint and which reticle is in it?

I'm considering getting a TR24 with the green triangle.

The same.

Please don't take anything that I am saying disparaging the TR24. I believe that it is a software problem rather than a hardware problem.

Espcially based on JSantoro's well phrased responses. (My wife loves Billy Idol by the way :D)

However, I am getting a Aimpont M4s for comparison, so who knows, the TR24 might come up for sale. :secret:

[armakraut]

You might want to consider trading it for a TR24G with a #4 german reticle. That would stand out very good against a light. Either that or the accupoints come with lens caps, use it with the front lens cap down in low light indoors.

[Crow Hunter]

Thanks JSantoro, I did some dancing last night with a rigged up front cap.:jester:

I still need alot more training, and I need to do some live fire training but I did notice a big improvement. Doing some dancing with the cap covering the objective helped alot with the Camera1/Camera2 issue. I also had less washout after letting my eyes adjust. I still got some "washout",however it seemed to be directly related to the target color. All of the walls in my house are taupe and all the trim is white, when I would look at any of those objects, the triangle was hard to find at times. When I looked at darker colored objects like the TV or the fireplace the triangle was easy to spot. (Not as much light reflecting back into the objective lense?)

Dropping the cap and using it like a OEG completely eliminated the washout however. The green triangle was just floating very visibly right on the target (in my left eye) irrespective of the amount of ambient light. It worked great at 1x and 4x.

That worked so well, now I am thinking that maybe I should have just gone with a TA33 with the green horseshoe reticle and kept the objective lense covered in the house....

Dammit.:blink: